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Dodge Dakota - Quad Cab
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Comments
Is this problem intermittent?
Does it appear to be more noticeable in certain temperature ranges?
If the heater control is moved to the defrost mode, does the idle quality improve?
If you answer "yes" to all of the above, a likely suspect would be spark plugs.
If you answered "yes' to the last two only, I would suspect contamination build up at the idle air port in the Throttlebody. You might try some fuel injector cleaner, but removing the Idle Air Control Motor and manually cleaning the port is more effective.
There could be a computer problem, but I think it's less likely to be the issue. If spark plugs and the idle air port are not the problem, and you ran a few tanks of fuel injector cleaner through the engine, you might have a lazy or defective fuel injector.
Best regards,
Dusty
Bookitty
He agreed with me on either worn spark plugs or idle air port/motor being the most likely causes. He also said that on a few the PCV valve was the cure for rough idle. These were all winter-time complaints and they were accompanied by a slight sludge build up around the PCV valve. He also said to check the air filter. He has found two that were caused by the filter even though they looked fairly clean.
I should state that I had a intermittent bumpy idle that seem to start at around 7500 miles. It was a very slight thing and not always noticeable. It was intermittent and went away by going into the defrost mode. This raises the idle speed slightly by energizing the idle air motor and opening the idle air port. There were some days that I thought it idled just like it did when new, which was like glass.
I tried running some fuel injector cleaner through it, but could not detect any difference. I removed some of the plugs and other than being .002-.003 over the gap setting they looked fine. I replaced the plugs with Bosch 4418 Platinum+4s and for three days the 4.7 idled like glass.
But the intermittent idle came back, although I think it was still improved. Now at 18,000+ miles it idles fine and has done so for the last 7,000 miles or so.
Best regards,
Dusty
Yes, I noticed that the rough idle occured on mine when the idle speeed dropped below around 600 RPM. I am not sure why it drops that low at times. But in the last few months it has not repeated this symptom at all and idles very smoothly even at 500 RPM.
This could be caused by a marginal idle air port motor. I have been told that removing the motor and cleaning the port area solves this problem for a long time.
Raybo, there's nothing to say that you don't have a vacuum leak or something else going on that could cause a rough idle. I would start with the simply things, if you are going to try to tackle this yourself. After the air filter, I would try cleaning the idle air port, then plugs, I guess.
Regards,
Dusty
I'll keep you posted as I try different things to cure this rough idle. You guys are great!
Ray
If you are talking about a vehicle equipped with a Holley 2 bbl with a sticky choke, bad accel. pump, and worn jets, yes, this is indeed normal.
But on a modern computer controlled engine, its not. I have driven many other FI vehicles, including mopars, and none have a rough idle like this.
As I said, there is a PCM flash that fixes the rough idle and the stall after a cold start. I had the same thing and by golly on the third flash, Chrysler got it right.
It's realy just bucket seats with a center section
and arm rest/storage,,right? Has anyone wanted to
or has swapped it out with a center console from
a "bucket seat" model?
I've got taupe color interior, anyone want to trade?
Mick
trialsmm@hotmail.com
I've probably worn this "excuse" out by now but it has kept my wife from ever driving the truck.
Shall I remind everyone about the "learning" aspect of the ECU? As the weather gets cooler, the ECU must relearn how to idle under the new ambient temps.
I will leave it up to curious readers to review past Dakota forum entries and read about my "handy dandy quick learning" process. I must have typed into these pages at least 3 times since the year 2000.
HINT: This is a maintenance issue so look in the Dakota Maintainance forum.
When he took it in for service they diagnoised the problem to the aftermarket filter he had installed. It appears that the oil from the filter contaminated a sensor in the fuel system. Since the repair it has run fine.
Dusty
Is this a one way thing, as in only as it gets colder, or should I expect it to do it when it gets warmer too. Mine has done it every now and then since a couple hundred Kms off the lot 7500 Kms ago. It's only started to get what I would consider colder around here the last couple weeks except for maybe a day or two at the first of November (when it was at the 5000 Km mark). Other than that, the temps have been quite steady in the mid teens to the mid twenties celcius and it's done it all along.
I was chalking the occasional rough idle up to the learning curve of the ECU, which I thought it would be done learning after 7500 Kms. I guess, the truck hasn't experienced -30 temps yet, so it hasn't finished learning yet.
If this happens every time the temperature swings, then I guess I should expect it to happen more frequently over the next six months because the temps swing from quite warm to very cold on a weekly or biweekly (and sometimes daily) basis around here from December onward.
I'll be sure to check out your handy-dandy quick learner process in the meantime.
It is this 'fudge factor' that includes a 'map' of what worked well the when specific criteria were met. (such as ambient temp)
The problem with this design is that it ends up simply 'averaging' a whole bunch of stuff together to get to the 'fudge factor' this usually works well.. until one of the inputs has a large swing. (such as ambient temp swings that you get in the north)
My Dakota is the first fuel-injected vehicle I have ever owned that has troubles idling. There is NO EXCUSE for this.
Personally, I feel that Dodge needs to hire some engineers that can come up with better algorythim for the ECUs.
Luckally, my engineering background allowed me to get around this poor design by "forcing" the ECU to relearn the idle.
I have been toying with some other ideas to improve the idle quality of my Dakota.. but I have little time to spend on it.
Were you aware that disconecting the battery for over 10 minutes will ERASE all the fudge-factors and it will have to relearn how to run all over again? If you have the automatic xmission, the shifting will get all mixed up too. (until it relearns your driving habits.)
But in closed loop various sensors are supplying input data to adjust injector pulse width, ignition timing, and idle air port opening to control idle, as well as the air-fuel ratio for the engine through its operating range.
Now most systems I'm familar with operates in open loop at initial start to some predetermined point in operating temperature. After a certain temperature is reached the system goes into closed loop for cruising and idle speeds. Most systems do switch to open loop for acceration, but back again when a cruise condition is reached.
If your explaination is correct I can see how the PCM effects the idle from initial start through the warm-up period, but I don't see an PCM influence on a warm idle problem unless it is getting false or non-calibrated inputs from any number of sensors.
Thoughts?
Best regards,
Dusty
The "closed loop" you are refering to is when the exhaust o2 sensors are "looped back" to determine running conditions for the least emmissions.
I guess, now that I think about it... in the end it is the desire to control EMMISSIONS that are making the idle so crappy at times.
Bookitty
You are correct however in your stance that a FI vehicle should not run like this. I consider myself somewhat of an expert in this area due to experience with PCM flashes and ambient temperatures. It was not an experience that I vounteered for however!
I don't think its a question of Dodge having less than stellar engineers. Consider the budgets foisted upon them by the finance people along with rushed development cycles and its a wonder that your dodge or any dodge for that matter runs properly at all.
That is one main reason I left the Dodge family......I resented performing unpaid duties as a development engineer.
Quote from bpeebles"
"How come this comes up every year about this time? Gee, I wonder.
Shall I remind everyone about the "learning" aspect of the ECU? As the weather gets cooler, the ECU must relearn how to idle under the new ambient temps.
I will leave it up to curious readers to review past Dakota forum entries and read about my "handy dandy quick learning" process. I must have typed into these pages at least 3 times since the year 2000."
Funny how Dodge PCM has to "learn" changes in climate and for the driver to have to put up with a lousy running engine. The asian automakers don't seem to have this problem
Would you beleive, as a kid, I used to disassemble -n- reassemble an ol' rochester carberator for fun?
By the time I was about 12 years old, everyone in the neighborhood would bring their small-engined appliences to me for repair.
My first vehicle was a 3-cylinder 2-stroke motorcycle. The thing has 3 points, 3 carberators, 3 exhaust systems....etc It took some skill to tune all 3 cylinders to be spot-on... but when it was tuned properly it would out-accellerate bikes with TWICE the displacement.
When Vechicles first started with the fuel-injection, they were mostly junk. (a couple squiters in a disabled carberotor body)
Modern engines are very different. Since the Federal government mandated OBD-II in all vehicles. It is actually EASIER to tune them.
A laptop computer and the right software can plug right in to the OBD-II interface.
The problem is that many of todays "MECHANICS" are not prepared for this "dualisity" of their jobs. (part Mechanic and part software wizzard)
Quite often, if the onboard computer does not show a problem, they are totally lost.
That seems to be right were I come in. I am very well versed in IC engines and am a computer programmer by trade. (ref my profile 8-)
I stand fast to my assertation that AFTER REACHING OPERATING TEMP.. the engine has 'fudge factors' that are stored in memory and updated with an averaging algorythim based on recient ambient temps.
Cold-start idle issues should be approached by removing and cleaning the TB. This includes the IAC motor.
In over 50,000 miles, my 4.7L V8 has always idled acceptably when in open-loop mode. One could also turn on the AC to gain a 50 or so RPMs in the idle too. (in cold wether the AC compressor should not come on ... according to the manual)
.. however, a re-learnin' may be in the future, once the weather improves.
I've been lurking for a bit, thanks all for the good info.
I figured I'd mention this to see if anyone else out there encountered a similar situation. I like manual trannys in my vehicles. However, it looks like the great majority of folks want automatics in their vehicles. As a result, it appears that a car/truck with a manual is a liability when it's time to trade it in. Any thoughts/opinions on this would be appreciated.
Get what you want. Why pay for somthing you dont really want betting that some future "trade in value" will be more. That is a pretty lame reason to pay for an option. Are you buying a vehicle as an INVESTMENT or for TRANSPORTATION?
Another way to look at it....
Use the edmunds "Used Car Appraiser" with and without the auto tranny.
I just ran my 2000 Dak thru the "Used Car Appraiser" and found that the auto Xmission would be worth about $300-$400. I am glad I did not pay the Xtra $800 for one.
The "lower resale" comment for manual transmissions is true, but as Bpeebles points out so is the initial cost. The true resale value is the differential between what was paid and what can be returned in cash value. I ran several combinations of Dakota through the Kelly Used Car on-line and pretty much got the same result as Bpeebles.
There is one disadvantage when trading in most manual transmission equiped vehicles, and it's the real reason why new car dealers talk them down on trade-in. The turnaround time is longer due to the fact that most people want an automatic transmission when looking for a vehicle. This means the marketability is lower and hence they have a tendency to sit longer on the lot.
For this reason and this reason alone you may be more likely to get a low-ball offer on a manual, all other things being equal. This is especially true the newer the vehicle is because manual transmission trucks in the higher used price ranges are not as marketable as less expensive ones. A $4995 used Dakota with a manual has a lot more marketability, either to people looking for a truck as a second or third vehicle driven for specific purposes, or to the more youthful person who is either getting their first vehicle and often prefers a manual.
Best regards,
Dusty
Bookitty
Ron
Bests,
Dusty
My concern is that when I'm in 4W-Hi or Lo slogging along, the engine idle automatically increases from the normal (2W - road) 700 up to about 1,500 rpms. I have to modulate my forward speed by working the clutch (2000, 4.7L, 5sp). While under warranty (pre-36K), I did get the PCM flash to fix the stalling problem but never did any real "dirt-roading" until 40K-50K. This is the second hunting season that I've experienced high engine idle when I want to go "real" slow.
Preliminary discussions with a service manager has not given me any comfort that they have a clue other than $. Any ideas?
I am not sure about your state but here in Vermont, all suspension parts are inspected annually. It is part of the manditory "Vermont State Inspection" and includes exhaust, emmissions and other items.
I have replaced ONE upper balljoint on my 2000 Dakota. I used a MOOG brand balljoint that has a grease fitting. I have been keeping an eye on the other UBJ and it has not been an issue.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I noticed the day I bought my 2003 that the grease seals were flat as if there wasn't a drop of grease in them. It wouldn't surprise me if most of the failures were the result of insufficient lubrication from day one.
After 36,000 miles I plan on installing zerks so I can grease them. Of course with my luck, the damage may already be done.
Dusty
Thanks,
Eric
Depending on the year, of course, Dodge has used various rotor and pad suppliers and the quality did vary. This is not a unique situation in the industry. If you visit any of the truck and SUV forums you'll find examples of similar complaints.
Now, that being said, there are aftermarket rotors that are of better quality. The question is, are they worth it. Depending on your particular driving that may in fact be the case. As to pads, I've heard mixed results from folks who have used various brands, and that includes ceramics. Although some are advertised as "liftime guarantee," not everybody appears to be happy with them for various reasons.
Ceramics will give you a lot less brake dust but some claim that stopping distances are increased. This could be specific to the model vehicle (I've heard Suburbans and GM pickups don't seem to like them).
I have looked at Powerslots and they look like a very well made rotor. I was impressed with the machining and finish quality. I know a fellow who uses them on his '99 Dakota with factory pads and he seems to be very pleased.
Best regards,
Dusty