Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations

imidazol97 · February 2020

driver100 said:
Mrs D flew home for a few days....can't be gone for more than 2 months at a time for some reason. She got there last night, took the GLK off the trickle charger, drove one block to a neighbors house to pick up the mail.....the temperature was -10F.......unusually cold.
She drove home....car wouldn't start for her this morning. Took Uber to a doctors appointment. Called AAA, they came, boosted her car to start it. She drove it to Mercedes dealer.
Here is the lesson to be learned:
This is what the service advisor theorizes; The trickle charger probably doesn't keep the batteries power topped up, it allows just enough of a charge to keep all the instruments and settings working. Will probably start the car, but, under extreme conditions like this....very cold, the battery won't be kept charged very much.
She is going out of town this afternoon, hoping the driving will keep the battery charged enough.

Is it a float charger or a trickle charger? The explanation frmo the MB store doesn't seem right.

If the battery is very low despite the trickle charger, then driving 1 block and back should have had the alternator putting lots of current back into charging the battery during that short time. Car should have starter better than when first taken off the trickle charger...

https://itstillruns.com/difference-float-charger-trickle-charger-7646389.html

explorerx4 · February 2020

Considering the job of a trickle charger is is to keep the battery charged, it doesn't seem to be working very well.

driver100 · February 2020

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:
Mrs D flew home for a few days....can't be gone for more than 2 months at a time for some reason. She got there last night, took the GLK off the trickle charger, drove one block to a neighbors house to pick up the mail.....the temperature was -10F.......unusually cold.
She drove home....car wouldn't start for her this morning. Took Uber to a doctors appointment. Called AAA, they came, boosted her car to start it. She drove it to Mercedes dealer.
Here is the lesson to be learned:
This is what the service advisor theorizes; The trickle charger probably doesn't keep the batteries power topped up, it allows just enough of a charge to keep all the instruments and settings working. Will probably start the car, but, under extreme conditions like this....very cold, the battery won't be kept charged very much.
She is going out of town this afternoon, hoping the driving will keep the battery charged enough.
Is it a float charger or a trickle charger? The explanation frmo the MB store doesn't seem right.

If the battery is very low despite the trickle charger, then driving 1 block and back should have had the alternator putting lots of current back into charging the battery during that short time. Car should have starter better than when first taken off the trickle charger...

https://itstillruns.com/difference-float-charger-trickle-charger-7646389.html

I had not heard the term "Float Charger" before...but, that is what it must be, as you don't turn it on or off. btw...haven't had a problem using one on the Florida car for 9 years, and the ones on the at home cars for 5 years.

The car started the first time, she drove it to the neighbours in -10F temperature....it is about 1/10th of a mile, stayed and talked, drove it home 1/10th of a mile, it sat in the garage -0 F overnight...then wouldn't start. I doubt the battery got charged up at all with the short run.

She went out of town this afternoon, went to lunch, came back, 30 miles each way, and it seems fine...but, will put the ~~trickle~~ float charger on it tonight.

Thanks for the info and thoughts.

driver100 · February 2020

explorerx4 said:
Considering the job of a trickle charger is is to keep the battery charged, it doesn't seem to be working very well.

The real job is to keep enough electricity flowing to keep all the electronics charged up....could cost $1000s to reprogram everything. Usually it maintains enough power to keep the battery going.....but, I think -10F zaps a battery that has a minimum charge. There is also a possibility, she didn't set it up properly when she went home in December...but, don't want to mention that!

driver100 · February 2020

I don't know about this ad from my MB dealer back home:
YOU ARE INVITED TO OUR SNOW DAYS EVENT ON FEBRUARY 18-22!
We would like to invite you to our upcoming Mercedes Snow Days Event happening on Feb 18-22 here in our dealership. If you currently have a Mercedes-Benz vehicle, our team would like to offer you a complimentary trade evaluation.You may have an opportunity to drive a brand new, similar model as what you have now and pay the same or lower monthly payments with our current offers.

Since it is so cold....and there is a bit of snow on the ground, they are going to give you a fabulous deal. Probably a slow time of year to begin with and they probably aren't selling too many cars in this -10F weather. But, what really gets me is, " If you currently have a Mercedes-Benz vehicle, our team would like to offer you a complimentary trade evaluation". WOW, I should fly back to get my free complimentary trade evaluation!

Reminds m of the realtors....let us come and evaluate your home for FREE, and let you know what it is worth.

explorerx4 · February 2020

@driver100,
That's not how a good trickle charger works.
It keeps the battery close to 100% charged.

driver100 · February 2020

explorerx4 said:
@driver100,
That's not how a good trickle charger works.
It keeps the battery close to 100% charged.

What about a float charger? And, what if it wasn't plugged in properly, I doubt if Mrs D double checks to see which lights are on once the charger has been on for awhile...I always double check - easy to not have it hooked up properly.
Remember too, the car started the first time....then it was left out in -10F temperature for an hour....started again, was in -10 temp overnight....could have drained out any power left......who knows?

explorerx4 · February 2020

It was -10(C or F?) outside, not in the garage.

stickguy · February 2020

my guess, it was set to keep somewhere below fully charged, or kicks on when it drops to a certain level (meaning there is not a constant flow. more like sump pump, it kicks on when needed) and when she started up, the battery was a little low. and the use you described, in those conditions, was the worst possible use. basically she used up a lot of juice and did not give the alternator time to recharge. If it seems fine after a nice long drive, that is probably a good sign.

it is of course also possible that the battery is starting to go.

oldfarmer50 · February 2020

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:
Mrs D flew home for a few days....can't be gone for more than 2 months at a time for some reason. She got there last night, took the GLK off the trickle charger, drove one block to a neighbors house to pick up the mail.....the temperature was -10F.......unusually cold.
She drove home....car wouldn't start for her this morning. Took Uber to a doctors appointment. Called AAA, they came, boosted her car to start it. She drove it to Mercedes dealer.
Here is the lesson to be learned:
This is what the service advisor theorizes; The trickle charger probably doesn't keep the batteries power topped up, it allows just enough of a charge to keep all the instruments and settings working. Will probably start the car, but, under extreme conditions like this....very cold, the battery won't be kept charged very much.
She is going out of town this afternoon, hoping the driving will keep the battery charged enough.
Is it a float charger or a trickle charger? The explanation frmo the MB store doesn't seem right.

If the battery is very low despite the trickle charger, then driving 1 block and back should have had the alternator putting lots of current back into charging the battery during that short time. Car should have starter better than when first taken off the trickle charger...

https://itstillruns.com/difference-float-charger-trickle-charger-7646389.html

I wonder how well the alternator charges after a cold start. I have the Sebring on a trickle charger and it always reads a green light for fully charged. A few weeks ago I started the car up and let it run up to operating temp. Maybe 15-20 minutes. Turned the car off and hooked the charger back up. It read less than full charge and took several minutes until it was back in the green.

All I can conclude is that starting a car and idling actually drains the battery. If you combine that with an old battery and cold weather I can see the no start happening.

driver100 · February 2020

explorerx4 said:
It was -10(C or F?) outside, not in the garage.

The garage will be warmer, but not by much....maybe 0 F.

driver100 · February 2020

stickguy said:
my guess, it was set to keep somewhere below fully charged, or kicks on when it drops to a certain level (meaning there is not a constant flow. more like sump pump, it kicks on when needed) and when she started up, the battery was a little low. and the use you described, in those conditions, was the worst possible use. basically she used up a lot of juice and did not give the alternator time to recharge. If it seems fine after a nice long drive, that is probably a good sign.

it is of course also possible that the battery is starting to go.

Stick, I think this scenario and oldfarmers are the best explanations. I don't see how the alternator could charge up the battery going a little ways, then it sat in the cold for an hour, had enough power to go home, sat in about 0 degrees F for 12 to 14 hours not being charged.

Battery is also coming up to 6 years....though the car is kept in a garage it does sit in cold weather for long periods of time.

roadburner · February 2020

stickguy said:

driver100 said:
Just watched Ford vs Ferrari. It is a really good movie, too bad it is 2 1/2 hours long...no movie should be more than 2 hours long.

SPOILER ALERT!I have to check to see if that ending is true...the 3 cars finishing and if he crashed in the end.
the 3 car finish is true. and I highly doubt they made up a fictitious death for Miles.

The movie car looked little like the car he actually died in- it was the infamous J Car:

roadburner · February 2020

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:
Considering the job of a trickle charger is is to keep the battery charged, it doesn't seem to be working very well.
The real job is to keep enough electricity flowing to keep all the electronics charged up....could cost $1000s to reprogram everything. Usually it maintains enough power to keep the battery going.....but, I think -10F zaps a battery that has a minimum charge. There is also a possibility, she didn't set it up properly when she went home in December...but, don't want to mention that!

$100 to "re-program" everything? That's almost certainly a scam. The BMW charger/maintainer on the ti keeps the battery fully charged, period

derekpittx · February 2020

We don't even have a page number yet. Talk about NEW!

explorerx4 · February 2020

Right now it's 7 degrees F here.
I have a case of water sitting on the floor on the north side of the garage.
It isn't frozen.

tjc78 · February 2020

Yeah but your house is probably sitting at 68 degrees inside or more with people in and out of the garage. Drivers is in hibernation mode so I’d assume the heat is on 50 or so. That’s a lot less heat leakage into the garage.

explorerx4 · February 2020

@tjc78,
I have a 3 bay garage with the north side being furthest from the house.
That wall and part of the concrete slab are not getting any heat from the house.

oldfarmer50 · February 2020

explorerx4 said:
@tjc78,
I have a 3 bay garage with the north side being furthest from the house.
That wall and part of the concrete slab are not getting any heat from the house.

Three bays? What are you, a king or something?

driver100 · February 2020

roadburner said:

driver100 said:

explorerx4 said:
Considering the job of a trickle charger is is to keep the battery charged, it doesn't seem to be working very well.
The real job is to keep enough electricity flowing to keep all the electronics charged up....could cost $1000s to reprogram everything. Usually it maintains enough power to keep the battery going.....but, I think -10F zaps a battery that has a minimum charge. There is also a possibility, she didn't set it up properly when she went home in December...but, don't want to mention that!
$100 to "re-program" everything? That's almost certainly a scam. The BMW charger/maintainer on the ti keeps the battery fully charged, period

All I know is my friend who had a Maserati went away for a few weeks, car didn't start. Dealer told him he has to keep it on trickle charger if going away for more than 2 weeks. Normally it could cost $1000s to reprogram, they did it for free.
Maybe a Mercedes costs less, I can't find how much this would cost.

driver100 · February 2020

tjc78 said:
Yeah but your house is probably sitting at 68 degrees inside or more with people in and out of the garage. Drivers is in hibernation mode so I’d assume the heat is on 50 or so. That’s a lot less heat leakage into the garage.

House temp is kept at 55 when we aren't there, garage could be about 10 degrees warmer than outside temperature. Not sure of explorers point....the trickle charger not working? Fault with a Mercedes not starting?
I'm not sure...the car wouldn't start in extreme cold when it hasn't run in 2 months......took it on the highway, seems to be charged up fine now. What is the problem?

imidazol97 · February 2020

@driver100
I'm surprised the MB store wasn't more interested in the problem with the battery. At 6 years of age,
I'd think it is time for a replacement. My Autozone guy was adamant that my 5-year old top line battery in the Cobalt would show signs of aging and might not have enough power to crank after sitting on coldest winter night outdoors. I trust him because I've known him for years. I replaced battery.

I do the same with tires: having 40% tread depth on the car I want to run on snow, drifts, ice makes a difference. A deeper tread grips better, so I replaced tires that look good but are at the 30-40% depth. Not worth having less traction. Also 90% of tire problems occur in the last 10% of the tread wear was a platitude someone said long ago.

I consider it fake economy to try to get another year out of the battery because I measured the sitting voltage, after car was off for hours, and came up with a voltage that showed 60% as the status of the battery. The voltage after the surface charge drains off should be 12.6 v and there are charts showing the voltage as a function of battery output power for lead acid batteries.

Your battery may be AGM (absorbant glass mat) which has a slightly different character like my Malibu's battery which is AGM.

A float battery charger brings a battery up to full charge and then holds at 13.8. That voltage does not boil off water (electrolysis). (I have done a lot of reading to learn since your post.)

When your car was started, the alternator surely is over 150 amperes in rating and the circuits would
have started pumping in coulombs of charge into the battery to bring an undercharged battery back to having enough oomph to start the car again.

If the system wasn't working right for recharging the battery, there should have been some kind of notice from the "computer" that there was a charging/battery problem.

explorerx4 · February 2020

@driver100,
My point is, your garage is not as cold as you think it is.
I wanted to see if it got below freezing in my garage.
Being too cheap to buy a thermometer, I took some clear spray bottles, filled them halfway with water and put one on each shelf(different heights) of some storage shelves I built in the garage.
Only rarely have I seen any evidence of ice in them.
Considering the vehicle started when taken off the charger, and has been ok since jumped, I'm going to guess operator error, but I don't think anyone will ever know for sure.

tjc78 · February 2020

I would expect most garages to not get below freezing as @explorerx4 suggests. I went away for work a long while ago when I was single and my heater died while I was gone.

It was in the 20s outside and when I returned and my house was still 50 inside.

roadburner · February 2020

driver100 said:

roadburner said:

$100 to "re-program" everything? That's almost certainly a scam. The BMW charger/maintainer on the ti keeps the battery fully charged, period
All I know is my friend who had a Maserati went away for a few weeks, car didn't start. Dealer told him he has to keep it on trickle charger if going away for more than 2 weeks. Normally it could cost $1000s to reprogram, they did it for free.
Maybe a Mercedes costs less, I can't find how much this would cost.

I still think it's a scam; I've run down the battery on both the 2er and the Clubman, and all I lost were a few settings like time and date and the trip odometer. I did have to re-initalize the power windows on the Clubman, which takes all of 30 seconds using the window switches.

snakeweasel · February 2020

andres3 said:
With just the taxpayer/Gov't losses from the GM & Chrysler 2.0 Bailouts, I could have paid a whole lot of people to watch grass grow and paint dry for a very long time.

Yep, or they could have run the federal government for one day with those losses.

roadburner · February 2020

From a Maserati forum- it sure doesn't look like $1000 worth of labor to me:

COMPONENT SELF-LEARNING IN THE EVENT OF BATTERY DISCONNECTION
After connecting the battery negative terminal, the following self-learning operations must be performed
to ensure that certain connected devices acknowledge the system again:

"EPB FAILURE" AND "PARKING BRAKE ENGAGED" WARNING LIGHTS
Each time the battery is reconnected, the “EPB FAILURE” and “PARKING BRAKE ENGAGED” warning lights flash
for about 10 seconds and then go off.
This is normal and not indicative of a failure.

MOTOR DRIVEN THROTTLE SELF-LEARNING
Turn the ignition switch to ON and wait at least 15 seconds.
After performing the self-learning cycle for the “throttle position”, you must perform the same cycle also for
the timing variators (VVT). To do this, start the engine and let it idle for about 20 seconds.

CENTRAL DOOR LOCKING
LOCK and UNLOCK the doors using the remote control.

NIT (IT node) and CLOCK
Turn the ignition switch to ON
Turn on the IT Node, reset the correct time and date since the IT node looses this information every time the battery is disconnected.

FRONT SEATS
Following any power cut-out (e.g. after using the battery master switch or if the battery has run flat), check
the seats to ensure that they are operating properly when the power supply is available.
Perform the following procedures on both seats in the event of a malfunction.
When the ignition key is at STOP and the door next to the seat concerned is closed, open the door and start
the following procedure within 5 seconds, then complete it within 10 seconds.
forward - STOP
backward - STOP
forward - STOP
backward - STOP
tilt the seatback fully forward and wait until the seat performs two complete travels
(forward and backward).
Put the backrest in the normal position.
If you need to disconnect the battery, wait at least 30 seconds from the last seat movement. If you
disconnect the battery before, you will have to run the initialisation procedure.

TGK VALVE STROKE SELF-LEARNING
Every time the battery is connected, the acquisition procedure relating to both the water valves is started.
After connecting the battery, turn the key to ON and wait at least 15 seconds before starting the engine.

The phases for a correct self-learning of the strokes are the the following:
complete valve opening (max. 6 seconds)
memorisation of the opening position of both valves (950 on the average)
complete valve closing (max. 6 seconds)
memorisation of the closing position of both valves (50 on the average)
memorisation of both valves' stroke (Stroke=Opening-Closing, 900 on the average)
stroke analysis
if even only one of the 2 strokes is below 500, both strokes are assigned a recovery value of 800 and the
procedure is repeated upon the next network wake-up or when the key is turned to ON
if both strokes are above 500, the strokes correspond to those calculated and the procedure will not be
repeated upon the next network wake-up or when the key is turned to ON

snakeweasel · February 2020

imidazol97 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Maybe also to create business for lawyers when those pump jockeys start coming down with medical problems from being exposed to gas fumes day after day unlike like the self serve customer who only pumps occasionally.
I got a solicitation email from attorneys yesterday. It was something about lithium ion round batteries.

I wonder if the batteries in the electric cars and hybrids are round...

Imagine the danger these attorneys are protecting society from. All to get each person $10 and the attorneys $millions.

Those are the small round batteries used to power watches, calculators and other such electronic items. There was a price fixing suit that was recently settled.

snakeweasel · February 2020

fintail said:
It could be a foot in the door. I've had relatively similar experience from recruiters who contact me, sometimes with positions not even close to my credentials or CV.

At least they seem to be moving the process along. It seems the hiring process here, at large firms anyway, is really slow right now. Yesterday I heard that an old co-worker who just started with a large tech/commerce group here interviewed in November, and just started 2 weeks ago.

tjc78 said:
Had an interesting job interview yesterday. I was called by the HR VP the other day about a temp position with the competitor that bought us. Recruiter from their end read off a JD and it seemed like something I could do from home so I agreed to an interview.

Just a weird thing all the way around, but it can't hurt to have as much interview experience as possible.

I have been contacted lately by a few headhunters, truth be told I am going to retire from my current employer so I am out of the interview process until I go for that easy peasy part time gig in retirement.

snakeweasel · February 2020

roadburner said:
From a Maserati forum- it sure doesn't look like $1000 worth of labor to me:

Here is my take on it, if it costs $1,000 to reprogram the car if the battery runs down then the cost of replacing the battery should also include that $1,000 reprogramming fee. How much does it cost to get a new battery for a Maserati?

driver100 · February 2020

roadburner">From a Maserati forum- it sure doesn't look like $1000 worth of labor to me:

I am finding it difficult to get an exact answer. But, this is what I found would have to be done if your battery is dead. I assume that would be similar. It i long, but, it could be a few hours of labor, plus having a new battery installed (might be costly for a Maserati);

Problems That May Occur If You Disconnect Your Car battery
What happens when the battery is disconnected? It depends on the year, make and model of your vehicle, but any of the following may happen:

Loss of learned values in the PCM's Keep Alive adaptive memory. This may cause the engine to run poorly because the air/fuel mixture is too rich or too lean for a period of time until the PCM can relearn the fuel trim adjustments. This may take up to several days and 50 to 100 miles of driving until engine operation returns to "normal."
Erasing the PCM's adaptive memory may also affect the way the transmission shifts and feels. The transmission may not feel the same until the PCM or transmission control module relearns the shift adjustments. This may take 50 to 75 miles of driving.
It resets the FMEM (Failure Mode Effects Management) module on certain late model Ford vehicles. This module provides an adaptive fail-safe strategy that substitutes estimated or fixed data for missing sensor data. Normally, this should not cause a problem UNLESS the vehicle has a bad sensor and has been substituting data from the FMEM module for a missing input.
It resets the ABS (Antilock Brake System) and SIR (Supplemental Inflation Restraint) or airbag modules. This should not be a problem UNLESS one of these modules requires a special relearn or reprogramming procedure after power has been lost. In that case, the affected module may prevent the ABS or airbag systems from working.
It resets the Climate Control module. On some vehicles, the module will not start working again until a special relearn procedure or reprogram procedure is performed with a factory scan tool. That means no A/C until the module is programmed with the correct instructions.
It resets the Body Control Module (BCM). Like the Climate Control module, the BCM may not resume normal operation until it has undergone a special relearn procedure or is reprogrammed with a factory scan tool. This can mess up the operation of power accessories such as power windows, memory seats, power sunroof, or electronic suspension settings. Worse yet, the BCM is the "gate keeper" module on many 2003 and newer vehicles that have a CAN (Controller Area Network) system. If the BCM cannot communicate properly with all of the other modules, or it does not recognize the addresses of other modules, it can cause all kinds of problems.
It may reset or disable the anti-theft system. The engine may crank but not start because the anti-theft system thinks somebody is trying to steal the vehicle. Again, it may require a special relearn procedure or reprogramming the anti-theft system with a factory scan tool to resolve the problem.
Loss of power window and/or power sunroof position settings. Unless power is maintained to the vehicle's electrical system during battery replacement, the power windows and/or sunroof may not work properly until the position values have been reset using the vehicle manufacturer's relearn procedure.
Loss of steering angle sensor settings. The steering angle sensor will have to undergo a relearn procedure following battery disconnect or replacement.
Replacing the battery on some vehicles requires entering the new battery info into the PCM with a scan tool (type of battery, battery serial number and CCA rating). This is necessary because the vehicle's charging system is programmed to gradually increase the charging rate as the battery ages. If the charging rate is not reset back to that for a new battery, the battery may overcharge and fail - or vent toxic hydrogen sulfide gas into the passenger compartment if the battery is located inside the vehicle.
It causes a loss of channel settings on an electronic radio and clock. This is more of an annoyance than a problem, and can be fixed by resetting the radio channels and the time.

SPECIFIC VEHICLE BATTERY PROBLEMS
Here is a short list of some of the problems that can occur when disconnecting or replacing the battery on the following vehicle applications (refer to the OEM service literature for specific model and year applications and cautions):

Chevy Tahoe Loss of voltage to the vehicle electrical system causes the 4WD module to go to sleep permanently. The module never wakes back up when power is restored, and the only way to restore normal 4WD operation is to replace the module with a new one (a repair that may cost you over a hundred dollars!).
Mercedes (various models) Loss of voltage to the vehicle electrical system will prevent the A/C from working. The climate control module must be reset to restore normal operation. It may also disable the Stability Control System. The ABS module has to undergo a relearn procedure for the steering angle sensor to restore normal operation.

I don't know how much that adds up to but a battery could be $200 to $300 installed possibly.

driver100 · February 2020

imidazol97
I'm surprised the MB store wasn't more interested in the problem with the battery. At 6 years of age,
I'd think it is time for a replacement.

They didn't have time to work on her car at that time. They said she could leave it with them, but, she had to drive 30 miles out of town, so they said it was worth a try to just drive it and see if it charged up....which it did.

I like your rule about tires, mine usually went at the 10% remaining level.

The GLK has about 24000 miles on it and it is in a garage every night, and when not in use, but, yes, probably a good time to replace the battery...6 years is about the limit.

driver100 · February 2020

explorerx4 said:
@driver100,
My point is, your garage is not as cold as you think it is.
I wanted to see if it got below freezing in my garage.
Being too cheap to buy a thermometer, I took some clear spray bottles, filled them halfway with water and put one on each shelf(different heights) of some storage shelves I built in the garage.
Only rarely have I seen any evidence of ice in them.
Considering the vehicle started when taken off the charger, and has been ok since jumped, I'm going to guess operator error, but I don't think anyone will ever know for sure.

Operator error is a good possibility, Mrs D hooked it up to the float charger, but, it is easy to not do it properly...you have to make sure the amber or green light is on. But, I think the extreme cold for several days, plus the start up, leaving it in below zero temperature for an hour, starting it again, leaving it in the garage in minus zero temps again.....could have drained it. But, a 6 year old battery probably didn't help in either case.

oldfarmer50 · February 2020

Just finished watching Ford vs Ferrari on cable. Wife watched it with me because she likes all English actors. When the Miles character died she was very upset. “I hate this movie” was her exact words.

Then she asked if I wanted to watch it again.

roadburner · February 2020

driver100 said:

I am finding it difficult to get an exact answer. But, this is what I found would have to be done if your battery is dead. I assume that would be similar. It i long, but, it could be a few hours of labor, plus having a new battery installed (might be costly for a Maserati);

Problems That May Occur If You Disconnect Your Car battery
What happens when the battery is disconnected? It depends on the year, make and model of your vehicle, but any of the following may happen:

Loss of learned values in the PCM's Keep Alive adaptive memory. This may cause the engine to run poorly because the air/fuel mixture is too rich or too lean for a period of time until the PCM can relearn the fuel trim adjustments. This may take up to several days and 50 to 100 miles of driving until engine operation returns to "normal."
Erasing the PCM's adaptive memory may also affect the way the transmission shifts and feels. The transmission may not feel the same until the PCM or transmission control module relearns the shift adjustments. This may take 50 to 75 miles of driving.
It resets the FMEM (Failure Mode Effects Management) module on certain late model Ford vehicles. This module provides an adaptive fail-safe strategy that substitutes estimated or fixed data for missing sensor data. Normally, this should not cause a problem UNLESS the vehicle has a bad sensor and has been substituting data from the FMEM module for a missing input.
It resets the ABS (Antilock Brake System) and SIR (Supplemental Inflation Restraint) or airbag modules. This should not be a problem UNLESS one of these modules requires a special relearn or reprogramming procedure after power has been lost. In that case, the affected module may prevent the ABS or airbag systems from working.
It resets the Climate Control module. On some vehicles, the module will not start working again until a special relearn procedure or reprogram procedure is performed with a factory scan tool. That means no A/C until the module is programmed with the correct instructions.
It resets the Body Control Module (BCM). Like the Climate Control module, the BCM may not resume normal operation until it has undergone a special relearn procedure or is reprogrammed with a factory scan tool. This can mess up the operation of power accessories such as power windows, memory seats, power sunroof, or electronic suspension settings. Worse yet, the BCM is the "gate keeper" module on many 2003 and newer vehicles that have a CAN (Controller Area Network) system. If the BCM cannot communicate properly with all of the other modules, or it does not recognize the addresses of other modules, it can cause all kinds of problems.
It may reset or disable the anti-theft system. The engine may crank but not start because the anti-theft system thinks somebody is trying to steal the vehicle. Again, it may require a special relearn procedure or reprogramming the anti-theft system with a factory scan tool to resolve the problem.
Loss of power window and/or power sunroof position settings. Unless power is maintained to the vehicle's electrical system during battery replacement, the power windows and/or sunroof may not work properly until the position values have been reset using the vehicle manufacturer's relearn procedure.
Loss of steering angle sensor settings. The steering angle sensor will have to undergo a relearn procedure following battery disconnect or replacement.
Replacing the battery on some vehicles requires entering the new battery info into the PCM with a scan tool (type of battery, battery serial number and CCA rating). This is necessary because the vehicle's charging system is programmed to gradually increase the charging rate as the battery ages. If the charging rate is not reset back to that for a new battery, the battery may overcharge and fail - or vent toxic hydrogen sulfide gas into the passenger compartment if the battery is located inside the vehicle.
It causes a loss of channel settings on an electronic radio and clock. This is more of an annoyance than a problem, and can be fixed by resetting the radio channels and the time.

SPECIFIC VEHICLE BATTERY PROBLEMS
Here is a short list of some of the problems that can occur when disconnecting or replacing the battery on the following vehicle applications (refer to the OEM service literature for specific model and year applications and cautions):

Chevy Tahoe Loss of voltage to the vehicle electrical system causes the 4WD module to go to sleep permanently. The module never wakes back up when power is restored, and the only way to restore normal 4WD operation is to replace the module with a new one (a repair that may cost you over a hundred dollars!).
Mercedes (various models) Loss of voltage to the vehicle electrical system will prevent the A/C from working. The climate control module must be reset to restore normal operation. It may also disable the Stability Control System. The ABS module has to undergo a relearn procedure for the steering angle sensor to restore normal operation.

I don't know how much that adds up to but a battery could be $200 to $300 installed possibly.

I think that a more accurate title for that article would be:

"How To Scare Rubes Into Taking Their Car to a 'Professional Technician' Every Time it Hiccups So That They Can Be Thoroughly Screwed"

explorerx4 · February 2020

Here's a documentary on the 1966 Lemans(A Ford film).
Real footage, about 27 minutes long.
The clip of the kids in the 'Ferrari' gokarts cracked me up.
It seems to be as much about the people attending the event as it is about the race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rrVOVuwPV0

driver100 · February 2020

oldfarmer50 said:
Just finished watching Ford vs Ferrari on cable. Wife watched it with me because she likes all English actors. When the Miles character died she was very upset. “I hate this movie” was her exact words.

Then she asked if I wanted to watch it again.

It is a really good movie and it is too bad Miles died. I liked some of the 50s and 60s cars in the background....a really nice 63 Chevy in one scene.

driver100 · February 2020

roadburner said:

driver100 said:

I am finding it difficult to get an exact answer. But, this is what I found would have to be done if your battery is dead. I assume that would be similar. It i long, but, it could be a few hours of labor, plus having a new battery installed (might be costly for a Maserati);

Problems That May Occur If You Disconnect Your Car battery
What happens when the battery is disconnected? It depends on the year, make and model of your vehicle, but any of the following may happen:

Loss of learned values in the PCM's Keep Alive adaptive memory. This may cause the engine to run poorly because the air/fuel mixture is too rich or too lean for a period of time until the PCM can relearn the fuel trim adjustments. This may take up to several days and 50 to 100 miles of driving until engine operation returns to "normal."
Erasing the PCM's adaptive memory may also affect the way the transmission shifts and feels. The transmission may not feel the same until the PCM or transmission control module relearns the shift adjustments. This may take 50 to 75 miles of driving.
It resets the FMEM (Failure Mode Effects Management) module on certain late model Ford vehicles. This module provides an adaptive fail-safe strategy that substitutes estimated or fixed data for missing sensor data. Normally, this should not cause a problem UNLESS the vehicle has a bad sensor and has been substituting data from the FMEM module for a missing input.
It resets the ABS (Antilock Brake System) and SIR (Supplemental Inflation Restraint) or airbag modules. This should not be a problem UNLESS one of these modules requires a special relearn or reprogramming procedure after power has been lost. In that case, the affected module may prevent the ABS or airbag systems from working.
It resets the Climate Control module. On some vehicles, the module will not start working again until a special relearn procedure or reprogram procedure is performed with a factory scan tool. That means no A/C until the module is programmed with the correct instructions.
It resets the Body Control Module (BCM). Like the Climate Control module, the BCM may not resume normal operation until it has undergone a special relearn procedure or is reprogrammed with a factory scan tool. This can mess up the operation of power accessories such as power windows, memory seats, power sunroof, or electronic suspension settings. Worse yet, the BCM is the "gate keeper" module on many 2003 and newer vehicles that have a CAN (Controller Area Network) system. If the BCM cannot communicate properly with all of the other modules, or it does not recognize the addresses of other modules, it can cause all kinds of problems.
It may reset or disable the anti-theft system. The engine may crank but not start because the anti-theft system thinks somebody is trying to steal the vehicle. Again, it may require a special relearn procedure or reprogramming the anti-theft system with a factory scan tool to resolve the problem.
Loss of power window and/or power sunroof position settings. Unless power is maintained to the vehicle's electrical system during battery replacement, the power windows and/or sunroof may not work properly until the position values have been reset using the vehicle manufacturer's relearn procedure.
Loss of steering angle sensor settings. The steering angle sensor will have to undergo a relearn procedure following battery disconnect or replacement.
Replacing the battery on some vehicles requires entering the new battery info into the PCM with a scan tool (type of battery, battery serial number and CCA rating). This is necessary because the vehicle's charging system is programmed to gradually increase the charging rate as the battery ages. If the charging rate is not reset back to that for a new battery, the battery may overcharge and fail - or vent toxic hydrogen sulfide gas into the passenger compartment if the battery is located inside the vehicle.
It causes a loss of channel settings on an electronic radio and clock. This is more of an annoyance than a problem, and can be fixed by resetting the radio channels and the time.

SPECIFIC VEHICLE BATTERY PROBLEMS
Here is a short list of some of the problems that can occur when disconnecting or replacing the battery on the following vehicle applications (refer to the OEM service literature for specific model and year applications and cautions):

Chevy Tahoe Loss of voltage to the vehicle electrical system causes the 4WD module to go to sleep permanently. The module never wakes back up when power is restored, and the only way to restore normal 4WD operation is to replace the module with a new one (a repair that may cost you over a hundred dollars!).
Mercedes (various models) Loss of voltage to the vehicle electrical system will prevent the A/C from working. The climate control module must be reset to restore normal operation. It may also disable the Stability Control System. The ABS module has to undergo a relearn procedure for the steering angle sensor to restore normal operation.

I don't know how much that adds up to but a battery could be $200 to $300 installed possibly.
I think that a more accurate title for that article would be:

"How To Scare Rubes Into Taking Their Car to a 'Professional Technician' Every Time it Hiccups So That They Can Be Thoroughly Screwed"

This might be worse case scenario........but, I would try not to let the battery go dead personally. Even if a quarter of those things happened it could take awhile to get the car back to where it was.....not taking chances, have to see about a new battery.

roadburner · February 2020

I replace my battery when it fails a load test OR if it’s over 6-7 years old. That said, I’m not about to surrender to the absurd scare tactics of some huckster- and then give him the opportunity to give me, as a Brit friend puts it, a “jolly good rogering.”

explorerx4 · February 2020

Here's another video, this one most focused on the 1967 Lemans race.
I have a picture I took of the winning Mark IV back in the late 80's.
It was stationed at the front of the Henry Ford Museum as the featured vehicle.
What was really great is that it was still in 'after race' condition, not cleaned up, as it is in the studio portions of the video.
Something happened after the race that endures until today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl3HRvv1qWo

houdini1 · February 2020

And here I just thought that I might lose my radio settings ! When the shop replaces your battery how do they keep all this from happening? I assume they have to disconnect the old battery before replacing it with a new one.

jmonroe · February 2020

houdini1 said:
And here I just thought that I might lose my radio settings ! When the shop replaces your battery how do they keep all this from happening? I assume they have to disconnect the old battery before replacing it with a new one.

I'm pretty sure they use a power source that they connect to a cigarette lighter outlet. That source doesn't need much current capacity. All that is needed is enough so that all memory functions aren't lost. However, the person doing the battery swap out just has to be careful when the battery cables are disconnected because they will be hot from the cigarette lighter source. The cables cannot touch each other. Also, the positive cable cannot touch the frame of the car nor should the negative cable touch any positive terminal point (bolt, terminal block, screw, etc.). It's actually child's play when you're just a little careful. It ain't nothing like working 440 VAC when it's still hot.

jmonroe

driver100 · February 2020

"jmonroe"However, the person doing the battery swap out just has to be careful when the battery cables are disconnected because they will be hot from the cigarette lighter source. The cables cannot touch each other. Also, the positive cable cannot touch the frame of the car nor should the negative cable touch any positive terminal point (bolt, terminal block, screw, etc.). It's actually child's play when you're just a little careful. It ain't nothing like working 440 VAC when it's still hot.
jmonroe

My biggest fear in life was that I would be out of work (that happened a lot) and the only job I could find would be being a waiter. I would be a disaster, getting orders wrong, spilling food on people, not really caring if their steak wasn't done to their exact specifications.

But, JM, you just convinced me my biggest fear for a job would be having to change a car battery. I just know I would let the wrong dangling wire hit something that will cause the car to blow up!

houdini1 · February 2020

jmonroe said:

houdini1 said:
And here I just thought that I might lose my radio settings ! When the shop replaces your battery how do they keep all this from happening? I assume they have to disconnect the old battery before replacing it with a new one.
I'm pretty sure they use a power source that they connect to a cigarette lighter outlet. That source doesn't need much current capacity. All that is needed is enough so that all memory functions aren't lost. However, the person doing the battery swap out just has to be careful when the battery cables are disconnected because they will be hot from the cigarette lighter source. The cables cannot touch each other. Also, the positive cable cannot touch the frame of the car nor should the negative cable touch any positive terminal point (bolt, terminal block, screw, etc.). It's actually child's play when you're just a little careful. It ain't nothing like working 440 VAC when it's still hot.

jmonroe

They ought to build cars like a computer so they would just take a few minutes to re-boot when something interrupted the power. Of course then they couldn't charge you $1,000. to change the battery.

driver100 · February 2020

houdini1 said:
And here I just thought that I might lose my radio settings ! When the shop replaces your battery how do they keep all this from happening? I assume they have to disconnect the old battery before replacing it with a new one.

That is a good question, which JMonroe basically answered. But, I can't find out - and I have looked around, what happens if your battery goes dead and you have to get all your settings back? Maybe it can't lose 100% of it's power, but, I think though, for example if it cracked it could. I'd like to know what is involved....like I said, Maserati said it could cost a few $1000s. In the MB manual it says don't leave your car for more than 6 weeks without running it or you should use a trickle charger.

driver100 · February 2020

roadburner said:
I replace my battery when it fails a load test OR if it’s over 6-7 years old. That said, I’m not about to surrender to the absurd scare tactics of some huckster- and then give him the opportunity to give me, as a Brit friend puts it, a “jolly good rogering.”

Roadburner, most average car owners aren't going to get their battery tested a few times a year. As a general rule they say average consumers should get a new battery every 5 or 6 years. For us regular people it is easier to go by the guidelines....when you average it out for us lay people, it isn't worth trying to eke out an extra year or possibly 2 from an old battery.
Same with tires, depending on where you live, it sounds like 6 years is getting near the max before the rubber starts to deteriorate.
This wouldn't make sense for you as you are knowledgeable about testing your car and knowing what has to be done.....but, you represent a very small percentage of the driving population.

houdini1 · February 2020

driver100 said:

houdini1 said:
And here I just thought that I might lose my radio settings ! When the shop replaces your battery how do they keep all this from happening? I assume they have to disconnect the old battery before replacing it with a new one.
That is a good question, which JMonroe basically answered. But, I can't find out - and I have looked around, what happens if your battery goes dead and you have to get all your settings back? Maybe it can't lose 100% of it's power, but, I think though, for example if it cracked it could. I'd like to know what is involved....like I said, Maserati said it could cost a few $1000s. In the MB manual it says don't leave your car for more than 6 weeks without running it or you should use a trickle charger.

How expensive could it be to have a small back up battery for critical items, like computers and smart phones have.

driver100 · February 2020

houdini1 said:

driver100 said:

houdini1 said:
And here I just thought that I might lose my radio settings ! When the shop replaces your battery how do they keep all this from happening? I assume they have to disconnect the old battery before replacing it with a new one.
That is a good question, which JMonroe basically answered. But, I can't find out - and I have looked around, what happens if your battery goes dead and you have to get all your settings back? Maybe it can't lose 100% of it's power, but, I think though, for example if it cracked it could. I'd like to know what is involved....like I said, Maserati said it could cost a few $1000s. In the MB manual it says don't leave your car for more than 6 weeks without running it or you should use a trickle charger.
How expensive could it be to have a small back up battery for critical items, like computers and smart phones have.

Exactly....I think RB said BMWs have something that would do that. Maybe we should sell the idea to a car company.
I have a friend who fixes his cars and keeps them running for a long time...usually around 200,000 miles.
This was his quote about the GLK not starting, and about it being OK after a 30 mile run on the highway;

Chargers perform the best by trickle charging, so, methinks your battery needs to be replaced! There may still be a bit of life in the battery, but on really cold days it loses 2/3rds of its power! A good charger will get the battery up quicker than the alternator/generator of the car.....so.....driving the car helps but an overnight charge is far superior!

roadburner · February 2020

driver100 said:

Roadburner, most average car owners aren't going to get their battery tested a few times a year. As a general rule they say average consumers should get a new battery every 5 or 6 years. For us regular people it is easier to go by the guidelines....when you average it out for us lay people, it isn't worth trying to eke out an extra year or possibly 2 from an old battery.
Same with tires, depending on where you live, it sounds like 6 years is getting near the max before the rubber starts to deteriorate.
This wouldn't make sense for you as you are knowledgeable about testing your car and knowing what has to be done.....but, you represent a very small percentage of the driving population.

I get my batteries load tested at most once per year at AutoZone for free- it takes maybe all of 3-5 minutes.
My point is that I think that all that palaver about cars requiring upwards of $1,000 worth of work to allegedly "reprogram" the car is nothing but B.S.that is calculated to cause people to go go a tech, hand over their credit card, drop their pants, and grab their ankles.

cdnpinhead · February 2020

P. T. Barnum said it best, closely followed by H. L. Mencken.

Look it up, if you don't know already.

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