A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

andres3 · September 2017

thecardoc3 said:

andres3 said:
One thing I can blame them for is replacing the car battery without replacing the corroding cables/wires, connections, ect..
Yeah, shame on them for trying to save you money by not replacing something that although not perfect was still usable at the time......

"time" being less than 3 months until total stranding tow-truck calling failure? I'd call that imminent failure, and they should have at least recommended the "preventative" fixes.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

andres3 said:

"time" being less than 3 months until total stranding tow-truck calling failure? I'd call that imminent failure, and they should have at least recommended the "preventative" fixes.

Then someone else turns around and tells you that you didn't really need "whatever" they were recommending and are just trying to get more money out of you...

Maybe you never noticed but they would be wrong in the publics eye's if they recommended something like the cables (I can show you numerous posts to back that up) and they also got to be wrong if the didn't (and I can show you numerous posts to back that up too).

Mr_Shiftright · September 2017

It's a question of trust. I trust my shop(s) and generally do what they recommend. Would I trust a new car dealer---probably not. Or...."trust but verify", more likely.

Often I ask for evidence. "You need brakes" OK, what are the measurements? "Your ball joints are worn" OK, what did the dial indicator say?

On some age-related items (timing belt, serpentine, spark plugs, cables etc), I check on what the manufacturer says.

I appreciate a conscientious technician pointing things out to me. What I don't like are obvious upsells, as if I were stupid.

guitarzan · September 2017

andres3 said:
Like clockwork every 3 to 4 months smoething else would go wrong.

I expected the mechanic to be able to predict what would go wrong soon thereafter and fix it once and for all, but that would probably require replacing the entire car with a Toyota.

This is life with my 2000 Celica. This car was made in Japan. The motor and tranny, I am sure they will outlast my personal lifespan. But the rest of the car, it all follows with the advice here about planned obsolescence and end of life at X years or Y miles. The Toyotas and Hondas will in fact go more years before it starts, but once it starts it is the same waterfall of problems.

If the Lexus vehicles were not all covered in plastic underneath, I would also swear that the Japanese do not know the meaning of "salt" or "snow." But apparently they know, they just charge to the bone for that protection.

I have learned that this is all a Total Cost of Ownership game, and to stop trying to directly compare the reliability of different brands. The Hondas and Toyotas cost more up front. The Chevys and Fords are heavily discounted up front, but will take repairs in year 3. The TCO for each owner may not differ much at all. So I guess pick the one that impresses the girls the most and do not worry about the rest.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
I appreciate a conscientious technician pointing things out to me. What I don't like are obvious upsells, as if I were stupid.

How many different opinions do you think we would get on whether battery cables needed to be replaced if we used a simple photograph and the description that there are no obvious symptoms at that time? There would be of course be two basic opinions, one group responding with yes they are needed and the other group would be opposed.

From there ask the groups if they felt the shop was being dishonest if they went against their opinion and be ready to collect data from which you wouldn't be able to make an informed decision. VBG...

Mr_Shiftright · September 2017

A voltage drop test should tell you all you need to know, if there were no obvious corrosion.

andres3 · September 2017

guitarzan said:

andres3 said:
Like clockwork every 3 to 4 months smoething else would go wrong.

I expected the mechanic to be able to predict what would go wrong soon thereafter and fix it once and for all, but that would probably require replacing the entire car with a Toyota.
This is life with my 2000 Celica. This car was made in Japan. The motor and tranny, I am sure they will outlast my personal lifespan. But the rest of the car, it all follows with the advice here about planned obsolescence and end of life at X years or Y miles. The Toyotas and Hondas will in fact go more years before it starts, but once it starts it is the same waterfall of problems.

If the Lexus vehicles were not all covered in plastic underneath, I would also swear that the Japanese do not know the meaning of "salt" or "snow." But apparently they know, they just charge to the bone for that protection.

I have learned that this is all a Total Cost of Ownership game, and to stop trying to directly compare the reliability of different brands. The Hondas and Toyotas cost more up front. The Chevys and Fords are heavily discounted up front, but will take repairs in year 3. The TCO for each owner may not differ much at all. So I guess pick the one that impresses the girls the most and do not worry about the rest.

TCO being the same across the board? If only that were true! Remember, the clunkers are not worth anything after 3 years, but the good cars retain their resale value because they are good.

I've never had a cheaper car to run than a 10-year old high mileage Honda. Part of that is almost no depreciation.

xwesx · September 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
It's a question of trust. I trust my shop(s) and generally do what they recommend. Would I trust a new car dealer---probably not. Or...."trust but verify", more likely.

Often I ask for evidence. "You need brakes" OK, what are the measurements? "Your ball joints are worn" OK, what did the dial indicator say?

On some age-related items (timing belt, serpentine, spark plugs, cables etc), I check on what the manufacturer says.

I appreciate a conscientious technician pointing things out to me. What I don't like are obvious upsells, as if I were stupid.

Yes; I definitely agree with that.

When I had the Q7 down in Anchorage this past May, the dealer told me that the brake pads needed immediate replacement, and asked if I wanted to replace them. I asked how much.... $1,200 (all four). So, I inquired as to why they thought that it was immediate if the electronic warning gizmos had not blipped on yet, and he said that was a last resort. Okay (agreed on that), but how much pad is left when that flashes? What percent of total pad? He said 5-10%, but couldn't remember... he could ask the tech.

Overall, I wasn't worried, as 5-10% would last another 1,000 miles or more, so I had time. As such, I thanked him for the notification and declined the service. I did appreciate the notification, though I can also see how other people might have jumped on that in fear due to their own ignorance.

I ended up replacing them all on the 7/4 weekend with my other maintenance activities. All told, about $130 (IIRC) for the pads and about 45 minutes of time. The real challenge was that these pads have electronic sensors rather than squealers, and the new pads didn't come with sensors included. As these are not intended to be reusable, I ended up having to install the old ones, which were torn up after separating from the old pads, so I just wired them up to complete the connection (normal closed loop on these = good to the computer) and left them zipped to the steering knuckles.

Afterward, I bought a set of replacement sensors, which I will install in the next couple weeks when I have the wheels off for seasonal change out.

andres3 · September 2017

xwesx said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
It's a question of trust. I trust my shop(s) and generally do what they recommend. Would I trust a new car dealer---probably not. Or...."trust but verify", more likely.

Often I ask for evidence. "You need brakes" OK, what are the measurements? "Your ball joints are worn" OK, what did the dial indicator say?

On some age-related items (timing belt, serpentine, spark plugs, cables etc), I check on what the manufacturer says.

I appreciate a conscientious technician pointing things out to me. What I don't like are obvious upsells, as if I were stupid.
Yes; I definitely agree with that.

When I had the Q7 down in Anchorage this past May, the dealer told me that the brake pads needed immediate replacement, and asked if I wanted to replace them. I asked how much.... $1,200 (all four). So, I inquired as to why they thought that it was immediate if the electronic warning gizmos had not blipped on yet, and he said that was a last resort. Okay (agreed on that), but how much pad is left when that flashes? What percent of total pad? He said 5-10%, but couldn't remember... he could ask the tech.

Overall, I wasn't worried, as 5-10% would last another 1,000 miles or more, so I had time. As such, I thanked him for the notification and declined the service. I did appreciate the notification, though I can also see how other people might have jumped on that in fear due to their own ignorance.

I ended up replacing them all on the 7/4 weekend with my other maintenance activities. All told, about $130 (IIRC) for the pads and about 45 minutes of time. The real challenge was that these pads have electronic sensors rather than squealers, and the new pads didn't come with sensors included. As these are not intended to be reusable, I ended up having to install the old ones, which were torn up after separating from the old pads, so I just wired them up to complete the connection (normal closed loop on these = good to the computer) and left them zipped to the steering knuckles.

Afterward, I bought a set of replacement sensors, which I will install in the next couple weeks when I have the wheels off for seasonal change out.

That is Audi being greedy. I'm extremely annoyed I have to buy new sensors every single time I change my brake pads, but even worse, they don't sell the sensors with the Audi OEM pad, so you do have to buy them separately, for additional money, but you need them EVERY TIME! Why is it not a kit then sold all together?????~

Lastly, brake sensors don't seem to work all that great if you abuse the pad and they wear unevenly. However, in Audi, I believe they are supposed to trigger the idiot light at 2 mm, but as I said, not the most accurate sensor ever made.

xwesx · September 2017

Hah! Thanks for the info! I will say, the shop was not wrong in stating that the pads were nearly shot. Of the four, only one of the sensor triggers was not warn enough to expose the wire. And, it's not a big wire. Much farther and it would have tripped. I drove the car another six weeks after their dire warning, though, which was probably 2,000 miles, and no issues. I didn't have much left on any of them, though; three millimeters, perhaps? Quite evenly worn.

Also, these pads are pretty soft. I'm not sure if those were the originals, but I usually get over 100,000 miles out of mine, and I have never noticed the buildup of brake dust on my wheels (on any car). Not true for the Q7. Dust builds up quickly on this one! It is probably part heavy vehicle and part soft pads, but the car does stop very well for its size (at least, that's what my butt tells me).

I ended up buying a Bosch OE replacement (semi-metallic), and the pads for the rear did come with new sensors installed. It was only the fronts (ironically, exact same model of pads) that did not have them. I imagine there must be a sensor difference in years or something where it is beneficial to the manufacturer to not include them. Not a huge deal now that I know. I think the sensors were maybe $15-20 extra for the pair.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
A voltage drop test should tell you all you need to know, if there were no obvious corrosion.

So you have the vehicle today and volt drop test the cables during cranking and they pass the test at less than .8v. Three months from now the vehicle doesn't start and the same test shows an excessive voltage drop on the negative cable. That's just a car doing what they do, break whenever they darn well want to.

guitarzan · September 2017

andres3 said:
TCO being the same across the board? If only that were true! Remember, the clunkers are not worth anything after 3 years, but the good cars retain their resale value because they are good.

I've never had a cheaper car to run than a 10-year old high mileage Honda. Part of that is almost no depreciation.

Small cars are out. Do you know the value of a small older car on the market? Zilcho. no one wants it. It doesn't matter if it is a Honda or Toyota.

Cars are like guitars. The "in" ones maintain their value, which is really trucks. The rest are hit or miss.

andres3 said:

I've never had a cheaper car to run than a 10-year old high mileage Honda. Part of that is almost no depreciation.

Year 10 is when the problems start. If you Buy a new Honda and sell it in year 10, after having done absolutely nothing to it, it may be the cheapest car to own. If you keep it as the planned obsolescence kicks in from year 10-20, your entire TCO advantage will go out the window. Of course if you replace it with a new one, you will be adding in the premium that you pay for a Honda into the TCO.

You could have gotten a much better TCO by purchasing certain domestic car used and fixing them up.

TCO = a game with no clearly defined winner.

roadburner · September 2017

guitarzan said:

TCO = a game with no clearly defined winner.

I tend to buy CPO BMWs, pay them off in a couple of years, and then drive them of another 7-8 years minimum. I've never figured TCO, but I had an "expert" tell me that leasing a new BMW every three years was the cheapest way to own one. I crunched the numbers and it turns out buying my 2004 X3 and driving it for 12 years was actually $32,000 less expensive than a perpetual $550/month lease- and yes, I did figure in depreciation.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2017

thecardoc3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
A voltage drop test should tell you all you need to know, if there were no obvious corrosion.
So you have the vehicle today and volt drop test the cables during cranking and they pass the test at less than .8v. Three months from now the vehicle doesn't start and the same test shows an excessive voltage drop on the negative cable. That's just a car doing what they do, break whenever they darn well want to.

Well I don't think Snap-On makes a crystal ball!

Mr_Shiftright · September 2017

roadburner said:

guitarzan said:

TCO = a game with no clearly defined winner.
I tend to buy CPO BMWs, pay them off in a couple of years, and then drive them of another 7-8 years minimum. I've never figured TCO, but I had an "expert" tell me that leasing a new BMW every three years was the cheapest way to own one. I crunched the numbers and it turns out buying my 2004 X3 and driving it for 12 years was actually 32,000 less expensive than a perpetual $550/month lease- and yes, I did figure in depreciation.

Well after a certain age, and presuming the car doesn't fall apart, the TCO is all gravy for you. There comes a point when an old car depreciates....what?....maybe $1,000 a year if that, and you aren't going to beat that with lease payments.

But there's no telling. A 12 year old BWM for some folks could be hell on earth, too. The trick is to buy them new, or near new, take really great care of them, and if misfortune strikes anyway, to know when to bail out.

Many folks aren't as pragmatic as you are. They just want a new car, TCO be damned.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

It's Over.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-mechanics-strike-settled-20170917-story.html

This should send repercussions through the whole country.

Michaell · September 2017

thecardoc3 said:
It's Over.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-mechanics-strike-settled-20170917-story.html

This should send repercussions through the whole country.

Key word there is "should". Are there any similar unions in other parts of the country?

Mr_Shiftright · September 2017

Private sector unions are almost dead in the USA. I think union membership is down to around 6% of all private sector workers in America--something like that.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

Michaell said:

Key word there is "should". Are there any similar unions in other parts of the country?

The union agreement will cause a trickle down to other dealers with one of the biggest issues of getting paid correctly for the demands of the job especially with regards to warranty work. That's what the "forty hours" is all about. Currently if you would show up at the dealer with some random issue the tech only get's paid for checking it out if the diagnostics lead to a repair and then that is a whopping .2 (twelve minutes) regardless of how much time is actually spent.

Another common issue would be for a dealer to overstaff so that there are more than enough people on hand to take care of the busiest times but that means that techs often end up standing around with nothing to do during the slow times. When it's slow and the tech isn't assigned to a repair, they don't get paid for that time. For the dealers it was a win/win when they have the staff to really put out a lot of work when it is busy, but it wasn't costing them anything if nothing showed up on a given day. Now they will have to pay the techs when they fail to keep them busy.

There is a lot more to this, but this is the start. Other dealer's will have to pony up and match this or lose their techs which is why this goes beyond the union.

andres3 · September 2017

guitarzan said:

andres3 said:
TCO being the same across the board? If only that were true! Remember, the clunkers are not worth anything after 3 years, but the good cars retain their resale value because they are good.

I've never had a cheaper car to run than a 10-year old high mileage Honda. Part of that is almost no depreciation.
Small cars are out. Do you know the value of a small older car on the market? Zilcho. no one wants it. It doesn't matter if it is a Honda or Toyota.

Cars are like guitars. The "in" ones maintain their value, which is really trucks. The rest are hit or miss.
andres3 said:

I've never had a cheaper car to run than a 10-year old high mileage Honda. Part of that is almost no depreciation.
Year 10 is when the problems start. If you Buy a new Honda and sell it in year 10, after having done absolutely nothing to it, it may be the cheapest car to own. If you keep it as the planned obsolescence kicks in from year 10-20, your entire TCO advantage will go out the window. Of course if you replace it with a new one, you will be adding in the premium that you pay for a Honda into the TCO.

You could have gotten a much better TCO by purchasing certain domestic car used and fixing them up.

TCO = a game with no clearly defined winner.

I think you misunderstood me, and I think we still agree to disagree. We owned a 10 year old Honda, bought at 10 years old in 2002 ('92 model with 165,000 miles or so). We only kept it for 2 years (years 10-12), but got it close to 200K miles in that time. While it wasn't perfect, it didn't suddenly fall apart either. Things that broke or needed replacement were lower cost items. Thanks to low depreciation, we sold it for only $800 + fees/taxes less than we paid for it, while putting in, I'd say around $1,000 or so in "unexpected and expected maintenance." That's some cheap ownership for the amount of miles we drove!

Remember, tow trucks and down time are expensive too. Some people value their own time highly, and dealing with constant breakdown on a less reliable car adds to the "time" expense of ownership, even if the parts and labor are somehow cheap (which it almost never is). Tow trucks are expensive too.

0patience · September 2017

thecardoc3 said:

Key word there is "should". Are there any similar unions in other parts of the country?
The union agreement will cause a trickle down to other dealers with one of the biggest issues of getting paid correctly for the demands of the job especially with regards to warranty work. That's what the "forty hours" is all about. Currently if you would show up at the dealer with some random issue the tech only get's paid for checking it out if the diagnostics lead to a repair and then that is a whopping .2 (twelve minutes) regardless of how much time is actually spent. Another common issue would be for a dealer to overstaff so that there are more than enough people on hand to take care of the busiest times but that means that techs often end up standing around with nothing to do during the slow times. When it's slow and the tech isn't assigned to a repair, they don't get paid for that time. For the dealers it was a win/win when they have the staff to really put out a lot of work when it is busy, but it wasn't costing them anything if nothing showed up on a given day. Now they will have to pay the techs when they fail to keep them busy. There is a lot more to this, but this is the start. Other dealer's will have to pony up and match this or lose their techs which is why this goes beyond the union.

This type of thing is why I work fleet.
But the only reason something like this is even working right now is, this industry as a whole, heavy equipment and automotive mechanics, is because our industry is becoming a dying breed. There is not an influx of techs, as fast as us old techs are retiring.

We have had tech positions open that have taken 6 months to fill. It wasn't mostly a money issue, as it was getting qualified applicants.
One position was more or less filled with an apprentice, because he was good.

As time moves forward and technology increases, the demand for qualified techs will increase. In today's market, if I were to not have a job at the end of the day, I'd be at work somewhere else tomorrow morning.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2017

I wonder if, as technology marches on, the automotive technician will become more like the computer tech or IT tech, thus attracting young talent to a more "respectable" career?

thecardoc3 · September 2017

The talent won't come unless the career is perceived to be respectable first. There are still a lot of issues that will have to be dealt with to make that happen.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

0patience said:

This type of thing is why I work fleet. But the only reason something like this is even working right now is, this industry as a whole, heavy equipment and automotive mechanics, is because our industry is becoming a dying breed. There is not an influx of techs, as fast as us old techs are retiring.

Part of the reason for that is that the average standard of living for technicians is too low.

0patience said:

We have had tech positions open that have taken 6 months to fill. It wasn't mostly a money issue, as it was getting qualified applicants.

The usual entry level wage for an apprentice technician who has graduated form a tech school is less than what that same person could make at McDonalds.

0patience said:

One position was more or less filled with an apprentice, because he was good.

Ten years from now if he works and studies hard he could be a decent journeyman, it will take another ten after that for him to become the master technician everyone is always looking for. But even then the learning never stops, for a technician there is no finish line to the need to learn something new.

0patience said:

As time moves forward and technology increases, the demand for qualified techs will increase. In today's market, if I were to not have a job at the end of the day, I'd be at work somewhere else tomorrow morning.

Ditto, that is one thing we do have, we could get a job anywhere in a heartbeat but what good is a job when what today's techs really need is a career?

0patience · September 2017

thecardoc3 said:

Part of the reason for that is that the average standard of living for technicians is too low.

This is where heavy equipment/truck techs and automotive differ.
The pay scale for heavy is considerably more than automotive.

thecardoc3 said:

The usual entry level wage for an apprentice technician who has graduated form a tech school is less than what that same person could make at McDonalds.

Again, this is where automotive and HD differ.
And pay scales for HD can be more for an apprentice who has an associate in diesel technology.

As for trade schools, I don't put a lot credence in them.
They need to spend more time on the basics, teaching techs how everything works, so they will better understand why it isn't working. Most trade schools lack that.

thecardoc3e said:

Ten years from now if he works and studies hard he could be a decent journeyman, it will take another ten after that for him to become the master technician everyone is always looking for. But even then the learning never stops, for a technician there is no finish line to the need to learn something new.

No question about it. The learning NEVER stops. And technology moving as fast as it is, you have to keep up or get left behind.
I tell young techs that if you are good at what you do, you can go anywhere and make good wages.
It is the techs who think they deserve a good wage, because how long they've been doing it, without proving themselves, that I don't think they will make it.

thecardoc3 said:

Ditto, that is one thing we do have, we could get a job anywhere in a heartbeat but what good is a job when what today's techs really need is a career?

In the last 30 years, I've worked at 2 places.
The first one, I was 23 and with in a couple years, handled the heavy truck repairs and a few years after that, became lead, then went to heavy equipment and by the time I was 30, was lead.
Second job, I handle 150+ pieces of equipment and vehicles as a field tech.
20+ years on this one and I still am happy with it.

I've worked marine (fishing vessels), automotive (sorry, but hated flat rate) and heavy.
I prefer heavy, but still have light fleet I'm responsible for, so I have to keep up.
The young guys coming into the industry first need to learn the basics, then they need to learn humility.
Once they have learned both, they can be great at what they do.
I tell people, if I knew everything, I wouldn't be a mechanic and the day I know everything, I better retire, because I will be too arrogant to work with anyone.

Wow, that was long winded. LOL!

Michaell · September 2017

0patience said:

thecardoc3 said:

Part of the reason for that is that the average standard of living for technicians is too low.
This is where heavy equipment/truck techs and automotive differ.
The pay scale for heavy is considerably more than automotive.
thecardoc3 said:

The usual entry level wage for an apprentice technician who has graduated form a tech school is less than what that same person could make at McDonalds.
Again, this is where automotive and HD differ.
And pay scales for HD can be more for an apprentice who has an associate in diesel technology.

As for trade schools, I don't put a lot credence in them.
They need to spend more time on the basics, teaching techs how everything works, so they will better understand why it isn't working. Most trade schools lack that.
thecardoc3e said:

Ten years from now if he works and studies hard he could be a decent journeyman, it will take another ten after that for him to become the master technician everyone is always looking for. But even then the learning never stops, for a technician there is no finish line to the need to learn something new.
No question about it. The learning NEVER stops. And technology moving as fast as it is, you have to keep up or get left behind.
I tell young techs that if you are good at what you do, you can go anywhere and make good wages.
It is the techs who think they deserve a good wage, because how long they've been doing it, without proving themselves, that I don't think they will make it.
thecardoc3 said:

Ditto, that is one thing we do have, we could get a job anywhere in a heartbeat but what good is a job when what today's techs really need is a career?
In the last 30 years, I've worked at 2 places.
The first one, I was 23 and with in a couple years, handled the heavy truck repairs and a few years after that, became lead, then went to heavy equipment and by the time I was 30, was lead.
Second job, I handle 150+ pieces of equipment and vehicles as a field tech.
20+ years on this one and I still am happy with it.

I've worked marine (fishing vessels), automotive (sorry, but hated flat rate) and heavy.
I prefer heavy, but still have light fleet I'm responsible for, so I have to keep up.
The young guys coming into the industry first need to learn the basics, then they need to learn humility.
Once they have learned both, they can be great at what they do.
I tell people, if I knew everything, I wouldn't be a mechanic and the day I know everything, I better retire, because I will be too arrogant to work with anyone.

Wow, that was long winded. LOL!

Well thought out commentary, @0patience

My son's best friend works as a heavy duty mechanic for a striping company. Pretty decent wages, but long hours (I think he's on call if something happens to one of the trucks).

Mr_Shiftright · September 2017

I bet there is a fair amount of pressure working on heavy equipment. Downtime is lost money.

Michaell · September 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
I bet there is a fair amount of pressure working on heavy equipment. Downtime is lost money.

Yes. They put him on salary a year or two ago and gave him a company truck, but it wasn't working in his favor so they've returned to an hourly wage (plus OT, I believe). I want to say he's making around $70K/year, and he just turned 31.

0patience · September 2017

To give you an idea of the differences in automotive and heavy equipment, where I work, we are union. I know, someone will have issues with that.
But automotive techs make about 15% less than heavy equipment techs and heavy equipment field techs make about 5% more than that.
I am salary, but get overtime.

As far as what can be made as a heavy equipment tech, let's just say $70k/year would be average without OT.

Unfortunately, automotive gets left behind in the wage wars. There is a mentality that automotive techs are monkeys, who just turn wrenches, which really needs to change. People do not realize that today's vehicles are so far advanced technologically.
IT guys make,more money, yet there are way more systems and programming in today's cars, yet people still don't see a mechanic as a computer specialist,

I see this, because diagnostics and electrical are kind of my specialties. I trained folks on diagnostics, electronics and computer systems.
Heavy trucks and heavy equipment if today have as much computer systems as cars. In some cases way more.

Imagine if you had small computers controlling every separate area of your house and all of them needed to talk to each other and every day, you are walking on the wiring, the dog is chewing on the wiring and the elements are trying to destroy the wiring.
That is today's vehicles.

andres3 · September 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
I bet there is a fair amount of pressure working on heavy equipment. Downtime is lost money.

I like watching the incredible race car mechanics do things in minutes that Joe Schmoes might take a long time to do. It is funny what a human is capable of when they are focused to the task at hand.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2017

Oh, man, you screw up in auto racing and you are out the door.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

In auto racing each mechanic has a specific set of responsibilities. In a professional technician's world specializing can enhance their standard of living at the risk of limiting their chances of mobility when the need for greener grass arises.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

andres3 said:

I bet there is a fair amount of pressure working on heavy equipment. Downtime is lost money.
I like watching the incredible race car mechanics do things in minutes that Joe Schmoes might take a long time to do. It is funny what a human is capable of when they are focused to the tak at hand.

You can't compare what goes on in racing to what is done by a regular shop.
Tire rotation for the family truckster at a shop might be ten bucks. A four tire change for NASCAR costs thousands of dollars.

andres3 · September 2017

thecardoc3 said:

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
I bet there is a fair amount of pressure working on heavy equipment. Downtime is lost money.
I like watching the incredible race car mechanics do things in minutes that Joe Schmoes might take a long time to do. It is funny what a human is capable of when they are focused to the tak at hand.

You can't compare what goes on in racing to what is done by a regular shop.
Tire rotation for the family truckster at a shop might be ten bucks. A four tire change for NASCAR costs thousands of dollars.

Fair enough, so you mean those guys don't get paid by the hour at the pit stop

in CA you are lucky to find a tire rotation for $20, usually higher.

Do most technicians hate being watched while working by the client? I know many shops have signs in the garage that say "customers not allowed for insurance reasons."

Mr_Shiftright · September 2017

I never do that to a tech unless he invites me in to look over something. But I do sometimes ask to see the removed parts so I can learn something. I just toss 'em the keys and say "call me when you're done". Sometimes I bring doughnuts.

roadburner · September 2017

Mr_Shiftright said:
I never do that to a tech unless he invites me in to look over something. But I do sometimes ask to see the removed parts so I can learn something. I just toss 'em the keys and say "call me when you're done". Sometimes I bring doughnuts.

I've brought doughnuts to both my BMW and Mazda dealers. I always gave them 10s on the surveys(because they deserved it) as well. I also believe it helps to bring in a car that is reasonably clean. Every now and then we get a car in the service and the interior looks like it was used as a dumpster.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

andres3 said:

Do most technicians hate being watched while working by the client? I know many shops have signs in the garage that say "customers not allowed for insurance reasons."

I can't speak for most technicians but I can attest to the fact that an owner helicoptering around his car while it is being worked on can very easily force a technician to have to split his/her concentration on the work that they are trying to perform. When a customer is in the bay they inevitably ask questions about what and why the tech is doing what-ever. That takes time to answer that is not accounted for in the labor guide. Every step of a repair must be performed correctly and even the simplest error at the right time caused by some distraction can have a serious result and end up with a failed routine that may have to be completely redone.

Quote: "A well timed interruption can cause the dumbest and often most catastrophic mistakes".

When I am working I move very quickly and change directions just as fast. Anyone trying to watch will usually find themselves standing in my way over and over again. It's almost comical at times because if they stand still, I'll motor right around them, but if they move the odds of them continuing to block my path are quite high. People often forget that techs are usually paid by the job, not by the hour. So beating the clock even if it is only by a few minutes per hour is second only to being "perfect" with the execution of the repair. Trying to watch, especially up close does a real good job of interfering with both of those goals.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

roadburner said:
I've brought doughnuts to both my BMW and Mazda dealers. I always gave them 10s on the surveys(because they deserved it) as well. I also believe it helps to bring in a car that is reasonably clean. Every now and then we get a car in the service and the interior looks like it was used as a dumpster.

I have many times denied service when a car was in such a condition as to qualify it as a bio-hazard.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

0patience said:
To give you an idea of the differences in automotive and heavy equipment, where I work, we are union. I know, someone will have issues with that. But automotive techs make about 15% less than heavy equipment techs and heavy equipment field techs make about 5% more than that.

I thought about doing heavy equipment but that one word "heavy" was a tough one to get past. Had to laugh though, a guy called me up earlier this summer with some electrical issues on a lift vehicle that were driving him nuts. It took less than two hours to investigate the situation, devise a plan of attack and solve the problem with him doing the testing that I set up for him.

0patience said:

I am salary, but get overtime. As far as what can be made as a heavy equipment tech, let's just say $70k/year would be average without OT. Unfortunately, automotive gets left behind in the wage wars. There is a mentality that automotive techs are monkeys, who just turn wrenches, which really needs to change.

I emboldened your last sentence there. The whole reason I ever bothered to spend any time here and in other forums was to work towards that very goal. You haven't been posting here for a while, did you see some of the routines and data captures that I have posted here to give everyone else some samples of what techs have to be able to do today? FWIW I spared them some of the really hard stuff. The Nissan that had multiple module's failed (suspected lightning strike) was one that I mentioned but didn't go into detail on just what really had to be done in order to figure out every failure on that truck and restore the vehicle to full operation.

0patience said:

People do not realize that today's vehicles are so far advanced technologically. IT guys make, more money, yet there are way more systems and programming in today's cars, yet people still don't see a mechanic as a computer specialist,

Just wait till we start getting into cars that don't have steering wheels or brake pedals. The robotics that are in today's cars (and especially tomorrow's) make them some of the most complex machines man has ever created. It takes decades to learn all of the skills that top techs have to master.

0patience said:

I see this, because diagnostics and electrical are kind of my specialties. I trained folks on diagnostics, electronics and computer systems. Heavy trucks and heavy equipment if today have as much computer systems as cars. In some cases way more. Imagine if you had small computers controlling every separate area of your house and all of them needed to talk to each other and every day, you are walking on the wiring, the dog is chewing on the wiring and the elements are trying to destroy the wiring. That is today's vehicles.

These days I spend far more time teaching than wrenching which given my health and age is a good thing. To that end I still average some twenty hours a week in the shop wrenching and study some four to six hours every day. With that level of effort I can honestly say that the changes in today's cars are far outpacing my ability to keep up with. Specialization to a certain degree is an absolute necessity for younger technicians today. The day's of the all makes and all models tech are long gone and bumper to bumper even with limited manufacturers are right behind.

xwesx · September 2017

thecardoc3 said:
The Nissan that had multiple module's failed (suspected lightning strike) was one that I mentioned but didn't go into detail on just what really had to be done in order to figure out every failure on that truck and restore the vehicle to full operation.

So you got it back on the road! What was the final tally? Also, what was the customer's response to all of that (mine would have been a certain level of disbelief....!)?!

0patience · September 2017

thecardoc3 said:

I thought about doing heavy equipment but that one word "heavy" was a tough one to get past. Had to laugh though, a guy called me up earlier this summer with some electrical issues on a lift vehicle that were driving him nuts. It took less than two hours to investigate the situation, devise a plan of attack and solve the problem with him doing the testing that I set up for him.

Copy that.
I hurt my shoulder a bit ago lifting Detroit heads up onto the engine block.
The heads weigh about 180 lbs.
The first lift to the top of the front tire went fine. I ran into trouble lifting from the front tire to the engine.
Standing on the drag link and front axle, I got kind of crossed up and pulled something.
Old age, you know. LOL!
One nice thing about most heavy stuff is you usually have ample room to work.
Some things may be a little tight sometimes, but nothing like automotive.

Electrical is on area that I am disappointed in a lot of tech schools. They blow through basic electrical, when it should be one of the main concentrations of the courses.

thecardoc3 said:

I emboldened your last sentence there. The whole reason I ever bothered to spend any time here and in other forums was to work towards that very goal. You haven't been posting here for a while, did you see some of the routines and data captures that I have posted here to give everyone else some samples of what techs have to be able to do today? FWIW I spared them some of the really hard stuff. The Nissan that had multiple module's failed (suspected lightning strike) was one that I mentioned but didn't go into detail on just what really had to be done in order to figure out every failure on that truck and restore the vehicle to full operation.

I have spent the last almost 20 years trying to build the perception of mechanics.
I have dealt with mechanics across the country and all over the world.
And unfortunatley, there is the same mentality is world wide.
And then you have those jerks who "are mechanics" and post blogs and e-books on how your mechanic is ripping you off. I'd really like to have a "discussion' with one of those people.
They couldn't cut it as a real mechanic, so they cheat people by selling e-books and youtube videos, based on the 1% bad shop owners (NOT TECHS) who give the entire industry a bad name.
Over the course of those 20 years, I've seen literally hundreds of techs who donate their spare time to helping people.

thecardoc3 said:

Just wait till we start getting into cars that don't have steering wheels or brake pedals. The robotics that are in today's cars (and especially tomorrow's) make them some of the most complex machines man has ever created. It takes decades to learn all of the skills that top techs have to master.

We have graders now that are completely controlled by joystick.
It used to be that most signal wiring was 5V and you had a half a chance of deterimining signal.
Now these new systems, are all ohms and data. You have to have a laptop and the proper info or you get nowhere. Just about every system on the piece of equipment is controlled by one thing.
Kind of daunting to think of operating it, let alone repairing it. LOL!

thecardoc3 said:

These days I spend far more time teaching than wrenching which given my health and age is a good thing. To that end I still average some twenty hours a week in the shop wrenching and study some four to six hours every day. With that level of effort I can honestly say that the changes in today's cars are far outpacing my ability to keep up with. Specialization to a certain degree is an absolute necessity for younger technicians today. The day's of the all makes and all models tech are long gone and bumper to bumper even with limited manufacturers are right behind.

Most of my light fleet work is determining the problem and figuring out the time it will take for the repair.
Since most of my priority is heavy trucks and equipment, if I figure the repair is more than 4 hours, I farm it out to a shop/dealer.
Even with fleet, it is all about time management.

Sorry about being so long winded folks.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

xwesx said:

So you got it back on the road!

Yep. Got some great data in the process too. I have been thinking abut doing a YouTube video with it.

xwesx said:

What was the final tally?

It was a little over $3000 when it was all said and done. Considering that he bought it for under $1000 he was as happy as can be because before I took over he was starting to think that he had made a huge mistake. The key to doing a repair like this is to set the expectations for each phase of the operation. It is impossible to know what all is wrong with the car up front as some systems have to be restored before others even have a chance to be evaluated.

xwesx said:

Also, what was the customer's response to all of that (mine would have been a certain level of disbelief....!)?!

Explain your disbelief.

isellhondas · September 2017

thecardoc3 said:
In auto racing each mechanic has a specific set of responsibilities. In a professional technician's world specializing can enhance their standard of living at the risk of limiting their chances of mobility when the need for greener grass arises.

Until the company I was with sponsored some car racers, I had no idea that dragster engines were torn down between every race! Watching those guys was amazing!

thecardoc3 · September 2017

isellhondas said:
Until the company I was with sponsored some car racers, I had no idea that dragster engines were torn down between every race! Watching those guys was amazing!

That is something they practice all the time. The real amazing part is what it costs to do it.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

I hurt my shoulder a bit ago lifting Detroit heads up onto the engine block.
The heads weigh about 180 lbs.

We used to have wooden benches to stand on when working on some of the pick-ups. I'll never forget the time I was setting up to put a head back on a 6.2l diesel and had the bench break under the combined weight of me and one of the cylinder heads.

One nice thing about most heavy stuff is you usually have ample room to work.
Some things may be a little tight sometimes, but nothing like automotive.

People often wonder just why we have such large toolboxes and too sets that are well over $50,000 these days. It's all of the special sockets and wrenches that we have to have in order to work in those very tight areas.

Electrical is on area that I am disappointed in a lot of tech schools. They blow through basic electrical, when it should be one of the main concentrations of the courses.

There is only so much time in the current model. The automotive trade school should be a four year working program with continuing education that is mandatory through the tenth year of their career. The education of a top technician today is on par with someone who has a Masters Degree and they have had to get there all on their own.

I have spent the last almost 20 years trying to build the perception of mechanics.
I have dealt with mechanics across the country and all over the world.
And unfortunately, there is the same mentality is world wide.

I know what you are referring to and I've been kicking that back into their faces for a long time. We have made progress but there is still a log way to go.

And then you have those jerks who "are mechanics" and post blogs and e-books on how your mechanic is ripping you off. I'd really like to have a "discussion' with one of those people.

I have made it a point to do whatever it took to have those conversations. (that's why I came here......)

They couldn't cut it as a real mechanic,

Today very few people can actually cut it as a full time technician let alone master the robotics in today's cars.
The education for technicians has to increase, the standard of living has to increase and the know nothings who think they know it all need to be shown how little they really know and they need to get the heck out of the way so that we have more time to deal with the things that are really important.

so they cheat people by selling e-books and youtube videos, based on the 1% bad shop owners (NOT TECHS) who give the entire industry a bad name.

We started calling them ESO's back in the 2000's (evil shop owners) who were all about their own profits and reaching the goal of being an absentee owner. Those same owners who drove so many prospects from the automotive trade instead of investing in them and helping them grow now constantly cry that they can't find qualified technicians and they are largely at fault for the trades current status.

Over the course of those 20 years, I've seen literally hundreds of techs who donate their spare time to helping people.

As have I even while they personally struggled and sacrificed while managing to learn to "live within their means". While everyone around them prospered I saw techs working months on end without a single day off, no overtime pay, often working a second job (side work at home?) and seeing that all devoured by personal tool and training expenses.

We have graders now that are completely controlled by joystick.
It used to be that most signal wiring was 5V and you had a half a chance of determining signal.
Now these new systems, are all ohms and data. You have to have a laptop and the proper info or you get nowhere. Just about every system on the piece of equipment is controlled by one thing.
Kind of daunting to think of operating it, let alone repairing it. LOL!

The classes that I present are designed to take professional technicians who previously haven't been trained to work on stuff like progress to be the technician that the consumer needs the shops to have. The latest and greatest tool is worthless without skilled hands to use it. This is so appropriate right here.....

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44272/the-road-not-taken

Most of my light fleet work is determining the problem and figuring out the time it will take for the repair.
Since most of my priority is heavy trucks and equipment, if I figure the repair is more than 4 hours, I farm it out to a shop/dealer.
Even with fleet, it is all about time management.

Sorry about being so long winded folks.

I'm not. It's a small sacrifice by a few to serve everyone else.

thecardoc3 · September 2017

Some details of the Union agreement.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170920/RETAIL/170929972/1147

Part of the union's core fight was for guaranteed pay for a 40-hour workweek. The dealership committee sought to keep the mechanics' current 34-hour workweek by offering a 5 percent annual pay increase over three years with additional incentives.

Mechanics tend to work more than 40 hours per week but receive pay based mainly on incentives. As warranties lengthen and vehicles require less maintenance, a mechanic's incentive-based pay plan becomes tricky. The warranty work that continues to come through the service drive pays far less than customer-pay rates.

After rejecting each other's initial offerings, the groups settled on guaranteed pay for a 35-hour workweek for three years and pay for a 36-hour workweek in the fourth and final year of the contract.

That is a step in the right direction but didn't go far enough to fix one of the biggest problems. When a car is brought in by a consumer under warranty the techs lose significant earning potential for that period of time. The flat rate world is all about "reward and punishment" where the techs are rewarded for gaining experience and for motivating themselves to do accurate expeditious work. Then there is the punishment side where if they take too long to do a given diagnostic and repair they are punished financially since they put in more hours than they get paid for. The warranty time techs are paid by is nothing short of fraudulent. The guaranteed hours serves to free them from some of that abuse essentially making them straight time employee's but still loses sight of the fact that their base hourly wage is a number that expects them to turn 50-60 hours a week to make their promised gross income. Straight time has the clock running backwards towards that 50-to 60 hour goal but at least it is better than nothing.

The second point of major contention was a more flexible work schedule. Dealerships are often open six days a week in Chicago, and mechanics are on a "flex" schedule in which no mechanic can take off two days in a row. Their days off are usually Sunday, when the dealership is closed, and another day in the middle of the week.
"You can't get things done on the homefront," Cicinelli said. "You forgo family functions and a lot of other things. It's taking its toll on a lot of people that work that flex schedule."

Imagine yourself in a position where you are going to be expected to have to perpetually sacrifice your family life for your job. Which should be more important? What is more important to you?

The new contract allows senior-status journeymen to become exempt from the flex schedule, taking two consecutive days off.

Now the question becomes, will the entry level techs stay in the career long enough to get this benefit?

Career growth Another point the union wouldn't bend on was the apprenticeship program, which stretched from eight to 10 years long. But both the union and dealership committee agreed that length was "onerous," Bilek said.
The apprenticeship program was reduced to five years. After that, apprentices will be assessed and, if qualified, can be promoted to journeyman status.

Being a journeyman is one thing, there is no end to the learning required to master the trade. (It might not be practical to even try anymore since that demands so much study)

The union also won entry-level wage increases. A lube technician's starting wages increased to $11 an hour from $9 per hour, and a semiskilled technician's hourly wages increased to $13 from $11. Both lube technicians and semiskilled technicians are considered junior classifications of mechanics.

They can make that at McDonalds......

Making the profession more attractive and professional growth more attainable were important sticking points for the union. Cicinelli said the entry-level wage increase is important when considering a young automotive mechanic, freshly graduated and paying off tuition with a $30,000 to $50,000 investment in tools. The $11 starting wage doesn't sound so attractive at that point, he said.

Neither does $13/hr. Don't expect the increasing shortage of qualified technicians to slow down.

Other career path contract gains include a statute that allows semiskilled technicians to be reviewed by management after 24 months and then put on an apprentice track. That way, an employee knows after 24 months -- and not 10 years -- if he or she will have an opportunity to climb the career ladder, Cicinelli said. "We made gains but not the gains, in our opinion, to make the career path completely attractive," Cicinelli said. "But we're headed in the right direction."

Well they can still claim that someone CAN make $100K as a technician and there are some who do. I'll just point out that someone can win the lottery or make it as a professional athlete or musician too. But should someone risk their life and career on such promises?

xwesx · September 2017

thecardoc3 said:
Explain your disbelief.

Oh, just in how many things/systems were damaged on the truck, and what it took to trace it all out. Overall, it sounds like he still came out really well on it, and, what's more, now he knows he has a truck that is going to work right!

isellhondas · September 2017

After managing a busy shop and being in the mobile tool business for 20 years I have nothing but the deepest respect for today's technicians. These guys often went without so they could pay their massive tool bills. They needed these expensive tools and were constantly upgrading and having to learn new methods.

I once had a guy who owned a Transmission shop tell me that for his first twenty years in the business he had to
learn very little but now he has to constantly study and buy new equipment just to compete.

He just retired and our town lost a great and honest shop!

thecardoc3 · September 2017

xwesx said:

thecardoc3 said:
Explain your disbelief.
Oh, just in how many things/systems were damaged on the truck, and what it took to trace it all out.

Without that being demonstrated historically you might only have gotten half of a story where a vehicle owner would be saying that they were charged XXXX for this, and XXX for that and everyone and their brother would have been piling on advice telling the owner how they were ripped off when they really had no idea just what was really involved in doing work like that. All of that consumer pressure, unfairly and incorrectly applied is a direct factor in why there are so few people who are qualified, capable of and equipped to efficiently do the repair and if someone thinks that is an accident, think again. The people who have the greatest interest in preventing someone from being able to do a resurrection like that make their living by that car getting crushed so that they can sell the consumer a different one.

xwesx said:

Overall, it sounds like he still came out really well on it, and, what's more, now he knows he has a truck that is going to work right!

He did and he is enjoying it.

0patience · September 2017

Just had a hearing test done and I failed.
Looks like hearing aids are in my future.
If any young techs are reading this, USE HEARING PROTECTION!!
If you don't, it will catch up to you.

Even using hearing protection quite often, it was not often enough.

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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