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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,251
    Ford now has Stop/Start in the F-150, their flagship vehicle. I don't think they would do that if it was very risky.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • tbirdmarcotbirdmarco Member Posts: 3,838
    @Michaell all intrestng books you posted have to read them!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The problem with most tech is that it works great until it doesn't, then it fails completely. It's not like you can watch your car's "tech gauge" and see the "tech pressure" dropping from 80 to 12, or the "tech temperature" going into the red zone.
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312

    Ford now has Stop/Start in the F-150, their flagship vehicle. I don't think they would do that if it was very risky.

    We aren't seeing any issues with auto stop/start, and BMW has had the feature for over five years.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It works fine. Hybrids have used it for over a decade. I find it annoying but it shouldn’t be a problem otherwise.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    So I'm in Atlanta for a wedding.  Picked up my "Full Sized" rental from HERTZ.  A 2017 Camry SE with just over 31K miles on the clock.  While I'm not in love with the car, it isn't half bad.  It drives smoothly.  It cruises very nicely on the highway.  Big trunk.  Comfy, supportive seats.  I can definitely see the appeal.  Being a rental, I'm sure it's 31K miles haven't been easy ones.  The car is tight as a drum.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    before I got my Sonata, I cam close to pulling trigger on a 2015 Camry XLE. Every time I tried it, I was surprised by how nice it actually was. Probably would have gotten it if the sales person had not been out for a week so never called me back!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Motor Trend compares a 2018 Accord EX (msrp $28k) with a 2018 Camry XLE (msrp $33k)....

    http://www.motortrend.com/cars/honda/accord/2018/2018-honda-accord-15t-vs-2018-toyota-camry-25-comparison-review/

    "....Upon entering each car, we notice the Camry’s doors (on all trims) close with a hollow, tinny whumma not unlike a wobbly metal shed. The Accord’s close with the sturdy, reassuring thud of a luxury car.....Honda’s simulated open-pore wood trim and brushed-metal accents seem borrowed from a higher class of car. The temperature controls use knobs backlit white until you turn them, at which point they turn blue or red, depending on the cold or hot direction of the dial. With the exception of trim pieces just below the door handles, the interior materials look and feel more premium than the Camry’s....

    Settling in, the Camry XLE’s seats are leather, but they’re flat and offer little support beyond the adjustable lumbar. The seat-bottom cushion is also shorter than we’d like in terms of thigh support....the Accord seats are more comfortable and offer more lateral support, particularly when cornering....Additionally, every Accord trim level offers rear air vents, which are only available on higher Camry models....

    Starting the engines, we find the Camry’s 2.5-liter four-cylinder both louder and coarser than the Accord’s 1.5-liter turbo-four.....If, for some reason, you were to line up the two cars for a drag race, you’d discover that they’re dead equal on performance despite their different personalities.....The Camry has a long brake pedal, which requires a bit too much travel and effort to get the braking power you want, but the car still stops from 60 mph in 122 feet. The Accord has much more bite in its brakes, but its rock-hard tires don’t have as much grip, so it needs 135 feet to stop from the same speed....

    Holistically, though, there’s no comparison. The Accord is more comfortable, spacious, and luxurious than the Camry. It’s quieter, rides and handles better, and drives more elegantly. It offers superior technology with a more user-friendly interface. Simply put, Toyota built a better Camry, but Honda built a better car."

    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    Benjamin - you and I have something in common: obsessed with one automobile.

    You: Honda Accord.

    Me: 2018 Subaru Impreza 2.0i 5-speed stick.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    Big sticker price delta too

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311

    Benjamin - you and I have something in common: obsessed with one automobile.

    You: Honda Accord.

    Me: 2018 Subaru Impreza 2.0i 5-speed stick.

    I wanted to like the new Camry, but doesn't seem like it compares very well....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    As reliable as Accord's are, I'd still take the Camry in the million mile challenge every time. If it wasn't for the Camry's history of being more bulletproof than the President's Cadillac's, I don't think it would be a huge seller. It has to be a lot of built up goodwill, reputation, and loyalty.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    akirby said:
    There are always exceptions.

    Those exceptions seem to come out of the Chrysler culture a lot. Come to think of it I can't think of anything in modern times where I hear as much bad press about unreliable junk than the FIAT/Chrysler/Alfa team.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited October 2017
    andres3 said:

    As reliable as Accord's are, I'd still take the Camry in the million mile challenge every time. If it wasn't for the Camry's history of being more bulletproof than the President's Cadillac's, I don't think it would be a huge seller. It has to be a lot of built up goodwill, reputation, and loyalty.

    I think the majority of people keep their new midsize cars c. 3-8 years, and c. 30k-100k miles. But it's true that the Camry has been a reliable and long-lasting car in the past. Finally, turbos, even Honda turbos, seem unlikely to go more than about 200k or so, but maybe I'm wrong about that....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    I might be dead before I could get this car up to 200k, at the pace I drive now

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    benjaminh said:

    andres3 said:

    As reliable as Accord's are, I'd still take the Camry in the million mile challenge every time. If it wasn't for the Camry's history of being more bulletproof than the President's Cadillac's, I don't think it would be a huge seller. It has to be a lot of built up goodwill, reputation, and loyalty.

    I think the majority of people keep their new midsize cars c. 3-8 years, and c. 30k-100k miles. But it's true that the Camry has been a reliable and long-lasting car in the past. Finally, turbos, even Honda turbos, seem unlikely to go more than about 200k or so, but maybe I'm wrong about that....
    Dead turbo? Good excuse to put a bigger turbo on and tune it for more power! Now the engine or dual-clutch transmission dying is another story. Fortunately (knocking on wood), I've never had to see a bill for a new DSG transmission, though I've heard it can be a pretty penny!
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited October 2017
    Remember the yuoglslia gen the Yugo
    benjaminh said:

    andres3 said:

    As reliable as Accord's are, I'd still take the Camry in the million mile challenge every time. If it wasn't for the Camry's history of being more bulletproof than the President's Cadillac's, I don't think it would be a huge seller. It has to be a lot of built up goodwill, reputation, and loyalty.

    I think the majority of people keep their new midsize cars c. 3-8 years, and c. 30k-100k miles. But it's true that the Camry has been a reliable and long-lasting car in the past. Finally, turbos, even Honda turbos, seem unlikely to go more than about 200k or so, but maybe I'm wrong about that....
    Every person I talked to about there old Camry's rave how reliable they have been .

    I owned 2 Camry's years ago and they were bullet proof over the years.

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • brian125brian125 Member Posts: 5,244
    edited October 2017
    Honda had a Bad Track record on there Accord, Civic, and Passports Transmissions mainly from 1999 to 2004

    23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    brian125 said:

    Honda had a Bad Track record on there Accord, Civic, and Passports Transmissions mainly from 1999 to 2004

    Never heard of problems with the 4-cylinder cars' tranmissions. Figured it was limited to the high output V6.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,027
    I wonder if MT still slants its articles according to advertising revenue.

    For them to call the cloth-seat Accord "more luxurious" than the Camry with leather seems a bit of a stretch. The entire article seems to be written from one point of view, that being to have the Accord come out on top.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    Yes but there's something about the Camry interior that's always seemed a step down to me. 
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    ab348 said:

    I wonder if MT still slants its articles according to advertising revenue.

    For them to call the cloth-seat Accord "more luxurious" than the Camry with leather seems a bit of a stretch. The entire article seems to be written from one point of view, that being to have the Accord come out on top.

    Well, Car and Driver also gives the new Accord a very positive review. As does Automobile magazine, etc., etc. It's not just Motor Trend.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,027
    benjaminh said:


    Well, Car and Driver also gives the new Accord a very positive review. As does Automobile magazine, etc., etc. It's not just Motor Trend.

    All of the auto mags have been in love with Honda forever though, especially C&D with their ridiculous position on every generation of Accord. I'm not saying it's a bad car, not at all. I am simply saying the views published in those magazines cannot be trusted to be objective when it comes to Honda since there has always been a clear bias in their favor.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited October 2017
    ab348 said:

    benjaminh said:


    Well, Car and Driver also gives the new Accord a very positive review. As does Automobile magazine, etc., etc. It's not just Motor Trend.

    All of the auto mags have been in love with Honda forever though, especially C&D with their ridiculous position on every generation of Accord. I'm not saying it's a bad car, not at all. I am simply saying the views published in those magazines cannot be trusted to be objective when it comes to Honda since there has always been a clear bias in their favor.
    So it's a vast conspiracy....? ok....

    In the past when I've gotten a rental Camry, Fusion, Altima, Sonata, etc., there definitely are weak spots in those cars that the magazines point out. They aren't making this stuff up. Does the Accord have weak spots? Yes. As MT mentioned, the stopping distance was not good, and clearly inferior to the Camry.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    ab348 said:

    benjaminh said:


    Well, Car and Driver also gives the new Accord a very positive review. As does Automobile magazine, etc., etc. It's not just Motor Trend.

    All of the auto mags have been in love with Honda forever though, especially C&D with their ridiculous position on every generation of Accord. I'm not saying it's a bad car, not at all. I am simply saying the views published in those magazines cannot be trusted to be objective when it comes to Honda since there has always been a clear bias in their favor.
    Maybe the Accord is just better. It's always seemed so to me.
    '14 Buick Encore Convenience
    '17 Chevy Volt Premiere
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    Just read car and driver review last night. They picked some nits. The bigger issue is, they seem to be all testing niche model. C&D tested the 2.0 sport manual. Nice to read, not relevant for 99% of population. Hopefully will find an EX road test at some point!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    stickguy said:

    Just read car and driver review last night. They picked some nits. The bigger issue is, they seem to be all testing niche model. C&D tested the 2.0 sport manual. Nice to read, not relevant for 99% of population. Hopefully will find an EX road test at some point!

    They know C&D and other mags will give the car a good review if they send it to them equipped Sport 2.0 6MT. Eventually they'll do a "short take" on the Touring and invite an EX to a "Mid Sized Sedan Comparo."

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    A lot of people used to claim C&D was beholden to BMW; you don't hear that much these days as the only BMWs C&D has really liked lately are the 2 Series and the X1.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    ab348 said:

    benjaminh said:


    Well, Car and Driver also gives the new Accord a very positive review. As does Automobile magazine, etc., etc. It's not just Motor Trend.

    All of the auto mags have been in love with Honda forever though, especially C&D with their ridiculous position on every generation of Accord. I'm not saying it's a bad car, not at all. I am simply saying the views published in those magazines cannot be trusted to be objective when it comes to Honda since there has always been a clear bias in their favor.
    Perhaps if they change their name to "The New Car & Driver" and "The New Road & Track" and "The New Motor Trend" it'll be OK to trust them again?

    Certainly some of the biased employees that wrote positively about the Accord in the 80's have retired or moved onto other employment elsewhere. At least, that's the reason we've been given to trust the Car companies that may have burned us in the past?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    Not IMO bias, implying unfair. Just that the Accord is the type of car that appeals to them, along with the masses.

    They used to love the civic, then when that car got bad, they trashed it. But like the new model. They also fawn all over the Mazda 6, but since it doesn't sell, no one cares or cries bias.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,027
    I think it's actually worse now, as the current-day writers are the ones who had a clapped-out '90 Civic with a coffee-can muffler when they first got licensed, and think it was the best car ever.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    edited October 2017
    ab348 said:

    I think it's actually worse now, as the current-day writers are the ones who had a clapped-out '90 Civic with a coffee-can muffler when they first got licensed, and think it was the best car ever.

    Those 90's Civics were pretty darn great! I wished I'd of had one, sans the coffee can exhaust tips.

    The closest I got was my wife's first car actually, the '92 Civic DX Hatchback with a 4-speed Auto, but it was already 10 years old with 165K miles, we only had it 2 years (and it did its job well).

    If I had convinced my father (and myself) to get a Civic in the 90's, then I wouldn't have had the Neon experience. I wonder which Dodge I might have been tempted by in that alternate reality and timeline? Maybe that Magnum Wagon with a Hemi.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    edited October 2017
    Just read the MT link above. Definitely liked what they said about the EX. Hope to drive one next week.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Every person, reviewer, editor, blogger and test driver has their own biases. It's unavoidable. You should always take any report or review with a grain of salt. C&D has always been biased to sporty vehicles. MT is biased to whoever spends the most in advertising.

    I also don't think these reviews have much influence over what people actually buy which is one reason Ford stopped catering to their whims a few years ago (and ruffled a bunch of feathers in the process TTAC ).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    If reviews made a difference then Camry would not have been #1 the last decade.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Camry and Accord both have good reliability and sell well. The comparison stops there in my opinion because they are just different cars. I think it is hard to say one is better than the other. It really just depends on what the buyer is looking for. I think Ford had a potential winner with Fusion, but just let it get stale.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    berri said:

    Camry and Accord both have good reliability and sell well. The comparison stops there in my opinion because they are just different cars. I think it is hard to say one is better than the other. It really just depends on what the buyer is looking for. I think Ford had a potential winner with Fusion, but just let it get stale.

    They also both have good resale value. No doubt for their reputation to reach extremely high miles without dipping into your wallet.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,435
    Basically they give the large majority of the buying public the exact attributes they want, and have for decades. And that brand value goes a long way.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,063
    Speaking of the Camry, I spotted a Gen I Camry hatchback a week or two ago. Looked to be in remarkably good condition for a car 30+ years old. The driver probably has owned it since new.

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  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited October 2017
    The one 2018 Camry I might still be interested in, if it was available at the right price, is the hybrid model. Gets a good review from Alex on Autos....But the lack of AndroidAuto is probably a no-go for our family.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZAOyqXNSw4&t=192s
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited October 2017
    This might be annoying to some. It does seem over the top. I mean, maybe the best sedan for under $35,000, but otherwise no....So, it does perhaps back up the bias idea. This does fit my theory—that Honda made the 2.0 with the six speed manual in part for drivers, but in part for Car and Driver, and specifically to try to try to keep the Accord's place on C&Ds 10 Best list. Looks like it worked.


    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    berri said:

    Camry and Accord both have good reliability and sell well. The comparison stops there in my opinion because they are just different cars. I think it is hard to say one is better than the other. It really just depends on what the buyer is looking for. I think Ford had a potential winner with Fusion, but just let it get stale.

    They also both have good resale value. No doubt for their reputation to reach extremely high miles without dipping into your wallet.
    benjaminh said:

    This might be annoying to some. It does seem over the top. I mean, maybe the best sedan for under $35,000, but otherwise no....So, it does perhaps back up the bias idea.


    Well, the term best can often mean best value, or best pound for pound, dollar for dollar.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Well, it does says "America's Best Sedan," implying that BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. have better sedans, but they aren't made in America.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,251
    America's best sedan is a Cadillac. It just costs more money.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    As Andres says, best in what? If it doesn't get big dealer packs and mark-ups, considering resale and total cost of ownership, maybe the Accord will be a best value, but Camry buyers will argue the point. As for Cadillac, I'd like to see a head on between it's top sedan (not sure what nomenclature that wears these days) and a new Continental. Maybe throw in a well equipped Buick Lacrosse just for a value comparison.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    "Kobe Steel admits it may have faked data on more products

    ....Kobe Steel customers from Ford Motor Co. to Toyota Motor Corp. to Subaru Corp. are investigating whether they used the suspect materials and whether safety has been compromised.

    "If you look at previous instances with "companies initially saying it is a single, one-off, it has always expanded to more and more parts of the business," said Alexander Robert Medd, managing director at Bucephalus Research Partnership. "One usually finds out that it is reasonably systematic."

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20171011/OEM10/171019856/kobe-steel-admits-it-may-have-faked-data-on-more-products

    Honda apparently also used Kobe steel.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,251
    I didn't see any qualifiers in the headline, so I'm standing by my choice. :)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    An entire in-depth New York Times article, with multiple videos, analyzing how Toyota is marketing the all-new Camry....

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/12/business/media/toyota-camry-ads-different-ethnicities.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

    Different Ads, Different Ethnicities, Same Car - The New York Times
    By Sapna Maheshwari
    Published: Oct. 12, 2017
    Toyota recently unveiled four ads for the same car — its flagship Camry. Each ad speaks to a different audience, offering a fascinating glimpse into how race and culture figure into American advertising today.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,312
    benjaminh said:

    An entire in-depth New York Times article, with multiple videos, analyzing how Toyota is marketing the all-new Camry....

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/10/12/business/media/toyota-camry-ads-different-ethnicities.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

    Different Ads, Different Ethnicities, Same Car - The New York Times
    By Sapna Maheshwari
    Published: Oct. 12, 2017
    Toyota recently unveiled four ads for the same car — its flagship Camry. Each ad speaks to a different audience, offering a fascinating glimpse into how race and culture figure into American advertising today.

    AKA: Vanilla in four different flavors...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

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