Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

sda · April 2021

This is the handiest tool for light duty washing and it

not needing to be connected to a hose.

Michaell · April 2021

@graphicguy - congrats on the new TLX. Sharp looking combination, for sure.

The more I think about it, the more I'd like my next car to be white. Likely easier to find a non-black interior color to go with it.

28firefighter · April 2021

Really nice. Congrats @graphicguy !!

tjc78 · April 2021

sda said:
This is the handiest tool for light duty washing and it
not needing to be connected to a hose.

I was going to get one of those for the campground. So it’s worth it?

tjc78 · April 2021

@graphicguy
Love it!!!

I would do the exact combo!

There is a good chance if I was lucky enough to jump on the CarvanaVroMax buyouts I’d have one too.

My wife would not approve of the red interior, but would have to get over it.

corvette · April 2021

Better pic of Dad’s Ranger. I took it for a spin and it rides about the same as the Tundra, which is impressive given the shorter wheelbase. Much quieter and peppier than the Element. The back seat area may be smaller than the Element. Oddly, there’s a sticker on the engine specifying 5w30 oil. I thought Ford had gone to 5w20 on most of their mainstream engines.

corvette · April 2021

kyfdx said:

corvette said:

kyfdx said:

If you re-registered last month, and didn't have to pay property tax, then US Bank has indeed paid the 2021 property tax for you, and is asking for reimbursement. Pretty sure that they wouldn't let you register for this year, without the 2021 tax being paid.

Of course, there is no property tax for 2020, as you didn't have the car on January 1st of that year.

To be certain, I'd call or stop by the DMV to ascertain if property taxes have actually been paid for 2021. I wouldn't necessarily trust US Bank for the correct information.
I didn't re-register last month--registration and sticker both say they're good until November. I expect I'll get a reminder card then, or maybe they'll go ahead and send me a new sticker and registration, if US Bank has already paid.
In that case, I'd ignore the bill from US Bank. They are big on throwing in "estimated property tax". Even if they haven't paid it, and don't plan to. Your property tax is never due until you go in to re-register. Also, you may not get the reminder card. On my lease, they sent it to US Bank, which then forwarded it to me. I always paid the tax at the clerk's office.

Oops - I already paid it since it looked like an additional payment I'm supposed to make and I don't want it to cause issues with my credit. If they end up not forwarding to the tax collector, there will be formal complaints about that and any other skeletons I can find in US Bank's closet.

sda · April 2021

tjc78 said:

sda said:
This is the handiest tool for light duty washing and it
not needing to be connected to a hose.
I was going to get one of those for the campground. So it’s worth it?

It is and easy to use. You will want two batteries and a 5 gallon bucket or connect to a hose.

ab348 · April 2021

The red leather looks good!

explorerx4 · April 2021

@graphiticguy,
Congrats and that didn't take long!

@corvette,
I just checked all our little ford/lincoln turbo's and they all have 5w30 on the oil filler cap.

nyccarguy · April 2021

graphicguy said:
@nyccarguy ...good that the PIlot didn’t have a catastrophic and costly break down. Bad news, you should probably find a new independent mechanic. Glad it all worked out.

The more I look into this, the more I think it is actually my doing. Since my wife had her surgery (she’s getting better day by day), I have put 2,000 miles on the Pilot in a month. 2,000 hard miles. I remote started it almost every AM. Drove my 12 year old to middle school every day. Commuted in it, made deliveries in it. I like the way it drives in (S) mode...

explorerx4 · April 2021

@nyccarguy,
Maybe the oil wasn't up to the task.
Only way to be sure is to do it again.

roadburner · April 2021

graphicguy said:
The road is at an end.

First, I had to make up my mind whether I really wanted a wagon/suv type vehicle. I don’t haul enough cargo or people for a wagon/suv to be of much use. So, as nice as the Volvo XC40 and as interesting as the Ford Bronco Sport were, they’re off the list. As an aside, went back to the Ford store yesterday to make sure I was no longer interested in the Bronco Sport. Brought my lightning cable with me to listen to the B&O stereo. B&O should be ashamed of themselves putting their stamp on the Bronco’s stereo. Perhaps because of the Bronco’s design, B&O couldn’t acoustically do what they needed to do. But, for a premium stereo manufacturer, it’s an embarrassment in the Bronco.

The Supra....really fun car. Not a daily driver. If I had/wanted another vehicle to use in addition to the Supra, I’d be very serious about it, especially on some of the deals I’m seeing with them. Perhaps if I lived in So Cal or FL, it would work better, too. But, I don’t. So, that’s off my list.

Teslas.....I totally get their appeal. They’ve hit the button in the electric space. Plus, they’ve been in the space for so long, they have a pretty good handle on how and what their vehicles should and can do. Styling? I just can’t like it. Nothing against those who do, but every time I see one, I am underwhelmed vs other thoughts like “handsome” or “good looking”. I’m just not there yet on EVs. I do find them fascinating and would probably never worry about range anxiety. That said, charging stations in OH aren’t nearly as plentiful as they are in someplace like California. So, at least for now, I’m not a customer. But, that’s the direction the industry is going, so if I live long enough, I’ll have an EV gracing the GG estate sooner rather than later.

For grins, I also drove a Honda Accord Touring yesterday. Honda just continues to make good cars that are just sporty enough to be interesting. I know it competes with the likes of the Camry, Malibu, Sonata, etc. But, having driven most of its competition in one form or another, it’s easy to see why it’s so well liked. It’s quick. It’s comfy. It handles on the good-ish area for a family car. Just a nice overall vehicle. Styling? I’m ambivalent.

Re-tested both the 330i and 340i. I like both. 340i was knocking at the $60K door. That’s off the table. 330i...fun drive. It’s been a while since I had my last BMW, and they’ve changed pretty dramatically. Quick, handled well, dealer didn’t have any colors that excited me. And, for reasons I can’t quite put my fingers on, I wasn’t excited test driving it. Yes, it had the Whiz-Bang digital dash that’s popular these days. The ones I drove did not have the sports seats, so not good-not bad, pretty mediocre. Again, handled well, braked well, was plenty fast.

But.......

Test drove the TLX A-Spec yesterday. Acuras have always “floated my boat”. I like the way they look. I like their tech. I like the way they drive. I like they’re not expensive to maintain. The key, is the Type-S worth waiting for? Plus, will it be over the $50K limit I’ve set? Said it before, but it is likely to be very close to the driving dynamics of the Stinger GT, which I just sold.

So, is the new TLX an Accord clone? They feel like two different cars. The new TLX is much more polished. They’ve done wonders with the new SH-AWD system. It rotates in corners and sweepers like it has no limits. I would imagine once you hit those limits, things will get really hairy, really quickly, though. LOVE the way it handles. It’s not as fast as the Stinger....not even close. But, it is quick. Butt-o-meter says high 5s-low 6s 0-60. That’s not @roadburner fast. But, good for just about anything I want. Seats were just wonderful. Supportive, but not rock hard. They upgraded just about everything in the car. Materials are much better. They were always top of class in build quality. The new one’s no different.

I thought the ELS stereo in my old TLX was wonderful, the one in the new TLX (ELS 3D) is fantastic....once again, the best stereo I’ve heard in any car, at any price. Brakes are strong and linear.

You’d never know they’re brake by wire.

See where this is headed?

Would the S-Type make me regret not waiting? Given I just sold the Stinger, I doubt it. I’ve worked with the Acura dealer enough (and the same GM, SM and sales person) through the years, the deal is easy. It’s the same deal I always make.....quick, simple, they sell a car, I buy a car, no one gets hurt. No one goes home thinking they got the shaft. It’s a good deal.

I bought it.

Pics to follow!

Well, that long winded diatribe was cathartic!

Congratulations!

graphicguy · April 2021

sda said:

sda said:

graphicguy said:
Of course, red interior.....

That is sooo nice! I really like those. Enjoy!
The just washed TL says looking at you kid, TLX. You do your family proud!

Digging that! That gen was the first Acura I bought!

roadburner · April 2021

Random thoughts...
I pointed out a TLX to my wife yesterday; it’s a very attractive car.
The 330i is nice but for me it’s just not that entertaining. The M340i is a hoot but not enough of one for me to overlook the bulk.
What I really like about the M235i is that it’s a sedate cruiser when you want it and a reasonably quick corner carver with the push of a button and a flick of the shift lever.
Prices on M2 Comps are just crazy; there’s a price delta of $8k to $10k going from a 2018 base to a 2019 Comp.
Still considering a Supra; the 2.0 is priced right but otherwise uninspiring. Right now the 3.0 Premiums are priced around $49k- just about splitting the difference because an M2 and an M2 Comp. I hate looking at the cheap looking(and un-heated) steering wheel.
I found an interestingly optioned 440i; Tanzanite Blue/Black, M Sport, THP, MPPSK- I’d at least like to take it for a spin, but it’s in Texas...

rayainsw · April 2021

graphicguy -
Congrats !
- Ray
Stuck in my lease for another few months...

stickguy · April 2021

Nice TLX. Seems to be the same color as our RDX, and the interior is very close to the same. Just needed the brown interior to be a sedan version of our car. My wife, would never go for the red interior.

I pointed out an F150 at Target, configured the way I would get it (I believe the 6.5 bed and the cab and a half with clamshell doors). It was still a barge and overflowing a parking spot. She commented that it would never fit in the garage, which I already knew. I mentioned the Santa Cruz as being more practical, and she asked if it was the ugly car I sent her a link to the other day (it was!). Turns out she just doesn't like car/truck combos (not sure which other ones she ever saw though).

The Maverick, that at least looks like a real truck. But we shall see.

I did point out that it was good that the new car wasn't for her, and she liked the one she currently has.

qbrozen · April 2021

Couple of updates.
1. When the Finance gal at the chevy dealer told me they made my first payment for me due to all the paperwork mixup. I thought she was just hyping up the fact that I rolled the first payment into the other 38. Opened my new bill to find that they actually paid the SECOND payment. So now I have just 37 @$314 ea. Wow. I have never gotten this level of service from any dealer and would NEVER have expected a Chevy dealer to be the one to do it.
2. Took apart and reassembled the Benz yet again today. The codes stayed on the same side, so it is not the $600 phaser. Only thing left I can possibly think of is the crank position sensor. Read up on the location and eventually managed to find it and remove it completely by feel since it is in a place not accessible to human eyes.

laurasdada · April 2021

GG, congrats. Still have a soft spot in my heart for my '05 Abyss Blue TL. Helps me to know that I survived 6.5 years of a dark blue colored car as related to the dark blue A7.

Finally put gas in the Galactica. Good news is that the price at Costco for PUG was $2.80, down .04 since I last filled up (5 weeks ago?). Rounding the gallons of dino the A7 swallowed to 7.5 (gauge was reading ~3/8 full), averaged 55.33 mpg for the 415 miles I've driven since the moment of insanity that led me to purchase the beast. Started the day with 31 miles of nuclear power, at 24.5 the dino motor kicked in.

A7 sunroof/deflector does a much better job of managing airflow than the Jag, actually drove on the highway at speed with the SR open, and I didn't have to blast the music. Still breaking it in, but look forward to some harder acceleration soon; it's a beast but it can get up and go (from what I've read, and test drive). As mentioned, though, a corner with too much alacrity will introduce you to the concept of understeer, bigly, in my brief experience.

Still not as much "fun" to drive as the Jag, but enjoying in a different manner. The tech, interior fit and finish, comfort and uniqueness keeping me happy for now. I've only seen one other current version A7 since I bought.

So, on we go.

oldfarmer50 · April 2021

graphicguy said:
Thanks, all. Yeah.....I’m pretty predictable. We like what we like.

Thought about getting the blue with red interior. But, Acura’s pearlescent white is so nice....

Nice, you can always go home again.

laurasdada · April 2021

The TLX looks good, muscular.

oldfarmer50 · April 2021

nyccarguy said:

graphicguy said:
@nyccarguy ...good that the PIlot didn’t have a catastrophic and costly break down. Bad news, you should probably find a new independent mechanic. Glad it all worked out.
The more I look into this, the more I think it is actually my doing. Since my wife had her surgery (she’s getting better day by day), I have put 2,000 miles on the Pilot in a month. 2,000 hard miles. I remote started it almost every AM. Drove my 12 year old to middle school every day. Commuted in it, made deliveries in it. I like the way it drives in (S) mode...

It wouldn’t use that kind of oil in 2k miles would it?

corvette · April 2021

One neat thing I noticed about the Ranger: It has a power locking tailgate (although there's no lift assistance like there is with the Tundra), and also a lock for the spare tire. Power up and down on the driver's window only. It looks like the next higher option package on the XLT would have included remote start and heated cloth seats, which are both features I would appreciate. Truthfully, if I were buying one, I'd prefer a Lariat, to get the LED headlights. The autostop function was extremely unobtrusive. My dad thinks it is smoother than the one in their Audi Q5. There is a button to disable it, which I thought was something that was being regulated out of existence by the EPA, but I guess not.

oldfarmer50 · April 2021

qbrozen said:
Couple of updates.
1. When the Finance gal at the chevy dealer told me they made my first payment for me due to all the paperwork mixup. I thought she was just hyping up the fact that I rolled the first payment into the other 38. Opened my new bill to find that they actually paid the SECOND payment. So now I have just 37 @$314 ea. Wow. I have never gotten this level of service from any dealer and would NEVER have expected a Chevy dealer to be the one to do it.
2. Took apart and reassembled the Benz yet again today. The codes stayed on the same side, so it is not the $600 phaser. Only thing left I can possibly think of is the crank position sensor. Read up on the location and eventually managed to find it and remove it completely by feel since it is in a place not accessible to human eyes.

I thought you sent the MB to the shop because it was being inscrutable?

nyccarguy · April 2021

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

graphicguy said:
@nyccarguy ...good that the PIlot didn’t have a catastrophic and costly break down. Bad news, you should probably find a new independent mechanic. Glad it all worked out.
The more I look into this, the more I think it is actually my doing. Since my wife had her surgery (she’s getting better day by day), I have put 2,000 miles on the Pilot in a month. 2,000 hard miles. I remote started it almost every AM. Drove my 12 year old to middle school every day. Commuted in it, made deliveries in it. I like the way it drives in (S) mode...
It wouldn’t use that kind of oil in 2k miles would it?

I last had the oil changed at 63,600 miles. At the time it went into limp mode, the Pilot had 67,500. 2,000 which were put on by me. My wife had put about 2K on before I took it for the month.

explorerx4 · April 2021

@corvette,
Tailgate power locking a feature is great because tailgate theft is a big deal.

corvette · April 2021

explorerx4 said:
@corvette,
Tailgate power locking a feature is great because tailgate theft is a big deal.

The Ranger is garaged, so much less likely to happen, but still nice to have. No push button start or number keypad on it.

explorerx4 · April 2021

@corvette,
Tailgate theft not too likely to happen in a garage, but in a parking lot much more likely.

tjc78 · April 2021

I’ll have nice shiny tires that won’t look greasy. Found an Ardex distributor at our campground.

Best stuff you can buy. It’s usually only available for professionals.

corvette · April 2021

@tjc78 - nice! The first Altima I had, the dealer had fully detailed the engine bay. Not sure what products they used, but the rubber and plastic stayed perfectly shiny for the two or three years I owned that car, with just an occasional rinse.

roadburner · April 2021

I'm seriously thinking about this 440i. It's got decent power and M Adaptive suspension, plus all the bells and whistles- and only 7,400 miles(!) on the clock. The dealer is next to DFW. I've driven Dallas to home in one day, I can do it again

tjc78 · April 2021

That’s sharp! Love the color.

qbrozen · April 2021

oldfarmer50 said:

qbrozen said:
Couple of updates.
1. When the Finance gal at the chevy dealer told me they made my first payment for me due to all the paperwork mixup. I thought she was just hyping up the fact that I rolled the first payment into the other 38. Opened my new bill to find that they actually paid the SECOND payment. So now I have just 37 @$314 ea. Wow. I have never gotten this level of service from any dealer and would NEVER have expected a Chevy dealer to be the one to do it.
2. Took apart and reassembled the Benz yet again today. The codes stayed on the same side, so it is not the $600 phaser. Only thing left I can possibly think of is the crank position sensor. Read up on the location and eventually managed to find it and remove it completely by feel since it is in a place not accessible to human eyes.
I thought you sent the MB to the shop because it was being inscrutable?

I'm being stubborn.

roadburner · April 2021

tjc78 said:
That’s sharp! Love the color.

It's a somewhat uncommon BMW Individual color. What I really like is the power boost coupled with the throaty exhaust note combined with the Track Handling Package.

benjaminh · April 2021

graphicguy said:
Of course, red interior....

Congrats on the car! Great color combo. I'd be interested to hear more driving impressions at some point.

Hey folks. I've been busy with work and other stuff. But good to see that people are still checking out cars and trade-in values.

I recently had an email exchange with the local Volvo dealer about an S60, which would lease for somewhere around $410 a month + TTL with the Volvo loyalty incentive. But since I lack that incentive I decided it was too much.

sda · April 2021

benjaminh said:

graphicguy said:
Of course, red interior....

Congrats on the car! Great color combo. I'd be interested to hear more driving impressions at some point.

Hey folks. I've been busy with work and other stuff. But good to see that people are still checking out cars and trade-in values.

I recently had an email exchange with the local Volvo dealer about an S60, which would lease for somewhere around $410 a month + TTL with the Volvo loyalty incentive. But since I lack that incentive I decided it was too much.

Great to hear from you, you’ve been missed.

Sandman6472 · April 2021

OF50, most of our drivers have also gotten their vaccines but my lead, he just turned 38, is not quite ready to get his. Have no reason why but a couple of others keep questioning him as to why as think they also want to go back to 4/vehicle if possible. Right now, we still have about 6 Ford Transit vans going out plus a couple of the Chevy's. Of course, the Ford's are taken first and there's some unfair hanky panky going on to shut out a couple of teams, one being ours. Last Wednesday though, big accident on the way to work. Since I always leave early to eat breakfast out, I'm good. A bunch of the others are running late, as is my lead, so he texts me to go sign for the van and the gas card. Go in and see a Ford key & a Chevy key. I take the Ford key. Don't ya know later in the day, the last one in who got the Chevy key came over to me and wanted to know why I took it? I said to him, "are you kidding" and walked away...was totally shocked! But not surprised since some of the other leads take ownership it seems of the vans they usually get which of course is nonsense. One guy who likes one of the Chevy vans tried to get my lead to switch again Friday, he did it once already and this time said no. Don't quite understand how grown men, most in their seventies, are playing these games just to get a particular vehicle!
Just am hoping that we also go back to more folks per van soon so no more nonsense. And also hope that there will be no more going home at 1:15 like we did last Friday. But, we'll just have to see how things go. This chip problem should be coming to and hopefully in the near future.

breld · April 2021

@roadburner - that 440i is sharp. The color really sets it apart - is that standard on any model?

Lots of 440i’s out there, but so few equipped like that and with those miles. Definitely worth a trip if you decide it’s worth it.

Sandman6472 · April 2021

Will probably pass on going to see that HR-V in the morning as starting to feel that it just might be a bit under powered for my needs. I know the audio system will be a let down as it doesn't have a sub-woofer so won't be as powerful as I'm used to. The Fender system in the Golf is better than I had expected to be honest. Never have it set over the halfway position as it's loud enough and very clear with zero distortion. Have been very pleased with it honestly and not sure I want to get a newer vehicle where I need to go see the audio guy to get the sound where it needs to be. Right now, the Golf is behaving itself so maybe best to just let things be and wait till the Taos shows up.
Have also decided to put off getting a new iPhone 12 for the time being. Not much 5G areas down here anyways and once the new 13 model comes out in October, prices on the 12 will go down anyways. Waiting is probally the best way to go now unless one drops in my lap for a ridiculously crazy asking price. Not expecting that to happen but will make a move if the opportunity presents itself!

roadburner · April 2021

breld said:
@roadburner - that 440i is sharp. The color really sets it apart - is that standard on any model?

Lots of 440i’s out there, but so few equipped like that and with those miles. Definitely worth a trip if you decide it’s worth it.

The color is not standard; I think it was either a $3,000 or $5,000 upcharge. When one of the new car managers left my dealer he ordered an optioned up 440i in that color that topped out at $74,000 if I recall as a "present" to the GM.

We thought it would need 10 pounds of plastic explosive to move it over the curb, but one Saturday a guy comes in and buys a Protonic Red Edition i8; he spies the 440i and decides to buy it for his wife while he's at it. He paid MSRP for both, never knowing we would have come down thousands on the 440i to get it out of the showroom...

explorerx4 · April 2021

@tjc78.
We need to see what the tires look like after treatment.
I use Adams VRT.

benjaminh · April 2021

The resale values because of the chip shortage and everything else seem impressive. Three years ago we got for my wife a 2018 CR-V EX AWD for a negotiated price of about 27.4. At the Edmunds site last night I put the vin and other info into the appraisal app....

https://www.edmunds.com/appraisal/

From that it came out with an offer from Carmax for $23,800. So we've had the car for almost three years, driven it about 22,000 miles, and if that offer pans out the car has only lost about $3600 from what we paid for it. That's a depreciation of only about $1200 a year, or about hundred bucks a month.

I asked my wife if there's something she'd like to trade the car in for, and it seems the only thing that might interest her is a new CR-V hybrid. A local dealer has one listed for about $6k more than the trade in offer, and since that's before negotiation we might be able to do better than that. We'd never make back that money from gas savings, since it only saves about $300 or so a year over the regular CR-V, but it would be an all-new car. I'm only slightly concerned about the oil dilution issue on the Honda 1.5T, but the hybrid is a non-turbo Atkinson cycle engine with port injection. The hybrid ex also throws in three features aren't on the regular ex—full LED headlights and foglights, memory seat, and a better stereo with 2 more speakers. Not sure if that's worth it to us for 6k over what we've got, but we're thinking about it.

au1994 · April 2021

Love the color combo @graphicguy. My F30 was the same.

I completely get the attraction to the TLX, its a great bang for the buck and seems to straddle the sport/luxury line very well.

venture · April 2021

roadburner said:
I'm seriously thinking about this 440i. It's got decent power and M Adaptive suspension, plus all the bells and whistles- and only 7,400 miles(!) on the clock. The dealer is next to DFW. I've driven Dallas to home in one day, I can do it again

You won't sneak up on anybody driving that.

venture · April 2021

@graphicguy

Wow. Nice. Good choice.

kyfdx · April 2021

nyccarguy said:

oldfarmer50 said:

nyccarguy said:

graphicguy said:
@nyccarguy ...good that the PIlot didn’t have a catastrophic and costly break down. Bad news, you should probably find a new independent mechanic. Glad it all worked out.
The more I look into this, the more I think it is actually my doing. Since my wife had her surgery (she’s getting better day by day), I have put 2,000 miles on the Pilot in a month. 2,000 hard miles. I remote started it almost every AM. Drove my 12 year old to middle school every day. Commuted in it, made deliveries in it. I like the way it drives in (S) mode...
It wouldn’t use that kind of oil in 2k miles would it?
I last had the oil changed at 63,600 miles. At the time it went into limp mode, the Pilot had 67,500. 2,000 which were put on by me. My wife had put about 2K on before I took it for the month.

Either there was a leak... or, the guy that did the last oil change didn't put enough in. I don't think there are any other choices.

Also, you can't depend on a low oil pressure warning. You might lose 80% of your oil before that comes on. It doesn't measure oil level.

tjc78 · April 2021

benjaminh said:

graphicguy said:
Of course, red interior....

Congrats on the car! Great color combo. I'd be interested to hear more driving impressions at some point.

Hey folks. I've been busy with work and other stuff. But good to see that people are still checking out cars and trade-in values.

I recently had an email exchange with the local Volvo dealer about an S60, which would lease for somewhere around $410 a month + TTL with the Volvo loyalty incentive. But since I lack that incentive I decided it was too much.

What trim and specs on the S60?

Mine was a tick over 50K (T6 Inscription) and w/o loyalty I’m at $465 with 6.625% NJ tax (NJ taxes whole lease) with just first DAS 36/10

tjc78 · April 2021

explorerx4 said:
@tjc78.
We need to see what the tires look like after treatment.
I use Adams VRT.

Will do. May not be this week because I’m in the middle of building a monster swing set club house for the kids.

dad23 · April 2021

Congrats @graphicguy, enjoy the new ride!

graphicguy · April 2021

roadburner said:
I'm seriously thinking about this 440i. It's got decent power and M Adaptive suspension, plus all the bells and whistles- and only 7,400 miles(!) on the clock. The dealer is next to DFW. I've driven Dallas to home in one day, I can do it again

Like it...a LOT! I’ve actually been to that dealership before. Good folks. One of their Infiniti GMs used to post here a long time ago. Wonder if he’s still with their dealership group?

Shopped their BMW store while I was doing some work in Ft Worth and had an evening with nothing to do except look at cars just for Ss and Gs!

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