Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

qbrozen · August 2019

Honestly, are dealers currently not interested in selling inventory? They aren’t even answering their phones, let alone emails and texts. I got one response late last night. I then drove an hour this morn to see this “perfect” vehicle to discover terminal rust where the sun don’t shine.

qbrozen · August 2019

Oh, on the swap side of things, I have had 3 inquiries already. One ghosted, one balked at the $800 and then asked if I could bring the car to ny. LOL. The third is supposedly coming tomorrow morning to see it.

28firefighter · August 2019

It’s the end of the month. Maybe they’re only interested in walk-in ups.

stickguy · August 2019

Emails, and online requests, not surprised. But calling is a lot more serious, so odd they won't bother talking to you.

but yeah, sometimes showing up in person is the way to go.

mjfloyd1 · August 2019

Hopefully I will not offend anyone by hoping you all have a happy and safe Labor Day...

pensfan83 · August 2019

No offense taken here. May everyone enjoy a nice, relaxing 3 day weekend. Forecast for Pittsburgh is mid to high 70s and dry so looking forward to a good weekend.

xwesx · August 2019

qbrozen said:
Oh, on the swap side of things, I have had 3 inquiries already. One ghosted, one balked at the $800 and then asked if I could bring the car to ny. LOL. The third is supposedly coming tomorrow morning to see it.

Sounds about right!

mb_enthusiast · August 2019

qbrozen said:
Honestly, are dealers currently not interested in selling inventory? They aren’t even answering their phones, let alone emails and texts. I got one response late last night. I then drove an hour this morn to see this “perfect” vehicle to discover terminal rust where the sun don’t shine.

qbrozen said:
Oh, on the swap side of things, I have had 3 inquiries already. One ghosted, one balked at the $800 and then asked if I could bring the car to ny. LOL. The third is supposedly coming tomorrow morning to see it.

I can’t understand contemporary dealership behavior either. I’ve been experiencing a similar thing. The large dealership groups have been keeping better track of customers and collecting and sharing their data.

I noticed that I’d been flagged as a “bad lead” by the dealership I eventually leased my Q8 through. The first deal with them blew up when things that we’d agreed upon weren’t reflected in the lease agreement. It blew up even further when the “sales manager” ripped the papers out of my hands when I said I’d like the night to read over them. I’ve also had salespeople seemingly become frustrated with me, asking me if I’m serious because I’d been cross-shopping multiple makes and models. “You’ve sent leads into BMW, Land Rover, and Mercedes. What are you looking to accomplish?” Oh, I dunno...get a good deal on a car that I like... So, these days they are more focused on low information and emotionally attached buyers.

I just met with the salesman selling a GL 63. I told him what time I’d be coming in. But...he was dealing with another customer, and I hate to deal in stereotypes, but I’m sure that she was easier pickings—so she got more attention.

Well, the salesman wasn’t interested in negotiating. I asked him how motivated they were. He started lecturing me about how the price had been reduced multiple times...yes, but it’s also been on this lot since at least April. It’s also both pre-facelift and the outgoing chassis. “It’s priced in.” I don’t think so. It’s higher than the other GL 63s in the area, and it’s lacking a few of the options that AMG buyers typically order. Guy was kind of rude when talking about a pre-purchase inspection demanding that I have my mechanic “ready to go, so I don’t have to be sitting there all day instead of selling cars” Ummm...I’m sure you can drop the car off there or let me take the car there like every other fricking dealer in the area.

I’m not begging for any car, and I’m not paying above NADA trade-in, let alone retail, for something like this. Did I mention that this dealer can’t sell a VSC for it? I have to go to my credit union and finance through them. He didn’t ask me for an offer. Again, not going to beg for any car.

carnaught · August 2019

I think many or most of us car aficionados could tell stories of how, in the course of rough negotiations and taking car delivery, we ticked-off our salesman and/or sales manager and we became “marked” or singled out as a trouble maker. No?

corvette · August 2019

@mb_enthusiast, how did you know you'd been flagged by the dealer as a "bad lead," and how did you end up leasing from them in spite of that?

fintail · August 2019

I suspect I'm not on the good list at MB of Tacoma, who eventually ghosted me. I could see it coming from the time I mentioned "money factor".

stickguy · August 2019

explained to the wife how the interface works on the new RDX, and showed her what would be different even from my car. She was not a great fan, and said she would have to try it out to see if she was OK with it. I did mention that all cars now have some version of touch and controller, instead of old fashioned buttons.

she actually thought the Volvo model sounded best, since she knows how to use an iPhone, so mimicking that would not bother her!

benjaminh · August 2019

stickguy said:
explained to the wife how the interface works on the new RDX, and showed her what would be different even from my car. She was not a great fan, and said she would have to try it out to see if she was OK with it. I did mention that all cars now have some version of touch and controller, instead of old fashioned buttons.

she actually thought the Volvo model sounded best, since she knows how to use an iPhone, so mimicking that would not bother her!

Could she live with a sedan? Does she have to have an SUV? A Volvo S60 sedan with a careful selection of options might be closer to your price range. But maybe trying the RDX system would be useful in case she likes it? And, as you say, Subaru is like a more affordable version of a Volvo. Even ten years ago Subaru interiors were less than ideal, but the 2020 Outback in the upper trims looks very good to me. I think even the top-of-the-line Outback with the turbo engine is less than the base model Volvo wagon.

But I'm now spoiled by the handling and 4-wheel steering of my TLX. I don't think a Subaru is going to have handling that's as good.

benjaminh · August 2019

2019 Volvo V60 T5 Wagon msrp $42k, but discounted to $34k....

https://www.volvoofhasbrouckheights.com/new-inventory/index.htm?search=&model=V60&gvBodyStyle=Wagon

With a good trade-in on 7 year old RDX you might only have 20k left to finance.....?

stickguy · August 2019

She does not want a sedan. She likes sitting up a bit. If she did, could just take the TLX to work. I am paying for the miles!

I actually think, factoring in everything, the new OB is actually the perfect option for us and she would really enjoy driving it. Just need to try one out, and convince her of it. And yes, a Limited XT turbo (a loaded car) will MSRP for a fair bit less than the base price of a Volvo, before you add the option packages that are must haves.

I told her that when we are serious, will have to spend some time playing with the controls, even pairing her phone, using carplay, all that stuff.

stickguy · August 2019

benjaminh said:
2019 Volvo V60 T5 Wagon msrp $42k, but discounted to $34k....

https://www.volvoofhasbrouckheights.com/new-inventory/index.htm?search=&model=V60&gvBodyStyle=Wagon

With a good trade-in on 7 year old RDX you might only have 20k left to finance.....?

yeah, that would be the concept. Use the equity on a purchase and not have a big payment.

that one is not bad, but still expensive for a 2 YO unit, and it is the old body style. The cross country version I found on Carvana was also a 2018, but only $25,100.

benjaminh · August 2019

Or

stickguy said:
She does not want a sedan. She likes sitting up a bit. If she did, could just take the TLX to work. I am paying for the miles!

I actually think, factoring in everything, the new OB is actually the perfect option for us and she would really enjoy driving it. Just need to try one out, and convince her of it. And yes, a Limited XT turbo (a loaded car) will MSRP for a fair bit less than the base price of a Volvo, before you add the option packages that are must haves.

I told her that when we are serious, will have to spend some time playing with the controls, even pairing her phone, using carplay, all that stuff.

The 2020 Outback seems like a good choice. Compared to a base Volvo wagon it has more rear legroom, more cargo space, and more power. Plus it can use regular fuel instead of premium. Insurance is probably lower too.

My local Subaru dealers doesn't actually have any 2020 Outbacks in stock. Several are in transit apparently, and so they should be arriving soon. Getting the very first of the line of an all-new model might be a little bit of a risk.

mb_enthusiast · August 2019

carnaught said:
I think many or most of us car aficionados could tell stories of how, in the course of rough negotiations and taking car delivery, we ticked-off our salesman and/or sales manager and we became “marked” or singled out as a trouble maker. No?

That ultimately depends on the type of enthusiast one is and where one is shopping. I've always been treated with incredible respect and seriousness at all of my local Mercedes-Benz dealerships, and in Chicagoland, there are many. However, I imagine if one is used to dealing in pre-owned cars and used car dealerships, one is more likely to have these sorts of encounters. There is a distinctly different culture between dealership groups and brands too. The McGrath dealerships (Audi, Volvo, Honda, and Acura) are full of very aggressive personalities that engage in blatant hard-sell tactics. They are clearly coached and scripted. It's creepy. By contrast, the Autohaus (Rosengarden family) dealerships (Mercedes-Benz and Toyota) are total pussycats. They obviously tell their salespeople and service people to be very gentle and patient. However, what Autohaus doesn't do is negotiate. They have a take-it-or-leave-it approach to everything.

corvette said:
@mb_enthusiast, how did you know you'd been flagged by the dealer as a "bad lead," and how did you end up leasing from them in spite of that?

I know I'd been flagged, because as we were finalizing the deal, the salesman left the desk for a minute, I went and looked at his computer screen and saw a list of leads. I noticed that I had been flagged as a "BAD LEAD" in red capital letters. I also looked at the computer of another salesman at a Volvo dealership and read all of the notes about other clients: "Ready in March" etc. I ended up leasing from the Audi dealership because they brought in a different "sales manager" to work with me after I complained and left the dealership. Went back in later in the week and shaved off over $6k off of the Monday 'agreement' and achieved all of my objectives regarding the money factor, incentives, Audi Care, trade-in, etc.

stickguy · August 2019

I don't mind being an early adopter, if I trust the brand. I did it with the Scion tC, and Odyssey, this RDX, and probably a few others I can't recall.

I hate getting the old style when I know that new stuff is out there.

benjaminh · August 2019

Subaru press release from a few months ago on the 2020 Outback....

http://media.subaru.com/newsrelease.do?id=1422

The Outback has a CVT, and so people who don't like those might not like the transmission experience.

"The new 2020 Onyx Edition XT features black-finish exterior elements, 18-inch alloy wheels and badging, and an exclusive gray two-tone interior. Further, the seats are wrapped in a new water-repellant durable StarTex™"

So vinyl seats on the Onyx.

stickguy · August 2019

Might be good for old people. you know, just in case...

I went through the configurator and that Onyx model was tempting, because of the price, but I think there were a couple of feature omissions that I would regret not getting. Just don't recall what. Plus, I think the wife would like the styling, wheels and trim on the limited better.

benjaminh · August 2019

Vinyl might be good for dogs. Lasts forever.

Subaru CVTs from the past have sometimes had reliability issues apparently. Some of Subaru's past CVTs were actually made by Jatco, and Jatco CVTs sometimes get mixed reviews. But maybe the 2020 Outback has a new CVT done by Subaru? I don't know....

stickguy · August 2019

not quite sure what it is. Not normal vinyl, like MBtex or the stuff BMW uses (imitation leather). I think it is something along the lines of wet suit material? Something very "active lifestyle". One big problem though, pretty sure it only comes in black!

28firefighter · August 2019

I’ve seriously toyed with replacing the X1 with a second Outback. I’m that happy.

Something is happening to me. If I start buying more flannel and growing my beard, someone slap me.

corvette · August 2019

I liked the vinyl in my 3-series and my GLI just fine. So long as it’s heated, I won’t complain.

28firefighter · August 2019

stickguy said:
not quite sure what it is. Not normal vinyl, like MBtex or the stuff BMW uses (imitation leather). I think it is something along the lines of wet suit material? Something very "active lifestyle". One big problem though, pretty sure it only comes in black!

This is right. A durable composite material designed for a more outdoor use of the Outback.

benjaminh · August 2019

28firefighter said:
I’ve seriously toyed with replacing the X1 with a second Outback. I’m that happy.

Something is happening to me. If I start buying more flannel and growing my beard, someone slap me.

You mean like....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR3eZZcgoZ0&t=154s

nyccarguy · August 2019

I’ve had an interesting experience shopping Porsche Macans for my parents to say the least.

Mom & Dad went back to the dealer that they bought and have serviced their 2016 Cayenne since they bought it 3 years ago. My Mom does a lot of driving and her Porsche SUV currently has about 76,000 miles. Their salesman they worked with last time and thought was great now sells Ferraris in Florida. They called & made an appointment to test drive the Macan. The Salesman did answer all their questions, but had another couple there as well. He kept looking at his watch. My parents expressed interest in a 25,000 mile per year/ 2 year lease. The salesman kept saying: well, she should take a 15K per year lease and “watch her miles” and that they should take a 3 year lease because Porsche usually has a 12 month pull ahead program. They weren’t happy with how they were treated and later that night went on the dealership’s website. They clicked where it said to give them feedback. They ripped the salesman and it got posted to cars.com.

mb_enthusiast · August 2019

nyccarguy said:
I’ve had an interesting experience shopping Porsche Macans for my parents to say the least.

Mom & Dad went back to the dealer that they bought and have serviced their 2016 Cayenne since they bought it 3 years ago. My Mom does a lot of driving and her Porsche SUV currently has about 76,000 miles. Their salesman they worked with last time and thought was great now sells Ferraris in Florida. They called & made an appointment to test drive the Macan. The Salesman did answer all their questions, but had another couple there as well. He kept looking at his watch. My parents expressed interest in a 25,000 mile per year/ 2 year lease. The salesman kept saying: well, she should take a 15K per year lease and “watch her miles” and that they should take a 3 year lease because Porsche usually has a 12 month pull ahead program. They weren’t happy with how they were treated and later that night went on the dealership’s website. They clicked where it said to give them feedback. They ripped the salesman and it got posted to cars.com.

Never listen to that pull forward b.s. You end up paying one way or another.

corvette · August 2019

@nyccarguy I don't know Porsche's numbers, but I suspect he suggested a 3 year lease because the 2 year numbers are terrible, and same for adding additional miles. A 2 year, 25k per year lease would probably be, I'm guessing, $1500/month.

nyccarguy · August 2019

The guy read the review and wasn’t too happy to say the least. I tried to smooth it over via email and I think we’ve moved past it. Bottom line, we found a Macan they like on their lot that has a build date of 1/2019. So it’s been on their lot for at least 5 months!

I email him the specifics of how I want the lease. Explained that we were good customers who have bought a vehicle there and literally have spent thousands of dollars in their service department during the last 12 months. I admittedly put in a lowball offer, but you don’t know until you try. His response was, “I own the car for $X and am not willing to sell for less.” I feel like if I had a trade that I owed more money on than it was worth he would offer me what the car was worth and wouldn’t care how much I owed on it. So now I’ve got his offer, time to email some other dealers.

corvette · August 2019

At least there are plenty of other dealers within a few hours' drive!

stickguy · August 2019

I was in the Porsche dealer down here last week. The (depressingly young) salesguy was very friendly. and they have plenty of cars it seems!

fintail · August 2019

Seattle! Next get a ski rack and leave it on year round, but never go skiing. Be sure to tell everyone about your favorite craft beer and/or food truck. And you MUST have at least one dog, and call it "doggo". Those Subaru badges for hobbies couldn't hurt either. You're a local now!

28firefighter said:
I’ve seriously toyed with replacing the X1 with a second Outback. I’m that happy.

Something is happening to me. If I start buying more flannel and growing my beard, someone slap me.

stickguy · August 2019

28firefighter said:
I’ve seriously toyed with replacing the X1 with a second Outback. I’m that happy.

Something is happening to me. If I start buying more flannel and growing my beard, someone slap me.

I love owner testimonials! I should have taken the wife back for a longer look at the 3.6 OB, but it was really late in the process at the time, and we had kinda settled on the Acura by then. I kinda drove it more out of curiosity, and from a good Honcker number, but really did like it a lot. did not even notice the CVT with the big engine. and none of the reviews I watched mentioned it as an issue.

qbrozen · August 2019

I have an appt Monday morn on a vehicle I feel confident will work out. It isn’t exactly what I want, but its cheaper and in better condition than others I have seen. And at least the seller has been responsive.

nyccarguy · August 2019

Dealer #1 is all in at 10% off sticker, base lease rates & money factor through Porsche Financial.

So I started reaching out to a few other dealers in the area. One on the recommendation of a very good customer of mine who is a Porsche enthusiast who has dealt with the sales manager at a Porsche dealer in NJ (dealer #2). The sales manager from that dealer had one of his salesmen contact me via email. He gives me numbers and everything I ask for. He keeps quoting figures from US Bank which has a lower money factor and residual along with a number that is 8% off sticker. He asks how I want to proceed. I tell him the truth that his selling price is too high.

I start looking at inventory at other dealers. I find one in CT (dealer #3) that suits their tastes and send in an email request. The guy gets back to me with every number I ask for. He’s super responsive and very professional. In the end, his selling price is much higher than dealer #2 and then there is a $695 conveyance (doc) fee tacked on to it.

I also emailed a 4th dealer in NJ. I asked about a few vehicles. They were sold and never taken off the website.

So I email dealer #1 late in the afternoon to tell him we’d like to buy the car from him. I laid out the lease parameters using the selling price he gave me. I’ll see if he gets back to me tomorrow. If not. Next week.

corvette · August 2019

Would it be worth paying a broker from Leasehackr? Some of them will refuse payment and tell you to take the deal you’ve got if they know they can’t do better.

nyccarguy · August 2019

corvette said:
Would it be worth paying a broker from Leasehackr? Some of them will refuse payment and tell you to take the deal you’ve got if they know they can’t do better.

I went down that avenue too. The broker told me I did great with the 10% off deal.

laurasdada · August 2019

Labor day fillup at Costco tonight: $2.84/gal PUG.

nyccarguy · August 2019

mb_enthusiast said:

nyccarguy said:
I’ve had an interesting experience shopping Porsche Macans for my parents to say the least.

Mom & Dad went back to the dealer that they bought and have serviced their 2016 Cayenne since they bought it 3 years ago. My Mom does a lot of driving and her Porsche SUV currently has about 76,000 miles. Their salesman they worked with last time and thought was great now sells Ferraris in Florida. They called & made an appointment to test drive the Macan. The Salesman did answer all their questions, but had another couple there as well. He kept looking at his watch. My parents expressed interest in a 25,000 mile per year/ 2 year lease. The salesman kept saying: well, she should take a 15K per year lease and “watch her miles” and that they should take a 3 year lease because Porsche usually has a 12 month pull ahead program. They weren’t happy with how they were treated and later that night went on the dealership’s website. They clicked where it said to give them feedback. They ripped the salesman and it got posted to cars.com.
Never listen to that pull forward b.s. You end up paying one way or another.

Exactly, unless they are willing to put it in writing in the lease agreement.

tjc78 · August 2019

Only pull ahead worth doing is when you have one from the leasing company during ownership.

I had one from GM last time waiving 4 payments.

At least you have something in writing

qbrozen · August 2019

Since someone is supposed to come see the bimmer, I figured it was time to fill the wife in. She mostly just shook her head pity for my condition. But has apparently quickly gotten on board with my 1-for-2 swap since she is already sending me listings of vehicles she’d like to steal from me when I’m not looking. She did, however, nix my muscle car musings: “you already have the Dodge!” Yet a 2-seater sportscar is OK. Go figure. As much as I’d love one of those, I just can’t make sense of a vehicle I can take just one kid in.

coldinohio · August 2019

i think you'll like driving their Macan if they get it; i enjoy mine and they won't be shocked by the 'privilege of Porsche' service having a Cayenne...
if you have time , check out porsche macan forum ; lots of people discussing prices and how much you can get off MSRP for left over 18 and 19s;; several people order from dealers in Atlanta and Ohio as best pricing via internet sales manager and have shipped or fly/drive
..is it big enough for the Danes?...

nyccarguy said:

mb_enthusiast said:

nyccarguy said:
I’ve had an interesting experience shopping Porsche Macans for my parents to say the least.

Mom & Dad went back to the dealer that they bought and have serviced their 2016 Cayenne since they bought it 3 years ago. My Mom does a lot of driving and her Porsche SUV currently has about 76,000 miles. Their salesman they worked with last time and thought was great now sells Ferraris in Florida. They called & made an appointment to test drive the Macan. The Salesman did answer all their questions, but had another couple there as well. He kept looking at his watch. My parents expressed interest in a 25,000 mile per year/ 2 year lease. The salesman kept saying: well, she should take a 15K per year lease and “watch her miles” and that they should take a 3 year lease because Porsche usually has a 12 month pull ahead program. They weren’t happy with how they were treated and later that night went on the dealership’s website. They clicked where it said to give them feedback. They ripped the salesman and it got posted to cars.com.
Never listen to that pull forward b.s. You end up paying one way or another.
Exactly, unless they are willing to put it in writing in the lease agreement.

breld · August 2019

qbrozen said:
Since someone is supposed to come see the bimmer, I figured it was time to fill the wife in.

I just stopped right there and laughed out loud right here in Starbucks. 😁

tjc78 · August 2019

@qbrozen
I love it. Good luck today sending off the 3!

breld · August 2019

@qbrozen - 2 seater sports car? Did I miss an earlier hint?

I hear you in the limits of such a car with a family. I’m enjoying the flexibility of the GTI as a fun car, but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t miss the Miata.

roadburner · August 2019

We only flagged actively dishonest people or anyone who made the sale more trouble than it was worth.
An example from the first category was a lady who was turning in a leased F30 that needed tires at all four corners. The hit from the tires was going to be $1,200. We offered to waive that charge if she leased another car. At the request of the NCM I went ahead and turned the car in to BMW FS without a tire replacement charge.Next day when the new car was ready for pickup she called and said she changed her mind- she wasn't interested in another lease. My NCM(who was new to BMW) asked if I could unwind the lease turn-in and charge her for the tires, but that ship had sailed. From that point on we never turned the lease vehicle in until the paperwork for the new lease or purchase was completed and the customer took delivery.
A prime example of the second group was a guy who wanted an X5M and wanted us to sell him a set of winter tires/wheels at $500 below our cost to go with it.
Another reason to "fire" a customer was when it was obvious that they were an unhappy and overly critical individual from the minute they walked in the showroom. Those types would inevitably ding us with a bad survey no matter how hard we tried to please them, so I would rather lose a sale than take the hit on the survey.

ab348 · August 2019

It's a tough call on flagging and probably there are bad actors on either side. I got a nasty message back from a sales guy once when he didn't do what he was supposed to do despite several requests from me (the owner's manual on a new car purchase had been "lost" somehow and he was supposed to get a replacement). When I got a survey I mentioned that and he didn't like it. Tough. OTOH I kept quiet another time when the Finance guy I had to deal with on a different lease was so inept that I was there in his office for nearly 3 hours. I figured he wouldn't be long for that place and I was right. On the last ATS purchase I was not happy with my salesguy and simply decided that whatever comes next for me in that department, he would not be part of it. He was very good at promising things but never delivered on most of them. The sales manager was much more helpful which saved the deal. It's been my experience that most salespeople do not like it when the customer knows the vehicle and what they are up to with sales tactics.

qbrozen · August 2019

breld said:
@qbrozen - 2 seater sports car? Did I miss an earlier hint?

I hear you in the limits of such a car with a family. I’m enjoying the flexibility of the GTI as a fun car, but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t miss the Miata.

No earlier hint. Just the 1-for-2 deal. She already approved 1, thinking it was in addition to the bimmer. I had yet to tell her the BMW would be leaving for a cash-buy fun car. There are so many possibilities on the table for this slot. Honestly, believe it or not, a Taurus SHO is looking pretty good. I mean, she nixed all Chrysler/Dodge products thus far. We are cautiously eyeing things like a Quattroporte, TTS, XKR, and CLS550. I’ll start sharing links when I get a chance.

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