I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

ab348 · December 2020

When the '70 Toronado was introduced I didn't like it much mostly because they had done away with the hideaway headlights. But with time it has become my favorite of that generation. The one-year-only '70 Toro GT had a 400HP 455, the most powerful version of that engine ever factory-installed by Olds. It would move.

tjc78 · December 2020

I drove it once. It drove like every other large FWD GM of the era IMO except it was faster. Being a floaty barge lover, I quite enjoyed it.

sda · December 2020

I can say mom’s Aurora served her well in the 13 years she had it. Dad liked it too. It was purchased with 24k/mi. at a Lexus dealer in 2000. The original owner traded it for a new Lexus LS. Other than a few minor repairs over the many years the Aurora was reliable until the head gasket issue in 2013, at 105k.

sda · December 2020

I agree, I was a little let down on how the Aurora drove. Even with the autobahn tire/brake upgrade mom’s Aurora had the car was not very nimble and the ride was a bit harsh at times. It would slap over certain bumps which should have been muted more. I think it did 0-60 in the 8.5 sec range so it wasn’t that quick, but that 4.0 Northstar was silky smooth with a refined muscular V8 sound.

uplanderguy · December 2020

RE.: '70 Toronado GT--probably about five years back, at Hershey one was for sale in the car corral there, and the guy I went with was seriously smitten. It was a nice car, though not a low-mileage pampered car per se. I want to say it was a brownish color although I have a habit of remembering year, make and model more than color. I also want to say it had a floor shift and brown cloth buckets. Is that right? That would've been a job with that flat floor. I do remember it had striping (pinstriping) around the wheel openings. The seller wouldn't come down much and my friend didn't bite.

When I was a kid I used to think the '70 Toro was a one-year design, but I realize it's a fairly big facelift (redesigned wheel openings make me think 'big facelift').

andre1969 · December 2020

uplanderguy said:
When I was a kid I used to think the '70 Toro was a one-year design, but I realize it's a fairly big facelift (redesigned wheel openings make me think 'big facelift').

I think that's a part of the GM magic back then. They could come out with something that looked "all new" but in reality was just a "heavy facelift."

It is kind of curious, too, that GM went through the that much effort to facelift the Toronado, and the Riviera, for a 1-year only style. I'm not a huge fan of the '70 Toronado's restyle, but I don't hate it, either. Now the Riveria, on the other hand... Something about the way they restyled it, it just seems downscale to me, like it's just a bloated Skylark, rather than a proper Riviera. It somehow manages to look pimpy, and like an old people's car, at the same time!

In contrast, I don't think Cadillac really messed up the '70 Eldorado, compared to '69. Wasn't it really just a change in the grille texture? One one hand, dropping the hidden headlights and going to exposed was definitely a cost-cutting move. But, with the hidden-headlight models, often I noticed that the covers didn't quite align with the grille, and that would make the overall effect look sloppy. And, since the headlight covers are solid, but the grille is flow-through, at certain times of the day if the sun hit it just right, it just seemed...off. I think it was the bold, widely space grille pattern with the large openings that did it. If it was a finer texture, that carried over to the covers, it might have worked better.

andre1969 · December 2020

Just out of curiosity, I went on Cars.com and searched for Oldsmobile Auroras. Wow, they've really become scarce. The closest one to my zipcode popped up in Pittburgh, PA, about 210 miles away!!

But, I'll admit, it' looks like it's in nice shape at a quick glance.

fintail · December 2020

I searched for Auroras within 200 miles on cars.com as well - none! Surprising, as old cars usually hang on longer here.

Did the Aurora and the Riviera of the era debut concurrently?

andre1969 · December 2020

I remember the Riviera coming out as a '95 model, but fairly early in the 1994 calendar year. I can't remember when, exactly, but do remember seeing them fairly early on in the summer. IIRC, there was no '94 Riviera. The Aurora's first model year was '95, but I can't remember if it was an early release or not.

Also, IIRC, there was a gap year in there, as the first-gen Aurora was '95-99, while the 2nd-gen was 2001 until the end (2003?)

I just did a search for Rivieras, and did a bit better. Closest one popped up in Columbus, New Jersey. 122 miles away, as the crow flies.

I do like the '95-99 Riviera, thinking of it as sort of a 2-door Park Avenue. But good lord, that lead-in pic showing it dead-on from the front, isn't exactly the most flattering angle in the world.

This also popped up, and kinda caught my eye. But, I dunno if I'm in the mood to go up to Connecticut to look at it!

roadburner · December 2020

My FIL was a Buick man. I was no fan of the FWD Rivieras, but I thought the 1982 wasn't bad looking. His last Riviera was a "Styling by Lifebuoy" 1996 model. In 1998 my wife bought a 318ti and I was honestly surprised at how the entry level BMW was better assembled and just felt more substantial than the Riviera. I was completely underwhelmed; it definitely felt low rent compared to the 1982 he had.

uplanderguy · December 2020

Wow, color choices inside, besides gray, in even those last Rivs!

I was a fan of the very-minimal-woodgrain-trim dash on those last Rivs, but I know the aftermarket came up with woodgrain paneling for the panel.

Those Rivs may be among the last GM coupes with frameless door glass, which I like. I guess they built the Camaro and Firebird until 2002 I think, and those had it too though.

uplanderguy · December 2020

andre, re.: the '70 Riviera....I like the '66-69, but don't care for the '70. They put that funky side molding on it, and gave you a choice of two fender-skirt looks. One was a normal skirt, which I generally don't like on most cars, and the other was a weird 'mini' fender skirt, which looked even worse IMHO.

Re.: '67-70 Eldos--you can tell on the '67 that they had plans to put the parking/cornering lights, in the corners. Visible seams there on the '67....aaarrgggh! I used to think the interior on the Eldo was plain compared to the Mark III, but with hindsight, the Mark III interior seems pimpy/cheesy to me, and the Eldo is understated.

fintail · December 2020

I remember in 1995, my mom had to rent a car after her car was in a fender bender. Her small town didn't have a normal rental agency - local car dealers handled it (today there's a Hertz attached to the Ford dealer). She was sent to a small GM dealer a town over, to pick up her rental (a burgundy Corsica, I remember it vividly - had that aggressive throttle tip in that made it seem like a rocket until 40-45 mph). While waiting for the rental, I remember her looking at the Riviera in the showroom, and she really admired it. IIRC sticker was like 40K, and she was shocked - she couldn't believe it was so expensive. On that note, I remember she was also attracted to the first Toyota Avalon, but the 30K sticker on the loaded one at the dealer turned her off.

uplanderguy · December 2020

Re.: '70 Eldo, I agree that the revisions up front didn't damage the design. I've never been a fan of hideaway headlights on any car, anyway, although prefer those to inboard exposed headlights.

uplanderguy · December 2020

I used to think on cars like the Eldo and Riv, and probably the Toro too, how cool it was that you could open the door from the rear seat--but did anybody actually do that, LOL?!

andre1969 · December 2020

uplanderguy said:
I used to think on cars like the Eldo and Riv, and probably the Toro too, how cool it was that you could open the door from the rear seat--but did anybody actually do that, LOL?!

That's a good point...probably not too often! You'd think that if someone had to sit in the back seat in the first place, it would be because someone was already in the front seat. So, if you're getting out of the back seat, either the driver or front seat passenger is going to have to get out, anyway. Unless they're a bit petite and/or flexible enough that they can just sit there while the seatback folds forward. But, I guess it's possible there are times that it could come in handy.

On the subject of cheapening interiors, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Eldorado, if you got leather seats, only the front seat was leather? That the back seat was vinyl? It seems like some awfully strange cost-cutting to me. Or maybe it was some other car I'm thinking of? And I do agree...in some respects Lincoln interiors back then seem a bit higher quality, but in other respects, it was definitely going for that pimp style.

explorerx4 · December 2020

I have never seen one of these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPTPM8-PLHY

roadburner · December 2020

My favorite Rivieras are the 66-67 and 71-72.

uplanderguy · December 2020

I don't recall that about the Eldo, andre, and since in Greenville the Chevy dealer was also the Caddy dealer, I got the brochures; not to say I might not have missed that. I do remember Caddy brochures saying that leather was in the seating surfaces only, implying that center bolsters and edging were vinyl.

Your earlier remark about the last Riv being somewhat of a two-door Park Avenue is interesting and I'd never thought of that before, but good analogy.

I thought that last Park Avenue was interesting....I remember it was actually taller and I think, longer, than its predecessor. It looked substantial to my eyes, and I can't think of anything else from anywhere that was comparable in FWD, size, and six-passenger capacity if required.

uplanderguy · December 2020

Here's a '70 Riviera with the mini fender skirt. Seam! My eyes!

uplanderguy · December 2020

My favorite Rivieras are the 66-67

In '67 GM had a gorgeous, really deep burgundy or plum color, like a wine, that was very rich. A couple years ago at the big car show in Greenville, somebody had a '67 Toronade Deluxe in that color and it was striking. I recall Rivs that color too.

I could enjoy a '67 Riv GS with the chrome road wheels, in that color.

andre1969 · December 2020

The 1997-05 Park Ave definitely had a more substantial look to it than the 1991-96. Although in some dimensions, there's not a huge jump. For instance, the final style is 206.8", versus 205.9" for the previous design. Width isn't that much greater either...74.7" versus 74.1". However, height was pretty noticeable: 57.4" versus 55.1". And the wheelbase was stretched, from 110.8" to 113.8". Oddly, cargo capacity was reduced slightly, from 20.3 cubic feet to 19.1.

IIRC, the 1995 Aurora and Riviera were the first GM cars to use their new "G" platform, which was supposedly the strongest FWD platform on the market at the time. When the Park Ave was redone for '97, it was moved to the G platform as well. Even though the Riviera looked like it had very little in common with the Park Ave, under the skin they had a fairly strong relation. I guess it would a similar correlation to, say, a 1978 Monte Carlo versus a 1978 Malibu 4-door?

ab348 · December 2020

At $10K for the full package, their initial estimates of sales volume were ludicrous. I imagine they didn't even sell 1000 of them.

andre1969 · December 2020

ab348 said:
At $10K for the full package, their initial estimates of sales volume were ludicrous. I imagine they didn't even sell 1000 of them.

Yeah, and I'm not buying the whole "You'll still have a European sport wagon for thousands less than a Volvo or Audi" ploy, either. I seriously doubt your typical Audi or Volvo buyer was going to get lured into one of these.

"Exclusive" and "stands out from the crowd" also sounds a bit hyperbolic. Just looks like a Taurus with a spoiler package, to me.

My grandparents had an '89 Taurus LX sedan, and I'll say, it was a really nice car...for a Ford. But, my neighbors had an '89 Volvo wagon that they bought used, in 1992. I can't remember if it was a 740 or 760, but I do remember it was NICE. Not, "nice for a Ford" nice, but NICE...if that makes sense. It had a high-quality feel to it, inside and out. I seem to recall the interior being a bit stark, but still it had an expensive, high quality feel to it. Just putting a spoiler kit and some suspension/tire upgrades on a Taurus is NOT going to put it in the league of my neighbors' Volvo. Now there was that other Volvo wagon, the 240GL or whatever they were calling it, by then. Kind of felt more like a re-serialed 1965 Dart than a brand-new car. But again, they had a high quality feel to them. Not luxurious, but sturdy. And the types of people who were buying those 240GLs seemed more like anti-car people, who didn't care about the latest style or handling, but still wanted something solid and durable, so something like this Taurus would be lost on them.

Plus, weren't Volvo buyers back in those days kind of like a cult, who swore by their cars?

As for my neighbors' car, I remember around 1998, it was getting unreliable. None of the local mechanics wanted to mess with it, so every time it broke it was back to the dealer in Virginia, about 20-25 miles away. It was starting to get pricey too, so they finally gave up and they bought a Subaru Legacy Outback. From one cult to another, I guess

uplanderguy · December 2020

I'm not real up on Volvo models, but is it the 240 the one that was sort-of the older style? A friend of mine said "Their headlights look like airport landing lights", LOL.

andre1969 · December 2020

Yep, basically this...

They built them from 1974-1993. They replaced the 140 series that was built from something like 1966-73. I don't know if the 240 was an all-new design or just a heavy modification. They bear a strong resemblance to each other in my opinion, but it could just be a result of Volvo trying to keep up a family look.

stickguy · December 2020

it was a heavy modification.

ab348 · December 2020

Most of the body parts were the same between the 140 and 240.

fintail · December 2020

Never even heard of it, and I always thought I was at least marginally up on 80s Ford stuff. That front spoiler looks like it would be toast after one light parking barrier bump. I suppose it would be a holy grail for period Ford nuts. And almost 10K, you could buy a reasonably equipped compact car for that then - although 3K of that was probably the phone and CD player.

explorerx4 said:
I have never seen one of these.

uplanderguy · December 2020

RE.: Toronado GT for sale at Hershey a few years back--I was thinking hard about it and I thought, "It was silver as I thought the blue 'eyebrow' stripes around the wheel openings seemed a bit odd; blue interior". I thought it had floor shifter but I simply can't be sure.

I googled "1970 Toronado GT Hershey" and this came up, mirroring my most-recent memory of the car. Carlisle is just down the road from Hershey and I am 99% certain this is the car we looked at. Sold for $5,610.

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/sc13/spring-carlisle/lots/r252-1970-oldsmobile-toronado-gt/589198

tjc78 · December 2020

explorerx4 said:
I have never seen one of these.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPTPM8-PLHY

Wow, I never have either. Pretty cool in an 80s way.

fintail · December 2020

Took the fintail out for a bit today, while at the store I spotted this oddball:

74 Catalina, steaming a bit as it was in the 20s and felt it. 400, the owner told me all about it as he saw me looking it over. he mentioned the turbine hubcaps were a not inexpensive option, and insisted on rolling the windows down to show me the hardtop look. Patina especially on exterior paint and roof, but apparently a ~90K mile survivor, all original finishes. It spent some time sitting outside, so it could use paint, owner says he'll probably do it next year once he finds some filler pieces for the rear bumper, as they are cracked. One really unusual option on this car, AC, and it has the fancy one with the wheel to select temperature, as I'd expect in a period Cadillac. Has to be rare on a Catalina. The car ran like new, just purred.

uplanderguy · December 2020

I haven't seen one around here in decades.

imidazol97 · December 2020

Beautiful Catalina!

Interesting about the automatic temp AC option on a low end model.

I hope owner is careful about the paint that is used. I see so many older cars with repaints using clearcoat and they end up with colors that are much "brighter" than the original color was, due to the newer paints.

andre1969 · December 2020

That '74 Catalina is pretty cool. I know that '74-76 B-body hardtop style took a lot of flack, but I think it's kinda cool. Sort of a combination of Colonade and true hardtop. I can't remember the last time I've seen one, either. While everybody's full-sized cars took a sales hit for '74, it seemed like Pontiac got hit worse than the other GM divisions. And, while there was a bit of a recovery for Pontiac, it was nowhere near on the scale of Chevy, Buick, or Olds. Plus, Pontiac's recovery was mostly in the Bonneville range. Catalina sales stayed low in the wake of the first oil embargo, and even downsizing did nothing for it. The '77 Catalina's sales were down just a bit from '76, and they continued to fall off for '78 and 79. And of course, 1980-81 speaks for itself, as Pontiac gave up on big cars entirely for '82. Even in Canada, where they let the Parisienne persist, it was a rebadged Chevy, rather than a "true" Pontiac.

tjc78 · December 2020

Nice blue on the Catalina. Not a bad looking car at all. May be the angle of the [non-permissible content removed] but looks to be sagging in the rear, that always bothers me.

andre1969 · December 2020

Wow, those automatic naughty-word censors catch everything these days, don't they? I had to laugh when the closed captioning my tv x'ed out this little scandal-in-the-making...

uplanderguy · December 2020

That reminds me, wife and I a couple years ago made a quick overnight trip to Jamestown, NY, hometown of Lucy and a museum is there; also, she is interred there. Pretty enjoyable although not many people visiting the museum that particular day; I think a lot of years have passed and Jamestown is off-the-beaten-track although in a geographically beautiful part of NY.

And just this morning, I saw a clip that looked like it was prepared for the visitor to Desilu studios; how the cameras worked, and Desi came out and spoke to the audience and then introduced the cast of "I Love Lucy". He saved Lucy for last and she came out, bowed, but did not go near him. She did look a tad older than in the earliest episodes, and I knew they were having issues later on.

fintail · December 2020

The Catalina owner remarked something like "these cars came around at the wrong time, the energy crisis made them obsolete overnight, end of an era" or something like that. An entire segment of cars became dinosaurs - my mom's T-bird was in that group. Catalina was pretty cool though, pleasing colors, and I liked the hubcaps. Still some style for what was a relatively basic car. Owner mentioned a couple other cars he had (I think a big block 73 Monte Carlo, maybe a Caprice), so not sure when it will be painted. I agree about some colors not looking right.

Thinking of that hardtop + colonnade bodystyle, when I was younger, an older lady antique dealer friend of my mom had an Olds like that, kind of a light yellow with matching interior, IIRC. I think maybe when I was still in high school, around 1994, her husband passed away, and she sold the "extra" cars (they also had an S10 and a Hornet Sportabout). The Olds was very clean, and she would have sold it to me for like $800, but I think she also remarked "it burns too much gas". She ended up keeping the Sportabout, which was in pristine condition, almost seemed like a new car. Last time I saw her, probably close to 10 years ago now (also since passed away), I think she had a Corolla.

It didn't seem to be sitting significantly low at the time, but maybe over time could have settled just a little. I remember when I was younger, remarking about an old Lincoln or Cadillac with the butt-dragging stance, and my dad remarked that it was the style of the car. Some do seem to have a weighed down look.

andre1969 · December 2020

The '71-76 GM big cars at least got a few good years in, before the oil embargo. I think Pontiac got hit harder than Olds, Buick and Chevy though, because they depended more on bigger 400 and 455 V8s, whereas Buick, Olds, and Chevy made more extensive use of their 350 engines.

Starting in 1970, Pontiac had started making a 350 standard on the Catalina. I don't know if this was an attempt to hold the line on prices and put more pressure on Chevy, or if GM was just trying to standardize things somewhat. I think for '70, Chevy started making the 350 as their standard V8 on big cars. While they actually had the 6-cyl standard, there were no more 307s or 327s being put in the big cars. For some reason, I'm thinking that in '69, part way through the model year, they dropped they phased out the 327 and replaced it with the 350?

They kept the 350 as the standard engine from '71-73, although I have a feeling most of them were ordered with a 400. But then they went back to making the 400 standard for '74...just in time for the oil shortage!

As for that car Fintail spotted in the wild looking like it's sitting low in back, it appears that way to me, as well. But, check out the image in this '74 Pontiac brochure!

tjc78 · December 2020

Wow, looks low in the back there too!

I never knew Pontiac had adjustable pedals in the 70s, wonder what the take rate was on that option?

andre1969 · December 2020

I had heard about the adjustable pedals in the past, but had forgotten about them.

Here's the page for the '74 Bonneville in the sales brochure. It definitely looks like the rear is at a more normal ride height, to me.

uplanderguy · December 2020

At my hometown dealer, where I about lived in the early '70's, most full-size Chevys in inventory were 350's. The Caprice had a standard 400-2barrel in at least '71 and '72 though, I feel quite certain of that. I'm thinking a 350 didn't make its way into a Caprice until '75, now that I think about it.

EDIT: Yeah, '74 brochure still shows 400 as standard in the Caprice. '75 brochure shows 350 standard on all full-sizes.

sda · December 2020

Dad's 73 Catalina 4dr sedan which replaced his 71 Catalina, had that exact interior shown, saddle morokide. Even though it was a bench seat, it seemed more comfortable than most.

xwesx · December 2020

andre1969 said:
Wow, those automatic naughty-word censors catch everything these days, don't they? I had to laugh when the closed captioning my tv x'ed out this little scandal-in-the-making...

Discrimination of the hearing-impaired. Typical.

fintail · December 2020

The car I saw had that same "Morrokide" upholstery pattern. I think it had maybe a seam/stitching coming undone, but had survived pretty well - back seat was fine.

uplanderguy · December 2020

I always remember Pontiac describing their vinyl interiors as Morrokide, but I never knew how to pronounce it. Was the accent on the first or second syllable, anybody know?

uplanderguy · December 2020

The '71-76 GM full-sizes were the first full-size cars I remember that didn't at least have a very large facelift after the first two model years. I remember being so excited when the '77's were set to appear, as it had been so long since all-new full-sizes.

andre1969 · December 2020

uplanderguy said:
I always remember Pontiac describing their vinyl interiors as Morrokide, but I never knew how to pronounce it. Was the accent on the first or second syllable, anybody know?

I never thought about that. I always put the accent on the first, and in my rural Maryland accent, it comes out kind of like "MAUra-kide"

As for the '71-76 big cars, I guess you could argue they were facelifted somewhat in '73, courtesy of the Fed's bumper regulations. But, you still knew that they were the same car, just bulkier, heavier, and thanks again to the government, slower than the year before.

But then, contrast that to the 1965-70 run. When I was younger, I used to think the '67 and '69 were all new cars. And the changes every two years were pretty significant. I discovered that the first time I needed suspension parts for my '67 Catalina. I think it was ball joints, but it's been ages now. Anyway, the only years that were compatible were 1967-68, and Pontiac-only. Chevy, Buick, and Olds suspensions were all different.

By '71-76, I have a feeling the suspensions were pretty much the same for the whole run, and maybe even the same across brands. I'd imagine there were heavier-duty components for wagons, and perhaps the C-body was a bit beefier than the B-body, but in general, everything was probably a lot more easy-swap.

From '65-70 though, they went through the effort to change the cars pretty substantially, even in the "off" years. For instance, while a '66 Chevy looks very close to a '65, I think just about all of the sheetmetal is different. And then the '67 is different enough that it almost looks "all new".

And in '69 GM, or at least Pontiac, did something to their suspensions to make the car handle like a whole different beast. At least, I could tell a radical difference between my '67 Catalina and a '69 Bonneville I used to have. Now, we're talking about 1994 era perceptions here, but about the best way to describe it was that the Bonneville handled like a new car, just a big one, whereas the Catalina handled about the way you'd expect an old car to. The '69 had front disc brakes, which would affect braking, but not handling I'd think. The '69 also had 15" rims versus 14" on the '67. And the steering wheel on the '69 was smaller, more "modern" feeling, while the '67 was probably larger, to accommodate cars that didn't have power steering. But, overall, the '69 was just a more pleasurable car to drive. Well, when it ran, that is.

uplanderguy · December 2020

Back then, in Chevyland, I considered the '67 and '69 to be 'all new', although I think that's not entirely the case. Every year on the '70's big cars, I kept waiting to see something 'all new', and it just never happened!

I used to like the '69 Chevy, but ab348 pointed out once here about the flared fenders making the tires and wheels look like they sat too far inboard, and I agree. Not a fan of the other '69 GM big cars, for looks. I missed the big fastback roofs of the '68's.

RE.: Steering wheel size--my Dad had a hard time adjusting to the small wheel on our '73 Nova, from our '67 Chevelle's big, hard wheel.

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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