Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Postwar Studebakers

16970727475143

Comments

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    Last Studebaker Avanti ad I remember seeing. I just like the ad. I remember cutting this out of an old magazine (I think NatGeo) at the Thiel College library for my dorm room after the holidays, LOL.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6a/57/73/6a5773114658633f3578a9b7b1ad9b61.jpg
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I know I have told the story, but that reminds me of something I did when I was young. My parents were hobbyist antique dealers, and I quickly learned that if I tagged along with them, they'd get me things, and I might be able to flip things for a profit. I'd buy large quantities of National Geographics from yard and estate sales (they had to be cheap, no more than ~25 cents each, preferably much cheaper - a huge box for $5 was the best way), I'd cut out the car ads with an x-acto knife, and put them in bundles of 10 ads for $9-10 in my parents antique mall both. I sold every bundle I could make.

    I saw this clean local show/driver quality bullet nose coupe at the local specialty dealer yesterday - nice looking car, but no prices on the site or on the cars, which turns me off like nothing else.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    You probably remember, as I do, that the car ads in NatGeo tended to be more-expensive models as I guess manufacturers figured that would be more the taste or type of auto buyers, that read NatGeo.

    That's a nice bullet-nose. I think that era Stude, plus Golden Hawks, are the ones the masses identify the most as Studebakers. My wife likes them. I think they're 'out there' styling-wise, although they were the best-selling Studebakers ever built. They made more profit in '59 on fewer units though.

    I went to college at Clarion although I remember cutting that Avanti ad out the Thiel College library which was in my hometown. Really, shame on me for that!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    The Avanti introduced this little slide-out beauty-case thing (Stude called it a 'vanity') that was tucked away in the glovebox. Had a flip-up makeup mirror and little compartments. Really, it took up a lot of glovebox space but it was standard in the '64 cars, even other than Avanti. My '66 Cruiser doesn't have it as it was optional then, but I wish it had it. The Avanti had red instrument lights which they put in the regular '64 cars. I honestly don't know if they were still doing that in '66 or not. I haven't driven my '66 with the lights on yet, LOL.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    The same seller has a couple other Studes, including a supercharged GT Hawk - lots of pics, no prices.

    When I was in high school, my school had a huge collection of Geographics going back to at least 1920, if not before. I had to control myself to not "borrow" them (as they were in a disused room, and nobody would have noticed) and pilfer the ads. I recall Olds and Buick ads were big, along with fancier trim Ford and Chevy, Chrysler, Packard, etc.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    Thanks for sending. I love GT's, and I can't resist pointing out non-authentic stuff though, which irritates some folks, LOL. But a selling dealer will never point the stuff out, especially if it isn't obvious. I sort-of like that '63 Green Mist color, not often seen but accurate.

    I believe that that car was not built with the supercharger. With a serial number, the build sheet is easily available from the Studebaker National Museum to confirm. In fact, it has a hood from an earlier Golden Hawk, which has that extra, long piece on top that covers a hole in the hood for that '57-era supercharger to fit!!! (The later supercharged Hawks had a different hood). The tach is obviously aftermarket (supercharged cars from the factory had the tach standard) and the "Supercharged" emblem(s) like this car has were used on only the '63 Avanti.

    Minor: Wheels not off-white. Missing grille badge.

    Upholstery looks original or NOS.

    They retooled that decklid for the '64 model year, so it didn't have the ridges nor the metal overlay which covered them. I like that simple look best but for sure they didn't amortize that cost of tooling over only 1,767 '64 Hawks!

    http://www.significantcars.com/cars/1964studebaker/007.jpg
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I was hoping you'd pick it apart a bit ;) The seller is notoriously overpriced, their business model either hunting for careless new money (which is quite common here), or having significant negotiation room built into their pricing model.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    LOL.....forgot to mention, Avantis had rake but Hawks didn't. :) New springs in the front appear to be in order!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    You should send them a note, as their ad copy reads "museum quality". Of course, "museum quality" isn't always a positive connotation, as we've all probably seen some messy cars in museums.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Oh, they'd probably hate that. :) I do think if someone, a newbie for instance, thinks they're buying original/authentic, they need to know what isn't. Of course, I'm assuming the dealer knows, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    Attempted to post a link to a Stude/MB dealer called "Arcure Motors" in Ann Arbor, MI. There is a 1964 photo with of all things, a '63 Ford directly out front, and there's also a pic from around '60 I'd say with a few M-B's in the pic. When one reads old-car articles about which Stude dealers got M-B, one often reads they were the 'biggest' and/or 'the best'. Arcure is even smaller than the dealer in my hometown.

    My bet (only that) is that if you were a Stude dealer who would cough up the money for signage and tools, you got the M-B franchise. My hometown dealer sold them from '57-65.

    I read in a recent book on Byers Burlingame, the last president of Studebaker and a numbers-cruncher, not a product guy, that after the closure of South Bend, he wished to release M-B Sales, Inc., from the Studebaker umbrella and while in Germany tried to see M-B management who supposedly wouldn't see him. Hard to believe, but the book was written from info in the archives at the Stude Museum. Management wanted out of the car sales business by that time, in general. Stude's U.S. dealer network went from 1,915 to 450 between Dec. '63 and Mar. '66.

    I've read 1965 as the end date of that agreement. By that time, my hometown dealer was selling Simca and Sunbeam too. I can remember one Simca in town!

    After the Hawk, Avanti, trucks, hardtops, and convertibles, and Studebaker-built engines, were out of the line--in the '65 model year--only the true diehards were buying Studebakers. The guy who bought my '66 was born in 1904, bought my car a month after the last car was built, and traded in a '53 Stude.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Those tools would have been a not-insignificant investment, I wouldn't be surprised if that did it. I am surprised that a small town middle America dealer carried MB, but then again, if you had a college nearby, and maybe some engineering-intensive local industry, that might have been enough to create demand, as the brand was more popular among professor and engineer types, and wasn't really about status and flash. I think MBUSA was independent from Stude around 1965, too.

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    My hometown dealer (really, the son of the original dealer) told me they did a pretty good M-B repair business, as a larger city about 15 miles away did not have a M-B dealer. He said their one mechanic in particular became known in the parts as a good M-B mechanic. He is still with us, and a nice fellow.

    My high school nurse, named Isabelle Smith, an older lady who was a real character, drove a slate blue 190SL in the '70's. My dealer friend said they did sell and service that particular car.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I wonder how well the 190SL aged in that climate, summer car only?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Looked nice in the mid-seventies. :)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Wonder if this will bring near the estimate. I'm not crazy about them; I'd take a Gran Turismo correctly restored over it, any day of the week--function of my age. That said, for all the grief they get, I'll take the styling and proportions over, say, the same year Buick or Olds. I think that all other things being equal, these bring the most bucks of any Hawk:

    https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0118-313025/1958-packard-hawk-sport-hardtop/
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    If I was looking for a red Hawk, I'd take this one. :)

    I've seen it in person. A first-class restoration.

    https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hcc/2014/11/Reborn-Hawk---1964-Studebaker-Gran-Turismo-Hawk/3743431.html#PhotoSwipe1515003957772
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    fintail said:

    I was hoping you'd pick it apart a bit ;) The seller is notoriously overpriced, their business model either hunting for careless new money (which is quite common here), or having significant negotiation room built into their pricing model.

    This seller is in our backyard and I have to agree about overpriced. When they don't list a price and say CALL you can be assured the car is overpriced.

    Still, they have been ib business for quite awhile now so not everyone must share out opinion!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited January 2018
    I think they've been around for 20 years, maybe more. This area has been affluent for some time, so it works. I think they build room for negotiation into their prices, as much of their inventory is kind of ordinary, and people shop around.

    But otherwise, they are in the right place at the right time. Three key demographics here - well-paid tech dorks, sketchy offshore money launderer types, and shall I say, fortunate boomers - all three will be attracted to various types of the inventory.



    This seller is in our backyard and I have to agree about overpriced. When they don't list a price and say CALL you can be assured the car is overpriced.

    Still, they have been ib business for quite awhile now so not everyone must share out opinion!

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    The '58 Packard Hawk in my earlier link here just sold at Mecum for $137,500. I think the Mopar-like "toilet seat" on the decklid is the most egregious thing on the car but again, give me a Gran Turismo any day. But that is some serious money for a closed postwar Studebaker.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Wonder if this will bring near the estimate. I'm not crazy about them; I'd take a Gran Turismo correctly restored over it, any day of the week--function of my age. That said, for all the grief they get, I'll take the styling and proportions over, say, the same year Buick or Olds. I think that all other things being equal, these bring the most bucks of any Hawk:

    https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0118-313025/1958-packard-hawk-sport-hardtop/

    That's a pretty optimistic estimate on a car that has remained somewhat flat in value. It does seem to be in great shape, though. I think the selling price on a car like this depends on whether there are two determined Packard hawk enthusiasts in the room or not. It's a narrow niche of buyers. Under "normal" non-auction duress, you'd think that $65K--$85K would bring it home.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    Another Packard Hawk sold there for $42.9K, that was rated a "C-" by somebody beforehand who looked underneath it. It was green.

    Only 588 of those cars assembled and two at Mecum and both sold.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Those late Packards' with quad headlights looked like a frog B) The single pair headlights was definitely cleaner on these I think.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Dodge and Mercury did the added pods too, although in chrome. I don't mind that so much on the non-Hawk hardtops, but I detest the fin-on-a-fin in the back!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Crazy money.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I agree! HORRIBLE crazy money for one of the absolute ugliest cars ( I know...my opinion) ever produced!

    Then we have the Buyer's Fees on top of that!

    I would be afraid to drive the thing! Can you imagine if it got whacked? " Trying to find parts?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    Studebaker parts are often more available than Big Three body and trim parts--fact. More stuff reproduced than a lot of folks know too.

    To me, the ugliest '58 cars are Oldsmobiles, followed by Buicks. Then, Rambler four-doors.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,466

    Studebaker parts are often more available than Big Three body and trim parts--fact. More stuff reproduced than a lot of folks know too.

    To me, the ugliest '58 cars are Oldsmobiles, followed by Buicks. Then, Rambler four-doors.

    Actually, I thought the '58 Ramblers were an improvement over the seriously appearance-challenged '56s and '57s. But I definitely agree on the Oldsmobiles and Buicks. in either order.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2018
    Yep, Detroit (and South Bend) seemed to enjoy torturing metal (or fiberglass) in 1958.

    I have no idea why that guy paid exactly double the market value for a restored '58 Hawk, but then again, I haven't seen the car.

    Just when you think you couldn't make a car any less attractive, THIS comes along: I'm sure Uplander knows this car.


  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Thanks Shifty...I just ate breakfast too!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I want to see it with the top up.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Low Rider B)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    I've seen pics before of that car, but never in person (thankfully).

    Golden Hawks generally in similar condition as that Packard Hawk have brought big bucks at the auctions, and my thirty years of looking, a lot, at Studebakers for sale in magazines, on eBay, and through the Studebaker Drivers' Club forum, and talking with sellers and buyers, with results reported, has shown me that all other things equal, Packard Hawks bring the most of any Hawks. I wouldn't buy one, but as I said earlier, the most egregious thing on them is the 'toilet seat', to my eyes. At least it doesn't have a musical score down the side like the Olds, LOL. And I grew up on GM.

    The auction estimate on that Packard Hawk was $110K-$130K, so Mecum must not have been real surprised by the sale result. As mentioned, both of the Packard Hawks at Mecum sold.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    It could be worse! Someone could have grafted on a set of those quad headlights!
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Agreed! Thankfully Hawks never got quads nor the faddish wraparound windshield!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    To my eyes, some of the most tortured sheetmetal came from Kenosha!

    Check out a '56-57 Rambler sedan, a '61 Ambassador, or a '62 Classic two-door sedan. Not from Kenosha, but I'd put an early Valiant wagon in that list too. Check out the '56/57 Nash/Hudson instrument panels too...WTH? :)

    The '63 Rambler Classic looked good to me, but too bad they didn't offer a hardtop, or a V8 of any size until mid-year. The instrument panel, though, still looked kind-of 'googie' to me, with various shapes and their "123456789101112" speedo. :)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Ah, the shovel nosed Ambassador :p
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    Funny, I actually like late sixties Ambassador hardtops and '74-78 Matador coupes, believe it or not!

    From about '56-62, in my mind, Ramblers have a Russian or "Eastern Bloc" look to them, LOL. They really did get cleaned up for '63 IMHO. Those late forties/early fifties Nashes with no front wheel openings...WTH? :)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I kind of like these, but I think the name and the nameplate font do a lot for me:

    image
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    Those first Rebels were a high-performance car, but to me, the styling is too out-there. Funky instrument panel too. I will say that I am able to appreciate any car that is a nice original or authentic restoration and I'm guessing that one is.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    As I recall, because they were a bit smaller and lighter those Rambler Rebel's were pretty quick for the time. Personally, I liked it better as a wagon. Growing up in the Chicago suburbs at least, I think an above average number of Rambler's were wagons during that era you don't care for. When the more modern looking 63's came out, I think it moved away from wagon market share some. The era of the early 60's Rambler's seemed to have a decent reputation for reliability as well as economy which probably helped them in sales volume. I think Studebaker hurt themselves in the long run with the emphasis on the Lark during the same time period. American's preferred cars larger than that and they came with better profit margins than compacts. Lark had an initial advantage in 59/60, but then Detroit got into compact cars big time.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I think the late 50s Ramblers are also similar in size to a fintail, along with resembling one. This makes sense - in Europe, the somewhat angular Pininfarina sedan was a popular theme, and rumor has it MB had sought proposals from Farina, but backed out upon seeing them - and the fintail strongly resembled the proposed designs.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    I've seen pics before of that car, but never in person (thankfully).

    Golden Hawks generally in similar condition as that Packard Hawk have brought big bucks at the auctions, and my thirty years of looking, a lot, at Studebakers for sale in magazines, on eBay, and through the Studebaker Drivers' Club forum, and talking with sellers and buyers, with results reported, has shown me that all other things equal, Packard Hawks bring the most of any Hawks. I wouldn't buy one, but as I said earlier, the most egregious thing on them is the 'toilet seat', to my eyes. At least it doesn't have a musical score down the side like the Olds, LOL. And I grew up on GM.

    The auction estimate on that Packard Hawk was $110K-$130K, so Mecum must not have been real surprised by the sale result. As mentioned, both of the Packard Hawks at Mecum sold.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That's true--historic auction results back up that the Packard Hawk brings more $$$ than any other Hawk; however, the auction results also indicate that that last sale was a real outlier, so I wouldn't call it "market" by a long shot. We'd have to see 5-6 more sales like that to reset the bar, otherwise mid $70Ks sounds right, given that it is a '58 Studebaker Golden Hawk underneath and shares lots of other parts, too. And the '58 Studebaker Golden Hawk is almost as rare, just a few hundred more produced.

    So the prettier, just as rare Studebaker is worth less than the ugly step-sister by half? That doesn't make sense. It's not a rational bid IMO.
  • bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,466
    berri said:

    As I recall, because they were a bit smaller and lighter those Rambler Rebel's were pretty quick for the time.

    Yeah they were. I understand that in the year they were produced ('57) the only American car that could beat their 0-60 time was a fuel-injected Corvette. The Rebel would beat a carburated one. In fact if I had been in the market for a car in '57, that level of performance in that innocent-looking package might even have motivated me to buy the fugly little sucker.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2018
    Lots of auction bids aren't rational, LOL. I've seen Golden Hawks bring more than $65.5K (half the amount of that Packard Hawk) a few times at auction.

    All Packard Hawks have a leather interior; only the 41 1957 Golden Hawk 400 models had that same interior.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Comparing Olds and Buick for 58 this is pretty hard to get past unless you're the chrome trim salesman that got the contract! LOL

    Lower models without all the extra crap were actually better looking.


    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    For scale, note that this 1958 Buick is occupying both lanes of Cooper Road near the entrance of the Westerville Mini-Golf.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    LOL.

    For general shape and lines, I think the Buick beats the Olds that year, but both are way overdecorated to my eyes, anyway. "Pudgy" was in for most mid-level makes in '58.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    I didn't see this, but heard that for whatever reason, Rachel Maddow showed this 1961 Lark commercial on her show last week. Could there be a creepier commercial? I love Studebakers of the sixties, but what were they thinking?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZycdudaUBs
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Those are the people who decided that a Packard-Studebaker merger would be a good idea. :p
Sign In or Register to comment.