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U.S. Auto Market News and Reviews

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You can credit Toyota for inventing "Feel Good Marketing".
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    ...as in Piously backing up traffic in the left lane B)
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    "Oh, what a feeling!"

    Although, I can't stand that smarmy guy Chevy is using, along with the rube "real people" in their ads.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Travel new roads
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited December 2018
    I don't mind that one in their print advertising, but the TV commercials are abysmal.

    Now that I look at my owner magazine, it's "Find New Roads". I interpret that as sort-of "try something different" (instead of the mainstream).
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited December 2018
    Here's the TV commercial our local Toyota dealer plays daily and has for a year probably. The last five or six seconds actually makes my skin crawl:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRqLV_SGBG0
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Yeah that's bad. To be fair, a lot of these small independent commercials for autos, carpet stoes, mattress stores, etc. are equally cringeworthy.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Some say that if an ad is bad enough, it sticks the product name into the head of the consumer, which makes it successful. While a very well produced ad can potentially make the consumer focus on the ad instead of the product.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2019
    I see this commercial daily. I see Jess' point, but that "Toyota in Kent! Hey! DJ!" is dumber than rocks.

    This dealer had their 50th anniversary a few years back. Execs from Japan visited and gave them a Samurai sword as an anniversary gift.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Can you really not make money with a Toyota franchise?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Berri, there are people who could screw up using a paper clip.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    That reminds me...my friend's Dad had a Studebaker-Packard-Willys-Nash franchise in the early fifties but gave it up in late '56. He went to work as a sales manager at a Pontiac dealer. My friend said he came home and said, "It's amazing! People come in almost hynotized, asking 'where do I sign?'". He hadn't experienced that before. I'll assume it's sort-of like that with a Toyota dealership today, but maybe not.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I had a MB salesman tell me sort of the same thing - he doesn't do a hard sell as much as show and explain. The cars/badge sell themselves. The Toyota rep probably works similar - you could put a Toyota badge on a Yugo and they'd sell 100K of them.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,056
    edited January 2019
    My dealer friend sold a $6K Packard Caribbean convertible, one of 276, at his little dealership in Greenville, PA. I always gave him a lot of credit for that, although he'd say there wasn't much selling involved as "Doc" Bailey knew what he wanted. BTW, the doc traded in a '55 Thunderbird.

    The Caribbean my friend sold survives in Denmark.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    I like it when the salesperson seems to be offended that you are worried about price.

    "You aren't going to let this deal go over $500, are you?"

    Yes, I am, and I'll ask you the same thing...

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  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I like it when I respectfully say "Thanks" and walk out after the dealer declines my final offer. I usually get my price after all of the homework.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    There is plenty to choose from as long as you don't lock yourself into one "gotta have" vehicle.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    QUIZ: How much profit does Ferrari make on each new car?
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,118

    QUIZ: How much profit does Ferrari make on each new car?

    Not enough zeroes to list it, if we're using lira.

    But, Italy switched to the Euro along with the rest of the continent.

    I'll guess around $25-50K per vehicle.

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  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    That sounds like a reasonable guess to me. Lots of labor, plus fixed overhead spread over a low volume. What is an average Ferrari, maybe $250-300K at the manufacturing cost line?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2019
    Not a bad guess you guys, but too low! Ferrari is unique among automobiles in two ways. One, it really isn't branded as a car anymore--it's branded as a luxury item; two, it has an options list that is truly mind-boggling.

    E.G.

    colored safety belts --$800
    leather armrest for transmission tunnel -- $550
    colored brake calipers -- $1500
    parking cameras -- $3500

    Average add-ons, per car = $70,000

    Profit per car -- $80,000

    Porsche? About $20K per car
    BMW & Mercedes? About $10K per car.
    Maserati -- About $6K per car
    Bentley --- currently, a loss of about $20,000 per car

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,439
    But does Bentley make it up on volume?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes, using Tesla Math.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    What about Cadillac? Here's an interesting read. (I find it another sign GM will only be making trucks, whether gas or electric quite shortly).

    https://jalopnik.com/gm-knows-this-is-cadillac-s-last-chance-1831926384
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If I were GM I wouldn't place my bets on Cadillac or on EVs, but I would place them on SUVs and trucks.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Cadillac seemed to tie their future to being Germanic with trendy design. But that market was already full. We'll see if Lincoln can do better with their more traditional American luxury approach. Lexus kind of filled that niche, but has recently gone a little wild with design. Good friend has around a '15 RX, but said he wouldn't touch the "ugly" new ones. I guess time really will tell on all of this.
  • henrynhenryn Member Posts: 4,289
    I saw a TV commercial this morning for the Lexus UV. Man, that thing is yugly or fugly or whatever word you want to use. I do believe if I won one in a giveaway, I would sell it immediately.
    2023 Chevrolet Silverado, 2019 Chrysler Pacifica
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    berri said:

    Cadillac seemed to tie their future to being Germanic with trendy design. But that market was already full. We'll see if Lincoln can do better with their more traditional American luxury approach. Lexus kind of filled that niche, but has recently gone a little wild with design. Good friend has around a '15 RX, but said he wouldn't touch the "ugly" new ones. I guess time really will tell on all of this.

    I don't think the '15 Lexus were lookers either.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Honestly, I'm not sure there are a whole lot of good lookers these days.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Computer-aided design has homogenized most cars except perhaps on the high-end exotics.
  • henrynhenryn Member Posts: 4,289
    A very short article, and not really very informative. I remember reading, maybe a couple of years ago, about an upswing in subprime car lending and how this could lead to some serious trouble. I expect we all remember the subprime mortgage lending, and what that lead to. Shudder!
    2023 Chevrolet Silverado, 2019 Chrysler Pacifica
  • henrynhenryn Member Posts: 4,289
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/13/business/delinquent-car-loans/index.html

    A little more information here, but still not a lot.
    2023 Chevrolet Silverado, 2019 Chrysler Pacifica
  • henrynhenryn Member Posts: 4,289
    Thanks for the link, an interesting read. We all know that many car buyers do not do a good job of shopping for the best deal (think how popular CarMax is). And apparently they also do a poor job of shopping for the loan to buy the car.

    -=-=-=-=- begin quote -=-=-=-=-=

    The bank says more than 50 percent of auto loans go to subprime borrowers with credit scores less than 620. Mark Hamrick, senior economic analyst at Bankrate, notes that these buyers end up paying more to finance their rides.

    “Many borrowers who aren’t well qualified, meaning they have low credit scores, have been paying higher interest rates on their auto loans, making it additionally challenging for them to not only pay off the loan but capture equity in the vehicle,” says Hamrick. “There’s something about the allure of automobiles that prompts too many buyers (and borrowers) to fail to sufficiently shop around for the best loan as well as a better deal on a vehicle.”

    2023 Chevrolet Silverado, 2019 Chrysler Pacifica
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,118
    henryn said:

    Thanks for the link, an interesting read. We all know that many car buyers do not do a good job of shopping for the best deal (think how popular CarMax is). And apparently they also do a poor job of shopping for the loan to buy the car.

    -=-=-=-=- begin quote -=-=-=-=-=

    The bank says more than 50 percent of auto loans go to subprime borrowers with credit scores less than 620. Mark Hamrick, senior economic analyst at Bankrate, notes that these buyers end up paying more to finance their rides.

    “Many borrowers who aren’t well qualified, meaning they have low credit scores, have been paying higher interest rates on their auto loans, making it additionally challenging for them to not only pay off the loan but capture equity in the vehicle,” says Hamrick. “There’s something about the allure of automobiles that prompts too many buyers (and borrowers) to fail to sufficiently shop around for the best loan as well as a better deal on a vehicle.”

    Choosing a vehicle with better than average depreciation helps, too.

    4 years ago, the wife and I bought a 2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R. We rolled in something like $3500 of negative equity, and we added an extended warranty as well as GAP insurance.

    Because we live in Colorado, the depreciation was not like a rock, but more a feather. I received a buy bid a week or two ago that showed we have close to $6000 in positive equity, were we to sell.

    What has good (read: low) depreciation? I'd say most Toyotas and Hondas, pickup trucks of all brands, Subaru in the Mountain West, Pacific NW and New England. There may be others (Lexus and Acura?), but finding the right vehicle with the right loan should help minimize the possibility of being upside down.

    As far as budget goes, folks want to have the newest, flashiest, most loaded version. A $22,000 Accord will be just as reliable as a $32,000 Accord, and is likely to depreciate slower.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    So you're saying the Rolls-Royce Dawn convertible might not be the right car for me?

    Stagnant wages and lack of economic mobility, rising new car prices, lack of financial education all can align for a storm. But a small storm compared to the mortgage fiasco.
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,118
    fintail said:

    So you're saying the Rolls-Royce Dawn convertible might not be the right car for me?

    Stagnant wages and lack of economic mobility, rising new car prices, lack of financial education all can align for a storm. But a small storm compared to the mortgage fiasco.

    Only if you can't afford the $5000/mo lease payment. Since you're renting and don't have a mortgage, perhaps you can.

    The wage thing I completely agree with. Lack of financial education depends on the individual. My son, who barely was able to graduate HS, has managed to keep himself out of serious debt as he approaches his 30th birthday. Just bought his first car with payments attached to them last year, but is only spending $350/mo.

    I've seen signs that the lessons learned a decade ago may not have completely sunk in; exotic mortgage products are making a comeback.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Well I'd have to live in it, and stop funding retirement and savings, and live on bread and water, but I might be able to eke it out.

    I think financial education in reality comes from parents. Schools don't teach it. My parents weren't spendthrifts when I was a kid, and I saw the drama when bills were due. Because of this, I live below my means in some ways so I can enjoy other things. Some may cringe at even what I spend on a sweetheart lease, but the way I see it, these are the good old days. However, some may not be aware enough to learn financial lessons from family. Schools should be doing a lot more to teach basic financial literacy, but with the test-based system now, teachers haven't the time, and not to be a conspiracy theorist, but I think the banking and finance industries approve.

    I haven't seen any data that we are close to 2006, yet anyway. There are some zero down programs out there, but not the general malfeasance, nor the bubbles in some areas where local jobs don't support it (Atlanta, Vegas, inland CA, etc). Anbd if it does happen again, maybe this time the FIRE sector will have to actually pay a price. Yeah right.
    Michaell said:



    Only if you can't afford the $5000/mo lease payment. Since you're renting and don't have a mortgage, perhaps you can.

    The wage thing I completely agree with. Lack of financial education depends on the individual. My son, who barely was able to graduate HS, has managed to keep himself out of serious debt as he approaches his 30th birthday. Just bought his first car with payments attached to them last year, but is only spending $350/mo.

    I've seen signs that the lessons learned a decade ago may not have completely sunk in; exotic mortgage products are making a comeback.

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    It is a lot harder to qualify for a mortgage, now.
    Also, cashing out equity by refinancing is difficult. And, HELOC interest is no longer deductible.

    We are nowhere near a financial crisis. Even so, not a big fan of rolling back regulations on the banks.

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  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,439
    Heloc interest isn't deductible now? Darn. Now I really don't think I will be itemizing this year.

    doing the taxes this weekend. Can't wait to see what other surprises I uncover.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    Lots of stuff isn’t.
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  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,439
    I really just had the basics. State income tax, property tax on the house, and mortgage (and heloc) interest. Plus a little bit of charitable deductions. Nothing exotic.

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  • suydamsuydam Member Posts: 4,676
    All of those got much more limited.
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  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,439
    oh, I already expected to be using the new higher standard deduction. I should be OK, because in the past few years, my itemized deductions came out to be right about that anyway.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,200
    stickguy said:

    oh, I already expected to be using the new higher standard deduction. I should be OK, because in the past few years, my itemized deductions came out to be right about that anyway.

    It's kind of a bummer, in some respects. I have a big capital gain for 2018 (taxes paid in 2019). So, a big chunk of state tax paid this year, that I won't be able to deduct off my federal taxes for 2019. (because of the $10K SALT limit).

    On balance, less overall tax paid with the new tax cuts. Not itemizing is okay, but I still have the same record keeping, because the standard deduction for our state is around $3000. So, I itemize there.

    I won't get into the macro-economic impact, due to our forum rules. ;)

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  • thebeanthebean Member Posts: 1,216
    fintail said:


    I think financial education in reality comes from parents. Schools don't teach it... However, some may not be aware enough to learn financial lessons from family. Schools should be doing a lot more to teach basic financial literacy, but with the test-based system now, teachers haven't the time...

    ^^^ This X 1000. As long as the “teach to the test” method is used in our schools, we will continue to turn out “common sense-less” kids. I don’t blame the teachers, as they are being directed by their leaders. Besides, teachers are paid diddly squat, and we expect them to be superheroes.
    2015 Honda Accord EX, 2019 Honda HR-V EX
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Teachers are as mad as hell and not going to take it anymore. 2019 will be verrryyy interesting in the education field.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,439
    well, I made the mistake of firing up the tax software.

    Anyone want to buy a slightly used TLX? A kidney? Sadly the kids are no longer minors so I can't sell them...

    I could have sworn I went in and had extra taken out last year to make sure. Guess not.

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  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,118
    stickguy said:

    well, I made the mistake of firing up the tax software.

    Anyone want to buy a slightly used TLX? A kidney? Sadly the kids are no longer minors so I can't sell them...

    I could have sworn I went in and had extra taken out last year to make sure. Guess not.

    Oh, bother.

    We'll be using a CPA this year, due to the new LLC and the expenses associated with it we incurred in 2018.

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