Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Oh yeah, saw a couple of first gen Geo Metro - a 3 door and 5 door.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW8nBN1thTE
I know someone who ordered one and waited seven months for it.
They were a good bit larger than the only other domestic FWD at the time, the Omni/Horizon.
I remember when an internal QC report on one pulled from the line at Tarrytown scored 38 out of 150, and somebody there leaked it to the press, LOL.
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
We own three vehicles with keys, and one without. I wish the one, had them.
On paper, the Citation really did seem like it could be a serious contender. Interesting, how in that opening montage, they were trying to say it was a car that could be all things to all people...inexpensive compact, fuel-miser, comfy 5-seater, cargo hauler, etc.
When you think about it though, it pretty much cut the pattern for the boilerplate American-market intermediate for nearly 40 years. The standard template has been FWD, relatively compact dimensions, seating for 5 (occasional 6), standard 4-cyl engine and, up until recently, optional V6.
Heck, considering how common turbo engines are in mainstream cars these days, maybe Mopar was a bit of ahead of their time when they started putting them in as upgrade engines, before they had widespread use of the Mitsubishi 3.0, and then their own 3.3/3.8 V6es.
I used to have 70s hair. Now that's a serious flashback.
Timing is everything.Studebaker advertised a FWD car(riage) with opera windows and landau top about a 100 years before the Ford LTD Landau. About the same horsepower too.
Today I just got a C&D link to The Greatest Cars of All Time: The Fifties
Not that I expect click bait articles to match my own concept of greatness but their list was only 2 cars and I kept looking for the rest of it. I can't wait for The Eighties installment. If everything built in the 50s amounts to only 2 picks for greatness then how many GOAT picks will the 80s yield?
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
I do like the general styling and size, but my Cruze is significantly quieter in the road noise department.
For the 50s "greatest" list, no knocks on either of those choices, but I'd rank the W198 300SL, with its tubular frame and direct injection, up there with anything.
It had the extra taillight reflectors inboard of the taillights, which for some reason makes me think it's a later one--'64 maybe?
Been a looonnngggg time since I've seen one of those on the streets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd_yWfm7Lww
Definitely never seen one of those Olds with a 4cyl and 5 speed.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I thought it was odd that when first introduced, the GM-10's were only coupes. That left only the old Celebrity/6000/Ciera/Century for mid-size sedans at the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2ncEJBeDFM
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I look at them as kind of a luxury Jeep Wrangler (4x4 convertible SUV)
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!
MODERATOR
2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4
But then 1988 came around, and the Grand Prix seemed to focus mostly on performance. The Regal tried to be more of a "traditional" American coupe, and probably retained the "personal luxury" formula the best. The Cutlass Supreme seemed to be going for a more sophisticated, cutting edge crowd, trying to be an import fighters. But, the Grand Prix seemed to become a bit of a caricature of itself in short time, being more "boy racer" and "Ribs & Wings"-performance, than the type of performance Pontiac used to be known for. The Regal just seemed to turn into an old people's car. As for the Cutlass Supreme, well it turned out that "your Father's Oldsmobile" wasn't such a bad car after all and well, there aren't too many imports that you try to fight off with a domestic midsized coupe.
The GM10s were modestly successful their first year out, but then it seemed sales dropped fast. For example, here's how the Regal coupe did:
1988: ~130,000
1989: ~89,000
1990: ~55,000
1991: ~24,000 (the new 4-door that year sold around 119,000. There was also a Gran Sport, offered as a 2 or 4 door. It sold 12,965 units, but my book doesn't break out sedan/coupe production for it)
1992: ~24,000 (including Gran Sport, which was broken out this year)
1993: ~14,000
1994: ~18,000
1995: No coupe/sedan breakout, but 100,169 total were sold.
1996: 5,991 coupes, 107,056 sedans.
When the 4-door models came out, they seemed to have sort of a rushed-together look about them. And worse, they made me think a bit of the old days, where the manufacturers often designed the coupe first and foremost, and then threw the sedan together as a bit of an afterthought, with the attitude that people bought coupes because they wanted to; they bought sedans because they had to. The formula might have worked in the old days, when the coupe was king, but it was outdated thinking by the 90's.
GM's market timing used to be impeccable. And even if they weren't first to a certain segment (El Camino type vehicles, pony cars, personal luxury coupes, intermediate cars, etc), it usually wasn't long before they dominated said segment.
But, once the 80's came around, it seemed like they were starting to lose their magic. Supposedly, the J- (Cavalier) and A- (Celebrity) didn't sell nearly as well initially as they had hoped for, although to be fair, 1982 was a horrible year for the economy in general. When the FWD C-bodies came out for 1985, the fuel was flowing cheap and easy again, and big car sales were starting to return. The Cadillac did fairly well, but the Electra/Ninety-Eight only had a couple of good years, then fell off fast. Similarly, when the H-body (LeSabre/88) came out for 1986, it was a bit underwhelming. The LeSabre actually sold fairly well, but the 88 took a pretty big hit compared to the 1985 B-body Delta. Oh, and let's not forget the '85 Eldorado/Toronado/Riviera/Seville.
The N-body, especially in Grand Am guise, was a bright spot. These cars were initially intended to replace the Cutlass Supreme/Regal/et al, as a second-wave downsize of the personal luxury coupes. But, by the time they hit the market, those RWD cars were still selling pretty well. So the N-body was re-positioned as sort of an import fighter, like a cut-rate BMW 3-series. Naturally, it wasn't, but, it still sold fairly well for awhile.
Both were very expensive lines of cars. Add to that the very anemic 1.8 liter used in the J cars, and the '83 revisions, which included lowering of prices IIRC, were a good thing.
Another reason or two why I consider '83 at GM to be better than '81 and '82.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Cavalier Cadet 112 4-cyl: $6433
Cavalier sedan: 112 4cyl: $7137
Cavalier CL 112 4cyl: $8137
Celebrity 151 4-cyl: $8463
Celebrity 173 V6: $8568
Malibu 229 V6: $ 8137
Malibu 267 V8: $8207
Impala 229 V6: $7918
Impala 267 V8: $7988
Caprice Classic 229 V6: $8367
Caprice Classic 267 V8: $8437
So basically, a 4-cyl Celebrity MSRP'ed for slightly more than a V8 Caprice! Not only that, but the Caprice had a pretty nice interior. The Celebrity, at that point, most likely just had an Impala-level interior. You had to buy a package like "CS" or "CL" or something like that, if you wanted a nice interior.
And I'm wondering, would the Cavalier CL, even at that price point, still had a manual transmission standard? The Impala/Caprice had a standard automatic since what? 1974? And it was 1982 that the Malibu and all the other G-bodies got the automatic standard.
No wonder these cars were initially such poor sellers! I remember C&D or one of those similar magazines testing a 305 Caprice, either '82 or '83. They mentioned that despite the recession and expensive gasoline, they were pretty much going out the door for close to sticker price, while the Celebrity needed deep discounts to move.
To be fair though, GM did reduce production of the Caprice/Impala. While they had been good for 500-600K or more annually in '77-79, they were probably cut to around 250K in 1982. So while overall demand for something that big did drop, the reduced production meant that people who were in the market for something like this didn't exactly have a glut of them to choose from.
So a 35 year old Cavalier. The guy driving it looked to be about 75 or so, and somehow he had the look of an original owner. This probably coupon-clipping citizen has possibly saved a small fortune by hanging onto this car. I had no idea a Cavalier could last that long. But garaged with good maintenance I guess it's possible. Wonder if it has the original engine. I still remember the ad campaign from 1981: "The complete Chevrolet—Cavalier!" Couldn't find that ad, but below is a 5-minute dealer training film.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGYMgggGoAE
To replace it, his parents gave him their Toyota hatchback. I'm thinking it was a Corolla, even though I always picture them as a 4-door sedan, which was probably much more popular. At least I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Tercel. It was around a 1986-87. It died around the 70,000 mile mark, with sludge issues, before that word became fashionable at Toyota. But, his family really wasn't the type to take good care of their cars.
After college graduation, I didn't see him for awhile, but then he started working at the same facility as me, and we met up. He had just gotten a well-paying engineering job, and treated himself to a brand new Trans Am, red with silver trim. I think it was a 1995. I lost contact with him a couple years after that, though, so I don't know how long he had it.
Now, I've known a couple of people with Cavalier Z24s, that had the 2.8 V6, and they succumbed to head gasket issues. One was an '87, but my friend's father was a mechanic, and was able to fix it for him. But, a year or so after that, he got into a fight with his father, joined the Navy, and I think the old man took the car back and sold it. The other Cavalier was an '89 Z24 coupe, a pretty sharp looking car, actually. Around 1997, its head gasket blew, and he ended up trading it for a new Civic. He was in medical school at the time, so he had bigger financial priorities than a fancy car. Lost contact with him, as well, but I imagine by now, he's probably driving something pretty exotic. I did stalk him on Whitepages.com and (presuming it's the same guy, of course), he's now living in a big house in a gated community in a ritzy neighborhood. Probably the kind of area where they'd call code enforcement on you if you parked a Civic in your yard!
My grandma had a few Cavaliers. I think the first was a red 87 sedan, and then 3 or 4 after that, like clockwork every 4-5 years, until she passed away in late 2004. I drove the 87 soon after I started driving in 1992, I remember I took it to a car wash for her - I want to say it had "graph paper" style background on the dash. Not sure why I recall that so clearly.
For those Celebrity vs Caprice price deltas, I think it was 1983 data - I recall looking at some 1983 newspapers online. I will see if I can find them again, old ads are a fun read.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIj96aUCjoE
I remember they came out early, in 1981, as an '82 model.
When I bought my wife a new 5-speed Corsica in '90, I asked if she'd want a Cavalier wagon, which was about the same price (I'd have preferred that). Since she was 25, she didn't want a wagon.
Seeing the taillights reminds me--a friend and I drove around the Lordstown plant before introduction and I remember seeing one sitting outside an overhead door to the building. It reminded me then, and now, of a Triumph TR-7 from the rear.
Appleway has a bit of a difference between Celebrity and Caprice:
But Dave Smith has some cheap Caprices:
A couple of leftovers, not a lot of difference:
A few weeks later, Appleway again, and some Toyotas:
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Thinking of Cavaliers, when I was in 2nd grade or so, I remember the mom of one of my best friends had a white "Type 10" fastback - it had a sunroof (aftermarket I suppose) which I thought was pretty cool. Their other car was a white K10 Blazer, must have been a Chevy family.
Stuff like this makes me crazy. It's small, which is why it shouldn't happen.
https://www.copart.com/lot/48200267/Photos
In the overall scheme of things, probably no great loss, as it looks like it was fairly beat on, from the interior. But, I love the color, which Mopar called "Teal Green Sunfire Metallic". Looks like the body was fairly solid, too. And, it was a 360 car. Just a 2-bbl with 150 hp stock (the "K" digit in the VIN), but a welcome change over the 135 hp 318-2bbl that was much more common.
I think those hubcaps are off of a 1970 or so Chrysler New Yorker.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP9429qtWTc
Fun to watch these "Behind The Wheel" local car test drives on YouTube. The New Yorker looks good with 5th Avenue trim but some pretty serious build quality issues typical of domestic cars from that era.
I read somewhere that the 5th Avenue Edition, which only came in that two tone "Designer Beige over Designer Creme" in '79, accounted for about 15,000 sales. So, it was probably the most commonly seen R-body, when you take model name and color into account. Plus, with its high price, people who bought the 5th Avenues probably took better care of them, and held onto them longer than lesser models.
One thing I just noticed...the Newport seemed a bit expensive, in MSRP. For instance, in '79 it started at $6405 for a 4-door with the slant six. The cheapest LeSabre 4-door sedan was $6110, while a Limited was $6620. The Delta 88 started at $6212 for the cheapest sedan, and $6524 for the popular Royale. The Newport offered an upgraded interior that would have put it on par with a Limited or Royale, but it was an option, rather than a separate trim level, so my old car book doesn't break out pricing.
A $200-300 price difference doesn't seem like a lot at first, but adjusting for inflation, today it's about $700-1050. That's probably enough to matter to a lot of buyers, unless the more expensive car is something you really gotta have. Of course, they probably offered deep discounts on the R-body pretty quickly.
2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech, 2006 Acura TL w/nav
In 1979, the slant six was a 225-2bbl, with 110 hp, while the 318-2bbl had 135 hp. California models came standard with a 318-4bbl with 155 hp. I wonder if issues like that hurt Mopar's sales, as it gave buyers fewer choices? Although, I guess you could say the same for everyone. For example, the '79 LeSabre in California only offered the 231 V6, the 231 turbo (in the Sport Coupe model), and an Olds 350-4bbl. The Delta 88 only offered the 231 and Olds 350 as well. The LeSabre and Delta relied on Pontiac's 301 to fill the need for engines in the ~300 CID range, and it was banned in CA.
For 1980, the slant six was only offered as a 1-bbl, and cut to 90 hp! The 318-2bbl was cut to 120, which sounds horrible itself, but at least it still had some torque to keep it from performing as bad as that sounds. While the 110 hp 2-bbl slant six was hardly a rocket, I can't imagine how bad the 1-bbl was in a car this size! I've seen quotes of around 17-18 seconds in something like a Diplomat or Mirada with the slant six 1-bbl, , so with the heavier R-body, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 20 seconds!
For 1981, the slant six was cut a bit more, to 85 hp, while the 318-2bbl went up slightly to 130 hp. It's interesting that over the three years, that while the 318 became a bigger and bigger advantage over the slant six, the price penalty became smaller.