Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

nyccarguy · July 2020

@stickguy - your son's Genesis G70 is white? I saw a really sharp looking Genesis G70 2.0T in White this AM. I really like it!

oldfarmer50 · July 2020

qbrozen said:
Quick drive in the AMG today. Thing is such a beast. AC definitely seems weak, so I’ll probably get that checked out. I did a little reading on the air suspension and I am fairly confident it is functioning fine. After I got home, as I was sitting in driveway, I played with the buttons and could see it going up and down. Sons were keen on me leaving it in the lowest setting, so that’s where it sits now. Lol

Have you thought of doing some videos on the repair process like Hoovie does? Could help offset your costs. You just need a Car Wizard.

stickguy · July 2020

More like JR. cheaper to be your own Weezard

stickguy · July 2020

nyccarguy said:
@stickguy - your son's Genesis G70 is white? I saw a really sharp looking Genesis G70 2.0T in White this AM. I really like it!

His is black over black. Sharp when it’s clean. And of course has the 3.3t motor.

oldfarmer50 · July 2020

stickguy said:
Your killing me Ti.

I hope you made the Mrs. eat her ice cream in the parking lot, not the car!

Yeah, he should put cones and caution tape around the car so no one can get within 10 feet.

ab348 · July 2020

nyccarguy said:
@stickguy - your son's Genesis G70 is white? I saw a really sharp looking Genesis G70 2.0T in White this AM. I really like it!

I saw an identical one stop at the corner outside my house the other day. It really was striking-looking. My immediate thought was, "Geez, what a shame that's a Hyundai".

stickguy · July 2020

I won’t let my wife in the car until all the sprinkles are gone.

nyccarguy · July 2020

stickguy said:

nyccarguy said:
@stickguy - your son's Genesis G70 is white? I saw a really sharp looking Genesis G70 2.0T in White this AM. I really like it!
His is black over black. Sharp when it’s clean. And of course has the 3.3t motor.

I knew he had the bigger motor. Black/Black (THUMBS UP)!

breld · July 2020

Speaking of Genesis, I’m really curious to see how they do with the GV80. It’s certainly in a segment that gets a lot of attention, so it will be very telling as to how successful it is without a solid dealer network.

carnaught · July 2020

@breld, Hyundai does SUV’s well.

oldfarmer50 · July 2020

Hoovie’s Camaro just sold for $11479. That’s an interesting feature, resetting the clock after every bid during the last minute. Is it just me or does that seem like a bit much? I guess when you get into a bidding war at the last minute emotions may play a part.

stickguy · July 2020

Still pretty cheap in the end. A few grand over a conceptual book price is not much, if someone really wanted that car.

Not like paying $80,000 for something that has never sold for more than $30,000, and being buried forever.

fintail · July 2020

Yeah I think the Camaro wasn't out of line. 90s cars are the new thing, that one was nicer than the vast majority - you can't fix up a mess for the same money, and it has enough miles to where you can drive it a little and not kill the value. And for some, the provenance is probably worth a couple grand, too.

pensfan83 · July 2020

oldfarmer50 said:
Hoovie’s Camaro just sold for $11479. That’s an interesting feature, resetting the clock after every bid during the last minute. Is it just me or does that seem like a bit much? I guess when you get into a bidding war at the last minute emotions may play a part.

BaT does that as well. Gives people a fair shot at upping their bid or bowing out, not to mention it avoids last minute bids from a bot or program.

oldfarmer50 · July 2020

stickguy said:
Still pretty cheap in the end. A few grand over a conceptual book price is not much, if someone really wanted that car.

Not like paying $80,000 for something that has never sold for more than $30,000, and being buried forever.

Too rich for my blood, I would have tapped out at about half that price. Maybe I should take a shot at that blue Corvette.

stickguy · July 2020

If that’s too rich, you better stay away from auctions like this. Because the only things that end in your price range, are probably not stuff you want to end up owning.

stickguy · July 2020

Blue vette is nice. Too bad about the AT, but manuals in these are rare sadly.

How about this classic from the 90s? Doubt many came like this with a stick. And man, so many buttons!

https://carsandbids.com/auctions/3oko6BXo/1990-pontiac-grand-prix

stickguy · July 2020

I could suck it up if I had to and drive one of these. Love the color. Interesting to read the questions. Seller seems quite dodgy about answering the ones about preventive maintenance like fluid changes. Sounds like he skipped all that, and it has a lot coming due, so is dumping all that on the next owner!

https://carsandbids.com/auctions/9n4WnGgp/2013-bmw-335i-m-sport

pensfan83 · July 2020

stickguy said:
I could suck it up if I had to and drive one of these. Love the color. Interesting to read the questions. Seller seems quite dodgy about answering the ones about preventive maintenance like fluid changes. Sounds like he skipped all that, and it has a lot coming due, so is dumping all that on the next owner!

https://carsandbids.com/auctions/9n4WnGgp/2013-bmw-335i-m-sport

That car isn't special enough, in my opinion, for me to deal with a seller like that. Want service records? Get 'em yourself. LOL, ok...

stickguy · July 2020

I save the paper in a simple Manila folder, just so I don’t have to go through all that hassle to track down old records, which are not always that readily available. But I guess it gives him cover to “casually forget” if pricey yet important service work was fine.

I’ve also found some dealers or shops won’t give out history to a new owner.

It’s his car, he should get all that info and make it available. Otherwise, bidders will assume it needs doing, and lower their bid accordingly.

pensfan83 · July 2020

I do that as well. When I've traded a car or turned in a lease I've left them with the vehicle and inform my salesperson they are there and can do with them what they wish.

The Prelude and came with a nice thick folder and the guy that owned the ZHP did a pretty nice job supplying the same thing

graphicguy · July 2020

oldfarmer50 said:
Hoovie’s Camaro just sold for $11479. That’s an interesting feature, resetting the clock after every bid during the last minute. Is it just me or does that seem like a bit much? I guess when you get into a bidding war at the last minute emotions may play a part.

Hmmmm....was never a modern day Camaro person ('60s vintage, on the other hand.....). But, would have been tempted at that $11,500 price. I knew the work he put into it. It should be totally ready for trouble free (relatively) duty.

explorerx4 · July 2020

In the Q&A section of that BMW up for auction, someone said the VIN decodes to 2012 not a 2013.
The seller seems pretty vague about the services done.

omarman · July 2020

Successfully Decoded
BMW
2013 BMW 3-Series
WBA3A9C54DF686033

qbrozen · July 2020

oldfarmer50 said:

qbrozen said:
Quick drive in the AMG today. Thing is such a beast. AC definitely seems weak, so I’ll probably get that checked out. I did a little reading on the air suspension and I am fairly confident it is functioning fine. After I got home, as I was sitting in driveway, I played with the buttons and could see it going up and down. Sons were keen on me leaving it in the lowest setting, so that’s where it sits now. Lol
Have you thought of doing some videos on the repair process like Hoovie does? Could help offset your costs. You just need a Car Wizard.

Oh, I've thought about it. Actually, had the thought that, rather than the whole "i'm holding a phone" camera angle look, if I was serious, I'd position a series of cameras inside and outside my garage while I bust knuckles, bleed, and curse. If I manage to maim myself, I'm sure it would be a big hit on the interwebs.

I guess I'd be remiss if I did not mention the CEL came on the benz today after driving through some big puddles during a hail storm. Message on the dash is telling me there are no wheel sensors and it can't use TPMS. But I already knew the TPMS light was on and all tires inflated, so why would that now require a CEL? Pretty sure a CEL should have nothing to do with tire pressures.

roadburner · July 2020

stickguy said:
I could suck it up if I had to and drive one of these. Love the color. Interesting to read the questions. Seller seems quite dodgy about answering the ones about preventive maintenance like fluid changes. Sounds like he skipped all that, and it has a lot coming due, so is dumping all that on the next owner!

https://carsandbids.com/auctions/9n4WnGgp/2013-bmw-335i-m-sport

Coolant and brake fluid changed every two years would be what I'd definitely want to see. Oil changes every year/10K miles minimum as well. The transmission and final drive could wait to 60K miles.

oldfarmer50 · July 2020

stickguy said:
If that’s too rich, you better stay away from auctions like this. Because the only things that end in your price range, are probably not stuff you want to end up owning.

So true. Guess I stick to CL.

oldfarmer50 · July 2020

stickguy said:
Blue vette is nice. Too bad about the AT, but manuals in these are rare sadly.

How about this classic from the 90s? Doubt many came like this with a stick. And man, so many buttons!

https://carsandbids.com/auctions/3oko6BXo/1990-pontiac-grand-prix

I saw that and except for the manual tranny it’s Craigslist bargain bin.

oldfarmer50 · July 2020

qbrozen said:

oldfarmer50 said:

qbrozen said:
Quick drive in the AMG today. Thing is such a beast. AC definitely seems weak, so I’ll probably get that checked out. I did a little reading on the air suspension and I am fairly confident it is functioning fine. After I got home, as I was sitting in driveway, I played with the buttons and could see it going up and down. Sons were keen on me leaving it in the lowest setting, so that’s where it sits now. Lol
Have you thought of doing some videos on the repair process like Hoovie does? Could help offset your costs. You just need a Car Wizard.
Oh, I've thought about it. Actually, had the thought that, rather than the whole "i'm holding a phone" camera angle look, if I was serious, I'd position a series of cameras inside and outside my garage while I bust knuckles, bleed, and curse. If I manage to maim myself, I'm sure it would be a big hit on the interwebs.

I guess I'd be remiss if I did not mention the CEL came on the benz today after driving through some big puddles during a hail storm. Message on the dash is telling me there are no wheel sensors and it can't use TPMS. But I already knew the TPMS light was on and all tires inflated, so why would that now require a CEL? Pretty sure a CEL should have nothing to do with tire pressures.

You’re driving fine German engineering, there’s a CEL for the CEL.

corvette · July 2020

oldfarmer50 said:

You’re driving fine German engineering, there’s a CEL for the CEL.

Anything is possible. As a follow up to my E85 experiment in the Tundra, it turns out the freak-out it had wasn't caused by my scan tool, it was legitimately due to the "engine running lean" code causing a cascade of other issues, and generating malfunction codes for the ABS system, combination meter, trailer brake controller, ECU communication circuit, instrument cluster, and BCM. Now, there is no way that all of that stuff should go haywire just on account of out-of-spec fuel, but I guess this is the world that we live in with modern vehicle electronics.

explorerx4 · July 2020

Following up on oldfarmer50's observation, Checken Erste Licht(Check First Light).

.

oldfarmer50 · July 2020

corvette said:

oldfarmer50 said:

You’re driving fine German engineering, there’s a CEL for the CEL.
Anything is possible. As a follow up to my E85 experiment in the Tundra, it turns out the freak-out it had wasn't caused by my scan tool, it was legitimately due to the "engine running lean" code causing a cascade of other issues, and generating malfunction codes for the ABS system, combination meter, trailer brake controller, ECU communication circuit, instrument cluster, and BCM. Now, there is no way that all of that stuff should go haywire just on account of out-of-spec fuel, but I guess this is the world that we live in with modern vehicle electronics.

Have you checked for a bad battery? Once my kid’s 2005 Sable was throwing all sorts of codes and lights. Looked like it was possessed. New battery took care of it all. If that happened on an antique like that I can’t imagine what would happen on today’s rolling computers.

roadburner · July 2020

When I worked at BMW I had a customer who wanted to look at a new 3er that had been on the lot for some time. When I started it the IP lit up like a Christmas tree. Every warning light was illuminated.
All caused by a low battery.

fintail · July 2020

Maybe that's why the turn signals rarely seem to work

corvette · July 2020

@oldfarmer50 - battery is good. I check tire tread depth and battery strength every 1,000 miles or so.

corvette · July 2020

I'm digging that 2007 M6 that watchjrgo picked up for about $4k. Needs some sort of engine work (was quoted at $3,200 for parts and labor, I think), and they also found a severely leaking steering rack. Could be a nice driver if he continues to clean it up cosmetically.

stickguy · July 2020

Haven’t seen the latest episode but it needs crank bearings I think. Something putting metal chunks in the bottom end.

A car that complicated owned by someone that stuck house siding on it as trim, is a bit worrisome.

corvette · July 2020

That sounds right. I thought the house siding was hilarious. The mechanic pronounced the SMG clutch to be good. It looks much better now that he's taken off the rest of the wrap and decals, the giant wing, and most or all of the fake carbon fiber. The replacement of the OE infotainment screen with some sort of aftermarket that tries to integrate with the factory system concerns me, but it seems to work properly so far.

The carbon fiber roof looks awful, looks like that car spent a lot of time outside. I wonder whether there is a repair process, or whether it's easier/cheaper to just get a wrap put on (you could even get a fake carbon fiber wrap to cover the damaged real carbon fiber roof). I saw on his Titan how sensitive wraps are to the surface underneath--most imperfections will telegraph through, so it might need some surface prep before adding a wrap.

Sandman6472 · July 2020

Also read the guys responses to simple questions as puzzling. Doubt he did most of the work asked about. How hard is it to keep all receipts in a big envelope or manila envelope holder? Tend to keep mine in the glove compartment but put them in order of big ticket items. Things like tire rotations/light stuff, go into a separate holder. New tires, battery, oil changes all go where I can get to them easily if needed for warranty work if ever needed. I did get rid of the paperwork for the set of tires no longer on the vehicle as it just seemed pointless but if needed, can just get them from T P. Current sneakers are from Goodyear, first time there, but those are where they are supposed to be, in the glove compartment. Once I do trade-in, throw out all the paperwork especially if it's to a dealer.

stickguy · July 2020

I keep the records, largely for my own use so I will know exactly what was done and when. And if I end up selling privately, will show it if asked (I would list out in the ad). And if there is something warranty related I will leave that in the car (but only if sanitized). But I don't give it to the dealer since they don't seem to actually care (and they have to throw it out anyway).

oldfarmer50 · July 2020

Sandman6472 said:
Also read the guys responses to simple questions as puzzling. Doubt he did most of the work asked about. How hard is it to keep all receipts in a big envelope or manila envelope holder? Tend to keep mine in the glove compartment but put them in order of big ticket items. Things like tire rotations/light stuff, go into a separate holder. New tires, battery, oil changes all go where I can get to them easily if needed for warranty work if ever needed. I did get rid of the paperwork for the set of tires no longer on the vehicle as it just seemed pointless but if needed, can just get them from T P. Current sneakers are from Goodyear, first time there, but those are where they are supposed to be, in the glove compartment. Once I do trade-in, throw out all the paperwork especially if it's to a dealer.

I just have my “guy” print out all the receipts.

Still not back to work up here but my network of contacts tell me that Enterprise just bought 40,000 cars from Hertz. Mostly new stuff with a few thousand miles. Make of that what you will.

stickguy · July 2020

they smelled a bargain?

I wonder what their actual plan is though. Not likely that air travel (and airport rentals) is rebounding fully any time soon. Maybe aiming toward more local rentals to people without cars that previously would have bussed/trained/short hop flew but now want to drive instead?

Wonder if Hertz is going to be disappearing from airports, or the local offices, hence the shedding of units?

andres3 · July 2020

Michaell said:
I mentioned earlier this week that my wife spotted and admired the MB C-Class.

So, in honor of the holiday - and my anniversary - I decided to test drive this:

https://www.mercedesoflittleton.com/new-Littleton-2020-Mercedes+Benz-+-C+300+4MATIC-WDDWJ8EB3LF975406

A few thoughts.

I had to lower the seat all the way to fit - and even then, the pano roof still encroached on my headroom. Once I got situated, I was pretty comfortable and the sightlines were not as obscured as I expected them to be.

Loved the interior color - it went well with the grey exterior. It was equipped with both the Burmester (sp?) audio system and the digital, configurable dash. Cool feature but way too many options. Took me a couple of minutes to just get the tach to display. I suspect that after some time, it would become familiar.

Typical test drive - 4 right turns. I was able to get it onto the highway. I had the car in "comfort" mode for the test drive, and I found it comfortable enough. Certainly more sporty than the Outback - it had better be!.

I think the engine has about the same amount of power as the Outback (250HP, give or take), and the 9 speed transmission was fine at speed, but noticed some jerkiness at low speed. Not sure if that's common, or not. Certainly quick enough, but you can tell it's a 4-cyl turbo from the sound.

Despite the inclusion of the pano roof, the stereo upgrade and the digital dash, I was surprised to discover it didn't have adaptive cruise. Seems like a big omission on a $54K car.

I'm sure if I found a CPO car for $25K less, I might feel differently about it. Just seemed like a lot of money.

And, as I was telling @breld and @jpp75, I just wasn't comfortable at the dealer. I'm fine when I visit Audi and BMW dealers, just don't know what it is about MB.

Funny, I experienced driving my first Helen Keller ACC car this Holiday weekend in the '19 Tiguan in our road trip up the valley. I hated it.

Absolutely hated it. Horrible feature. Can't stand it. First, it takes off my cruise control power way too early, so when I'm getting ready to change lanes to pass, just at the moment I want to keep speed or speed up even to change lanes, it deactivates and slows me down due to a car way in front of me, turning off the "GO" pedal. They need to increase the following distance threshold by another 250 feet. Could it be the automatic braking?

Either way, the Helen Keller features need to go in the round file. I deactivated it.

Add this to my list of features that are a waste of weight, even if that weight is only a few Megabytes on the solid state data drive in the computer's brain:

1. Lane keep assist
2. Navigation (prefer real-time updated sources)
3. Automatic forward braking
4. Automatic Cruise control

Features that need some additional tuning but are passable include:
1. Blind Spot monitors.
2. Cross traffic back up alerts; haven't experienced or tested this yet, but seems worthwhile to have given the way people tend to drive in parking lots.

Bright spots in the '19 Tiguan include:

1. While not a speedster, the 2.0T has plenty of reserve torque to shoot past all the drivers that forget you need to push the "go" pedal a bit more to maintain speed up the grapevine inclines. The torque plays major dividends on mountains.
2. The 8-speed auto seems to be even better tuned and programmed than in my 4 year older '15 A4. Fantastically smooth transmission; though a DSG would be even more efficient (MPG) and faster. Also, VW inheriting the 8-speed auto for this car is a "BONUS" in the non-luxury category.
3. Very roomy and easily swallowed our new doggy crate and luggage for 3 plus for our new dog (French Bulldog - 3 months old - doesn't like traveling by car, always throws up; name's Keyser (as in Keyser Soze from the Usual Suspects).

oldfarmer50 · July 2020

stickguy said:
they smelled a bargain?

I wonder what their actual plan is though. Not likely that air travel (and airport rentals) is rebounding fully any time soon. Maybe aiming toward more local rentals to people without cars that previously would have bussed/trained/short hop flew but now want to drive instead?

Wonder if Hertz is going to be disappearing from airports, or the local offices, hence the shedding of units?

It’s funny you say that. At least locally, both companies are open at the airport but Hertz has it’s branch offices open while Enterprise does not.

andres3 · July 2020

28firefighter said:
I, too, feel out of place at MB dealers and I can’t explain why. Well, actually I can. I’ve found the experience to be overly formal with a lot of, what I perceived to be, fake niceness. No one is mean, it’s just awkward.

Audi and BMW I’ve found to be more laid back all around. More car guys seem to be at those dealers, too, and that is definitely more my speed.

I have found both the MB and BMW of San Diego dealerships to be a bit pretentious. Someone that pulls up in an Audi should command attention and respect

or at least when you mention you own an Audi if they didn't see what you pulled up in.

While if someone owned a lemon Audi, the jig might work, it doesn't work when they act like MB or BMW are a lot snottier/better than Audi, and I actually have liked and enjoyed my past Audi's. It's a turnoff.

Now if I drove up in a Neon and they said "I'm shocked you made it here without a tow truck, we'll give you $8 bucks for it." I'd laugh and buy a car that same day for sure!

explorerx4 · July 2020

Maybe Enterprise is going to sell of their old units and replace them with lower mileage ones, rather than buy new.

andres3 · July 2020

graphicguy said:
Funny about doc fees...some dealers act is if it’s a constitutional amendment they have to follow.

First time I tried to negotiate it away was probably 20 years ago. Can’t remember the car, but I was sitting in F&I and here comes the doc fee on the paperwork. Telling the F&I guy I couldn’t understand why a) it was so high, and b) why I couldn’t do the paperwork and filing myself and save what was probably around $100 they were charging for the doc fee.

F&I guy seemed stunned and said, “well, I guess you could if you really wanted to”. I told him I would and to remove the doc fee. Of course, a manager got involved and told me it was a mandatory fee and that it covered their processing of the paperwork, loan docs, etc at which time I told him I had my own financing in place that that I would file everything with the BMV. He was befuddled, too.

Ended up, they dropped the doc fee and did the paperwork anyway.

That was the beginning of my “here’s my offer, all in” way of negotiations. Some dealers who I’ve done business with before “get” how my offers work. Some, have no clue what it is I’m doing and still try to add fees into my one, all-in offer.

Might be more palatable if they offered real value with their doc fees. But, mostly it’s just filing on online and maybe firing up the printer for a few docs. $100? $200? $300? $500? For that service? No thanks. I’ll walk out of the dealership.

I wonder if it is more of "pretend to mistake" your offer as not all-in, rather than be "clueless" about what you mean by all-in. By pretending it was just a "subtotal" offer, they can try and extract more money from you, and they can more easily say "yes" to the offer if they add in a bunch of below the line add-ons. I have a feeling some prefer a "misunderstanding" to saying "no" to an offer. In other words, wasting time.

stickguy · July 2020

Andre, one thing to check is the settings on the cruise. When I first tried in on my TLX (first car with ACC) I hated it. slowed down hard when I could barely see the car ahead. Figured out (after having it pointed out here) that it was adjustable, and the default was max sensitivity. Once I dialed that down to minimum, it was much better. But I know what you mean about it deciding to hammer the brakes at the wrong time. With the flip side, when you get cleared, it floors the gas.

I actually hate regular cruise control. I almost never use it, since I only trust it on an empty highway, and you don't find many of those in the NE corridor. Too stressful, since I hover my foot over the brake pedal anyway. At least I know the ACC won't run into someone! Still almost never use it. I have to put my right foot someplace, might as well be on the gas pedal. I can hypermile better anyway, since cruise always seems to be dropping down gears on any slight incline.

I personally think BLIS is an excellent feature as added protection, but cross path is the best. Especially when you drive a low sedan in a world of billboard trucks. Much less stressful trying to back out of a parking spot.

Lane keep, that just gets annoying.

andres3 · July 2020

corvette said:

oldfarmer50 said:

You’re driving fine German engineering, there’s a CEL for the CEL.
Anything is possible. As a follow up to my E85 experiment in the Tundra, it turns out the freak-out it had wasn't caused by my scan tool, it was legitimately due to the "engine running lean" code causing a cascade of other issues, and generating malfunction codes for the ABS system, combination meter, trailer brake controller, ECU communication circuit, instrument cluster, and BCM. Now, there is no way that all of that stuff should go haywire just on account of out-of-spec fuel, but I guess this is the world that we live in with modern vehicle electronics.

CASCADE failure! You learn about that in the movie "Passengers"

It doesn't take electronics to have cascading failures though, just bad engineering or product.

andres3 · July 2020

fintail said:
Speaking of dealers and looking, I browsed a handful of dealers this afternoon - MB, Porsche, Audi, BMW, Jag/LR, VW, Subaru, Toyota. These are all within several minutes of each other, some next door, so it is efficient. All dealerships were open, and all had some foot traffic. MB, BMW, Jag, and Toyota seemed relatively busy for a holiday, maybe with so little else going on, people wanted something to do. Everyone was wearing masks, and there was obvious signage about the facilities being cleaned.

MB: I instantly encountered the salesman who dealt with me on the wagon. He greeted me by name, but was with a customer. I walked the lot and looked and the showroom. Nothing really got me going, but there was something - a 140K+ S560 coupe without Distronic. Some kind of weird abandoned special order I suspect - it had a Designo paint color (an unusual dark red) and interior, but virtually zero other options and no adaptive cruise that can be had on many mainstream cars.

Porsche: I only walked the lot, didn't encounter any salespeople. Saw a few Taycan, all had MSRP within a few hundred dollars of each other, 169K. CUVs outnumbered cars maybe 3:1.

Audi: I only walked the lot, didn't feel like checking out the small showroom. Didn't encounter any salespeople, they had tons of CUVs, no hot car models that I could see.

BMW: visited the new facility for the first time. Very nice place, with something from every model in the huge showroom - mildly reminiscent of the new car section of BMW Welt in Munich. I was greeted by a salesman, I explained I was just passing time and browsing. Most appealing car to me was a M2C in blue. There were some wacky things, like a loaded 760 at something like 180K, and some high spec 8ers with big prices.

Jag/LR: walked the lots and showroom, was greeted by a salesman who was a car guy, and we chatted. He saw my wagon and mentioned the Jag Sportbrake. Saw lots of IPace, LR had a ton of stuff including a couple new Defender, priced around 75K. A couple of Range Rover Autobiography MSRP well over 200K IIRC were amusing - makes a G-Wagen seem sensible.

VW: walked the lot, avoided the small showroom. Lots of selection, greeted by a salesman was I was leaving. Good mix of cars and CUVs. Only one Arteon, but I suspect that will sell in small numbers anyway.

Subaru: walked the lot, avoided the small showroom. Didn't meet any salespeople. Appeared to have a full lineup in stock. Subaru and VW are adjacent, under the same umbrella, and are relatively small.

Toyota: walked the lot, avoided the showroom. Was met by a salesman, who chatted me up, a car guy, and he noticed the wagon. He had some questions about my car, which was fun. The numerous flavors of 4Runner caught my eye, along with a Landcruiser "heritage" or something, with a retro badge. It looks kind of retro inside too, like 2005. There was one Supra outside, MSRP around 60K, no ADM.

A couple pics: No, this is not my car, but close. This one is the same exterior color and wheels, but has a different (Designo beige/brown leather) interior, and lacks a few interior options had by my car. MSRP 83K:

So much variety!

That Audi picture is probably why the North American Audi Club now allows SUV's into the "A" Beginner's group at HPDE track weekend events. SUV's used to be banned for high center of gravity and weight issues.

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