Subaru Crew - Meet The Members II

paisan · March 2002

Good move

You should actually just leave the interior light on, windows open and hands on the wheel until the officer comes up to the car, getting your info out of your wallet, glove box or other area could be mis-interpreted by the officer as you going to obtain a weapon.

-mike

tincup47 · March 2002

My interior light was on, window down, and he waited until I had my info out before getting out of his cruiser. My hands were in plain site as he approached my vehicle.

ateixeira · March 2002

Hey, you're using my "what if" scenario strategy right back at me! ;-)

I think you're giving the black box a little too much credit. I don't see how it will lead to better driver training. That's wishful thinking.

For example, we all know driving in slippery conditions increases the chances of a collision, have for years, but they don't test those skills when you get a license. Bob Bondurant does have a wet skidpad, so it can be done.

The data itself could be useful - but again I'll argue that there are more cost effective ways to obtain that data. If black boxes were free and consumer protections were in place, fine, but neither is true.

I'll keep going back to that prime point, though, is it the most cost effective way to obtain accurate and useful collision data? No.

-juice

tincup47 · March 2002

I'm looking at accuracy, not cost effectiveness. Nothing is better than hard, real world data. You sound like an Auto manufacturer's bean counter (Just kidding). I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, as what we say here will ultimately have little or no effect on whether it happens or not.

ateixeira · March 2002

Accuracy is easy when you don't have to account for costs. But that approach invites gross inefficiencies.

Some times I do think like a bean counter, in fact my Master's is in MIS but fell under the business school, so yes I took all the bean counting classes. Though in my defense I usually count the beans to ensure that the money is spent on the right things.

For example, when Bob asks for a bigger-than-Forester truck, he's dreaming about future models, while I'm thinking "OK, that's 2 billion or more of R&D funds taken away from powertrain development". So I look at what alternatives we could get with those same funds, and would prioritize a 2.5l turbo, the low range fitted to US-spec vehicles, etc. The amount of money is finite.

I respect your opinion (and Bob's), but I often find myself challenging people to come up with better and yes, more efficient, solutions than what they propose at first.

On the other hand, you may know a lot more about it than I do. I guessed a black box would cost $300, but I could be way off base. If so, please step in. If it were $30 per car, I'd say do it, just lobby to pass a little consumer protection legislation first.

-juice

paisan · March 2002

<- has a business degree, and own my own company and am a die-hard capitalist. In the end it comes down to $ and cents. Whatever will make the car company more $ is what is going to happen!

-mike

locke2c · March 2002

quote: Nothing is better than hard, real world data.

Data can be, and often is, misinterpreted. Data is nothing without context, and often times someone who knows that and has their own agenda can make the data prove their point, in their context.

-Colin

tincup47 · March 2002

I certainly agree that potential abuses should be prevented before implementation. With the cost of electronics today, I doubt if it would raise the cost of vehicles much. I also tend to look at cost effectivness, but in the Auto industry if you try to put a value on safety issues the press will crucify you. I certainly agree that if Bob had his way, Subaru's would be $50-60000 vehicles (once again, just kidding) and If Paisan had his way, they would be as large as Hummers(Ditto). We all have unique ways to look at issues, and one of the nice things about this board is that we all can passionately state our positions without rancor.

ateixeira · March 2002

What do you know, I agree 100%. :-)

-juice

rsholland · March 2002

How did I get involved with this?

I'm a dreamer, I'll admit. (RIGHT BRAIN RULES!) However, nothing ever gets done if you don't dream...

Bob

lucien2 · March 2002

Would you people get back to work?!?!

:')

rsholland · March 2002

About a week ago I happened to visit the web site of Ace Kensington, that neat little Subaru dealer located on Radley Mews in London. On their web site there was a section to request brochures.

So I requested brochures of all the various Subarus sold in the UK. They came in the mail today! I thought for sure that they wouldn't send them to someone from another country, half way around the globe, no less.

Anybody who visits London should visit this dealer. You'll enjoy the experience I'm sure.

Bob

ateixeira · March 2002

Bob - what if you heard that Subaru was coming out with:

* full size truck/pickup/SUV line
* Class IV towing
* H8, H8 turbo optional
* low range
* 8 seater

But then they told you they had a development budget of exactly $100 million. Would you still want it? That'd be cutting a lot of corners...

-juice

paisan · March 2002

I'd take it, they are part of GM, so they can harness the power of Isuzu

of course I have no idea how far $100M would go though.

-mike

subaru_team · March 2002

with the black boxes is a 9 second freeze frame of what was happening at the time of an accident. Not a constant monitor (who could manage all of that data). Wouldn't you want to know what was happening at the time of the accident? Were all components working as they should? If not, could they be improved? Safer cars? It's not just about assigning blame, but maybe safer cars? (heh-heh)- I am really enjoying the discussion though.

Patti

rsholland · March 2002

I'm not sure what $100,000 would buy, so it's hard for me to comment.

I'm just saying if you don't think outside the box, and challenge existing paradigms, you end up with boring stuff. At some point Subaru will have larger budgets, and will be able to afford to venture into "unthinkable" areas.

Remember, Honda and Toyota were once smaller than Subaru is today, and look at the markets their in today. Also, a lot of people think Porsche is nuts for building an SUV. They've committed a lot money to prove those naysayers wrong...

Bob

tincup47 · March 2002

Until the Cayenne (dumb name) proves itself by selling as well as Porsche expects, whether it was a good idea or proves naysayers wrong is an unknown. I'm one of the people who thinks it was a bad idea, probably as bad for their image as the 914/4 was. I'd think the same thing if Land Rover decided to branch out into sports cars. In todays market, for a marque to succeed you need to maintain a focus on what you do well. The money spent for Porsche to develop an SUV IMHO would have been better spent on improving their current lineup. With the current explosion in SUV models, I have doubts that the Cayenne will meet expectations.

ateixeira · March 2002

This is a gross estimate but to do a new platform like that, with a new engine and almost no off-the-shelf parts, would cost in the billions to develop, at least $3B or so to do properly.

If you cut corners you'll have subpar quality, reliability issues, poor crash test results, and horrible NVH. In other words, it wouldn't be a Subie, even with the H8 and AWD.

By the way, I'm with the camp that says a Porsche SUV is sacreligious! The world may come to an end when the first one is sold! This is Armageddon, folks, and I'm not just talking about a bad movie! The fat lady will sing!

Hey, those guys with the white lab coats are back, what do they want this time? What's that stun-gun for? ZAP!

Ahm, dis is der Porsche bean counter, Mr. juice haz been sent bahk to graduate skool to re-do the chaptah on "corporate profits". Pleez, as you ver...

lark6 · March 2002

Bob: I went there in November 2000. Very friendly, let me sit in an Impreza P1 but not drive it (that's okay - I don't think I'd want to drive in London traffic). I have some brochures from them on UK Forester range, dealer-installed options/accessories and SWRT merchandise. Also an interesting puff piece from UK CAR magazine re the use of Foresters as service cars for the SWRT - carrying parts, personnel, and "visiting dignitaries" as well as running recce.

Ed

paisan · March 2002

I'm not sure what they are building but my guess is that it will be nothing more than an expensive grocery getter, something along the lines of an X5, not a real SUV. As was stated above, they should stick to sports cars and improving them.

-mike

rangerron7 · March 2002

"You veel beleev in das SUV, Herr Juice!"

Ha Ha!

jei · March 2002

means? A rally team?

John

paisan · March 2002

kens · March 2002

The Cayenne shows just how attractive the SUV market is to auto manufacturers. Even a sports car company like Porsche can't resist getting a piece of the action.

Ken

storyteller · March 2002

I posted something on a Mazda site about Subarus having won "industry awards," such as the CU "Best Buy" award for Forester. Someone has challenged me for a listing. The Subaru site has a partial listing, and I keep coming up with repetitive information about WRX. Can you direct me to anything that would be more comprehensive?

hypov · March 2002

1988
Justy - "MotorWeek" TV-Driver's Choice Award, "Best Bargain Car"
Legacy - Federation International de l'Automobile World Land Speed Endurance Record

1989
Legacy sets two world and 13 international endurance and speed records

1990
Legacy - Home Mechanix "Easy Maintenance Car of the Year"

1991
Subaru SVX - Popular Science "Best of What's New"

Subaru SVX - Automotive Industries "Car of the Year: Annual Engineering Award"

1992
Subaru SVX - Automobile Magazine "1992 All Stars"

1995
Outback - Popular Science Magazine "Best of What's New"

1996
Impreza - J. D. Powers & Associates "Best Compact Car"

Outback - MotorWeek TV "Driver's Choice Award"

1997
Forester - Consumers Digest Magazine "Best Buy"

Forester - AAA 1998 Top Car Awards Outback - Motorweek TV "Driver's Choice Award"

1998
Forester - New England Motor Press Assn. "Best in Class"

Legacy - Kiplinger's Magazine "Best New Car"

Forester - Consumers Digest "Best Buy"

2000
Legacy top performer in IIHS crash tests

Outback takes First Place, Seat of the Pants Class, 2000 Alcan Rally

Outback - Northwest Automotive Press Assn. "Best in Class"

Forester - Consumers Digest "Best Buy" third consecutive year

2001
The 2002 Impreza WRX voted Most Fun to Drive by Auto Week Magazine.

Sport Compact Car Magazine names the Impreza WRX one of the Eight Great Rides of 2001.

Subaru of America, Inc. receives the Consumers Voice Award from Planetfeeback.com.

-Dave

locke2c · March 2002

Dave,

you know what's odd?

in 2000 a Subaru Impreza 2.5RS WON the Alcon 5000 outright! Paul Eklund of www.getprimitive.com was one of the drivers.

But since they beat the factory Outback H6 effort, of course the Outback gets the footnote in (subaru's own) history.

-Colin

kens · March 2002

Don't to forget this one too:

On October 30, 1996, the Forester won the renowned Hulman Trophy* for setting a new world record with an average speed of 180.082 km/h in the 24-hour challenge at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

http://www.fhi.co.jp/subaru/bode27.htm

rsholland · March 2002

Whether Porsche should be building an SUV, or not is not the point. The point is Porsche made a gutty call by deciding to do build an SUV, just as Chrysler did with the PT Cruiser, Prowler and Viper. Being "predictable" and "safe" is what Chevy does, not Subaru (or at least I hope not).

As to whether the Porsche SUV will be a success; I wouldn't bet against it... Their product planners know what they're doing. And, judging by their teaser ads, I suspect it will be more than capable off-road. In fact, I'm sure Porsche will off-road race it, just to prove its capabilities.

Bob

paisan · March 2002

Hmm, see 90% of the US off-roading isn't RACING, has nothing to do with racing, and racing one doesn't prove anything, at least for the US off-road market. Same reason that the Pajero (montero) wins Paris-Dakkar, they are made for those type of events where there are pseudo roads, here people do rock crawling and stuff like that. But we'll see when it comes out, I'm sure it will be a hit @ the Country Clubs and wedding banquets of the rich people.

-mike

rsholland · March 2002

Just looking over these new brochures I've noticed:

 Outback H-6 has the same wood/leather steering wheel as ours, but with the MOMO logo in the center, like the WRX.

 Outback H-6 has a thin chrome ring around the instruments. It looks real classy.

 Outback H-6 has a different front bumper from ours.

 Outback H-6 still has the old pop-out-of-the-dash cupholder.

 Outback H-6 has blackwall tires. Why can't we get those here?

 Outback H-6 has a self-leveling rear suspension.

 Outback H-6 has 215/60x16 tires.

 Outback H-6 has a full-size spare tire.

 Legacy 2.5 GX has 205/50x16 tires (not 55 section).

 Legacy 2.5 GX has wheels that look like the ones found on our Outback Sport. They look great!

 Forester has headlight washers.

 Forester turbo has a blacked out mesh grille, and it looks great!

 Forester (not turbo) has a dual-range 5-speed tranny (we already knew that).

 Forester turbo has chrome rims around the instruments, like the H-6 Outback.

 Forester has two fold-down, seat-mounted, front armrests.

 Forester has self-leveling rear suspension.

 Forester, Impreza (except WRX), and Legacy have hill-holder clutches.

 WRX has 17" tires

hypov · March 2002

locke2c Mar 4, 2002 4:27pm

Marketing decision I bet. But what's so bad with "1st place goes to the RS and Outback takes second"?

I thought the H6 debut in 2001?
Oh wait, we get MY2001 in 2000...[brain fart]

-Dave

fibber2 · March 2002

how do you guys manage to find the time to keep up this kind of dialog during the work day? I'm struggling to keep up!

The arguments have been thought provoking and compelling. And just maybe I am softening my stand against the 'box' a bit, but not yet ready to give in. It is fundamentally a decent idea, but I cannot help but see the 'dark side' of potential abuse. One mile over the limit is breaking the law, and that could be the 'wiggle room' for your insurance company to invalidate your coverage.

A couple of thoughts on some constitutional issues raised during the weekend. Forgive me if I don't have this exact, for it has been a long time since school. Where is a copy of that old parchment when you need it???

Our forefathers were very insightful about the need for governmental expansion, and included something known as the 'elastic clause'. Championed by the Federalists, it allows the offices of government to expand to accommodate technological advances and other challenges. Without it, constitutional amendments would be needed to create departments like NTSB, NHTSC, EPA, DOT, etc. State constitutions have similar provisions. And hence, driving became a privilege granted by our government. Essentially an usurpation of power(?). After all, before 1905 (or so), you didn't need govt approval to pilot your horse & buggy, or that early motorized beast?

But arguing the other side was Jefferson and the Republican-Democrats. In the name of non-intrusive govt, they inserted a clause saying (paraphrased) that any power not specifically granted to the govt remained the province of the populace. That provides the protection of day-to-day personal mobility. So while the govt regulates the equipment on your automobile and 'how' you drive, 'where' you go should remain personal and private. I would think then that using your car to track your whereabouts without a court order should be a protected right of privacy.

But I am also willing to bet that I am a far better engineer than a constitutional lawyer!! Go ahead - throw some stones thru this argument... ;-)

Steve

tincup47 · March 2002

I don't think so, the gutty call is to avoid the "me too" mentality. Especially when VW is going to be selling a version of the same vehicle, the Tuareg. BMW and Mercedes already made sedans and station wagons, Mercedes has been making G-Wagens since 1924, along with trucks so it wasn't as large a stretch for them to make an SUV. Porsche has always been sports cars, same as Ferrari. I agree with paisan, this will not be an off road vehicle. The PT Cruiser, Viper, Prowler were concept car hits that filled new niches, or made bold statements about Chrysler styling and engineering. The Porsche SUV is an X5 copycat, and is at least 2 years too late to the market. I for one will not look at Porsche the same as I have done in the past, and I know plenty of others that feel the same.

tincup47 · March 2002

The 10th Amendment gave the power not granted to the federal Goverment to the State Governments, not the populace per se. That is why your State Govt. sets the rules by which you get the privelege to drive.

subaru_team · March 2002

If you go to Subaru.com, check out the Baja microsite. There is a game there called the Baja Quest with some pretty decent prizes. It's pretty self explanatory, but I wanted to make sure you all check it out. I'd love to see someone for the Edmunds crew win!

Patti

paisan · March 2002

Ok this morning I was watching the news, and saw a commercial for a Hondah Civic with 4 kids in it. They are listening to the radio munching on food etc, when the 4th kid gets in he says "Where are we going?" The other 3 kids turn silent and look at him like he is nutz and the music stops. Then one of the other kids turns to the others and says "Where are we going?!? Duh!" and the camera pans back and they are just sitting in the parked car.

I think Subaru needs to counter that with 4 kids getting into the WRX with Auto-x Helmets and asking "where are we going?" with an answer of "the track or racing school" or something along those lines!

-mike

subaru_team · March 2002

I can't figure out that commercial. It doesn't seem to make you want to check out how the car performs. I guess it's directed to folks who care about looks alone. Ahhhh - youth!

Patti

subaru_team · March 2002

for the test today (boy/girl) are you going to share with us or do we have to wait until the big day comes? If you tell us now, we can all "help" with your name choices! I'm sure you would welcome the assistance ;~}

Patti

paisan · March 2002

Boy R!cers!

-mike

storyteller · March 2002

So now we're scripting Subaru advertisements here? There's one I want to see because it is based on a real life incident. Maybe they can do this one when Crocodile Dundee's contract runs out.

The camera comes in on what is obviously a lawyer's office. The lawyer is in his chair, looking over the desk at a divorcing couple in the process of dividing the family goods. The male of the couple says, "I'd want you to have the oriental rug, sweetheart. It always meant so much to you." She sniffs with appreciation and tells him to be sure to take the LazyBoy, the TV and its remote.

They go on tenderly splitting up their possessions until one of them mentions the Outback. "You'll get the Outback over my dead body," she says through gritted teeth. He challenges her, she retorts and as the camera pulls back the lawyer's office erupts in a screaming fight as both of them insist that all they want from the marriage is custody of the Outback.

lucien2 · March 2002

Ok 1st off its "gutsy" not "gutty." "Gutty" makes you all sound like fishmongers or something.

2nd, I spent 2 and a half hours last night as part of an automobile focus group. I've spent my entire morning web allocation sifting through the posts all you jobless slackers cranked out yesterday (j/k :-)) ) so I don't have time to go into the details right now, but hear this and hear it well: the SUV is dead. Detroit will try and push the niche as hard as possible to squeeze as much profit out of it as possible, especially since GM has spent no money on cars now for a while; but everyone else is grabbing thier hats and heading for the door. I don't know which manufacturer this firm was working for, but the purpose of the group was to help plan a new model. The message they got was loud and clear from our group- crossover, baby. Afterward, the moderator (a career car-market researcher) told me, "SUVs are done."

To that end, I think the Cayenne is more in the sportwagon vein than the truck vein.

hypov · March 2002

subaru_team Mar 5, 2002 5:34am

The ad reminded me of a story that goes something like, "a friend bought a new Norton bike with all the money he had. He pushed it back home, pushed it around the neighborhood,... did that till the next paycheck came around"

So when the commercial when "Where are we going?!? Duh!" I went, hehehe they got no money for gas

-Dave

paisan · March 2002

Lucien I hope you are right. Maybe they can go back to making SUVs for those of us who use em as they were originally meant to be used for!

We need more SMVs not SUVs

-mike

rsholland · March 2002

I have to believe their product planners know what they're doing. I suspect that the main reason for the Cayenne is not the "me too" thinking, but rather survival; or at least survival as determined/desired by Porsche bean counters. I'm sure Porsche has seen more than a fair share of their customers trade in their 911s and Boxsters for BMW X5s (and Land Rovers), and want to stop the customer drain.

As to it's of road capability, my understanding is that it "will" have a low range, so that suggests more than meager off-road capability to me.

Loosh, the people in the market study you attended will most likely never consider a Porsche (of any kind), so yes, for the "mainstream," crossovers appear to be the future. Porsche, like Land Rover, has never been a mainstream brand. There will always be a market for a true off-roader, small though it may be. Despite what everyone says here, I'm sure Porsche will sell every Cayenne they make.

Bob

kens · March 2002

How about an ad for the WRX that starts out like the Honda Civic ad:
-------
3 kids in a Civic, the fourth jumps in and asks "Where are we going?".

"Anywhere! Lets go!" and the kids are ready to pull out of their parking spot when the driver looks into his side mirror and sees the distinctive WRX headlights coming down the road. With turbo at full boost, the WRX whizzes by! All four kids stare in silence at the tailights of the WRX with their mouths hanging open.

"Where are we going? Duh!" The kids somberly go back to their hanging out in the Civic.

Zoom up to the WRX. See four kids with huge grins on their faces inside.

Pan out. Ending shot with the WRX going down twisites with the captions "The Beauty of AWD".
------
So, Patti, when do I start my job as Marcom director for SOA?

Ken

bluesubie · March 2002

<< As to it's of road capability, my understanding is that it "will" have a low range, so that suggests more than meager off-road capability to me. >>

Bob, take a look at the Imprezas in your UK brochure. Even the base Impreza wagons (1.6 & 2.0) have a lo-range. :-D

-Dennis

locke2c · March 2002

Now I'm really baffled as to why they took that feature away from the North American market.

-Colin

paisan · March 2002

Do the vehicles with low range have AWD? I'm pretty sure that none of the Lo-range equipped subarus in the US had AWD, only 4wd. When not in 4wd (which could only be used in low traction) they were FWD. Just a thought.

-mike

kens · March 2002

Mike,

I checked the SOJ website and the models with lo-range have the same AWD system as those without.

Ken

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