A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

guitarzan · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
You want a nice clean waiting room with a coffee machine? You want maybe a loaner car, or free shuttle service? Nice clean restroom? Chances are you won't get that at an Indy shop. So the dealer rates include the overhead for all these extra perks you get when you go there.

I want a business where such costs do not entice people to unethically make up for the cost elsewhere.

In typical business rates are tied to quality of work. Dealerships having a default peak/OEM service rate does not magically make the service run correctly. If the service is not working well then the perks you listed become heavy burdens and an excuse to cheat, like not paying techs, padding jobs, etc. This model does not work due to the competing interests. It will consistently and forever until the end of time generate a high proportion of cheaters.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

henryn said:

Never heard of it. Changed a lot of batteries in my time, never heard of this until I read it somewhere about a BMW. Which specific GM or Ford models require this?

Just about every car with start/stop technology. A number of the vehicles have dual battery systems (two batteries in one). Some even have both 12v lead acid and 42 volt Li-Ion in the same case.

GM has designed the system to do an automatic relearn in case the active one isn't performed or if a battery is charged incorrectly. In one of those the customer will notice the start/stop system will shut down, but then after the car has been parked for three to four hours it will return to normal all by itself.

henryn said:

I changed the battery on a recent model Cadillac SRX (2016?) not that long ago, didn't require anything special. And a 2014 Ford Mustang GT last year, nothing special required.

Those should not have been an issue, but just wait until you run into one with ADAS (advanced drivers assistance systems) on top of start/stop technology. You'll get to learn things that you don't want to know.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

@thecardoc3 : you said: "GM has designed the system to do an automatic relearn in case the active one isn't performed or if a battery is charged incorrectly. In one of those the customer will notice the start/stop system will shut down, but then after the car has been parked for three to four hours it will return to normal all by itself."

And that's exactly what good engineering should do with such a system.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

guitarzan said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
You want a nice clean waiting room with a coffee machine? You want maybe a loaner car, or free shuttle service? Nice clean restroom? Chances are you won't get that at an Indy shop. So the dealer rates include the overhead for all these extra perks you get when you go there.
I want a business where such costs do not entice people to unethically make up for the cost elsewhere.

In typical business rates are tied to quality of work. Dealerships having a default peak/OEM service rate does not magically make the service run correctly. If the service is not working well then the perks you listed become heavy burdens and an excuse to cheat, like not paying techs, padding jobs, etc. This model does not work due to the competing interests. It will consistently and forever until the end of time generate a high proportion of cheaters.

Dealers are no more prone to faults in service than indy shops. All things being equal, it costs a lot more to run a dealership than Al's Tire and Brake Service. Dealer rates ALWAYS have to be higher than Indy shops, and they always are. (unless they are running specials to get you in the door).

I'm not sure what some people expect when they drive into this chrome and glass Taj Mahals called "the dealer". A guy in coveralls replacing your fuse and saying "That's okay, pal---no charge for that".

henryn · September 2018

thecardoc3 said:

henryn said:

Never heard of it. Changed a lot of batteries in my time, never heard of this until I read it somewhere about a BMW. Which specific GM or Ford models require this?
Just about every car with start/stop technology. A number of the vehicles have dual battery systems (two batteries in one). Some even have both 12v lead acid and 42 volt Li-Ion in the same case.

GM has designed the system to do an automatic relearn in case the active one isn't performed or if a battery is charged incorrectly. In one of those the customer will notice the start/stop system will shut down, but then after the car has been parked for three to four hours it will return to normal all by itself.
henryn said:

I changed the battery on a recent model Cadillac SRX (2016?) not that long ago, didn't require anything special. And a 2014 Ford Mustang GT last year, nothing special required.
Those should not have been an issue, but just wait until you run into one with ADAS (advanced drivers assistance systems) on top of start/stop technology. You'll get to learn things that you don't want to know.

Interesting, I learn something new every day. A quick search online shows my F150 (which has start-stop) uses an AGM battery.

However, the introduction of Start-Stop vehicles has driven a major change in battery technology. Start-Stop (otherwise known as micro-hybrid) engines have become the preferred route for most of the VMs in order for them to reduce the fuel consumption of their vehicles and achieve the EU requirement for fleet average vehicle emissions.

The traditional lead-acid ‘starter’ battery is not suitable for this type of engine and, therefore, cannot be used. Instead, it requires a battery that can deliver the starting power of a traditional automotive battery with the cyclic (charge, discharge, charge etc.) capacity of a specialist mobility battery. The result is the absorbent glass mat (AGM) battery, which was first developed by VARTA® for whom Manbat is the UK’s largest supply partner.
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thecardoc3 · September 2018

henryn said:

Interesting, I learn something new every day. A quick search online shows my F150 (which has start-stop) uses an AGM battery.

If you never lost system power, before or durog the replacement you were spared some of the relearn operation. Emphasis on the word "some". The vehicle would eventually self-retrain, but it took about five days without being commanded.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

I really dislike Stop/Start--the automaker passes this burden onto the consumer with little or no real benefit to him, only to the manufacturer. Whatever paltry fuel you save, you eventually lose having to replace a more expensive battery, so say nothing of other things that can go wrong over time. My friend's Benz has this feature and I find it incredibly annoying.

You can turn it off, but not permanently. If I had this on my new car, I'd ask someone like Doc how I could disarm it permanently and forever.

henryn · September 2018

I am not a huge fan of stop-start, but it doesn't bother me a great deal. And the prices on the AGM batteries don't seem to be that much higher than regular batteries, so no big deal. Plus which, being a card carrying member of CCBA, I will probably never buy a battery anyway!

roadburner · September 2018

My M235i has stop/start and it really doesnt bother me; you can permanently disable it with the push of a button. From 2017 on I think-thanks to CAFE-you now have to disable it at every engine start. I'm pretty sure you can still set the default to be the Off position with the proper coding tool.

henryn · September 2018

Speaking of dealers and unreasonable fees. A friend of mine, who lives out of town (but not that far, only about an hour away), has a 1995 Toyota Tacoma. Still in good condition, only about 60k miles. She reached out to me this week, she had a service engine light. I recommended that she go by Autozone or O’Reillys, either of whom will read the code for free. It turns out that neither auto parts store could read the code on her truck, it is one year too old for OBD II. She had to go to the local Toyota dealer, who charged her $75.

Oxygen sensor, bank 1 sensor 2, which is the downstream sensor, and costs about $48 on RockAuto. Probably less on Amazon. The dealer didn’t have the sensor, but offered to order it, and gave her an estimate of $420 for parts and labor. And they were generous enough to offer to take the $75 “diagnostic fee” off of that $420.

The last time I replaced an oxygen sensor it took about 15 minutes. In this case, what with jacking up the truck and sitting it on jack stands, make that 30 minutes? So 30 minutes work, a $48 part, and the dealer wants $420. That just doesn’t strike me as fair or reasonable.

YMMV

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Yeah but there's no way to know it was/is the oxygen sensor. That code doesn't actually tell you the sensor is bad. It only tells you that the sensor circuit is in some kind of distress and isn't putting out the right values, as read by the PCM.

A man could probably gets rich re-boxing all the good 02 sensors that are thrown away each year.

henryn · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Yeah but there's no way to know it was/is the oxygen sensor. That code doesn't actually tell you the sensor is bad. It only tells you that the sensor circuit is in some kind of distress and isn't putting out the right values, as read by the PCM.

A man could probably gets rich re-boxing all the good 02 sensors that are thrown away each year.

You seem to be assuming the dealer would actually go further without adding more charges. In my experience, that isn't true.

No, no, the $420 was just an estimate. The job turned out to be more complex, you have to pay $800 instead.

Although you do make a good point about it not necessarily being the O2 sensor. On a 23 year old truck, with 23 year old wiring, who knows?

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Bringing an old car to a dealer is never a good idea. That truck is probably older than some of the techs working there.

henryn · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Bringing an old car to a dealer is never a good idea. That truck is probably older than some of the techs working there.

Agreed. The problem in this case was finding someone who could read the code. The auto parts stores could not interface to the older OBD1 standard. OBD2 was not in place until 1996 (one year after this truck was built.)

1991:[3] The California Air Resources Board (CARB) requires that all new vehicles sold in California in 1991 and newer vehicles have some basic OBD capability. These requirements are generally referred to as "OBD-I", though this name is not applied until the introduction of OBD-II. The data link connector and its position are not standardized, nor is the data protocol.

1994: Motivated by a desire for a statewide emissions testing program, the CARB issues the OBD-II specification and mandates that it be adopted for all cars sold in California starting in model year 1996 (see CCR Title 13 Section 1968.1 and 40 CFR Part 86 Section 86.094). The DTCs and connector suggested by the SAE are incorporated into this specification.

1996: The OBD-II specification is made mandatory for all cars manufactured in the United States to be sold in the United States.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Well any good Indy shop can read OBD-I.

henryn · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Well any good Indy shop can read OBD-I.

Probably so. Or only "maybe"? According to the article on Wikipedia, "The data link connector and its position are not standardized, nor is the data protocol."

She lives in a small town, she does not know any repair shops. I sent her to Autozone, as I know they can read OBD2, and will do so for free. Didn't occur to me until afterwards that her truck was too old for OBD2. She tried not one, but two, auto parts stores. Both told her to go the dealer, so she went to the dealer.

The more I think about this, the less likely it is that a small "Indy shop" would have the equipment to read a proprietary 23 year old OBD1 diagnostic code. Just my guess.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Depends what they still have lying around. Most shops used to have OBD-1 scan tools that they used all the time.

I bet Doc has one right on his toolbelt

isellhondas · September 2018

thecardoc3 said:

isellhondas said:

And when you get some miserable problem that your Indy guy can't fix, be sure when you grovel into a dealership to let them know what you call them on public forums.
I'm not sure that they care, and it's not like they are really worried about actually being able to fix difficult issues when all they need to do is sell him a different car. Didn't it ever seem strange that they have never stood up for their service departments or techs when someone tries to cut them down like that?

You've been around these forums long enough to know (I hope) that I am always one to back up and support techs and the work they do! Still, the dealership is the last resort. They HAVE to find and fix the problem! They can't just sell the customer another car!

isellhondas · September 2018

guitarzan said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
Well sure, every stereotype contains a grain of truth. We could find miscreants in any profession on earth.
Every OEM dealership has either treated me poorly or cheated me, and this includes Toyota, Acura, Ford, and for my motorcycle, the only Honda motorsports dealer in the entire region. For me the bad about OEM vehicle dealership service is not a stereotype, it is an empirical rule.

I have learned from my hobby that the motorsports dealers are the same as car dealers. All they want to do is perform oil changes and sell weed whackers. At the same time they put 150 ft-lbs of torque on the oil filter and create nightmares by screwing up even the simplest of jobs. They seem to stay in business and make up for it with their competing sales interests. The only dealers that bikers universally recommend are Harley dealers. I think they are doing something different for their technicians. (Perhaps the Cardoc has insight into this.) Sport bikers ubiquitously warn about any dealer whatsoever touching their Honda, Suzuki, or Kawasaki due to nothing but nightmares.
isellhondas said:
And when you get some miserable problem that your Indy guy can't fix, be sure when you grovel into a dealership to let them know what you call them on public forums.
isellhondas consider that the only reason a dealership service department should exist is for warranty work and for solving highly complex problems that only they would know to fix, as they admittedly have the premier resources and network of expertise to do so.

I think it reasonable to advise people to generally avoid dealership service departments. Not that my indy guys have been perfect, but they have never padded the job or wrote up work that they did not actually do. And they seem to own torque wrenches. Apparently dealer techs cannot afford these (?).

So, you think dealerships should only do warranty work and fix the miserable problems that the Indy can can't or won't fix? No gravy jobs? How would you like to be a tech in one of those stores?

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Where I live, I see dealers often sending the older cars to the Indy shops---they don't want 'em.

guitarzan · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Bringing an old car to a dealer is never a good idea. That truck is probably older than some of the techs working there.

Mr_Shiftright said:
Where I live, I see dealers often sending the older cars to the Indy shops---they don't want 'em.

From the context I take it to mean the young tech will be confused by an older car. Is that correct? This is perfect backup for Cardoc's soliloquies. Having good methods would mean it does not matter what year vehicle is brought in, particularly if it is the same brand as the dealer who has access to all resources for that vehicle.

There is Factory Service Manual for every vehicle manufactured. If a tech cannot read and implement procedures because these are not the exact cars they see most often, then I do not know what to tell you. In IT we get thrown legacy systems and problems outside of our bailiwick all the time. If something needs to keep running because it produces a report that lands on the CEOs desk, guess what? Those executives are outright tyrannical and have zero tolerance for excuses. Someone must fix the process and there is a significant chance the programmer working on it was not even around when the process was created, just like this tech/old car situation. A technical person’s job is to fix technical problems, not to fix the most common and easiest current problems.

I understand that OEM parts do drop off the map. The dealership has access to all the same Chinese parts as the independent dealer, and they also have a moral obligation to fix their own vehicle, which no one else really has. I guess they do not see it that way. If the brand were mine, I would be outright ashamed to turn away one of my cars.

You could tell me about tool challenges. But does fixing the A/C, radiator, gas tank, EGR valve on a 1985 Buick century mandate a different set of wrenches?

isellhondas said:
So, you think dealerships should only do warranty work and fix the miserable problems that the Indy can can't or won't fix? No gravy jobs? How would you like to be a tech in one of those stores?

That sounds like the perfect system! Leave all other work to lower rate independent shops who, despite Mr. S's assertion, I am positive have a much lower rate of overall cheating. The high rate and time allocated should be compensation for difficult jobs, and dealerships could charge even more in this scenario.

I care as much about your concern, the particular work a tech receives in a free market, as much as the average automotive tech cares about the extraordinary stress of being a senior IT analyst in America today, what jobs we are assigned, and the high rates of heart attacks and even deaths at ages in the 40's and 50's. How would I like to be an automotive tech constantly solving difficult problems? That is very parallel to what I do and how people lean on me. There are also parallel analysts who may even be paid more that no one would bother with a complex problem because they will not get anywhere. So pay is not always "fair" for the job. But I attack problems because I love attacking problems. A true automotive tech would feel similar. Being afraid or simply unable to address a problem not seen before is a sign of a weak troubleshooter or a person who clearly does not love nor belong in such a role.

It just came to me. I left my most recent position and am currently looking for work. One of the reasons I left was that recently I was spending too much of my day templating the same processes repeatedly (easy) and was not being introduced to enough new and complex stuff. To your point about gravy jobs, I avoid them with every fiber in my body. BORING!

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

What I was really driving at was that the dealer would not allow the tech do anything that the dealership wasn't perfectly equipped to do in the first place. The dealer is not going to pay the tech for library research, or to buy a used OBD-1 scanner on eBay. Nor would the tech really want to do this on his own time, curious or intelligent as he might be.

If the tech has an OBD-1 tool available, or has the proper procedure at his fingertips, then fine, he can do it.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Depends what they still have lying around. Most shops used to have OBD-1 scan tools that they used all the time.

I bet Doc has one right on his toolbelt

I have seven tools that are pre OBD II. No two of them do the exact same things with any one car. One is strongest in Euro, it takes three to cover the Asians and O.E. specific ones for GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
The dealer is not going to pay the tech for library research, or to buy a used OBD-1 scanner on eBay. Nor would the tech really want to do this on his own time, curious or intelligent as he might be.

So much of dealer work relies on pattern failures it is an extrememly rare technician among their ranks that practices the kinds of diagnostic routines that make easy work of once in a lifetime events. Especially because they don't get paid to take the time that kind of effort requires.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Doc, have you checked out "South Main Auto" on YouTube. I think that guy is a man after your own heart.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

Eric attends classes that I present. What you see him doing is what I have been teaching for the last fifteen years and doing for the last thirty.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

He's a neat guy. I like his sense of humor, A student you should be proud of.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

I'll be working with him in the near future to see if he wants to make the step to become an instructor. I think he has what it takes.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Well he already is an instructor of sorts on YouTube. I think he has the makings of a good teacher. He is patient and has a likable personality and gets right to the point, clearly and concisely. I like the way he methodically attacks the problem and doesn't get sidetracked.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
I like the way he methodically attacks the problem and doesn't get sidetracked.

How many times has there been a thread or group of posts that preached about good guesses? How many times did you see me dig in and keep saying NO to them? What you are getting to see Eric do is what we learned to do and disciplined ourselves to do when everything around us tried to devalue it. I can't tell you how many times I spent the time that it took to locate and repair a broken wire only to have someone say "we can't pay you for that time, you should have known that is what it was".

Or when I would test and prove a component failure instead of just shooting from the hip only to have someone say, "I don't know what you did all of that testing for, we knew that is what was wrong" which of course has it's own bookend statement that occurred if we didn't test (because we had just gotten yelled at and cheated for testing) and the repair that usually worked didn't this time and it was "didn't you test anything? I thought you said that you knew what you were doing!"

Guys like Eric are getting the chance to do things the right way all of the time because of the group of technicians that came before him who figured out the right way and did it the right way in spite of what it cost us. Now you might be thinking what do you mean cost you? Everytime some reporter wanted to write a story about diagnostics and how it should be free which really was nothing more than a sponsored story for toy tools like CarMD and now Fixd it put the suggestion into consumers minds that what you see Eric actually doing was wrong when were pioneering the way. Yeah, we didn't have a way to get people to see what we were really doing, Eric does and he does a fine job of it.

For me, the more techs that I get to adopt the same habits and skills that Eric is putting to use the more everything that I had to overcome in the past was worth the effort. Which BTW brings us back to the dealership life that stills does everything it can to prevent growing techs like Eric.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Yeah, I know, but even Eric admits that he has to guess once in a while. He doesn't mind people guessing, and guessing wrong. As he puts it "If I were them, I'd probably try doing that, too".

The point is that he is a professional, with a reputation to nurture and uphold. It's his livelihood, and that of his family. For most car owners, taking a good guess makes sense sometimes. The only consequence to us is to have failed and maybe dribbled away $50--$100 bucks.

Besides all that, some problems on cars are not that hard to solve. They aren't all devilishly complicated rabbit-holes.

"Guessing" is not illogical. It is getting to YES by discovering all the NOs

thecardoc3 · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Yeah, I know, but even Eric admits that he has to guess once in a while. He doesn't mind people guessing, and guessing wrong. As he puts it "If I were them, I'd probably try doing that, too".

That's just him recognizing where he has come from on his path to where he is today. Sure it's tempting to pull up short on the testing if the reward is you can save some time, get it right and get another car in the door faster. But you always have to remember the cost for not getting it right which is littlerally just the coin falling the other way.

Mr_Shiftright said:

The point is that he is a professional, with a reputation to nurture and uphold. It's his livelihood, and that of his family. For most car owners, taking a good guess makes sense sometimes. The only consequence to us is to have failed and maybe dribbled away $50--$100 bucks.

And there you're defending it again. Even Eric has gotten to the point where someone who insists on guessing and displaying other behaviors becomes too much of a liablity to try to help anymore. So they didn't just lose what they spent on a part or two. They also lose (lost), and quite deservedly him and techs like him.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Besides all that, some problems on cars are not that hard to solve. They aren't all devilishly complicated rabbit-holes.

What is mundane to us is quite often profoundly complicated to those who haven't learned the techniques (not tricks) and skills that a technician has to aquire. https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/16088/buick/lacrosse/buick-lacrosse-electrical-lighting-problems#latest

Mr_Shiftright said:

"Guessing" is not illogical. It is getting to YES by discovering all the NOs

Until you learn that you only get one chance to fix it right the first time.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

I don't have to meet the standards of the professional mechanic, nor does any DIYer. Why should I have to?

Given enough time and persistence, any intelligent car owner can solve a fair number of his car's problems.

Besides, at $150 shop rates in some zip codes, what does the "guesser" have to lose?

Besides, I hate to tell you how many repair shops are doing exactly what I do--making educated guesses. But you already know that. You see it posted every day here on Edmunds.

I must disagree about Eric--he reached a point on one video where he took a guess, but one based on prior knowledge of similar cars with similar symptoms, and because there was no real testing to go any further. The problem was simply too erratic.

roadburner · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
I don't have to meet the standards of the professional mechanic, nor does any DIYer. Why should I have to?

Given enough time and persistence, any intelligent car owner can solve a fair number of his car's problems.

Besides, at $150 shop rates in some zip codes, what does the "guesser" have to lose?

Besides, I hate to tell you how many repair shops are doing exactly what I do--making educated guesses. But you already know that. You see it posted every day here on Edmunds.

I agree 100%. If I can't fix it I have one dealer and two indie shops I trust implicitly. But as you said, what does it hurt to take a shot at it yourself?

thecardoc3 · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Besides, at $150 shop rates in some zip codes, what does the "guesser" have to lose?

When the guesser is a shop/technician what they have to lose is:
The time they spend continuining testing until the failure is proven or until the owner says to stop.
The cost of the part and the labor, even if it is agreed in advance to do the tryzee on the customer's dollar. There are many cases where the vehicle owner develops buyers remorse or amnesia and the publicity battle ensues if the customer has to pay for something that didn't fix their car.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Besides, I hate to tell you how many repair shops are doing exactly what I do--making educated guesses. But you already know that. You see it posted every day here on Edmunds.

Yeah and how many times are they told to go get their money back when the guess didn't work?
BTW, they should be called uneducated guesses if they have to called anything more than just a guess.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I must disagree about Eric--he reached a point on one video where he took a guess, but one based on prior knowledge of similar cars with similar symptoms, and because there was no real testing to go any further. The problem was simply too erratic.

There is always real testing that can go further the only questions are can the tech figure out how to do it and how long will it take to perform.

For the tech many times diagnostics would be sold for about an hours time assuming of course that any time is sold at all. Once that hour of time expires however quite often the tech is expected to invest what-ever amount of time that it takes to get to the answer. It's hard to argue against the choice of tossing a part versus spending who knows how many unpaid hours if you don't consider what the rest of the outcomes might be.

One scenario is if you guess right and actually fix the car. But you don't really have any proof that it is fixed, you only really have a condition that hasn't happened again yet so the customer can easily be left with a vehicle that they cannot trust to woork correctly. Three years from now if the car presents a similar symptom you'll be told that you got it wrong.

The other possibility of coruse is you toss a part and right away it is proven that it didn't fox it. Now you are in a situation where you spent the customers money (which they may still go back on that deal) and you owe them so the tech again will end up spending what ever time it takes and doing whatever test is rquired to figure out and finally get the problem repaired and not be paid for doing so.

The only way to avoid both of these scenario's is with experience, knowledge and the discipline to apply those skills.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

https://forums.edmunds.com/messages/5838#Message_15689

Hello Sir,
How are you, hope all is well. How is work.

Please I need your professional advice. I have been trying to get my truck to pass inspection in texas
It 2006 Infinity QX56. I got P2A03 on bank 2 sensor 1 via my reader. I replaced the sensor, but i am still getting the same code. I have no leak or whatsoever. I took it to the exhaust shop to get it checked, No problem found.

I run the readness for the emission after first failed.

After I completed the drive cycle, everything I need shows ready, but it kicks the check engine light on.
Whenever I delete the code, the emission READNESS would not be ready until the check engine kicks on.

I know for sure, they would not reinspect my suv with the check engine light on.

I know it will pass when the readness all shows complete.

Please help me.

I already reset my MAF sensor to clear the stored memory

How about you help him your way? Unless you are willing to admit that your way has little to no chance of success and he needs my way. This isn't a mind numbing exercise it is a basic failure that can be correctly analyzed in under fifteen minutes the first time a properly prepared technician ever encounters it and he/she doesn't even need a factory flow chart.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Your way won't work either, because you aren't there, and the poster obviously doesn't have the technical skill or tools to follow your guidance.

So what do we know here? We know the PCM has found a problem with the upstream Sensor 1 on Bank 2. So we also know that the sensor is measuring ambient air content vs. exhaust content and that the sensor isn't sending the PCM the correct voltage values.

His original "guess" wasn't that bad, was it? He suspects something is wrong with the MAF, and you know, he could be right.

But he has no real technical knowledge, and he needs to pass smog.

So he goes on the Internet, and finds out he should check for vacuum leaks, a bad MAF, exhaust leaks, damaged wiring or an engine misfire.

So what's the harm is spending $27 bucks on a new MAF? Two screws, 3 minutes of work and maybe he'd got his solution. Or, ---what's the harm in him buying a cheap code reader? Maybe it'll tell him he DOES have a misfire? or something amiss with manifold pressure or TPS? Maybe he'll find some bad wiring next to a hot exhaust. Maybe he'll learn how to use a basic VOM meter?

Sure, he could waste some time and money, but he could also be successful. There is no harm in encouraging him to do some basic research and exercise some basic skills.

As we've all said before, a man has to know his limitations. But if he wants to risk $50 bucks, that's his business.

If he makes 2 bad guesses and 1 good guess, who's to say he was a fool to try, in his stumbling way?

thecardoc3 · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Your way won't work either, because you aren't there, and the poster obviously doesn't have the technical skill or tools to follow your guidance.

It won't? Here is what I replied to him.

Are you able to see data with your scan tool?

If so, can you capture and post the freeze frame data? That's the data that the computer stores when a code sets. It should have three frames before the code is generated, the fame of the code maturing, and the next one after.

His response was.

I will do that now.

Mr_Shiftright said:

So what do we know here? We know the PCM has found a problem with the upstream Sensor 1 on Bank 2. So we also know that the sensor is measuring ambient air content vs. exhaust content and that the sensor isn't sending the PCM the correct voltage values.

The PCM has run tests on the signal and it is out of range/performance, that doesn't mean that the part is bad. Once I see that data I'll tell him what to do next.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

I'm finding all this a bit too bizarre....but go ahead, keep it rollin'.

So he's got a tool capable of reading freeze frame data and yet he went out and bought an 02 sensor before checking anything? Say what?

thecardoc3 · September 2018

He did exactly what you keep saying to do. Don't test, guess.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

So why does he have advanced testing tools? Something here makes no sense to me. He seems more like your typical example of an inept shop owner than a consumer with no technical skill.

I'm not going to defend a person for guessing when he has a scan tool and enough technical expertise to use it.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
So why does he have advanced testing tools?

You'll have to ask him.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Something here makes no sense to me. He seems more like your typical example of an inept shop owner than a consumer with no technical skill.

Definately a DIY'er

Mr_Shiftright said:

I'm not going to defend a person for guessing when he has a scan tool and enough technical expertise to use it.

Just because he replied with an answer that suggests he has the ability to gather that information doesn't mean that he actually does. What he posted so far is exactly what someone could have gotten by using Google to search the code.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

Here is what he is using for a scan tool

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PJPHEBO/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Well that tool isn't going to do what you asked him to do.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

He responded with these.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

Well this is someone who can speak your language and understand your suggestions. Many people can't do this at all. What do they do for help? They dig around and take a good guess, is what they do.

Besides that, there are plenty of people who can genuinely be helped by simple advice. They don't need a Doc. They need a pointer and some good information.

E.G. https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/52423/ford/mustang/engine-swap-upgrades-before-the-swap-to-prepare-for-more-torque#latest

Your example is outside the realm of what we are talking about IMO.

In any event, let's forget about THAT debate and play with this.
So, next step seems to me that he should observe fuel trim at a higher rpm than he is using now and see what happens.

thecardoc3 · September 2018

Mr_Shiftright said:
Well this is someone who can speak your language and understand your suggestions. Many people can't do this at all. What do they do for help? They dig around and take a good guess, is what they do.

The influx of technology in the cars over the last two decades has made that a questionable behavior and while someone can get lucky once in a while that isn't sufficient to justify the attempts. If anything it's little more than an extension of all of the effort to try and marginalize how hard techs really have to work to keep up with the changes in the cars. aka Keep trying to claim that it is simple and anyone can do it...….

Mr_Shiftright said:

Besides that, there are plenty of people who can genuinely be helped by simple advice. They don't need a Doc. They need a pointer and some good information.

Good information. Let's go with that. His last response included this little gem.

Let me mention to you that I recently had downstream sensor 2 bank 2 code which was P0430.
I used spacer on the sensor. Could this be the cause of the problem? I just ordered a new downstream sensor now when I read where you mention upstream uses downstream to determine.

Do you think the spacer on the downstream sensor might be the issue here?

He actually got part if that backwards, the system uses the downstream sensor to test the accuracy of the upstream sensor. Even though he didn't give me all of the freeze frame data that I wanted to see, which would have included both upstream air/fuel sensor signals and both downstream sensor signals what he provided was enough to not rule out an innacurate downstream sensor signal. Then he admitts that he installed antifoulers between the downstream sensors and the exhaust to try to stop a P0430 catalyst efficiency code from setting. That amounts to "simple advice" that some on this site have preached and it's completely wrong. It might succeed in preventing a test from running accurately, but it doesn't fix the problem. Today the system is capable of detecting a discrepancy in the response between the upstream and downstream sensors when someone tries that hack.

Oh, and speaking of hackery....

Mr_Shiftright said:

E.G. https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/52423/ford/mustang/engine-swap-upgrades-before-the-swap-to-prepare-for-more-torque#latest

Now sure there are people who can do transplants and achieve a functional result, the vast majority cannot and they end up with a frankenstein that might be faster but does little else right. Even your link advises most people to just go find a used 5.0l and go from there.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Your example is outside the realm of what we are talking about IMO.

Funny my example is what I have always been talking about, it just happened to be occurring concurrent to this exchange.

Mr_Shiftright said:

In any event, let's forget about THAT debate and play with this.
So, next step seems to me that he should observe fuel trim at a higher rpm than he is using now and see what happens.

Great Idea. We teach this using not just rpm but engine load. Go ahead and start the outline and let's see how you do. What are the primary areas of focus?

thecardoc3 · September 2018

http://thechronicleherald.ca/opinion/1595892-opinion-car-mechanics-shortchanged-by-how-they’re-paid

Strange, the link won't copy correctly. You may have to search the article or type it in.

OPINION: Car mechanics shortchanged by how they’re paid
NICK GALLANT
Published September 10, 2018 - 5:00am
Last Updated September 10, 2018 - 5:00am

Mr_Shiftright · September 2018

I don't feel I need to enforce what people do when attempting engine swaps. I thought the article was good enough to make him think twice about it!

OF COURSE it makes no sense to swap a 5.0 into a 4 cylinder Fox body Mustang. LOTS of things people do to modify cars make no sense.

Actually I often give people like this very good advice, which is: "If you want a faster car, go buy a faster car" .

roadburner · September 2018

Swapping an E36 M3 motor into an E36/5 is a dead easy swap. LOTS of fun for not much money. If the Club Sport wasn't so rare I'd swap one into it. As it is I'l probably eventually fit a stroker motor ...

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