Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

Michaell · February 2020

benjaminh said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:
BTW, I looked into incentives on Stinger. Up to 9.5 grand, but only if you take the specific lease through a captive program (24 month for the highest rebate) plus 1.5K conquest and whatever else may come, which can still be a great deal, considering the residual will likely be inflated vs. real value. That's insane. I think they overproduced big time, especially those "GT+" models.
$12,200 lease cash for 24 months on GT2 AWD.

6 trim levels have lease cash at or above $10K for 24 month terms.

Many, many people are "leasing", then immediately buying out the lease.
That's a jaw-dropping lease incentive. Amazing deal.

And, that's on top of any discount you negotiate off the MSRP.

However, the 24/10 residual on the aforementioned GT2 AWD is only 51%, and the MF is .00191, or 4.58%.

The GT2 stickers for north of $50K, IIRC.

andres3 · February 2020

Add $350 to any lease on a Kia if you are not buying it out due to the Key FOB scam. Also, by the way, the $400 disposition fee isn't waived if you buy another Kia (or lease). It is ONLY waived if you buy or lease through Kia Finance, and Kia Finance only.

andres3 · February 2020

benjaminh said:

roadburner said:
I'm still giving a hard look to the Stinger GTS. Normally you would have to beat me with a stick to consider an AWD car, but the GTS D-AWD system allows the driver to select the default F/R torque split all the way up to sending 100% of the power to the rear axle, which is also fitted with a mechanical LSD- a feature rarely found in AWD cars. My only real gripe is that the GTS isn't any faster than my 2er. I was hoping to get something legitimately quicker- running the quarter in the mid to low twelves.
Am I remembering correctly that the KIA Stinger is build on the same basic platform as the Genesis G70?

And did I also hear that the Stinger has lease incentives of up to $10k?

Sounds like an amazing deal on an impressive car....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38nDEvihRUk

Did you hear about the Key FOB scam the dealership and Kia Finance are in cahoots on? Basically, the way it works is they "doctor" paperwork behind closed doors to show 1 Key FOB returned, even if you returned two. Then they say the reason you weren't given a return receipt in writing on the drop off date is that the lease manager wasnt' there to do it.

tjc78 · February 2020

That's a jaw-dropping lease incentive. Amazing deal.

Maybe not... what's the MF and residual?

Edit... just saw that was answered. Like I thought that MF hurts.

Michaell · February 2020

andres3 said:
Also, by the way, the $400 disposition fee isn't waived if you buy another Kia (or lease). It is ONLY waived if you buy or lease through Kia Finance, and Kia Finance only.

I'm pretty sure that's the case with any captive bank.

Not a reason to not lease from the same brand, again.

dino001 · February 2020

andres3 said:

Did you hear about the Key FOB scam the dealership and Kia Finance are in cahoots on? Basically, the way it works is they "doctor" paperwork behind closed doors to show 1 Key FOB returned, even if you returned two. Then they say the reason you weren't given a return receipt in writing on the drop off date is that the lease manager wasnt' there to do it.

Any evidence it's a widespread problem?

dino001 · February 2020

Michaell said:

benjaminh said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:
BTW, I looked into incentives on Stinger. Up to 9.5 grand, but only if you take the specific lease through a captive program (24 month for the highest rebate) plus 1.5K conquest and whatever else may come, which can still be a great deal, considering the residual will likely be inflated vs. real value. That's insane. I think they overproduced big time, especially those "GT+" models.
$12,200 lease cash for 24 months on GT2 AWD.

6 trim levels have lease cash at or above $10K for 24 month terms.

Many, many people are "leasing", then immediately buying out the lease.
That's a jaw-dropping lease incentive. Amazing deal.
And, that's on top of any discount you negotiate off the MSRP.

However, the 24/10 residual on the aforementioned GT2 AWD is only 51%, and the MF is .00191, or 4.58%.

The GT2 stickers for north of $50K, IIRC.

So, if my rough math is right, say $50K MSRP, 10K incentive, additional $2K off the sticker, we get $25K residual, i.e. $542 capital payment +$120 financial payment +whatever fees and taxes = $640+fees/taxes/month with zero down, say $700-720 per month on a short term 24-month lease. Similarly priced (MSRP) BMW 3-series (essentially entry level 330) even at higher residual (say 61%,, and lower MF, say 0.00142), if gotten with say $4K off the sticker would probably be slightly more. However, load that bimmer up to get similar equipment and performance and you're adding at least couple of hundred bucks.

stickguy · February 2020

But in month 2 you buy it out for residual plus principal and much different equation.

benjaminh · February 2020

I think the big Stinger incentives are for 2019 models, but for the Acura TLX it's for the 2020s. And so on the other hand you might consider a 2020 TLX V-6 with super-handling AWD for c. $400 a month with $2500 down, although for that you need to currently have either an Acura or another luxury brand on their list.

https://www.acura.com/tools/current-luxury-car-suv-offers-leasing

FEATURED STANDARD LEASE
Expires 03/02/20
2020 TLX 9 Speed Automatic SH-AWD Featured Special Loyalty/Conquest Lease. For well-qualified lessees who currently own a 2010 or newer Acura, Audi, BMW, Buick, Cadillac, Genesis, Honda, Infiniti, Lexus, Lincoln, Mercedes Benz or Volvo vehicle.
$389 Per month for 36 months.
$2,499 Total due at signing

dino001 · February 2020

stickguy said:
But in month 2 you buy it out for residual plus principal and much different equation.

I like that. Didn't think of it, but it sounds like an interesting plan. You'll still suffer lousy depreciation, but at least it's mitigated by the huge upfront discount and the buyout can save you some finance charges, if you use cash. If you don't have cash, then it may be better to let the lease run its course unless you can get a really low interest loan, like 2%. What are top tier open market rates for 36-48 month loans now?

roadburner · February 2020

Michaell said:

$12,200 lease cash for 24 months on GT2 AWD.

6 trim levels have lease cash at or above $10K for 24 month terms.

Many, many people are "leasing", then immediately buying out the lease.

That's what I'm considering doing with the 2019 GTS I found It's just crazy.

andres3 · February 2020

dino001 said:

andres3 said:

Did you hear about the Key FOB scam the dealership and Kia Finance are in cahoots on? Basically, the way it works is they "doctor" paperwork behind closed doors to show 1 Key FOB returned, even if you returned two. Then they say the reason you weren't given a return receipt in writing on the drop off date is that the lease manager wasnt' there to do it.
Any evidence it's a widespread problem?

Evidence #1: It happened to me, and I don't feel particularly lucky or unlucky, I generally assume what happens to me is what happens in general. I'm usually right.

Evidence #2: The whole Finance lease return rules, regulations, and contract (as written by Kia Finance) is fatally flawed, incompetently flawed, and rigged to benefit them, with no recourse for the customer to challenge inaccuracies short of a CSI tracking system.

Evidence #3: Dealership said they didn't lose a Key FOB in 7 years. Makes it odd they'd burn a customer over $350 if it only happens once every 7 years, seems like a small price to pay that wouldn't dent their bottom line. What's more likely? That it happens weekly, and $350/week would put a dent in their bottom line, and therefore that's why they don't want to pay it.

Evidence #4: Kia Finance's whole system of billing and collecting on faulty charges reeks odor. They've done this before. They seem confident they are correct.

Bottom line is I find their "evidence" no more credible than mine, and I knows whos is right and correct.

tjc78 · February 2020

I did the math on this example:

https://www.kiaofcherryhill.com/search/new-kia-stinger-cherry-hill-nj/?s:pr=0&cy=08002&md=7494&mk=30&tp=new

54K MSRP. I'm thinking you get this below invoice (50,726) so let's say selling price is $49500.

The payment here in NJ with tax and only first payment OOP is $670. Acq fee is $595, 450 doc, 400 Reg

I like the Stinger a lot, but for nearly $700 I'd be forced to look at other options if I was set on leasing.

tjc78 · February 2020

@andres3

benjaminh · February 2020

Almost all entry level luxury cars are turbos these days, but this recent video by "Engineering Explained" tries to make the case for the advantages of naturally aspirated engines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2qExaEwn0g

dino001 · February 2020

Evidence of one. You should run for a state attorney, you’ll fit right in.

breld · February 2020

roadburner said:

Michaell said:

$12,200 lease cash for 24 months on GT2 AWD.

6 trim levels have lease cash at or above $10K for 24 month terms.

Many, many people are "leasing", then immediately buying out the lease.
That's what I'm considering doing with the 2019 GTS I found It's just crazy.

It makes sense and is easy enough to do.

I did it on a Passat a while back. And a friend of my wife's wanted a Kona last year - the incentives were significant but specific to a lease, so I helped her get the lease done and then she bought it out within a month or two.

Lease incentives on my V90 XC were similar to the Stinger deal, to the point I got nearly $20k off MSRP. As with the Kia, the money factor equates to an interest rate around 5%, so I've considered buying out the lease to reduce the interest expense. I may still do it, but with average rates around 3.5%, it doesn't actually save a lot of money, and I lose the risk reduction with being under a lease.

andres3 · February 2020

dino001 said:
Evidence of one. You should run for a state attorney, you’ll fit right in.

Ha! Funny, my calculation is the following:

I think they might win the argument in Court that my beef is with the Dealership, not with Kia Finance (though nothing is guaranteed).

My calculation is I'm not suing anyone for less than 4 figures, and $350 falls below my threshold to take the Dealership to small claims court.

My calculation is that Kia Finance nor their collectors will sue me for less than 4 figures either, and $350 will fall below their threshold.

We will just all agree to hate each other, and there will be no suing. If there is suing, I'll sue. Let the games begin, but I'll let them throw the first punch.

stickguy · February 2020

they don't have to sue. They can just turn it over to their collection agency, who's primary mission is life is to make your life miserable over chump change.

kyfdx · February 2020

stickguy said:
they don't have to sue. They can just turn it over to their collection agency, who's primary mission is life is to make your life miserable over chump change.

And, affect your credit rating

andres3 · February 2020

kyfdx said:

stickguy said:
they don't have to sue. They can just turn it over to their collection agency, who's primary mission is life is to make your life miserable over chump change.
And, affect your credit rating

I suppose the credit score keepers are in the pocket of the banks...... but at least there, there is a system in place to dispute inaccuracies. You can probably thank the Democrats for this Consumer protection. One of the good things they have done, as was HARP 2.0. (though CASH4CLUNKERS and bailouts were an abomination).

andres3 · February 2020

stickguy said:
they don't have to sue. They can just turn it over to their collection agency, who's primary mission is life is to make your life miserable over chump change.

I'm beginning to see that and experience it first hand. Though I think I can stop it by sending a "cease and desist" letter. We'll see.

benjaminh · April 2020

Entry-level luxury sales in the US for the first three months of 2020....

Smaller sedans:
ILX 2,741
A3 2,237
2series 1,772
Regal 1,202
CT4 41

Midsize sedans
3series 10,613
ES 9,247
Q50 5,757
TLX 5,484
A4 3,949
MKZ 3,482
CT5 3,000
IS 2,712
S60 2,635
G70 2,074
Giulia 1,759

Michaell · April 2020

benjaminh said:
Entry-level luxury sales in the US for the first three months of 2020....

Smaller sedans:
ILX 2,741
A3 2,237
2series 1,772
Regal 1,202
CT4 41

Midsize sedans
3series 10,613
ES 9,247
Q50 5,757
TLX 5,484
A4 3,949
MKZ 3,482
CT5 3,000
IS 2,712
S60 2,635
G70 2,074
Giulia 1,759

Where's the Tesla Model 3?

benjaminh · April 2020

Michaell said:

Where's the Tesla Model 3?

In its own category. I think it sells as much as almost all of these combined.

laurasdada · April 2020

benjaminh said:
Entry-level luxury sales in the US for the first three months of 2020....

Smaller sedans:
ILX 2,741
A3 2,237
2series 1,772
Regal 1,202
CT4 41

Midsize sedans
3series 10,613
ES 9,247
Q50 5,757
TLX 5,484
A4 3,949
MKZ 3,482
CT5 3,000
IS 2,712
S60 2,635
G70 2,074
Giulia 1,759

Where are the Jaguar....oh, never mind...

benjaminh · July 2020

The entry-level luxury cars I might be interested in are the Audi A3 and A4, BMW 3-series, Mercedes A-class, the new Acura TLX and new ILX replacement, and the Volvo S60.

stickguy · July 2020

I would take any of those. Really interested in seeing the new baby Acura.

benjaminh · July 2020

There's speculation that the ILX name might be retired. The new car might possibly bring back the RSX name.

stickguy · July 2020

if they won't bring back Integra, the RSX is a good 2nd choice. maybe they will even have a hatch on it. that would be nice!

benjaminh · July 2020

Yes, I'd like to see Acura bring back a hatchback. But as you've also speculated, there's room in the Acura lineup for an X1-size of small suv. My guess is that we'll get something like that in a couple of years, but from the leaks we've gotten so far it doesn't look like it's happening during calendar year 2021.

benjaminh · May 2021

@explorerx4 : How do you like your Lincoln MKZ? As you may have seen, a friend of mine just got a 2018 MKZ and so far he loves it.

carnaught · May 2021

benjaminh said:
@explorerx4 : How do you like your Lincoln MKZ? As you may have seen, a friend of mine just got a 2018 MKZ and so far he loves it.

It’s a nice car. They should have updated instead of eliminating it.

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

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