A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

Or those keyway-type rear brake drums that you had to pull off with a special tool--they could let loose with terrifying force.

You could get a pretty good shock from a Tesla, too.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

guitarzan said:
I talked with my new owner/tech about skills. He has 50 applications sitting on his desk. He said he will ask in an interview, "What do you know about troubleshooting drivability problems?" Aka this is when it is not a clear cut repair but he owner says, "Every two days it does this." None of the applicants know anything about troubleshooting such. He is open to hiring new techs right now but based on this finding new techs from an army of applicants is extremely difficult.

Here is another familiar one from this thread: A customer asked about a repair and he told them he had to troubleshoot it and it may take X time. "You're going to charge me for troubleshooting my car?&*! My old mechanic never did that." "Well ma'am, he may not have itemized it on your receipt, but it is in there, somewhere." An uphill battle for sure.

Let's re-organize that a bit guitarzan. Look at those two paragraphs side by side and see if they paint a picture.

guitarzan said:

A tech may tell him they want the job, paying $35/hour performing brake jobs, this and that. He said that does not warrant $35/ hour but he needs a troubleshooter for these wages.

35x40x52 = $72,800. That would be pretty good in some areas, and the tech would have to still live with mom and dad in others...A diagnostic tech should be able to command more everywhere.

guitarzan said:

The conversation sounded just like Cardoc. Also it sounds like this guy does everything exactly the opposite of what dealers do LOL.

LOL Indeed.....

guitarzan said:

He talked about the massive amount of new information, new problems, and how it is all constantly changing.

ADAS, Advanced Driver Assistance Systems are pushing the technology envelope way beyond anyone of us could have predicted just five years ago. That's on top of the advances in engines and transmissions, hybrids, plug in hybrids, electrics. I study a lot to do what I do and every day the list of things that I have yet to learn about keeps getting longer...

guitarzan said:

He has a customer with some old car, I think a 60's Camaro. He told the guy to leave the car for several days. The guy was upset with the delay. He told him that he does not even touch carburetors anymore and needs to spend some time on it, poking around, just remembering how this thing is supposed to be set, before he can tune it. "It will come right back to me, but it is not there right now!"

Gravy, that's something I would do just to take a break from the hard stuff.

guitarzan said:

He talked about a Ford F150 spark plug problem, (I think this was mentioned here.) He says that soaking in penetrating oil overnight will loosen them and also soften the carbon deposits and keep the carbon gooey. Customer's are not patient with this extra time, and he has to painstakingly convince them that it mitigates the risk of the plugs breaking if he just attacked them, which would cost the customer a lot more.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
You could get a pretty good shock from a Tesla, too.

Only once....

thecardoc3 · June 2018

guitarzan said:
It is very sad the injury that man suffered. To your points Doc about analyzing a vehicle or repair from the very beginning and not making any assumptions going in, it seems that anyone going under an unknown vehicle for the first time must approach it with caution or risk this. Is that advice included in tech training?

We cover safety all the time, it's definitely way more about setting the vehicle on the hoist correctly and inspecting the hoist to make sure that everything is working correctly. A crossmember breaking while the truck is in the air? That's not something that anyone could really predict would happen. Sometimes you're just in the wrong place at the wrong time

thecardoc3 · June 2018

Some truth, with some not so true as the author takes a shot at making it more difficult to communicate with vehicle owners. https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/ownership/32-lies-your-mechanic-has-told-you/ss-AAxfiUh#image=29

Interesting the sources that the author quotes....

thecardoc3 · June 2018

I just visited their site. Scroll through this one and hold them to the same standard that shops and techs are held to. One mistake and they are dishonest, etc.... https://blog.cheapism.com/car-maintenance-tips-14391/#image=5

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

Some dubious advice there as well.

guitarzan · June 2018

Doc, we must completely discount most media now. That blog is nothing but a search engine dream, a team of people sitting around writing slideshows and spending most of their efforts in web optimization and advertising. To them, they did good as you found it easily.

I would bet that most of those slideshows, on all topics, are inferior advice to the traditional Betty Crocker Cookbook or [insert a quality subject matter reference material here.] I know this does not help the cause, but for example that blog illustrates how bad information is now a universal problem.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

If I had "found them" on their own site that would be one thing, but MSN featured that " advice article". Did you look through it and notice how many times it refenced Edmunds as a source? https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/ownership/32-lies-your-mechanic-has-told-you/ss-AAxfiUh#image=33

kyfdx · June 2018

Don't worry... normal people can't stand to read articles on a clickbait website like that..

thecardoc3 · June 2018

A little travel back in time. I was looking for something else when I found this that I had written back in 2001.
Slightly edited, word processing and spell checker has come a long way since 2001...…

Jan 6th 2001......

>O.K., here's the vehicle- '94 Caravan 3.3 O/D
>
>Complaint-Extended crank and hard start in the morning.
>Runs fine otherwise.

Piece of cake when approached with a plan. It's important
to understand the system you are facing's characteristics.
Chrysler looks for ignition reference in order to power up
the fuel pump during cranking, but otherwise has a two
second priming pulse upon first turning the ignition on. A
hard or extended crank may mean you have ten seconds to
analyze this, so all of your testing has to be completed
before the car starts. You know you need compression, spark
and fuel to run, and since once this starts it runs fine,
compression is not a concern, that leaves fuel and spark.

Here is what I would do, hook up an ST-125 to check for
spark.

Install fuel pressure gage.

Connect scope to watch ignition command, being on the
ground side you get to see system voltage during cranking,
as well as the computers ability to pull all the way to
ground. This step checks the ASD relay as well since power
to the DIS system is through the switched side of the ASD
relay.

Connect current probe to monitor injector on-time during
cranking.

Hook up scan tool to see parameters such as CTS, TPS, (ACT
if used) MAP, etc. I would most likely take a snapshot of
the cranking event.

I would also hook up scope lead to the fuel pump relay, to
monitor available fuel pump voltage.

All the connections for testing will take under ten minutes
to install, and from there have an assistant crank the
engine to allow you to monitor the start-up.

>History-Good customer, we haven't done much work to this
>vehicle other than a fuel pump (from Chrysler) about 1 year
>ago.

Basically irrelevant at this point. Treat this as if you
have never seen it before, even if the pump was replaced
yesterday.

>What do you want to check first? Remember, you got .3
>diagnosis so make it snappy ;-)

Plenty of time, but still worth the regular diagnostic fee.
There are possibilities that will escape the initial
diagnostics as outlined here. By knowing what they are you
have already taken the first steps towards diagnosing them too.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

Can you check the fuel pressure first in the "ON" position, prior to cranking?

thecardoc3 · June 2018

Take notice of the mention of LSPI in this article.

https://noln.net/2018/04/01/on-the-cusp-of-change-sn-0w-16-gf-6-and-more/

thecardoc3 · June 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Can you check the fuel pressure first in the "ON" position, prior to cranking?

Usually we can. There is a two second priming pulse that occurs when the key is first turned on. What we normally look for isn't that the fuel pressure necessarily get's to the specification, we just want to see the priming pulse occur and produce some pressure.

BTW with GDI (gasoline direct injection) systems, a priming pulse often occurs when the drivers door is opened and the dome light comes on even before the key is inserted in the ignition.

A lot has changed since I wrote that outline back in 2001. Today technicians all around the country are taught to develop and follow some type of a game plan when undertaking diagnostics. Back then I could measure fuel pump current but since I only had two, two channel scopes that was usually left for the "second round". Today that is something that would be measured during the first attempt to experience the symptom.

roadburner · June 2018

thecardoc3 said:
Take notice of the mention of LSPI in this article.

https://noln.net/2018/04/01/on-the-cusp-of-change-sn-0w-16-gf-6-and-more/

I always use the oil specified by the manufacturer(in my case, LL-01 and/or LL-01FE in everything but the Wrangler) and drive on down the road. I have no sympathy for owners who refuse to open their owners manual to learn how to properly maintain their vehicles.

isellhondas · June 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Or those keyway-type rear brake drums that you had to pull off with a special tool--they could let loose with terrifying force.

You could get a pretty good shock from a Tesla, too.

Oh Yeah, those miserable Chrysler rear drums that required that special puller to get them off. You would attach the puller, beat the hell out of it with a hammer and nothing would happen.....UNTIL....it decided to let go!

thecardoc3 · June 2018

roadburner said:

I always use the oil specified by the manufacturer(in my case, LL-01 and/or LL-01FE in everything but the Wrangler) and drive on down the road. I have no sympathy for owners who refuse to open their owners manual to learn how to properly maintain their vehicles.

Can't wait to see how long it takes BMW owners and shops to adjust to the new standards. LL-12 and LL-14

Here is VW's new specification, a 0W20 that is thinner than GM's dexos1 2nd gen.
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/1FAF3A237AAB4FBB80258216004C9C07/$File/BPXE-AD8F38.pdf

roadburner · June 2018

No big deal; crack open the owners manual and use the specified oil...

0patience · June 2018

About the tools. Sorry, been swamped lately so got behind on reading.

I buy Williams, Armstrong, a little Mac and Matco (not much, cause no dealer here), some basic Craftsman Pro tools and the Snap-on tools I buy are specialty tools that are hard to get from other sources.

Williams is made by Snap-on and 1/3 the price. The Williams 100P-8MD Screwdriver Set is about $70 versus the $140 Snap-on set and are identical to the old school (mid 90s) Snap-on screwdrivers.
Sometimes, I have to buy specialty tools and often Snap-on and OTC are the only manufacturers, so in order to have the tools to do the job, you pay the price and buy the expensive tools.

Just like air tools. I almost exclusively buy Ingersoll Rand. I have had Snap-on, Mac, Matco and Craftsman air tools and have only had good luck with the IR tools.
Although, I do have one Mac air wrench that is identical to my IR, that has lasted me 15 years so far.
In my younger years, I went through die grinders every 6 months, until I bought an IR. The IR die grinder lasted 7 years until I dropped it from a large excavator and it broke the housing.

There are many inexpensive (relatively) tools available that work find.
Snappy, Mac and Matco do not have to be the only tools purchased by techs.
Go look at an older heavy equipment tech's tools and I'd be willing to bet that half his tools are not Snappy, Mac or Matco. Why? Cause the older techs realize that wasting money on premi prems is often wasting money.

Don't get me wrong, my ratcheting screwdrivers are all Snap-on (Ok, one is Caterpillar branded, but made by Snap-on). Why? Because simply, they are the most comfortable and work the best for me.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

roadburner said:
No big deal; crack open the owners manual and use the specified oil...

It should be that easy, but here we go again with the Nay-sayers that will influence some consumers perspectives.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4235130/EDGE_Professional_LL_IV_FE_0W-

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

Yeah, why listen to all those nerdy engineers? "Brad" from Cleveland knows way more than they do about oil.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Yeah, why listen to all those nerdy engineers? "Brad" from Cleveland knows way more than they do about oil.

And so did Mr. Reed...…...

roadburner · June 2018

thecardoc3 said:

roadburner said:
No big deal; crack open the owners manual and use the specified oil...
It should be that easy, but here we go again with the Nay-sayers that will influence some consumers perspectives.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4235130/EDGE_Professional_LL_IV_FE_0W-

Hearing people discuss oil "weights" drives me up the wall; viscosity is the correct term- and the W in multi-viscosity oils stands for winter.

guitarzan · June 2018

roadburner said:

Hearing people discuss oil "weights" drives me up the wall; viscosity is the correct term- and the W in multi-viscosity oils stands for winter.

The numbers 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, these are not viscosities but a completely different numeric representation of a viscosity range. Thus it is incorrect to say "my car takes a viscosity of 30" or "10W-30". For accuracy you would have to say, "the viscosity range specified cold is 10, and at operating temperature is 30." Yuck what a mess of a conversation.

That would even be confusing to people as they think of "10W-30" as a single designation and not a range. That is why to me, referring to the marking on the bottle as "weight", aka "the weight is 10W-30" is a fine designation that everyone understands in conversation. If the designation on the bottle "10W-30" does not have a technical name, then "weight" might as well be it now after extensive popular use as such.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

roadburner said:

Hearing people discuss oil "weights" drives me up the wall; viscosity is the correct term- and the W in multi-viscosity oils stands for winter.

Then your going to love this. You cannot look at the numbers on a bottle of oil and predict the viscosity of the product. The numbers reflect the grade of the product, not it's viscosity. The grades are based on viscosity ranges measured in centipoise for the "W" grade rating and centistokes for the straight grade.

That's why a 5W30 that was dexos approved was as thin as a 5W20 while a 5W30 that was LL-01 approved was thicker than an API 10W40. LL-01FE XW30 makes an equivalent grade of oil thinner than a product that could vie for dexos approval, while both are thinner than an API aproved product that does not have any other O.E. approvals. There were major changes in engine design made by the Europeans in order to go from high HTHS products to very low HTHS products.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

How's that possible if the final number, 20, 30, 40, whatever, means that the oil must fall within certain viscosity limits at 100 C. ?

thecardoc3 · June 2018

It's also tested at 150 C (302f). 100C doesn't tell the whole story. You have to use the HTHS at 150C to evaluate how thick an oil is based on it's approvals.
.............. 100C Minimum...…... 100C Maximum ……... 150C
Grade 20 5.6 ……... ……. <9.3 ……....……...... >2.6

Grade 30 9.3 ………..... <12.5 …………………. >2.9 API

Grade 30 9.3 ………….. <12.5 …………………. 2.9<3.5 ACEA A1/B1, A5/B5

Grade 30 9.3 …………… <12.5 ………………… >3.5 ACEA A3/B3 A3/B4

Grade 40 12.5 .................. <16.3 ........................ >2.9 API

To put this into perspective Grades 50 and 60 are only required to be over 3.7 at 150C.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

A tech shared this while noting this was written in 1990. I can't even imagine how many pages it would be today.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

That would take 11, 625 hours or almost 4 years.

roadburner · June 2018

I guess I'm getting old and crotchety, but as a DIY inclined enthusiast I hesitate to purchase any newer car other than a BMW, Jeep or Mazda as it's become difficult to get up to speed on most any new brand(I might consider a Cayman, but that's about it).

thecardoc3 · June 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
That would take 11, 625 hours or almost 4 years.

Before the 90's it was possible to master the trade in about four years if someone worked hard enough. Now it's a serious challenge to do that with one make of vehicle let alone multiple manufacturers and systems.

qbrozen · June 2018

roadburner said:
I guess I'm getting old and crotchety, but as a DIY inclined enthusiast I hesitate to purchase any newer car other than a BMW, Jeep or Mazda as it's become difficult to get up to speed on most any new brand(I might consider a Cayman, but that's about it).

yup. old and crotchety. haha.
I'm far from done switching brands. My goal is to own as many different brands as I can manage in my lifetime. Besides, even sticking with one brand doesn't relieve you from learning new stuff, obviously.

roadburner · June 2018

qbrozen said:

roadburner said:
I guess I'm getting old and crotchety, but as a DIY inclined enthusiast I hesitate to purchase any newer car other than a BMW, Jeep or Mazda as it's become difficult to get up to speed on most any new brand(I might consider a Cayman, but that's about it).
yup. old and crotchety. haha.
I'm far from done switching brands. My goal is to own as many different brands as I can manage in my lifetime. Besides, even sticking with one brand doesn't relieve you from learning new stuff, obviously.

I agree regarding learning new stuff, but if you already have connections in a particular brand's community obtaining the new info is much easier to obtain.
And I will amend my statement and admit that I find the Stelvio Quadrifoglio oddly alluring.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

roadburner said:
Whatever you do ,DO NOT repost that comment in the “Tales From Under the Hood” topic unless you want a lecture about how professional technicians NEVER make mistakes...

Someday "maybe" you'll figure out what was really being said. No where have I ever said that. But until then, whatever....

jmonroe said:
Don't worry, I won't do that. I learned my lesson after you set me up a few years ago about telling a story over there to the mastermind @thecardoc3. Like I said to you before, after learning my lesson, "I OWE YOU FOR THAT". :@ jmonroe

Just so you know anytime you post someone's nick it shows up that you have mentioned them in the forums. Quite an interesting read over there. Too bad you guys weren't able to help graphicguy with his dishwasher. But as I scanned through I saw that you actually do know how to check the torque on wheel lugs and yet you still had to bully the person behind the counter at that shop and then brag about it here in the forums.

kyfdx · June 2018

Funny story. Waiting my turn to drop off key at my independent shop. Lady in front of me was relating to the boss about a noise during acceleration. He replied, “sounds like the heat shield”.

Whaaaatt??!! That’s not how you diagnose a problem!

roadburner · June 2018

thecardoc3 said:

roadburner said:
Whatever you do ,DO NOT repost that comment in the “Tales From Under the Hood” topic unless you want a lecture about how professional technicians NEVER make mistakes...
Someday "maybe" you'll figure out what was really being said. No where have I ever said that. But until then, whatever....
jmonroe said:
Don't worry, I won't do that. I learned my lesson after you set me up a few years ago about telling a story over there to the mastermind @thecardoc3. Like I said to you before, after learning my lesson, "I OWE YOU FOR THAT". :@ jmonroe
Just so you know anytime you post someone's nick it shows up that you have mentioned them in the forums. Quite an interesting read over there. Too bad you guys weren't able to help graphicguy with his dishwasher. But as I scanned through I saw that you actually do know how to check the torque on wheel lugs and yet you still had to bully the person behind the counter at that shop and then brag about it here in the forums.

I'm SO ashamed...

thecardoc3 · June 2018

roadburner said:
I'm SO ashamed...

I highly doubt that.

xwesx · June 2018

So, how do you find out about the handle links? I always wondered what the point of that "@" thing was... It's highly possible that nobody has ever linked mine like that, but, if they have, I am entirely ignorant of it.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

@xwesx Like that.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

I wonder if these "customers" ever post in these forums...

https://imgur.com/gallery/0dgJN

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

I haven't seen anything like that. Some shop complaints are off the wall, but some sound pretty legit to me. There is, as you know, a fair amount of incompetence out there in the auto repair field. I do think it's getting better, though. It's getting harder to bluff your way through anymore, as cars become more complex.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
I haven't seen anything like that. Some shop complaints are off the wall, but some sound pretty legit to me.

Then again imagine how any of those "customers" would have sounded when they griped online. They probably brag about how demeaning they were and think that they were right the whole time.

Mr_Shiftright said:

There is, as you know, a fair amount of incompetence out there in the auto repair field.

Does that justify treating anyone like that? It stands out because this time because this is what some people have done to Audra. When people who genuinely do the job the right way get treated like that, who speaks up for them? Well I do of course, does anyone else?

Mr_Shiftright said:

I do think it's getting better, though. It's getting harder to bluff your way through anymore, as cars become more complex.

Remember that.

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

Well if someone messes up your car, sure it's justified to call them out on incompetence. But you'd better know what you're talking about when you do.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
But you'd better know what you're talking about when you do.

That hasn't stopped them. They don't know that they don't know.

xwesx · June 2018

thecardoc3 said:
@xwesx Like that.

Hmm... Still don't see that it really "does" anything, in terms of calling my attention to the flag. I dug through my "notifications" for a while (it pushes a lot of them!), and i found this....

"thecardoc3 mentioned you in A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood"

Seems pointless to me. I would never know is was there unless I was intentionally digging for it. In that case, I already knew it was there!

roadburner · June 2018

thecardoc3 said:
I wonder if these "customers" ever post in these forums...

https://imgur.com/gallery/0dgJN

Since the customer is always at fault, I'm quite sure that they do...

Mr_Shiftright · June 2018

thecardoc3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
But you'd better know what you're talking about when you do.
That hasn't stopped them. They don't know that they don't know.

Well not all car owners are clueless. They know enough to know when a mechanic's story doesn't add up.

"We had to replace your coils, wires, spark plugs, fuel pump, ECM, wiring harness, fuel pressure regulator, TPS, PPS and timing belt----you car starts fine, now".

Owner's conclusion: Somebody's been guessing.

thecardoc3 · June 2018

roadburner said:
Since the customer is always at fault, I'm quite sure that they do...

So you approve of how Audra was being treated. You know that they were right everytime.

roadburner · June 2018

thecardoc3 said:

roadburner said:
Since the customer is always at fault, I'm quite sure that they do...
So you approve of how Audra was being treated. You know that they were right everytime.

I don't approve, but you can cherry pick stories about clueless customers and equally clueless techs(yes, they DO exist!).

thecardoc3 · June 2018

roadburner said:
I don't approve,

Thank-you. I hoped that would be the case, Audra's stories paint a very clear picture.

roadburner said:

but you can cherry pick stories about clueless customers and equally clueless techs(yes, they DO exist!).

Yes of course some poeple get into the trade who really should have never tried in the first place. Others take longer to learn how to limit mistakes. Some never learn even though they might be a genius in a classroom.

I have never said that mistakes don't happen and that techs never get things wrong. I have said that when something does go wrong, placing blame isn't the answer. Figuring out why it happened and training to try and prevent it from happening again is. Then when we have someone who acts like your buddy jm because he doesn't understand that break away torque can vary by as much as 50% over the initial tightening force and acts just like the people in Audra's stories (only without the gender bias) they chase good people from the bays and force the need for someone else to have to learn by experience all over again.

A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

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