Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

fintail · June 2018

What's the value of the subsidies we give the dairy industry? Those level playing fields go both way. Maybe if we didn't incentivize overproduction on corporate farms, those locals would be better off.

I doubt the powers that be have studied much history. This is all a distraction from their corrupt interests.

oldfarmer50 said:

Not a fan of tariffs but free trade can't be a one way street. The Canadian tariff on dairy products for example is over 250%. Lot of hard pressed farmers in my area could use a level playing field.

IIRC the Smoot-Haley tariff in the late 20s was a proximate cause of the Great Depression so I hope these current ones are just a negotiating tactic.

dino001 · June 2018

explorerx4 said:
@dino001,
What did your old country do to protect themselves from aggressive neighbors?
France tried, but failed(Maginot Line).

Poland has one of the highest military expenditures as part of GDP, but it had pretty low GDP. It had British and French security guarantees, but Chamberlain had no intention or real ability of making good on them, as he demonstrated year earlier in Munich and later in 1940. Truth to be told it was a young, poor and rather poorly run country that had misfortune to neighbor two worst genicidal maniacs a the same time. The leaders were more prepared for the Soviet threat and underestimated German until it was too apparent. This obviously happened to everybody else. Not sure how much more they could do, anyway, except perhaps joining the Axis, like Hungary, Slovakia, or Bulgaria. Or give in to demands, such as an exterritorial highway from main Germany to East Prussia. Didn’t do that and paid the price.

fintail · June 2018

Good points there. The concept of "western betrayal" is something definitely not taught in any American (or Canadian or British) schools. War was delcared in the name of nations then gladly handed over to the Soviet hordes, who then had a reign of terror for decades.

Regarding the Brits, they knew the gig was up in regards to their empire, selling out the last for American intervention was seen as a good investment, and it was. They are lucky German leadership was so idiotic.

Germany today in some ways is leader of the free world. Maybe that's a better role than leading in other ways.

dino001 said:

Not so sure if I want German military become large and competitive with American. History is not very favorable to that. Considering what happens to Germans every time they start feeling powerful, I think it may be worth to pay the price for Germany being not self suficient in terms of defense.
and nation sold (forfeit) by Roosevelt to Stalin as a part of war loot, you will understand what real losses are, not to mention a feel of bitter betrayal by an ally. It was only Ronald Reagan and his successful quest against the Soviets that erased this bitter feel and restored faith in America’s positive role among people in my old country. I don’t want to sound callous or insensitive, as I’m sure many of you have family members who bravely served or laid their lives in places they didn’t know for cause they might have not fully understood, but trusted their leaders it was important, but from where I stand, US got heck of a deal for those lost boys. If not the fact that every life is precious, on global scale one could say it was a real bargain.

fintail · June 2018

I find it amusing that automotive trade is a "national security" issue, but bailing out an electronics firm from Gyna, one who can easily use devices for unscrupulous purposes, is just fine. No connection to speeding up business deals for a certain daughter, nope.

dino001 said:
How about toilet tissue? Oh, if Gyna cuts that one off, we will certainly suffer unspeakable terror. Have to have tariffs to that, too.

fintail · June 2018

So it didn't happen? Thanks

You know tariffs often are born to compensate for subsidies, right? Will 45 address those American subsidies?

houdini1 said:

Do your own research, or stay uninformed.

driver100 · June 2018

oldfarmer50 said:

fintail said:
The profit margins must be so high on most of the highline imports, German anyway, that the makers could probably absorb most of a tariff and have that be it.

If the makers of cars that people actually desire want to play hardball, it would be amusing if they threatened to shut down their US manufacturing bases - say they'll pull out, demolish the facilities, and leave those low tax low amenity areas spinning in the wind. As the corrupt cowards at the helm want to go it alone anyway, maybe the rest of the world will adapt. Might put a fear of something in someone. Or if the regime wants to play, threaten to end the moronic 25 year private import rule, which was bought and paid for by MB.

Consumers never win in a trade war. A trade war has even less precedent going for it than trickle down theory. It's as if this regime is just a bunch of cronies and not people with actual real world experience. Oh wait...
Not a fan of tariffs but free trade can't be a one way street. The Canadian tariff on dairy products for example is over 250%. Lot of hard pressed farmers in my area could use a level playing field.

IIRC the Smoot-Haley tariff in the late 20s was a proximate cause of the Great Depression so I hope these current ones are just a negotiating tactic.

OF, all countries want to maintain certain tariffs, especially ones that feed their citizens. The reason being....exactly what has just happened. If a country such as Canada allowed it's food chain to collapse, we would be at the mercy of neighbors who can leave you high and dry one day.

The US also has huge tariffs on certain products to protect those industries....peanuts being 130% and tobacco 350%, and those aren't security issue products. Also, we could grow and export both of those products too.

stickguy · June 2018

I love all the history lessons you get here. Especially the realities that they ignore in school (since all history teaching is filtered, regardless of country).

stickguy · June 2018

I would have to check, but I think I may have gotten $.13 added to the refund. I hope I don't go to jail for not declaring 13 cents!

oldfarmer50 · June 2018

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

fintail said:
The profit margins must be so high on most of the highline imports, German anyway, that the makers could probably absorb most of a tariff and have that be it.

If the makers of cars that people actually desire want to play hardball, it would be amusing if they threatened to shut down their US manufacturing bases - say they'll pull out, demolish the facilities, and leave those low tax low amenity areas spinning in the wind. As the corrupt cowards at the helm want to go it alone anyway, maybe the rest of the world will adapt. Might put a fear of something in someone. Or if the regime wants to play, threaten to end the moronic 25 year private import rule, which was bought and paid for by MB.

Consumers never win in a trade war. A trade war has even less precedent going for it than trickle down theory. It's as if this regime is just a bunch of cronies and not people with actual real world experience. Oh wait...
Not a fan of tariffs but free trade can't be a one way street. The Canadian tariff on dairy products for example is over 250%. Lot of hard pressed farmers in my area could use a level playing field.

IIRC the Smoot-Haley tariff in the late 20s was a proximate cause of the Great Depression so I hope these current ones are just a negotiating tactic.
OF, all countries want to maintain certain tariffs, especially ones that feed their citizens. The reason being....exactly what has just happened. If a country such as Canada allowed it's food chain to collapse, we would be at the mercy of neighbors who can leave you high and dry one day.

The US also has huge tariffs on certain products to protect those industries....peanuts being 130% and tobacco 350%, and those aren't security issue products. Also, we could grow and export both of those products too.

Peanuts maybe, tobacco, not so much. (Although some special cigar tobacco is grown as far north as Connecticut.)

driver100 · June 2018

explorerx4 said:
Not a geopolitical expert, but it seems like Canada and Mexico are kind of ungrateful.
Trump is doing all the heavy lifting, trying to negotiate the denuclearization of North Korea.
Their missiles might be targeting Washington DC, but who knows how good their guidance systems are, they may hit Ottawa, Toronto, or Mexico City by mistake.
Canada and Mexico would get the benefit, much larger than any tariffs would cost, while doing nothing.

Ungrateful! If all countries were peaceful and democratic and just went about their business, the world would be a better place. Canada has 1/10th the population of the USA, we are a "friendly" country. You may need as many friendly countries as possible on your side one day....when China surpasses the US in GDP.

I think most, probably all democratic countries hope to provide the best possible life for their citizens......you do it by working together.

Think of a school grounds. The big kids are supposed to help the smaller kids, not try to bully them around......it is the decent way to be..

dino001 · June 2018

Not yet, this is for 2018. Lucky for you, it’s rounded to nearest dollar. Now, if you made somewhere else (like a bank) interest ending with .37 or more, then you should add it to create the next dollar. BTW, you’ll get a separate letter from the IRS explaining this interest as income for 2018.

driver100 · June 2018

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

fintail said:
The profit margins must be so high on most of the highline imports, German anyway, that the makers could probably absorb most of a tariff and have that be it.

If the makers of cars that people actually desire want to play hardball, it would be amusing if they threatened to shut down their US manufacturing bases - say they'll pull out, demolish the facilities, and leave those low tax low amenity areas spinning in the wind. As the corrupt cowards at the helm want to go it alone anyway, maybe the rest of the world will adapt. Might put a fear of something in someone. Or if the regime wants to play, threaten to end the moronic 25 year private import rule, which was bought and paid for by MB.

Consumers never win in a trade war. A trade war has even less precedent going for it than trickle down theory. It's as if this regime is just a bunch of cronies and not people with actual real world experience. Oh wait...
Not a fan of tariffs but free trade can't be a one way street. The Canadian tariff on dairy products for example is over 250%. Lot of hard pressed farmers in my area could use a level playing field.

IIRC the Smoot-Haley tariff in the late 20s was a proximate cause of the Great Depression so I hope these current ones are just a negotiating tactic.
OF, all countries want to maintain certain tariffs, especially ones that feed their citizens. The reason being....exactly what has just happened. If a country such as Canada allowed it's food chain to collapse, we would be at the mercy of neighbors who can leave you high and dry one day.

The US also has huge tariffs on certain products to protect those industries....peanuts being 130% and tobacco 350%, and those aren't security issue products. Also, we could grow and export both of those products too.
Peanuts maybe, tobacco, not so much. (Although some special cigar tobacco is grown as far north as Connecticut.)

We grow more tobacco than we can use...in Southern Ontario. Export it to China.

houdini1 · June 2018

fintail said:
Good points there. The concept of "western betrayal" is something definitely not taught in any American (or Canadian or British) schools. War was delcared in the name of nations then gladly handed over to the Soviet hordes, who then had a reign of terror for decades.

Regarding the Brits, they knew the gig was up in regards to their empire, selling out the last for American intervention was seen as a good investment, and it was. They are lucky German leadership was so idiotic.

Germany today in some ways is leader of the free world. Maybe that's a better role than leading in other ways.

dino001 said:

Not so sure if I want German military become large and competitive with American. History is not very favorable to that. Considering what happens to Germans every time they start feeling powerful, I think it may be worth to pay the price for Germany being not self suficient in terms of defense.
and nation sold (forfeit) by Roosevelt to Stalin as a part of war loot, you will understand what real losses are, not to mention a feel of bitter betrayal by an ally. It was only Ronald Reagan and his successful quest against the Soviets that erased this bitter feel and restored faith in America’s positive role among people in my old country. I don’t want to sound callous or insensitive, as I’m sure many of you have family members who bravely served or laid their lives in places they didn’t know for cause they might have not fully understood, but trusted their leaders it was important, but from where I stand, US got heck of a deal for those lost boys. If not the fact that every life is precious, on global scale one could say it was a real bargain.

Leader of the free world? That would be the United States. I thought Germany was still in the EU and reporting to Brussels. That doesn't sound like much of a leader of anything. The EU President was the 8th member at the G7. I wonder what he was doing there.

President Trump's proposal included eliminating tariffs, subsidies, and all other trade barriers. You really should do some reading on the subject.

oldfarmer50 · June 2018

fintail said:
What's the value of the subsidies we give the dairy industry? Those level playing fields go both way. Maybe if we didn't incentivize overproduction on corporate farms, those locals would be better off.

I doubt the powers that be have studied much history. This is all a distraction from their corrupt interests.

oldfarmer50 said:

Not a fan of tariffs but free trade can't be a one way street. The Canadian tariff on dairy products for example is over 250%. Lot of hard pressed farmers in my area could use a level playing field.

IIRC the Smoot-Haley tariff in the late 20s was a proximate cause of the Great Depression so I hope these current ones are just a negotiating tactic.

Not a fan of corporate farms either but there aren't many of those in upstate NY. Usually farms with less than 500 head who get less for their milk that it costs to produce.

Overproduction has been an issues since the 1930s, maybe longer.

driver100 · June 2018

houdini1 said:

fintail said:
Good points there. The concept of "western betrayal" is something definitely not taught in any American (or Canadian or British) schools. War was delcared in the name of nations then gladly handed over to the Soviet hordes, who then had a reign of terror for decades.

Regarding the Brits, they knew the gig was up in regards to their empire, selling out the last for American intervention was seen as a good investment, and it was. They are lucky German leadership was so idiotic.

Germany today in some ways is leader of the free world. Maybe that's a better role than leading in other ways.

dino001 said:

Not so sure if I want German military become large and competitive with American. History is not very favorable to that. Considering what happens to Germans every time they start feeling powerful, I think it may be worth to pay the price for Germany being not self suficient in terms of defense.
and nation sold (forfeit) by Roosevelt to Stalin as a part of war loot, you will understand what real losses are, not to mention a feel of bitter betrayal by an ally. It was only Ronald Reagan and his successful quest against the Soviets that erased this bitter feel and restored faith in America’s positive role among people in my old country. I don’t want to sound callous or insensitive, as I’m sure many of you have family members who bravely served or laid their lives in places they didn’t know for cause they might have not fully understood, but trusted their leaders it was important, but from where I stand, US got heck of a deal for those lost boys. If not the fact that every life is precious, on global scale one could say it was a real bargain.

Leader of the free world? That would be the United States. I thought Germany was still in the EU and reporting to Brussels. That doesn't sound like much of a leader of anything. The EU President was the 8th member at the G7. I wonder what he was doing there.

President Trump's proposal included eliminating tariffs, subsidies, and all other trade barriers. You really should do some reading on the subject.

He proposed it...but then he applied tariffs to steel and aluminum.
Who knows what he means when he says anything.....what he says is meaningless!

dino001 · June 2018

I don’t think you fully understand concept of European Union. “Reporting to Brussels”? Not exactly. Who do you think occupies key positions in EU bureaucracy, financial in particular?

dino001 · June 2018

driver100 said:

He proposed it...but then he applied tariffs to steel and aluminum.
Who knows what he means when he says anything.....what he says is meaningless!

He says fifteen things a day and means none of them.

ab348 · June 2018

oldfarmer50 said:

Not a fan of tariffs but free trade can't be a one way street. The Canadian tariff on dairy products for example is over 250%. Lot of hard pressed farmers in my area could use a level playing field.

Canadian dairy farmers will tell you that is because of the massive US federal subsidies paid to prop up the dairy industry there. True or not? I do not know.

fintail · June 2018

This isn't the pinnacle free world. Not with a war on the press, simmering racial tensions, questionable praetorian sector, burgeoning corruption and cronyism/nepotism, an insane pay-for-play residency system, declining HDIs, stronger lobbyist culture than ever, etc.

The White House is now the western campus of the Kremlin, as the leader of the "free" openly admires dictators such as Jinping, Putin, and Duterte. That's a heck of a way to lead.

Be generous, share some of that reading material. Do I have to say please?

houdini1 said:

Leader of the free world? That would be the United States. I thought Germany was still in the EU and reporting to Brussels. That doesn't sound like much of a leader of anything. The EU President was the 8th member at the G7. I wonder what he was doing there.

President Trump's proposal included eliminating tariffs, subsidies, and all other trade barriers. You really should do some reading on the subject.

fintail · June 2018

Unfortunately, your friendly local farmers are competing with the subsidized corporations. I am not sure if Canadian farmers should have to compete with that, or if they are the real issue.

Funny thing, over here, Canadians have headed south on shopping trips for decades, and one thing they stock up on is milk. I wonder if that will continue, more than a few hurt feelings lately.

oldfarmer50 said:

Not a fan of corporate farms either but there aren't many of those in upstate NY. Usually farms with less than 500 head who get less for their milk that it costs to produce.

Overproduction has been an issues since the 1930s, maybe longer.

driver100 · June 2018

ab348 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Not a fan of tariffs but free trade can't be a one way street. The Canadian tariff on dairy products for example is over 250%. Lot of hard pressed farmers in my area could use a level playing field.
Canadian dairy farmers will tell you that is because of the massive US federal subsidies paid to prop up the dairy industry there. True or not? I do not know.

True!
, U.S. subsidies to dairy producers represent about 40% of American dairy farmer incomes, when it reaches them. These subsidies come directly from taxpayers' pockets. Without that hidden support American dairy products would be much more costly for consumers, and much more expensive than the equivalent Canadian product.

driver100 · June 2018

fintail said:
Unfortunately, your friendly local farmers are competing with the subsidized corporations. I am not sure if Canadian farmers should have to compete with that, or if they are the real issue.

Funny thing, over here, Canadians have headed south on shopping trips for decades, and one thing they stock up on is milk. I wonder if that will continue, more than a few hurt feelings lately.

oldfarmer50 said:

Not a fan of corporate farms either but there aren't many of those in upstate NY. Usually farms with less than 500 head who get less for their milk that it costs to produce.

Overproduction has been an issues since the 1930s, maybe longer.

There are Canadians who say they don't want to vacation in the U.S. anymore! Some will try not to buy things made in the U.S.

qbrozen · June 2018

driver100 said:

Unfortunately, your friendly local farmers are competing with the subsidized corporations. I am not sure if Canadian farmers should have to compete with that, or if they are the real issue. Funny thing, over here, Canadians have headed south on shopping trips for decades, and one thing they stock up on is milk. I wonder if that will continue, more than a few hurt feelings lately.
Not a fan of corporate farms either but there aren't many of those in upstate NY. Usually farms with less than 500 head who get less for their milk that it costs to produce. Overproduction has been an issues since the 1930s, maybe longer.

There are Canadians who say they don't want to vacation in the U.S. anymore!

Woohoo!!

Tourists be gone!!

houdini1 · June 2018

I would like to thank our hosts for letting some of us discuss politics a little bit. I'm done now and ready to get back to cars, (hot) water heaters, refrigerators, and other items of more importance.

abacomike · June 2018

driver100 said:

Unfortunately, your friendly local farmers are competing with the subsidized corporations. I am not sure if Canadian farmers should have to compete with that, or if they are the real issue. Funny thing, over here, Canadians have headed south on shopping trips for decades, and one thing they stock up on is milk. I wonder if that will continue, more than a few hurt feelings lately.
Not a fan of corporate farms either but there aren't many of those in upstate NY. Usually farms with less than 500 head who get less for their milk that it costs to produce. Overproduction has been an issues since the 1930s, maybe longer.

There are Canadians who say they don't want to vacation in the U.S. anymore! Some will try not to buy things made in the U.S.

Is there a Condo for sale in the Tampa area on the horizon, driver?

All kidding aside, it’s important that we realize that Canada and the US are like Siamese Twins joined at the hip. We need each other to survive in a free democratic society and economically as well. I love Canada and consider Canadians as members of our immediate family.

Things will settle down - all families have spats now and then!

benjaminh · June 2018

If—and I realize it's a very big if—an import tax of maybe 25% is suddenly charged on German cars, how do people here think it might play out. Specifically, what would be the likely reactions of German car companies, the German people, the German government, the American people (consumers in general, as well as people who like, own, or buy German cars), etc.

Roughly what percentage of BMWs sold in the US are made in the US? Even though BMW's factory in South Carolina is huge, more than half the vehicles made there are for export. I think all BMW sedans sold in the US are imported from Germany at this point. My guess is that more than a third of all BMWs sold in the US are imported, and a 25% extra charge, if passed on to consumers, would likely mean that very few people would buy those models after that, instead buying a competing Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, or whatever (assuming they don't get a 25% charge too, which I realize is not safe to assume).

Roughly what percentage of Mercedes vehicles sold in the US are built in the US? The MB factory in Alabama is also huge, but my guess is that even with that about half of all Mercedes vehicles are imported.

There is no Audi factory in the US. Audi might be the hardest hit if this comes to pass.

I still doubt somehow that it will happen, but since the charges on steel and aluminum seem to be going forward, I have to admit that I already guessed wrong about that....

abacomike · June 2018

We need to start concentrating on more important issues facing humanity - like what did Toyota do to the front end of the 2019 Avalon? Good grief - Toyota must have a thing for grillework and front end styling lately. Between Lexus and Toyota, it seems that those front ends are less sturdy in a collision than other manufacturer’s cars. Even Ford has gone the root of huge grilles.

These new front ends are threatening the evolution of human “taste” and “vision - two important senses.

tbirdmarco · June 2018

Injoyed reading all from the past few days thunderbird I s home and in my drive way runs grate

benjaminh · June 2018

If a c. 25% tax on imported German vehicles is implemented, in the short run it might bring a surge of sales. I assume that all imported German vehicles already in the US, or in the pipeline with a Monroney sticker, wouldn't have this tax. That supply might normally last a few months or so. But if suddenly anyone wanting to buy, say, an Audi Q5, realizes that the msrp of c. $55k is about to become an msrp of almost $70k—well, they might decide to buy sooner rather than later. In the short run, it might even be a boon for dealers of German makes in the US....?

PS The Audi Q5, I see, is actually made in Mexico:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170501/OEM/305019962/at-audi-plant-labor-tensions-stir

If a tax was also put on vehicles imported from Mexico, perhaps Audi could just absorb some of it. According to this article, at the Audi plant in Mexico "workers are making only about $15 a day."

dino001 · June 2018

Talking about some interesting unsavory behavior, I recommend to everybody watching a 6-part documentary series "Dirty Money" on Netflix (original production). One of the episodes is about Canadian maple syrup cartel (so-called federation) in Quebec, its incredibly heavy-handed attitude toward its own members (e.g. demanding credit card receipts and utility bills I guess to prove they were adhering to production quotas) and others who dare to stand up to them (the Federation is legally entrenched in the Province law, essentially making outsiders criminals prosecuted by the state). How's that for free market? The movie also describes a bizarre case of a huge theft from their "stategic warehouse" depository. Who knew maple syrup can evoke such emotions and behavior? IIRC there was something unsavory going on with that stuff also here in the US (Vermont), but mostly related to "counterfeiting" the Vermont product, I think, don't remember the details. Who knew this sweet stuff can turn people so bitter. It doesn't really touch me personally, I don't even use the syrup myself, my sweet stuff of choice is honey, fruit preserves and raw fruit (and sugar of course).

I knew before that Canadians with all their soft talk and mild manners created some of the most aggressive cartels that can rival OPEC in their global reach and tactics (e.g. Canpotex), but I had no idea about maple syrup issues.

https://www.netflix.com/title/80118100

stickguy · June 2018

Boeing would be real unhappy when suddenly they got retaliated against and plane orders were cancelled. Airbus though, they would like it.

There are always consequences to actions. And sadly, way too often governments don’t think big picture (macro) when reacting to a specific issue (micro). Say, pouring money into saving some coal jobs, while costing many more in solar. Might help a small picket of voters, but in whole, be a negative to the country.

Way too much politics in government!

graphicguy · June 2018

Dino.....I’m sure we all agree, we’re glad you’re here. I go to Markham a lot as we have a large office there. I truly don’t feel there’s much of a difference between Canada and the U.S. (aside from Quebec, where I sometimes don’t understand the French speakers).

My view on the trade war? I have two issues......

-the first is we (and no one else) can’t believe this President. The untruths that have been spoken, and the smearing of the truth, is mind boggling....even by politician standards. So, if I can’t believe him, as a citizen, how else can anyone from another country believe him? Kinda like trying to buy (or sell) a car. Dealer says you have a deal, or the buyer agrees to the deal, only to find out they were lying and no one has a deal. Instead, there are a lot of hurt feelings.

That brings me to the 2nd point, if this administration is willing to stab our friends in the back (Germany, Canada, etc), why would they ever trust us?

Tariffs on steel, cars, or anything else for that matter, will not be good for us. Prices will rise on those goods, and we’ll be stuck paying it, which in turn will lead to rampant inflation. Plus, we lose the trust and friendship of other countries.

Seems someone likes being in bed with despots from Russia and North Korea instead of treating our friends well.

None of this is good, for the U.S. or any of our other friends.

Back to cars, while I don’t know if there’s a BMW, Audi or Mercedes in my future, but I sure would like to have the opportunity to buy one without paying someone’s “ego tax” when the tariffs are applied.

graphicguy · June 2018

abacomike said:
We need to start concentrating on more important issues facing humanity - like what did Toyota do to the front end of the 2019 Avalon? Good grief - Toyota must have a thing for grillework and front end styling lately. Between Lexus and Toyota, it seems that those front ends are less sturdy in a collision than other manufacturer’s cars. Even Ford has gone the root of huge grilles.

These new front ends are threatening the evolution of human “taste” and “vision - two important senses.

Mike.....I seem to be the one in this group who likes “big front ends”. I liked the “beak” on the Acura TL. I like the grill on the Avalon. I realize I’m alone in my front end fascination, however.

houdini1 · June 2018

abacomike said:
We need to start concentrating on more important issues facing humanity - like what did Toyota do to the front end of the 2019 Avalon? Good grief - Toyota must have a thing for grillework and front end styling lately. Between Lexus and Toyota, it seems that those front ends are less sturdy in a collision than other manufacturer’s cars. Even Ford has gone the root of huge grilles.

These new front ends are threatening the evolution of human “taste” and “vision - two important senses.

As a long time Lexus fan and owner, I couldn't agree more concerning recent grill work. Fortunately our current two vehicles are pre crazy grill days and the grills are just slightly uglier than most cars. No plans for a new one until a recall is issued to replace the grills due to ugliness.

jipster · June 2018

Mike.....I seem to be the one in this group who likes “big front ends”. I liked the “beak” on the Acura TL

Everyone else likes "big rear ends"?

abacomike · June 2018

graphicguy said:

We need to start concentrating on more important issues facing humanity - like what did Toyota do to the front end of the 2019 Avalon? Good grief - Toyota must have a thing for grillework and front end styling lately. Between Lexus and Toyota, it seems that those front ends are less sturdy in a collision than other manufacturer’s cars. Even Ford has gone the root of huge grilles.

These new front ends are threatening the evolution of human “taste” and “vision - two important senses.
Mike.....I seem to be the one in this group who likes “big front ends”. I liked the “beak” on the Acura TL. I like the grill on the Avalon. I realize I’m alone in my front end fascination, however.

There are leg lovers, rear end lovers, hip lovers and front end lovers. It takes all kinds. So we now know your anatomical preferences, GG!

driver100 · June 2018

abacomike said:

driver100 said:

Unfortunately, your friendly local farmers are competing with the subsidized corporations. I am not sure if Canadian farmers should have to compete with that, or if they are the real issue.

Funny thing, over here, Canadians have headed south on shopping trips for decades, and one thing they stock up on is milk. I wonder if that will continue, more than a few hurt feelings lately.

Not a fan of corporate farms either but there aren't many of those in upstate NY. Usually farms with less than 500 head who get less for their milk that it costs to produce.

Overproduction has been an issues since the 1930s, maybe longer.

There are Canadians who say they don't want to vacation in the U.S. anymore! Some will try not to buy things made in the U.S.

Is there a Condo for sale in the Tampa area on the horizon, driver?

All kidding aside, it’s important that we realize that Canada and the US are like Siamese Twins joined at the hip. We need each other to survive in a free democratic society and economically as well. I love Canada and consider Canadians as members of our immediate family.

Things will settle down - all families have spats now and then

!

We will keep our place in Florida for the foreseeable future, and hoping this whole thing will blow over. All families do have spats and this could be just that....however, it is totally uncalled for and it makes no sense. Tariffs will cost millions of jobs....in both countries. The auto industry is interwoven, sometimes parts cross the border 8 times before they are finally used in a finished product.

Another big question is....who is going to invest in factories....not knowing what the rules will be from one year to the next? Chaos is not good for business or for the nations security....this is bizarre.

dino001 · June 2018

I was never fan of those huge grilles and lights, especially if in chrome. Somehow looked alright on cars from 50s and 60s, but today it's not my thing. I don't decide on purchase by looks, but those things are not helping. Most GM, now Toyota, Ford, some others.

dino001 · June 2018

benjaminh said:
If a c. 25% tax on imported German vehicles is implemented, in the short run it might bring a surge of sales. I assume that all imported German vehicles already in the US, or in the pipeline with a Monroney sticker, wouldn't have this tax. That supply might normally last a few months or so. But if suddenly anyone wanting to buy, say, an Audi Q5, realizes that the msrp of c. $55k is about to become an msrp of almost $70k—well, they might decide to buy sooner rather than later. In the short run, it might even be a boon for dealers of German makes in the US....?

PS The Audi Q5, I see, is actually made in Mexico:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20170501/OEM/305019962/at-audi-plant-labor-tensions-stir

If a tax was also put on vehicles imported from Mexico, perhaps Audi could just absorb some of it. According to this article, at the Audi plant in Mexico "workers are making only about $15 a day."

Can you say... ADM?

driver100 · June 2018

The front on the new Acura's look pretty good.

Having a big medallion in the middle always helps (of course Mercedes started it

)

fintail · June 2018

I prefer the MB way:

driver100 said:

Having a big medallion in the middle always helps (of course Mercedes started it )

fintail · June 2018

It's visual pollution. 90s cars will eventually become classic designs when compared to overstyled new models. It makes me pine for the old Lexus style of being an updated parallel universe MB. The pretense of sport and aggression is a big trend these days, when being fake and pretending to be tough is seen in every element of society.

abacomike said:
We need to start concentrating on more important issues facing humanity - like what did Toyota do to the front end of the 2019 Avalon? Good grief - Toyota must have a thing for grillework and front end styling lately. Between Lexus and Toyota, it seems that those front ends are less sturdy in a collision than other manufacturer’s cars. Even Ford has gone the root of huge grilles.

These new front ends are threatening the evolution of human “taste” and “vision - two important senses.

iluvmysephia1 · June 2018

2017 Mitsubishi Lancer

I prefer me some Mitsubishi Lancer for a front end.

snakeweasel · June 2018

benjaminh said:

If a c. 25% tax on imported German vehicles is implemented, in the short run it might bring a surge of sales. I assume that all imported German vehicles already in the US, or in the pipeline with a Monroney sticker, wouldn't have this tax. That supply might normally last a few months or so. But if suddenly anyone wanting to buy, say, an Audi Q5, realizes that the msrp of c. $55k is about to become an msrp of almost $70k—well, they might decide to buy sooner rather than later. In the short run, it might even be a boon for dealers of German makes in the US....? PS The Audi Q5, I see, is actually made in Mexico: http://www.autonews.com/article/20170501/OEM/305019962/at-audi-plant-labor-tensions-stir If a tax was also put on vehicles imported from Mexico, perhaps Audi could just absorb some of it. According to this article, at the Audi plant in Mexico "workers are making only about $15 a day."

FWIW a tax on something is usually paid by both the consumer and producer. It usually plays out as how an increase in price affects the demand and how a decrease in revenue affects the supply. Typically a tax on necessities is paid mostly by the consumer while a tax on luxuries is shifted towards the producer.

in short for something like a BMW where a price increases from say 50K to 62.5K causing a large drop in sales the producer may opt to reduce the price to maximize overall profits by selling more cars. So with a 25% tariff the price would increase by far less than 25%.

In rare cases it kills an industry.

iluvmysephia1 · June 2018

2016 Scion iA

And, not ta leave this baby out, the Scion iA, aka now the Toyota Yaris iA, front end.

driver100 · June 2018

One tennis friend always buys a Lexus RX....his newest one is a 2016;

His previous one was a 2012. He wishes the new one looked like the 2012 one....and I agree, the 12 looks better.

tommister2 · June 2018

driver100 said:

Unfortunately, your friendly local farmers are competing with the subsidized corporations. I am not sure if Canadian farmers should have to compete with that, or if they are the real issue. Funny thing, over here, Canadians have headed south on shopping trips for decades, and one thing they stock up on is milk. I wonder if that will continue, more than a few hurt feelings lately.
Not a fan of corporate farms either but there aren't many of those in upstate NY. Usually farms with less than 500 head who get less for their milk that it costs to produce. Overproduction has been an issues since the 1930s, maybe longer.

There are Canadians who say they don't want to vacation in the U.S. anymore! Some will try not to buy things made in the U.S.

Maybe you could arrange for the geese to stay in Canada too

driver100 · June 2018

I think the 2012 looks even better if it is a color other than white:

driver100 · June 2018

tommister2 said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:
Unfortunately, your friendly local farmers are competing with the subsidized corporations. I am not sure if Canadian farmers should have to compete with that, or if they are the real issue.

Funny thing, over here, Canadians have headed south on shopping trips for decades, and one thing they stock up on is milk. I wonder if that will continue, more than a few hurt feelings lately.

oldfarmer50 said:

Not a fan of corporate farms either but there aren't many of those in upstate NY. Usually farms with less than 500 head who get less for their milk that it costs to produce.

Overproduction has been an issues since the 1930s, maybe longer.

There are Canadians who say they don't want to vacation in the U.S. anymore! Some will try not to buy things made in the U.S.

Maybe you could arrange for the geese to stay in Canada too

Put tariffs on the geese!

driver100 · June 2018

iluvmysephia1 said:

2017 Mitsubishi Lancer

I prefer me some Mitsubishi Lancer for a front end.

Agree....Mitsu has nice front ends!

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