Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

qbrozen · September 2019

Someone already suggested an XC60, right?

stickguy · September 2019

the XC 60 is really nice. But those suckers can get real pricey.

28firefighter · September 2019

Speaking of Stelvios, a friend of my mine is starting lemon proceedings on his wife’s 2018.

sda · September 2019

28firefighter said:
Speaking of Stelvios, a friend of my mine is starting lemon proceedings on his wife’s 2018.

Is anyone happy with their Alfa Romeo? Great road test reviews and dreadful ownership reports.

suydam · September 2019

imidazol97 said:

thebean said:
@imidazol97, I think you’re being too sensitive. I didn’t see anyone tearing apart the CT5. We were just commenting on it’s styling, which you have to admit, looks rather plain. You seem to think every comment about GM cars is a condemnation, which they are not. Maybe try a switch to decaf, chief.
I am on decaf.
This crowd is kinder to Genesis... LOL

I did some browsing.
There will be a V version for @roadrunner.
This replaces ATS AND CTS? Hmmmmm.
Has an 8-speaker Bose system. My lowly Malibu has a 9-speaker Pioneer.
https://www.caranddriver.com/cadillac/ct5

I wonder how GM is planning this with sedans. Cadillac gets all the sedans?
Chevy gets the Malibu for 4 more years. Impala is soon completely gone.
LaCrosse is gone soon.

That would be devastating news to my 6’4” son who still mourns the passing of the LeSabre. He doesn’t like SUVs and the Impala is one of the few sedans he can fit in comfortably. He’s got a 2013 Impala and will probably drive it for at least another 5 years.
More love for the Genesis? I think not! You do feel everyone disses GM! I didn’t hear anyone defending the awful Nissan Sentra rental I complained about recently. I think we are all pretty much equal opportunity bashers. Every carmaker makes some good vehicles and some not so good, and we judge them accordingly.

driver100 · September 2019

imidazol97 said:

ab348 said:
(although we all know how certain sites/reviewers love to trash GM).
I haven't even seen the CT5 in person. Is it available? My area Cadillac store doesn't seem to have them in inventory.

https://www.vosscadillac.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI59f8oY-z5AIVAcpkCh3iMAi6EAAYASAAEgJxafD_BwE

How can people be tearing it apart already, based only on a picture on a website? Ridiculous.

Since the CT5 has a 116 in wheelbase compared to 111 for the Impala... since the CT5 has rear wheel drive rather than front wheel drive as does the Impala.... I'd expect substantial differences especially since they are based on different platforms.

Why not give it a chance instead of criticizing it from the beginning even before it hits the streets. Would this be done to a product from [insert another name here] car company?

CT5 may be a different platform from the Impala, but, it looks like the same designer designed it. Cadillac had a unique squarish look that isn't part of this design.

To be balanced and fair....the 2020 CT6 is really nice;

I read that Ford was doing much better with Lincolns than GM was doing with Cadillac. Lincoln concentrated on nice interiors, Cadillac went more for performance. Luxury buyers for these cars don't buy them for performance, they buy them for comfort and ambiance. Cadillac builds its own platforms which is costly, Ford does a makeover of a lesser car....Lincoln buyers don't know and don't care.

stickguy · September 2019

these giant maws, almost makes me miss the old days of the original Passat, Infiniti Q45, and a few others with no grill at all!

laurasdada · September 2019

(Note that I believe I meant to post originally in CCBA, but since I"m a CCSA, perhaps this board is ok)

Yes, I believe I'd like to go a bit smaller. The "updated" XF, to me, wasn't a step up; like the prior XE, an uninspired interior. Really, just a slight update to what I already have. So, in that vein, likely I'd just keep mine and invest the $ into it. Which is still a possiblity.

Regarding Alfa, both Giulia and Stelvio, I'm afraid I"ve been scared straight by:
-My local Alfa dealer turning into a Kia dealer
-The experiences I've read here
-Car and Driver's fairly scathning review of the long term Giulia QF

Tough ending to the LD weekend earlier today; as I exited the GF's CX-5, I heard a loud BANG up around the block. I jog up to the cross street, glance left, a head on collision at the intersection a block away. I call 911 and run over.

It appears an older Ford Escape crossed into the left lane just shy of the 4 way and was hit head on by an Exporer. OUt of the Ecape staggers an elderly gentleman, bleading from multiple lacerations on his nose, looking dazed and confused. In the passenger seat, a large woman on oxygen, looked in shock. In the back seat, a bit of a haggard gentleman who looked to have disabilities, he was kicking his walker out of the car. His left ankly appeared badly broken as the foot was at an unnatural angle. Perhaps pre-existing, but I think not.

The folks in the Exporer seemed ok, but in shock, too. Props to my local PD, FD and EMTs, they were on scene within 3 minutes of my 911 report. One EMT asked if I wss involved/hurt; luckily not. As there was not much I could/should do, I slipped away into the dusk. Shaken, but not nearly so as those involved.

The (at fault) elderly, nose-bleeding driver kept mumbling, "I can't believe I fell asleep at the wheel..." Hopefully, all involved will be as OK as possible. It's a scary world.

And, thoughts to the folks in the Dorian path...

imidazol97 · September 2019

suydam said:
I didn’t hear anyone defending the awful Nissan Sentra rental I complained about recently. I think we are all pretty much equal opportunity bashers.

I haven't driven any Sentra for a long time. People haven't driven this CT4 either.
They haven't even seen one. But the reflex is to criticize and wave it off as meaningless and useless.

I don't criticize the Sentra other than styling. My son has had some small rentals and I get feedback from him on the certain ones that are in rental fleets. He had a Corolla where he like the safety features, although not the full set was on it.

suydam said:
That would be devastating news to my 6’4” son who still mourns the passing of the LeSabre. He doesn’t like SUVs and the Impala is one of the few sedans he can fit in comfortably. He’s got a 2013 Impala and will probably drive it for at least another 5 years.

As to the Impala, it looks like they are still building them on GM's page. They are rare at the GM dealers around here. They must be selling because people know they're ending them soon. Apparently we're getting Canadian built Impalas. US production ended in March.

If I wanted a replacement for my larger Malibu, I'd consider a fully equipped Impala. Same 2.5 normally aspirated engine as my Malibu.

oldfarmer50 · September 2019

laurasdada said:
(Note that I believe I meant to post originally in CCBA, but since I"m a CCSA, perhaps this board is ok)

Yes, I believe I'd like to go a bit smaller. The "updated" XF, to me, wasn't a step up; like the prior XE, an uninspired interior. Really, just a slight update to what I already have. So, in that vein, likely I'd just keep mine and invest the $ into it. Which is still a possiblity.

Regarding Alfa, both Giulia and Stelvio, I'm afraid I"ve been scared straight by:
-My local Alfa dealer turning into a Kia dealer
-The experiences I've read here
-Car and Driver's fairly scathning review of the long term Giulia QF

Tough ending to the LD weekend earlier today; as I exited the GF's CX-5, I heard a loud BANG up around the block. I jog up to the cross street, glance left, a head on collision at the intersection a block away. I call 911 and run over.

It appears an older Ford Escape crossed into the left lane just shy of the 4 way and was hit head on by an Exporer. OUt of the Ecape staggers an elderly gentleman, bleading from multiple lacerations on his nose, looking dazed and confused. In the passenger seat, a large woman on oxygen, looked in shock. In the back seat, a bit of a haggard gentleman who looked to have disabilities, he was kicking his walker out of the car. His left ankly appeared badly broken as the foot was at an unnatural angle. Perhaps pre-existing, but I think not.

The folks in the Exporer seemed ok, but in shock, too. Props to my local PD, FD and EMTs, they were on scene within 3 minutes of my 911 report. One EMT asked if I wss involved/hurt; luckily not. As there was not much I could/should do, I slipped away into the dusk. Shaken, but not nearly so as those involved.

The (at fault) elderly, nose-bleeding driver kept mumbling, "I can't believe I fell asleep at the wheel..." Hopefully, all involved will be as OK as possible. It's a scary world.

And, thoughts to the folks in the Dorian path...

Old folk on meds can pose a real hazard from falling asleep but it’s not just the old folks. One of our drivers in his early 30s fell asleep and put a brand new car into a ditch, totaling it. Turns out he was on meds which made him sleepy. He later got fired because he had trouble showing up for work.

oldfarmer50 · September 2019

imidazol97 said:

suydam said:
I didn’t hear anyone defending the awful Nissan Sentra rental I complained about recently. I think we are all pretty much equal opportunity bashers.
I haven't driven any Sentra for a long time. People haven't driven this CT4 either.
They haven't even seen one. But the reflex is to criticize and wave it off as meaningless and useless.

I don't criticize the Sentra other than styling. My son has had some small rentals and I get feedback from him on the certain ones that are in rental fleets. He had a Corolla where he like the safety features, although not the full set was on it.

As to the Impala, it looks like they are still building them on GM's page. They are rare at the GM dealers around here. They must be selling because people know they're ending them soon. Apparently we're getting Canadian built Impalas. US production ended in March.

There’s nothing wrong with the Sentra if you want basic transportation but if you go from one directly into an Impala or Caddy you’ll certainly notice the difference.

The rental companies bought up a lot of the last run of Impalas so if you get nostalgic you could get one in a year or two. September through November is when we unload a tremendous number of cars on the market.

oldfarmer50 · September 2019

I think I’ll buy one of these so I can get to the supermarket faster when I have a craving for beer and slim Jim’s.

https://youtu.be/NkiyAZ63RT8

ab348 · September 2019

driver100 said:

I read that Ford was doing much better with Lincolns than GM was doing with Cadillac. Lincoln concentrated on nice interiors, Cadillac went more for performance. Luxury buyers for these cars don't buy them for performance, they buy them for comfort and ambiance. Cadillac builds its own platforms which is costly, Ford does a makeover of a lesser car....Lincoln buyers don't know and don't care.

This is a good example of what @imidazol97 and I were talking about. What you read is simply not true in terms of volume. It IS true that the reviews and media reports of the last few years have almost universally been ga-ga over Lincoln. Remember when they first rolled out the Continental? The writers all went crazy over it. Although I have yet to see even one on the roads around here, the writers were saying it was a Great Leap Forward for Ford that would devastate Cadillac. Same now with the reports on their latest SUV interiors. I'm not even sure they are nicer just based on pics alone, but you read all of the same stuff about "hard plastics" and "confusing infotainment systems" in the Cadillac vs the Lincoln. Give me a break, is there any such thing as an infotainment system that isn't confusing to anyone over 40? While it may be true that Lincoln buyers don't care about riding on a Ford platform, I suspect many of those who chose to not buy Lincolns made that decision because they knew they would be riding on a Fusion or Edge chassis.

driver100 · September 2019

oldfarmer50 said:

imidazol97 said:

suydam said:
I didn’t hear anyone defending the awful Nissan Sentra rental I complained about recently. I think we are all pretty much equal opportunity bashers.
I haven't driven any Sentra for a long time. People haven't driven this CT4 either.
They haven't even seen one. But the reflex is to criticize and wave it off as meaningless and useless.

I don't criticize the Sentra other than styling. My son has had some small rentals and I get feedback from him on the certain ones that are in rental fleets. He had a Corolla where he like the safety features, although not the full set was on it.

As to the Impala, it looks like they are still building them on GM's page. They are rare at the GM dealers around here. They must be selling because people know they're ending them soon. Apparently we're getting Canadian built Impalas. US production ended in March.

The rental companies bought up a lot of the last run of Impalas so if you get nostalgic you could get one in a year or two. September through November is when we unload a tremendous number of cars on the market.

Should be good prices for used Impalas...on the Top 9 list of fastest depreciating cars.
4. Chevrolet Impala
It seems that regardless of what you do, there are always unintended consequences. Take the case of the Impala. Chevy used it to go after the Toyota Avalon and become the highest selling sedan in America. Tons of promotion (i.e. incentives to consumers and to dealers) pumped Impalas out onto the highways at record rates. The backside is that used market quickly becomes flooded as owners decide the Chevy Impala wasn’t such a deal after all. The result is the first car on out list to have lost over a third of its value in one year (-33.5%), a cash difference of $10,800. Looking for a car so you can start driving for Uber?

Cadillac CTS is interesting:
3. Cadillac CTS
In 2002 the Cadillac CTS was introduced to replace the Catera (not a very high bar). Since then, the CTS has been named to the Car and Driver 10 Best list six times and have won the Motor Trend Car of the Year award twice. So what gives? For the 2015 Caddy jacked up the price, and in order to clear 2014s and start selling 2015s lucrative discounts were applied. haven’t we heard this story before? In the first year the CTS dropped -36.9% off sticker, an equivalent of $20,000

Like I say about the Genesis....great reviews when it comes out.....then the truth becomes apparent:
1. Hyundai Genesis
Wow, what a shellacking. Image your premium sedan entry losing nearly 40% of its value in the first year. The Hyundai Genesis at first appeared to be an alternative to the Lexus GS. Sure, its styling was a little dated (the 2015 model is much better) but with a $39K MSRP versus the Lexus GS sticker of $50K for what were otherwise comparable cars, the Korean car seemed like a deal. Sort of. You had to add a few $K of options to match the Lexus equipment, and if you were expecting Lexus reliability and white-glove dealer service, it wasn’t going to happen. First-year price difference: -38.2%, a drop of $16,600 on a $40K-ish car. Wow – these cars lose some serious value!

9 Cars that depreciate the most in the first year

driver100 · September 2019

laurasdada
Hope you slept OK last night....I hate the thought of coming upon the scene of an accident!

oldfarmer50 · September 2019

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

imidazol97 said:

suydam said:
I didn’t hear anyone defending the awful Nissan Sentra rental I complained about recently. I think we are all pretty much equal opportunity bashers.
I haven't driven any Sentra for a long time. People haven't driven this CT4 either.
They haven't even seen one. But the reflex is to criticize and wave it off as meaningless and useless.

I don't criticize the Sentra other than styling. My son has had some small rentals and I get feedback from him on the certain ones that are in rental fleets. He had a Corolla where he like the safety features, although not the full set was on it.

As to the Impala, it looks like they are still building them on GM's page. They are rare at the GM dealers around here. They must be selling because people know they're ending them soon. Apparently we're getting Canadian built Impalas. US production ended in March.

The rental companies bought up a lot of the last run of Impalas so if you get nostalgic you could get one in a year or two. September through November is when we unload a tremendous number of cars on the market.
Should be good prices for used Impalas...on the Top 9 list of fastest depreciating cars.
4. Chevrolet Impala
It seems that regardless of what you do, there are always unintended consequences. Take the case of the Impala. Chevy used it to go after the Toyota Avalon and become the highest selling sedan in America. Tons of promotion (i.e. incentives to consumers and to dealers) pumped Impalas out onto the highways at record rates. The backside is that used market quickly becomes flooded as owners decide the Chevy Impala wasn’t such a deal after all. The result is the first car on out list to have lost over a third of its value in one year (-33.5%), a cash difference of $10,800. Looking for a car so you can start driving for Uber?

Cadillac CTS is interesting:
3. Cadillac CTS
In 2002 the Cadillac CTS was introduced to replace the Catera (not a very high bar). Since then, the CTS has been named to the Car and Driver 10 Best list six times and have won the Motor Trend Car of the Year award twice. So what gives? For the 2015 Caddy jacked up the price, and in order to clear 2014s and start selling 2015s lucrative discounts were applied. haven’t we heard this story before? In the first year the CTS dropped -36.9% off sticker, an equivalent of $20,000

Like I say about the Genesis....great reviews when it comes out.....then the truth becomes apparent:
1. Hyundai Genesis
Wow, what a shellacking. Image your premium sedan entry losing nearly 40% of its value in the first year. The Hyundai Genesis at first appeared to be an alternative to the Lexus GS. Sure, its styling was a little dated (the 2015 model is much better) but with a $39K MSRP versus the Lexus GS sticker of $50K for what were otherwise comparable cars, the Korean car seemed like a deal. Sort of. You had to add a few $K of options to match the Lexus equipment, and if you were expecting Lexus reliability and white-glove dealer service, it wasn’t going to happen. First-year price difference: -38.2%, a drop of $16,600 on a $40K-ish car. Wow – these cars lose some serious value!

9 Cars that depreciate the most in the first year

Looks like a list of used car bargains.

driver100 · September 2019

ab348 said:

driver100 said:

I read that Ford was doing much better with Lincolns than GM was doing with Cadillac. Lincoln concentrated on nice interiors, Cadillac went more for performance. Luxury buyers for these cars don't buy them for performance, they buy them for comfort and ambiance. Cadillac builds its own platforms which is costly, Ford does a makeover of a lesser car....Lincoln buyers don't know and don't care.
This is a good example of what @imidazol97 and I were talking about. What you read is simply not true in terms of volume. It IS true that the reviews and media reports of the last few years have almost universally been ga-ga over Lincoln. Remember when they first rolled out the Continental? The writers all went crazy over it. Although I have yet to see even one on the roads around here, the writers were saying it was a Great Leap Forward for Ford that would devastate Cadillac. .

I think what they were saying was Lincoln was being smarter in the way they were marketing the Lincoln compared to Cadillac. They use better materials for the interior, make it feel luxurious, but use Ford bare bones because most luxury car buyers don't care about performance. Cadillac tried to copy BMW and MB, tried to outdo them mechanically...but, that is not where Cadillacs market is.
I think it is brilliant that Ford keeps the price lower on a prestigious nameplate. I have two friends who have new Lincoln MKZs......a luxury car they can afford.....they couldn't care less about 0 to 60 times.
The article I read said Ford made the Nautilus much better than the Escalade.....much nicer interior.
For some reason Ford seldom outsells GM, so volume doesn't mean much - profitability may mean more.

ab348 · September 2019

driver100 said:

Should be good prices for used Impalas...on the Top 9 list of fastest depreciating cars.
4. Chevrolet Impala
It seems that regardless of what you do, there are always unintended consequences. Take the case of the Impala. Chevy used it to go after the Toyota Avalon and become the highest selling sedan in America. Tons of promotion (i.e. incentives to consumers and to dealers) pumped Impalas out onto the highways at record rates. The backside is that used market quickly becomes flooded as owners decide the Chevy Impala wasn’t such a deal after all. The result is the first car on out list to have lost over a third of its value in one year (-33.5%), a cash difference of $10,800. Looking for a car so you can start driving for Uber?

I'm not so sure about this story. I don't recall ever seeing great incentives on the Impala. And as for the line "pumped Impalas out onto the highways at record rates", that's news to me. The Impala was a big disappointment to GM in terms of sales as it just never caught on with buyers because it was too big and wasn't a SUV. Rental car companies did like it of course, just as they like Fusions and Altimas. They make for a great used-car buy, especially if you find one in nicer trims and colors.

imidazol97 · September 2019

ab348 said:
While it may be true that Lincoln buyers don't care about riding on a Ford platform, I suspect may of those who chose to not buy Lincolns made that decision because they knew they would be riding on a Fusion or Edge chassis.

I recall a few years back GM was roundly being criticized for repurposing platforms--building other models on the original platform. Now, when it's convenient criticism, GM is criticized for origination a unique platform for their Cadillacs? GAB (gimme a break). I have seen this same hypocrisy. When it's challenged it's twisted around and around as actually meaning something different.

Every time I see certain Lincolns, I'm trying to visualize the other Ford that shares that platform.

Many years back, toyota redesigned the avalon. It was fully praised by the MSautoM. I read Edmunds reviews and had noticed they mentioned the avalon was on a camry platform stretched (just like Park Avenue and some Cadillacs in the 90s and 00s shared the H platform, stretched, by GM.

I remember a toyota salesperson who fully advocated for anything toyota who told me I was wrong. He KNEW.
I quoted the Edmunds article for them. I believe he also said everything was unique to the new avalon, if I'm remember the right topics. All new parts unique to the higher quality automobile. I started citing the part numbers for the shared major parts of the vehicle, some from rockauto.com

So cars often share more than some want to admit. The folks around here driving their Lincoln with their noses up likely would reconsider had they knows the commonality.

IIRC during the development of the now 3 year old Accord, it was developed on the Civic platform. I notice in the descriptions on the net the naming of the platforms for the two is not where I can find it. I want to see if it's the same.

qbrozen · September 2019

28firefighter said:
Speaking of Stelvios, a friend of my mine is starting lemon proceedings on his wife’s 2018.

What is the specific issue?

tjc78 · September 2019

@driver100
Your list is skewed by a fact that others have brought up.... actual transaction price!!

The Impala and CTS for sure command big discounts from sticker. So, look at it this way:

Impala - Let's say 40K MSRP. All day long you buy it for 32K.

Using the 33.5% loss stated in one year, it would be worth $26,600.

Taking the fact you paid 32K; the net loss is 16.9 % or $5400

BIG difference.

imidazol97 · September 2019

Depreciation is based on the list pricing. Scrupulous buyers often get a vehicle at a discount negotiating at the dealer. Nothing talks like a wallet walking out of the showroom door without buying after having made a low offer.

While the toyota store was adding hundreds in doc fees and unpacking fees to raise their price, sometimes about sticker, GM and others were reducing prices to move the merchandise to keep the factory running due to the reality of fixed based costs of operation.

I got a really good deal on my 14 Malibu during the March push they had nationally. I listened to the salesman on the phone in the next booth tell a GM employee discount buyer that the markdowns occuring were about the same as the GM price that person would pay. I quickly checked over my offering price for the car my saleslady was searching to bring in for me.

So my Malibu didn't have the first year or the three year depreciation drop the statistics folks would ascribe to it.
If I'd bought a Honda or Camry, I'd likely have suffered a higher drop.

imidazol97 · September 2019

A comment I found about the CT5 rear window being more extended than the little triangles on many sedans...
"Because China is this vehicle's key luxury market, it was important that the rear seat be spacious as that's where the owner or special passengers ride."

tjc78 · September 2019

I remember a toyota salesperson who fully advocated for anything toyota who told me I was wrong. He KNEW.
I quoted the Edmunds article for them. I believe he also said everything was unique to the new avalon, if I'm remember the right topics. All new parts unique to the higher quality automobile. I started citing the part numbers for the shared major parts of the vehicle, some from rockauto.com

The Avalon always shared major components with the V6 Camry (as did the Lexus ES)... the big confusion came in 2005 when the "new" Avalon was introduced. The chassis was heavily modified and stretched along with an all new engine, the 2GR V6. The 2007 Camry was then given the updated platform and the 2GR V6, along with the Highlander and RX SUVs.

I know we had words years ago on this and to a point we are both right....

To think that the Avalon isn't anything than a stretched V6 Camry is wrong.

There are virtually no higher end autos that don't share their roots with more mainstream options (even if the car isn't offered in this country).

tjc78 · September 2019

A comment I found about the CT5 rear window being more extended than the little triangles on many sedans...
"Because China is this vehicle's key luxury market, it was important that the rear seat be spacious as that's where the owner or special passengers ride."

Makes sense... the sedan market in this country is dwindling. I'd venture to say most manufacturers simply don't make much money on them.

houdini2 · September 2019

jmonroe1 said:

venture said:
"All this is making me think in terms of a more mainstream car next time around....a C Class or 3 Series."

You should drive what you like.
I agree and I have said this before, "if you even THINK about how much the car you just bought is going to depreciate, you cannot afford that car".

jmonroe

If buying a new car ever became just a rational decision, no one would buy one.

houdini2 · September 2019

bwia said:
@driver100, you mentioned buying a mainstream car instead of a G80 or E400. Here is a candidate for your consideration, the 2020 Cadillac CT5.

Cadillac lists the base-model CT5 Luxury as starting well under $40,000, and that includes destination charges.
For that price you get the rear wheel drive 2.0-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engine producing 237 horsepower and 10-speed automatic transmission. Other standard features include a wide range of driver-assist systems, with forward collision alert and automatic emergency braking being among them. A 10-inch touch screen and keyless push-button start are also spiffy standard-issue tech features.
If you want a bit more power, definitely expect to pay a bit more. Also, Cadillac was keen to point out these prices do not include vehicles equipped with Super Cruise.

Why can't Lexus come up with a clean, simple, elegant front end like that?

laurasdada · September 2019

Thanks, Driver. Slept OK, the accident happened early in the evening so I could process it. Really a sad sight, I imagine even before the accident, the condition of the people in the Escape. Health first.

I still believe Caddy's pricing scheme contributed to their issues. While they may have been building competitive"European" type cars, they weren't building a better mouse trap. Yet, they priced them like they were. Toyota/Lexus laid out a blueprint in '89; Caddy ignored it. Toyota built a MB S class, priced it more Toyota than MB. Toyota was forward looking (I'll believe), priced to build market share and establish the brand. Caddy was a bit arrogant, "We've built a BMW 3 competitor! It's just as good, so you'll pay just as much for it!" Probably simplistic, but a theory.

snakeweasel · September 2019

driver100 said:

ab348 said:

driver100 said:

I read that Ford was doing much better with Lincolns than GM was doing with Cadillac. Lincoln concentrated on nice interiors, Cadillac went more for performance. Luxury buyers for these cars don't buy them for performance, they buy them for comfort and ambiance. Cadillac builds its own platforms which is costly, Ford does a makeover of a lesser car....Lincoln buyers don't know and don't care.
This is a good example of what @imidazol97 and I were talking about. What you read is simply not true in terms of volume. It IS true that the reviews and media reports of the last few years have almost universally been ga-ga over Lincoln. Remember when they first rolled out the Continental? The writers all went crazy over it. Although I have yet to see even one on the roads around here, the writers were saying it was a Great Leap Forward for Ford that would devastate Cadillac. .
I think what they were saying was Lincoln was being smarter in the way they were marketing the Lincoln compared to Cadillac. They use better materials for the interior, make it feel luxurious, but use Ford bare bones because most luxury car buyers don't care about performance. Cadillac tried to copy BMW and MB, tried to outdo them mechanically...but, that is not where Cadillacs market is.
I think it is brilliant that Ford keeps the price lower on a prestigious nameplate. I have two friends who have new Lincoln MKZs......a luxury car they can afford.....they couldn't care less about 0 to 60 times.
The article I read said Ford made the Nautilus much better than the Escalade.....much nicer interior.
For some reason Ford seldom outsells GM, so volume doesn't mean much - profitability may mean more.

One thing about Lincoln, especially with their larger vehicles like the Town Car and Continental is that they build them not to be drivers cars but to be passenger cars. These cars are usually sold to people who are going to drive them in a commercial capacity or have someone else drive them in it. So Lincoln designs cars for the passenger experience, not the drivers.

abacomike · September 2019

After reading the many posts these last 2 days, it became apparent to me that three main issues have surfaced:

Cadillac vs Lincoln
Depreciation
GM bashing?

I have driven the CT6 and the Continental. The CT6 is heads and shoulders above the Continental in terms of styling, performance and technology. The Lincoln’s interior seemed plusher, however the Cadillac handled and out-performed the Lincoln. I would definitely give the CT5 a look-see before commenting on anything I saw or read in the print media.

When it comes to the Genesis, as far as depreciation is concerned, Hyundai vehicles, since their very introduction into the US market, had awful resale and wholesale values. They were a car salesman’s and used car manager’s nightmare when it came to negotiating a deal with a Hyundai trade. That is why I would never “buy” a Genesis - but I would “lease” one because of their inflated residuals. Nothing personal, jmonroe - the Genesis is a great car for the money, but...when it comes to trading it in...! Depreciation on my S450 is disgusting. That’s why I leased it rather than buy it.

Now, for GM bashing. I personally believe this has been caused by the bad reputation GM had during the 1980’s through the turn of the century and a bit beyond, perpetrated by the media and disgruntled GM owners at the time. It’s going to take more time for this bashing to ebb so long as GM produces great cars consistently.

driver100 · September 2019

tjc78 said:
@driver100
Your list is skewed by a fact that others have brought up.... actual transaction price!!

The Impala and CTS for sure command big discounts from sticker. So, look at it this way:
Impala - Let's say 40K MSRP. All day long you buy it for 32K.
Using the 33.5% loss stated in one year, it would be worth $26,600.
Taking the fact you paid 32K; the net loss is 16.9 % or $5400
BIG difference.

I agree, but, I like to use the MSRP as the real gauge because GM thought the car would sell for $40k, when it didn't move they give it a bargain basement price of $32k. It gives me a better idea of what people thought of the car to get the full depreciation value....but, I know, in the back of my mind the car never sold for the full $40k.

Looking at it another way, the car seems to be a great bargain if you buy a used one and can save 33% after one year..........but if the depreciation is only 17% maybe I am better off buying a Toyota.

driver100 · September 2019

Mike, I agree with everything you said, but, I don't think there was GM bashing. The way a car looks is subjective, there are lots of cars that get uglier when new models come out. I like my 2015 E400 more than the 2017 model. I think Cadillac had a unique squarish look.....they lost it with the 5 but they made it even better on the 6.

tjc78 · September 2019

like to use the MSRP as the real gauge because GM thought the car would sell for $40k

No they didn't.... that price is inflated because customers have been trained that GM = big discounts.

Same with many other brands and even other industries.

bwia · September 2019

Edit

abacomike · September 2019

driver100 said:
Mike, I agree with everything you said, but, I don't think there was GM bashing. The way a car looks is subjective, there are lots of cars that get uglier when new models come out. I like my 2015 E400 more than the 2017 model. I think Cadillac had a unique squarish look.....they lost it with the 5 but they made it even better on the 6.

My comment about “bashing” had nothing to do with “looks” or “styling”! It had to do with producing vehicles which were poorly engineered or conceived. An example would be the Cadillac V-8-6-4 engine. I owned one those. Another was a 2000 Pontiac Bonneville V6 that leaked water into my trunk after they tried 5 times to identify the source of the leak. I lemon-pawed that car. Never bought another GM product. Am I open to a GM product now? Maybe - I liked the CT6.

ab348 · September 2019

To be clear, I don't think there is any more GM bashing by posters here than there is for any other make. My criticism of that is directed at various auto publications and website reviews, this being among them (the comparo a couple of months of of the new Blazer vs Passport being a prime example). They know their prime audience is likely under-40 buyers who grew up as part of the Toyonda generation and they hire reviewers accordingly, so those biases are baked in.

imidazol97 · September 2019

abacomike said:

When it comes to the Genesis, as far as depreciation is concerned, Hyundai vehicles, since their very introduction into the US market, had awful resale and wholesale values. They were a car salesman’s and used car manager’s nightmare when it came to negotiating a deal with a Hyundai trade. That is why I would never “buy” a Genesis - but I would “lease” one because of their inflated residuals. Nothing personal, jmonroe - the Genesis is a great car for the money, but...when it comes to trading it in...! Depreciation on my S450 is disgusting. That’s why I leased it rather than buy it.

Looks to me that depreciation, for folks in this crowd, is a paper tiger question. If someone likes a vehicle, they should buy it, especially if they plan to keep it for the long term. In fact, if someone is planning to keep a vehicle for the long term buying new or recently used CPO makes little difference in the cost per year.

E.g., if in 2 years my son wants my 14 Malibu with 50K miles on it and I want a new Impala, I'd have to find a CPO that has all the options I want, but I'd be perfectly happy buying used to replace my Malibu.

My one factor I notice is that many of the newer sedans are lower and harder to get into now. My Malibu sits a little higher than the new Malibu, but it's noticeably different to get in and out. Maybe I'll buy a Traxx.

I pointed out a Soul the other day and my wife had unkind words about the external style that I won't repeat here since I don't want to start a bashing war. I could live with one especially to replace the Cobalt because it's easier in and out then is the Cobalt.

oldfarmer50 · September 2019

“Every time I see certain Lincolns, I'm trying to visualize the other Ford that shares that platform.”

With cars like the MKZ it isn’t had to see the Fusion underneath. The Town Car was pretty similar to the Crown Vic. Some other Lincolns, not so much.

My MarkVIII was so different from the Thunderbird/Cougar siblings that I never realized they were all on the same basic platform. Engine, suspension and interior were completely different.

Does sharing a platform define a car? How about the Chrysler 300, Charger, Challenger trio? Pretty different.

fintail · September 2019

Not sure if I buy that, seems like more of a goofy decision made by a stylist and approved by a goofy cradle to grave style exec, who is now facing heat (but will dodge accountability). I think CT6 might be more of a car to be driven in, CT5 is owner-operated, so to speak.

imidazol97 said:
A comment I found about the CT5 rear window being more extended than the little triangles on many sedans...
"Because China is this vehicle's key luxury market, it was important that the rear seat be spacious as that's where the owner or special passengers ride."

fintail · September 2019

I suspect a huge amount of Sentra production goes right into fleets as well. There are certain cars I sometimes give a wide berth to when I encounter them on the road, that's one of them.

oldfarmer50 said:

There’s nothing wrong with the Sentra if you want basic transportation but if you go from one directly into an Impala or Caddy you’ll certainly notice the difference.

The rental companies bought up a lot of the last run of Impalas so if you get nostalgic you could get one in a year or two. September through November is when we unload a tremendous number of cars on the market.

ab348 · September 2019

houdini2 said:

Why can't Lexus come up with a clean, simple, elegant front end like that?

Reminds me too much of a Mazda front end. But I agree, it is better than what Lexus is offering in that dept.

28firefighter · September 2019

qbrozen said:

28firefighter said:
Speaking of Stelvios, a friend of my mine is starting lemon proceedings on his wife’s 2018.
What is the specific issue?

30+ days in the shop for electrical issues that have caused the dash to light up like a Christmas Tree and leave the vehicle dead in the morning, constantly leaking windshield wiper fluid reservoir, plus a myriad of fit and finish issues.

berri · September 2019

I think depreciation is an issue if you are shorter term owner or are comparing several vehicles you are interested in.

dino001 · September 2019

driver100 said:

tjc78 said:
@driver100
Your list is skewed by a fact that others have brought up.... actual transaction price!!

The Impala and CTS for sure command big discounts from sticker. So, look at it this way:
Impala - Let's say 40K MSRP. All day long you buy it for 32K.
Using the 33.5% loss stated in one year, it would be worth $26,600.
Taking the fact you paid 32K; the net loss is 16.9 % or $5400
BIG difference.
I agree, but, I like to use the MSRP as the real gauge because GM thought the car would sell for $40k, when it didn't move they give it a bargain basement price of $32k. It gives me a better idea of what people thought of the car to get the full depreciation value....but, I know, in the back of my mind the car never sold for the full $40k.

Looking at it another way, the car seems to be a great bargain if you buy a used one and can save 33% after one year..........but if the depreciation is only 17% maybe I am better off buying a Toyota.

I disagree. Big discount for a new car is not a depreciation problem, but mispricing issue and market positioning.
Depreciation percentage measured off MSRP is a useless gauge of cost for a consumer who expects buying the vehicle at large discount. It does not inform you how much it will cost you to have this car over next number of years. It only informs you that the manufacturer put an unrealistic price sticker on the car.

I think main reason for GM and other companies (domestic, Korean) to keep those unrealistic stickers to allow consumers roll in negative equity from their previous domestic purchase and keep bank from asking too many questions (especially if the bank is also a captive). This way things still look great and the loans look properly secured with enough collateral and the auditors can't raise concerns with risk.

dino001 · September 2019

imidazol97 said:

abacomike said:

When it comes to the Genesis, as far as depreciation is concerned, Hyundai vehicles, since their very introduction into the US market, had awful resale and wholesale values. They were a car salesman’s and used car manager’s nightmare when it came to negotiating a deal with a Hyundai trade. That is why I would never “buy” a Genesis - but I would “lease” one because of their inflated residuals. Nothing personal, jmonroe - the Genesis is a great car for the money, but...when it comes to trading it in...! Depreciation on my S450 is disgusting. That’s why I leased it rather than buy it.
Looks to me that depreciation, for folks in this crowd, is a paper tiger question. If someone likes a vehicle, they should buy it, especially if they plan to keep it for the long term. In fact, if someone is planning to keep a vehicle for the long term buying new or recently used CPO makes little difference in the cost per year.

E.g., if in 2 years my son wants my 14 Malibu with 50K miles on it and I want a new Impala, I'd have to find a CPO that has all the options I want, but I'd be perfectly happy buying used to replace my Malibu.

My one factor I notice is that many of the newer sedans are lower and harder to get into now. My Malibu sits a little higher than the new Malibu, but it's noticeably different to get in and out. Maybe I'll buy a Traxx.

I pointed out a Soul the other day and my wife had unkind words about the external style that I won't repeat here since I don't want to start a bashing war. I could live with one especially to replace the Cobalt because it's easier in and out then is the Cobalt.

Depreciation is a classic "buying for next guy" issue. I agree with you, if you like the car and you keep it long time, it's a NON-issue. If you buy/lease cars every year, two, or three, yeah, it's an issue. It can also be an issue if you total a car that you intended to keep long time, as most collision/comprehensive policies are underwritten for actual cash value, not replacement.

BTW, I think Hyundai/Kia vehicle values are much better today than they used to be, as the vehicles themselves are much better. Genesis is a different animal - its problem is mostly in the dealer network, not the car itself. You can't sell "premium/luxury" item from a makeshift kiosk at a mall. Genesis should have been a project for 10-15 years and Hyundai should have taken a page from Toyota's Lexus play. Seems they run out of steam and interest in year two. I think it will either be folded in next five years, or Hyundai will have to shell out substantially more money to give it a second life.

imidazol97 · September 2019

dino001 said:

You can't sell "premium/luxury" item from a makeshift kiosk at a mall. Genesis should have been a project for 10-15 years and Hyundai should have taken a page from Toyota's Lexus play. Seems they run out of steam and interest in year two. I think it will either be folded in next five years, or Hyundai will have to shell out substantially more money to give it a second life.

X2

stickguy · September 2019

i think Genesis will still be around, but I can see it being sold more out of Hyundai stores again.

berri · September 2019

One of my kids was looking at the closeout deals on the Toyota Highlander. Very good incentives where she lives. She road in a new Kia Telluride that one of her friends just bought. After comparing, test driving and pricing both she ended up with the Telluride. She felt the Kia was a nicer car with more features and the latest tech. The Kia dealer also didn't have all that Toyota dealer add on packs and inflated doc fees. Obviously, all this varies by the local market and individual's preferences, but I wonder if the upcoming Highlander will have some strong competition when it comes out. She noted that the prior Kia Sorrento, which is the predecessor to the Telluride has a pretty good CR reliability history. She was always a Toyota loyalist until now. Personally, I'll be curious how it a works out down the road.

stickguy · September 2019

I talked to a few telluride owners that loved them. The current highlander is pretty long in the tooth. Dead reliable though, but old school.

laurasdada · September 2019

28firefighter said:

qbrozen said:

28firefighter said:
Speaking of Stelvios, a friend of my mine is starting lemon proceedings on his wife’s 2018.
What is the specific issue?
30+ days in the shop for electrical issues that have caused the dash to light up like a Christmas Tree and leave the vehicle dead in the morning, constantly leaking windshield wiper fluid reservoir, plus a myriad of fit and finish issues.

So sad. Why can't Alfa right the QC ship? My Jags haven't been Toyota/Honda like in reliability, but nothing to scare me away from another. Or recommending to others. Unless you need the latest, fastest tech...

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