Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

corvette · January 2019

There’s no way they’d take $1,500. I’m betting someone comes along and pays full price.

28firefighter · January 2019

@pensfan83 - I'm all for questionable vehicle purchases. I think a better ZHP can be found if that is what you want.

kyfdx · January 2019

28firefighter said:

xwesx said:

With a buy under $4,000, that's equivalent to about a year of payments. So, if you can buy it and drive it for two years with no major issues, it was a good gamble.

There is absolutely no chance that 330 goes 2 years with no major issues.

It's $4000. No car for $4000 comes without issues.

2011: 1987 325iS with 190K - paid $4K. Sold in 2013 for $4700
2014: 1995 M3 with 205K- paid $8200. Sold in 2017 for $4500

Spent a considerable amount on those cars (maintenance/repairs), but got a lot of joy. But, they didn't cost any more than if I'd bought a 120K mile vehicle.

Most 14 year old BMWs (especially a desirable model) haven't been run into the ground, like you were buying a Chrysler 200. If it's made it to 185K, it's been relatively well-maintained along the way.

The thing that kills most high-mileage vehicles is an automatic transmission. If it's a stick, I'd take a chance on it. The nice thing about an E46 is that they are still making parts for it, and they are easy to get and relatively inexpensive.

pensfan83 · January 2019

If the state of borrowing keeps going down the path it's on I may consider downgrading from the entry level lux/sport sedan class for my primary driver and putting the difference toward something like that, or going even further outside my comfort zone (Porsche?). I can't say I wouldn't mind a ZHP but the current price of entry for a cleaner, less miled example is more than I can or want to spend right now.

28firefighter · January 2019

Well - maybe its worth going to look at? Though I think Moneoreville is a schlep from your part of town. I certainly wouldn't buy it without a PPI and having someone put it in a rack to check for rust.

28firefighter · January 2019

kyfdx said:

It's $4000. No car for $4000 comes without issues.

2011: 1987 325iS with 190K - paid $4K. Sold in 2013 for $4700
2014: 1995 M3 with 205K- paid $8200. Sold in 2017 for $4500

Spent a considerable amount on those cars (maintenance/repairs), but got a lot of joy. But, they didn't cost any more than if I'd bought a 120K mile vehicle.

Most 14 year old BMWs (especially a desirable model) haven't been run into the ground, like you were buying a Chrysler 200. If it's made it to 185K, it's been relatively well-maintained along the way.

The thing that kills most high-mileage vehicles is an automatic transmission. If it's a stick, I'd take a chance on it. The nice thing about an E46 is that they are still making parts for it, and they are easy to get and relatively inexpensive.

You and @Mr_Shiftright bring some interesting perspectives. All of these feel like cars he would say to run away fast from OR go into eyes wide open (which you did).

pensfan83 · January 2019

28firefighter said:
Well - maybe its worth going to look at? Though I think Moneoreville is a schlep from your part of town. I certainly wouldn't buy it without a PPI and having someone put it in a rack to check for rust.

It's about 40-45 minutes, used to drive there to get the Audi serviced passing this BMW dealer along the way. Not around the corner but not too bad.

au1994 · January 2019

Eye opening for me as well. I guess it really comes down to your tolerance for risk/pain and mechanical ability.

When my ZHP wasn’t my DD it was fine. When we moved a car out of the fleet and it become my DD is when things got complicated, for us at least. I’m not the type that could take on a complete cooling system refresh for instance so when I had to have that done we were down to one car for nearly a week. Then my commute doubled and as it creeped over 100k in miles other needs were developing and I just couldn’t see keeping it and dealing with this from time to time. It didn’t help that my employer at the time was 4 square against remote workers.

Do I regret selling it? Yes, 100% but sometimes your lifestyle just outgrows a car.

28firefighter · January 2019

The conclusion I have come to is that my tolerance with older european cars is to have them as "fun cars" not necessarily because of the cost, but because of the unpredictable downtime. Even with WFH, I still am in charge of childcare drop-off and pick-up, and there really isn't any room for a car to be malfunctioning. The best mechanics are smaller in my experience and have lead time - so regardless of the urgency for you to get it back, they have a line of people ahead of you.

stickguy · January 2019

Same. I want a fun toy at some point, but it will absolutely be a spare car.

kyfdx · January 2019

Yeah, if you are a 30 year old single mom with three kids, looking for a daily driver, then this isn't your car.
I don't think any of us are looking at 14 year old BMWs as daily drivers.
Also, a 2004 car with 185K is a lot different than a 25-35 year old car with 185K. It's more likely to be solid, structurally.

My biggest point was this isn't all that different from my 119K mile ZHP. Assess the present condition for any deal breakers, and if you get it for asking price, you've saved $5K over buying mine.

qbrozen · January 2019

Vroom is SLOWLY moving along. Granted, I started this process during the holidays, so I should be a little lenient. Anyway, I did have to throw them $300 for the difference between their offer and my payoff, but I think I'd rather do that than jump through transfer hoops to save that $300. When I transferred the Ford, other than the headaches, the buyer wanted it detailed, the recall taken care of, a broken piece of interior plastic replaced (door lock button), and the gas tank full. So figure that was about $100 in total and a good 5 hrs of my time all told. I'll pay the $300.

Michaell · January 2019

Well, blah.

Just used Carvana to see what the Jetta was worth.

Looks like I'm about $1500 upside down on the lease payoff.

qbrozen · January 2019

Michaell said:
Well, blah.

Just used Carvana to see what the Jetta was worth.

Looks like I'm about $1500 upside down on the lease payoff.

make sure you check Vroom, KBB, and truecar offers. They all hit my cars differently.

qbrozen · January 2019

And, FYI, KBB and truecar both rejected the Alfa due to it being "too exotic."

stickguy · January 2019

I’m resisting checking my car. I haven’t even put gas in it yet!

Mr_Shiftright · January 2019

pensfan83 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

pensfan83 said:
Browsing through some of the loaner inventory at a local BMW dealer I saw they had a listing for a 2004 which seemed odd. I was curious and now I see why they kept it for their lot.

Kind of sort of want to go take a look.

https://maxdigitalshowroom.com/web/#!/vehicle/WBABD53404PD98185
That car's statistical lifespan is just about over. Best thing to do is take it on a test drive and run the livin' daylights out of it and see if it breaks, leaks, stops, stutters, boils over or screams bloody murder. If not, then offer $2,500 and cross your fingers.

If the entire maintenance history were available and it passed a PPI I think I'd take a gamble.

Yes the PPI would tell you a lot--mostly what has been "deferred".

But no matter how carefully you look over a car, you're bound to miss something. Of course, there might be some things you can just live with on an old car. It doesn't have to be perfect at that price. Small seep in valve cover? Needs some software updates? One motor mount a little soft? Well, so what? Drive, he said.

breld · January 2019

qbrozen said:
Vroom is SLOWLY moving along. Granted, I started this process during the holidays, so I should be a little lenient. Anyway, I did have to throw them $300 for the difference between their offer and my payoff, but I think I'd rather do that than jump through transfer hoops to save that $300. When I transferred the Ford, other than the headaches, the buyer wanted it detailed, the recall taken care of, a broken piece of interior plastic replaced (door lock button), and the gas tank full. So figure that was about $100 in total and a good 5 hrs of my time all told. I'll pay the $300.

Vroom hit the Prius at $750 higher than the local Carmax and Echo Park, so I started the process with them - but you're saying they're really slow?

Michaell · January 2019

qbrozen said:

Michaell said:
Well, blah.

Just used Carvana to see what the Jetta was worth.

Looks like I'm about $1500 upside down on the lease payoff.
make sure you check Vroom, KBB, and truecar offers. They all hit my cars differently.

Waiting for Vroom offer

Truecar says $10,200, which is just about $2K or so less than payoff ($10,880 residual and $1500 remaining payments)

pensfan83 · January 2019

Mr_Shiftright said:
Yes the PPI would tell you a lot--mostly what has been "deferred".

But no matter how carefully you look over a car, you're bound to miss something. Of course, there might be some things you can just live with on an old car. It doesn't have to be perfect at that price. Small seep in valve cover? Needs some software updates? One motor mount a little soft? Well, so what? Drive, he said.

If that were the case it would be a hard pass. I said this to @28firefighter who was gracious enough to pass along the name of a respected Pittsburgh based BMW mechanic if I were serious: What ultimately pushes me away I think is not the mileage, initial cost of entry, or passing its PPI with flying colors but the potentially costly proposition of keeping it roadworthy. I could get lucky but I also can't have a car that gets driven a few thousand miles/year (if that) needing hundreds or thousands of dollars per year in upkeep. At that point I may as well go lease or finance something comparable on the fun scale that's at least under a warranty.

xwesx · January 2019

tifighter said:
@xwesx Looks like this filmed this in your neck of the woods. I'm getting cold just watching it-

Ya, looks like the Deltana area, which is east of here but with a similar climate.

Of course, what they don't show you is how the car behaves when it is -40 and stone cold, but then my guess is that they did not experience -40, nor was the car ever stone cold. On my Q7, the electronics get all sorts of funky at those temps. They come back around once they thaw, but, honestly, electronic stuff is supposed to be happier cold than warm!

As for the 30% loss in range, that's pretty much identical to gas and diesel vehicles during the same conditions, so that's certainly no black mark against the electric vehicle. Biggest, perhaps only, drawback to electric here is lack of infrastructure combined with substantial distances.

kyfdx · January 2019

pensfan83 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
Yes the PPI would tell you a lot--mostly what has been "deferred".

But no matter how carefully you look over a car, you're bound to miss something. Of course, there might be some things you can just live with on an old car. It doesn't have to be perfect at that price. Small seep in valve cover? Needs some software updates? One motor mount a little soft? Well, so what? Drive, he said.
If that were the case it would be a hard pass. I said this to @28firefighter who was gracious enough to pass along the name of a respected Pittsburgh based BMW mechanic if I were serious: What ultimately pushes me away I think is not the mileage, initial cost of entry, or passing its PPI with flying colors but the potentially costly proposition of keeping it roadworthy. I could get lucky but I also can't have a car that gets driven a few thousand miles/year (if that) needing hundreds or thousands of dollars per year in upkeep. At that point I may as well go lease or finance something comparable on the fun scale that's at least under a warranty.

As I noted before, that has little to do with the amount of mileage on this particular vehicle. I'd say an E46 is about $150/mo. to maintain/repair, on average, once it hits the 70K mile plateau.

I'll guess that once you hit 100K miles, most cars will be over $100/mo. to maintain/repair.

28firefighter · January 2019

Or well over $150 for certain other brands that shall remain nameless...

kyfdx · January 2019

Mine has been out of maintenance and warranty programs since July 2012.
6.5 years, since then (8.5 yrs total) Might be interesting to add it all up. I've spent a lot on tires (lol). Re-did the whole cooling system. New shocks. I'm probably still under the $150/mo. threshold.

xwesx · January 2019

Tires really jumps the average when we must spring for those. I need to put new rubber on the Forester, both summer and winter tires (next winter), new tires on the Econoline (current were installed in June of 1995), and *maybe* can push the Q7 summer rubber for one more season.

Aside from that, I probably spend about $1,000 in maintenance supplies before I do my annual weekend on the cars over the July 4 holiday.

stickguy · January 2019

That’s only $1800/year. And given the low buy in, and almost non existent depreciation, few cars can you own and run for under $200/mo, including upkeep and depreciation.

Mr_Shiftright · January 2019

pensfan83 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:
Yes the PPI would tell you a lot--mostly what has been "deferred".

But no matter how carefully you look over a car, you're bound to miss something. Of course, there might be some things you can just live with on an old car. It doesn't have to be perfect at that price. Small seep in valve cover? Needs some software updates? One motor mount a little soft? Well, so what? Drive, he said.
If that were the case it would be a hard pass. I said this to @28firefighter who was gracious enough to pass along the name of a respected Pittsburgh based BMW mechanic if I were serious: What ultimately pushes me away I think is not the mileage, initial cost of entry, or passing its PPI with flying colors but the potentially costly proposition of keeping it roadworthy. I could get lucky but I also can't have a car that gets driven a few thousand miles/year (if that) needing hundreds or thousands of dollars per year in upkeep. At that point I may as well go lease or finance something comparable on the fun scale that's at least under a warranty.

A car with 180K on it is like an 80 year old man playing tennis. He might be really good for his age--observers might marvel at his condition and stamina----and yet, if he croaked the next minute would anyone be surprised? Sad perhaps but not suprised, because 80 is his natural lifespan.

My point is -- if you by a car like this, you can't be spending money on life support--if it starts ailing badly you have to fold 'em and walk away.

tifighter · January 2019

Okay Shifty, that analogy made me laugh...

28firefighter · January 2019

Which is why, at a certain age/mileage being able to wrench yourself vs. having to take it a mechanic is the difference between survival and euthanizing the car.

kyfdx · January 2019

28firefighter said:
Which is why, at a certain age/mileage being able to wrench yourself vs. having to take it a mechanic is the difference between survival and euthanizing the car.

Or, a reasonable independent mechanic, and a make that is relatively cheap to work on. (my car qualifies, and your car does not)..

28firefighter · January 2019

No argument here.

stickguy · January 2019

Not sure why, but I actually really like this one. I might have issues.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2010-lexus-is_250c-2dr_convertible_automatic-used-18481405.html

Michaell · January 2019

stickguy said:
Not sure why, but I actually really like this one. I might have issues.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2010-lexus-is_250c-2dr_convertible_automatic-used-18481405.html

Might?

Michaell · January 2019

Hmmm ….

Vroom came back with an offer of $12,000.

Guess I should call VW Credit and find out what my actual payoff is.

tifighter · January 2019

stickguy said:
Not sure why, but I actually really like this one. I might have issues.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2010-lexus-is_250c-2dr_convertible_automatic-used-18481405.html

I looked at these during my convertible hunt of 2017. You really want the 350. More power, less sludge issues. But harder to find.

qbrozen · January 2019

breld said:

qbrozen said:
Vroom is SLOWLY moving along. Granted, I started this process during the holidays, so I should be a little lenient. Anyway, I did have to throw them $300 for the difference between their offer and my payoff, but I think I'd rather do that than jump through transfer hoops to save that $300. When I transferred the Ford, other than the headaches, the buyer wanted it detailed, the recall taken care of, a broken piece of interior plastic replaced (door lock button), and the gas tank full. So figure that was about $100 in total and a good 5 hrs of my time all told. I'll pay the $300.
Vroom hit the Prius at $750 higher than the local Carmax and Echo Park, so I started the process with them - but you're saying they're really slow?

I accepted the offer and uploaded the required photos and documents on 12/26. I was just told today they will begin looking for a transporter to pick up the car.

stickguy · January 2019

I see a Ton of Vroom listings on car.com. But no clue where the cars physically are. I never shopped them for a buy bid.

Much easier to just trade in!

stickguy · January 2019

Michaell said:
Hmmm ….

Vroom came back with an offer of $12,000.

Guess I should call VW Credit and find out what my actual payoff is.

You can do it online through your VW credit account. You just looking to downsize a car?

28firefighter · January 2019

VW often provides a different payoff quote to "dealers" than they provide to you. Vroom may need to call and get that number themselves.

pensfan83 · January 2019

As always appreciate everyone's point of view, good points made all around.

28firefighter · January 2019

I've said this before but after purchasing a Saab and then leasing an Alfa (at least I had the good sense to lease), I've lost any right to evaluate anyone's purchasing habits...

28firefighter · January 2019

In other news, I had someone ask me about the Stelvio this morning when I was at the Starbucks near Sam's school. It was the first time in my ownership experience that someone out here knew it was an Alfa and not the latest Hyundai SUV.

kyfdx · January 2019

tifighter said:

stickguy said:
Not sure why, but I actually really like this one. I might have issues.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2010-lexus-is_250c-2dr_convertible_automatic-used-18481405.html
I looked at these during my convertible hunt of 2017. You really want the 350. More power, less sludge issues. But harder to find.

Can you get the 350 in the convertible?

qbrozen · January 2019

stickguy said:
I see a Ton of Vroom listings on car.com. But no clue where the cars physically are. I never shopped them for a buy bid.

Much easier to just trade in!

Absolutely. As long as they are willing to play ball. The BMW dealer wouldn't touch the LR or the AR for the money I got.

I'm a tad curious to see what the 330 would fetch, but I haven't even gotten my first bill yet, and I'm pretty sure my wife would kill me in my sleep. I don't know why she was so bent out of shape about the Alfa. I have to keep pointing out that it is costing us less.

Michaell · January 2019

stickguy said:

Michaell said:
Hmmm ….

Vroom came back with an offer of $12,000.

Guess I should call VW Credit and find out what my actual payoff is.
You can do it online through your VW credit account. You just looking to downsize a car?

Yeah, if I can get out of the lease early with only a few hundred out of pocket, I might do that and start being a one car family for a while. I've put less than 500 miles on it in the last month, and it's costing me $300/mo (payment + insurance) to keep around.

Unfortunately, I can't get an on-line payoff from VW Credit - it's not allowed in Colorado. @jpp5862 can confirm this.

I did call VW Credit.. I always figured the payoff was the remaining lease payments plus the residual value. Dude on the phone said no, it's the cap cost less any payments I've made. Umm, OK, I guess I don't see the difference.

However, I was also told that I have to go through the dealer to sell the car. What?

At the end of the conversation, we sorta got a close guess as to the payoff, which is only a couple hundred more than the Vroom offer.

So, I called Vroom to see how it works, from their side. Their offer is good for 10 days or 300 miles, so I've got some time to decide. If I accept, I'll be asked to fill out a bunch of paperwork, at which point I'll be assigned a "document specialist", who will complete the transaction. That person will work with VW Credit and/or the dealer to get the payoff value, at which point I can decide to go forward, or not.

I really like the VW, and will be sad to see it go (if it does go). But, I could use the cushion in the budget for the time being. And, as @breld pointed out, the clock also starts ticking as to when I can replace it, if the wife and I decide that one car isn't enough for us.

qbrozen · January 2019

alright, alright. I looked it up. Carvana hits it about $1500 under my gross cap cost, so definitely not gonna happen on this one. That's fine by me. I could stand to hold one for 24 mos this time around.

Although I'm certain I could transfer it if I really wanted to at some point.

qbrozen · January 2019

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

Michaell said:
Hmmm ….

Vroom came back with an offer of $12,000.

Guess I should call VW Credit and find out what my actual payoff is.
You can do it online through your VW credit account. You just looking to downsize a car?
Yeah, if I can get out of the lease early with only a few hundred out of pocket, I might do that and start being a one car family for a while. I've put less than 500 miles on it in the last month, and it's costing me $300/mo (payment + insurance) to keep around.

Unfortunately, I can't get an on-line payoff from VW Credit - it's not allowed in Colorado. @jpp5862 can confirm this.

I did call VW Credit.. I always figured the payoff was the remaining lease payments plus the residual value. Dude on the phone said no, it's the cap cost less any payments I've made. Umm, OK, I guess I don't see the difference.

However, I was also told that I have to go through the dealer to sell the car. What?

At the end of the conversation, we sorta got a close guess as to the payoff, which is only a couple hundred more than the Vroom offer.

So, I called Vroom to see how it works, from their side. Their offer is good for 10 days or 300 miles, so I've got some time to decide. If I accept, I'll be asked to fill out a bunch of paperwork, at which point I'll be assigned a "document specialist", who will complete the transaction. That person will work with VW Credit and/or the dealer to get the payoff value, at which point I can decide to go forward, or not.

I really like the VW, and will be sad to see it go (if it does go). But, I could use the cushion in the budget for the time being. And, as @breld pointed out, the clock also starts ticking as to when I can replace it, if the wife and I decide that one car isn't enough for us.

Yes, you can go through all the steps and they'll fedex you a payoff statement that you need to sign and fedex back. So you can always start now and decide after you get that statement if you want to move forward.

Just got an email that a transporter will pick up the Alfa on Thursday. If that happens, it will be 15 days from start to finish. I'd have to check my emails, but I think Carvana was less than a week. Of course, we had New Year's in the middle of this process PLUS the fed-exing back and forth, which carvana was happy to do electronically. Go figure.

pensfan83 · January 2019

I'm going to guess around $330-$350/month on the BMW? At that price there's bound to be takers.

au1994 · January 2019

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

Michaell said:
Hmmm ….

Vroom came back with an offer of $12,000.

Guess I should call VW Credit and find out what my actual payoff is.
You can do it online through your VW credit account. You just looking to downsize a car?
Yeah, if I can get out of the lease early with only a few hundred out of pocket, I might do that and start being a one car family for a while. I've put less than 500 miles on it in the last month, and it's costing me $300/mo (payment + insurance) to keep around.

Unfortunately, I can't get an on-line payoff from VW Credit - it's not allowed in Colorado. @jpp5862 can confirm this.

I did call VW Credit.. I always figured the payoff was the remaining lease payments plus the residual value. Dude on the phone said no, it's the cap cost less any payments I've made. Umm, OK, I guess I don't see the difference.

However, I was also told that I have to go through the dealer to sell the car. What?

At the end of the conversation, we sorta got a close guess as to the payoff, which is only a couple hundred more than the Vroom offer.

So, I called Vroom to see how it works, from their side. Their offer is good for 10 days or 300 miles, so I've got some time to decide. If I accept, I'll be asked to fill out a bunch of paperwork, at which point I'll be assigned a "document specialist", who will complete the transaction. That person will work with VW Credit and/or the dealer to get the payoff value, at which point I can decide to go forward, or not.

I really like the VW, and will be sad to see it go (if it does go). But, I could use the cushion in the budget for the time being. And, as @breld pointed out, the clock also starts ticking as to when I can replace it, if the wife and I decide that one car isn't enough for us.

I considered going the 1 car route for a while. I work from home now just not 100% of the time, for instance I’m going in tomorrow and Thursday but that’s the 1st time since mid December. Plus I just ran some errands late this afternoon. Nothing that couldn’t have waited till I had the car but it was still nice to get it done.

So @Michaell it sounds like you are a good candidate for one of those well used BMW’s we were discussing earlier

tifighter · January 2019

kyfdx said:

tifighter said:

stickguy said:
Not sure why, but I actually really like this one. I might have issues.

http://www.royaleasing.com/detail-2010-lexus-is_250c-2dr_convertible_automatic-used-18481405.html
I looked at these during my convertible hunt of 2017. You really want the 350. More power, less sludge issues. But harder to find.
Can you get the 350 in the convertible?

Oh yeah. From the wayback machine-
https://roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/reviews/a14847/2010-lexus-is250c-and-is350c/

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