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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    edited October 2010
    Loosh,

    My preference in AWD is full-time unit, with a slight rear bias default power bias, say around 40/60, front/rear, or so. That's the front/rear power split that BMW and Audi use on their AWD models. If it sends more power fore and aft as needed, then that's frosting on the cake. I just want a "proactive" full-time unit, and not a "reactive" on-demand unit.

    I really don't care so much if it's a viscous clutch, planetary gear, or mutli plate design—as long as it's full-time.

    Bob
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    So you're happy with all of subaru systems? I like rowing my own gears, but the mpg difference between the 6mt and cvt is compelling...but also I am a fan of the 50/50 split in my current car
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    There's probably a comparison of various AWD systems on wikipedia. Here's my take:

    There's actually no clutch in viscous coupling systems like most Subaru's manual transmission vehicles use. It is reasonably effective but reacts slowly because a significant amount of slippage needs to occur before the fluid heats up, expands, and thus binds the front and rear driveshafts. However, it is very cheap.

    A transfer case with gears in it reacts faster, but is heavier, makes more noise, and (here it comes) is more costly. But this is exactly what is used in the STI's DCCD and the very similar system used by Mitsubishi in their SUVs and the Lancer Evo.

    The multi-plate clutch packs that automatic transmission Subarus use is fast and in theory could be powerful, but Subaru has spec'ed relatively unimpressive default torque split and a relatively low limit on the maximum torque that can be applied.

    Regarding MT vs CVT vs sequential manual vs traditional automatic...

    I don't share the "I gotta have a clutch pedal" mentality that is very common among some (most?) auto enthusiasts. (You can readily see this by reading Autoblog for a few months.)

    I'll take a dual-clutch sequential, please. They're smooth enough at low speeds; compare not to a slushbox traditional automatic, but instead to your average MT driver. Single clutch however... what a rough ride.
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    I drove a TDi Golf and a GTi and I agree, the DSG is great. I drove an OB with CVT and that changed my opinion of CVT, it was impressive. I feel like I'm going to have to sacrifice our emphasis on handling and stopping power next go around....My ideal next car honestly would be a 325xi wagon- great handling, decent power, huge brakes, perfect size for me and AWD. But not without a lottery ticket.

    So now my list is:
    Elantra Touring (right-sized, allegedly tossable)
    Jetta Wagon (right szed, allegedly tossable, may drive me crazy with niggles)
    3-series wagon with around 40k on it (6MT, right sized, tossable, stops like crazy. But do I want a car with that many miles on it)

    and Outback. (useful, AWD, good mpg for what it is, but nowhere near as tossable as it used to be)

    My ideal Subaru was made for one year- 2.5GT wagon with a manual. Bad timing!
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    If you're considering a used Bimmer, why not try to find a used wagon GT? We had the manual up here for a couple of years iirc.
    It's true, the new options of DSG or CVT are great when they work well. I was impressed with the CVT in the Legacy, it made the engine feel more powerful and delivers great FE. Sacrilege though it might be, I've always thought that a CVT would be the perfect tranny for a turbo. Think about it, when cruising keep the engine entirely off boost and then instantly shift to optimal high rev ratio for boost when you stomp it. We WRX owners know where on the rev range the meat of the engine's performance comes, a tranny that could always keep it there would be scary quick.
    How does the DSG in the VW do at very low speeds? I know that some early DSGs had been criticised for being jerky at parking speed.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I agree, but finding a used Legacy 2.5GT wagon, with a manual, will be tough.

    Bob
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    and Outback. (useful, AWD, good mpg for what it is, but nowhere near as tossable as it used to be

    But don't forget the Forester XT (while it is still available). More room than that Legacy wagon had, decent handling, good styling, only fair fuel economy paired with very good performance.

    With the coming required fuel economy, I suspect the XT's days are numbered. I'm glad I bought a 2010. The new 2011 Touring model XT adds thousands over the price for the 2010 Limited. That may be deliberate to make as much profit as possible before the end of the run.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe an XTi if the rumors are true...
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Yea they're getting old too. Most are over the 50k mark now.
    I guess I should add a 5mt forester to the list
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Maybe an XTi if the rumors are true...

    That might make both marketing and CAFE sense. Priced at $35,000 only a few would sell, minimally affecting CAFE and providing a halo image for marketing.

    However such a price would send a lot of business to Hyundai and Mazda. I owned $40,000 cars years ago, but certainly would not now be a prospect for an XTi at an STi price.

    Perhaps the intent would be to direct sales to the Outback 3.6 which has less of a dollar/yen exchange rate profit problem.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Even the new XT Touring runs $29,995. Hopefully they base the XTi on the Limited, and it costs only a tad more.

    Subaru knows the Forester does lots of volume, it would be a mistake to sell it as a pricey niche model. Plus, the XTi name hints it won't have STI pricing.
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Hopefully they base the XTi on the Limited, and it costs only a tad more.

    But there is no XT Limited for 2011. If you want leather Touring is required.

    Another issue is the probable soon direct injection power upgrade for the normally aspirated models. If that means 200 HP, the 224 HP turbo would seem not worth the price change. That also suggests an XTi would need more power.
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    this is why I shall limp the OB to the shop this week (died 5 times today) and get it fixed rather than buy right now. I will suffer major remorse if there ends up being a 2012 DI Outback with 200hp.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's right, it's Premium or Touring. Let's see an XTi based on the Premium for the most bang-for-the-buck.

    224hp ain't what it used to be, it's time for a boost. I wonder if they need a trans that can handle the 265hp version from the WRX. Hurry it up, Subaru.

    You can get 276hp in the Kia Sorento and Hyundai Santa Fe. Soon the Tucson/Sportage will get similar power from a 2.0T with DI.

    That market doesn't stand still, that's why I think the 2011 engine upgrades didn't really go far enough.
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    You can get 276hp in the Kia Sorento and Hyundai Santa Fe. Soon the Tucson/Sportage will get similar power from a 2.0T with DI.

    And on 87 octane too! I believe that capability is tied to very even cooling of the cylinder head, hopefully accomplished as well in the new 2011 Forester's engine. That presumes a new turbo-specific block is coming.

    The 5EAT might handle the power but past trans reliability issues in some Tribecas makes one wonder. That trans seems to be much smoother in the Outback 3.6 than it was in my 2005 3.0R: Possible new supplier of the guts; not from Nissan this time?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    Have any of you looked at Subaru's "mediocrity" ad scheme?

    Hah! :D
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    265hp would be a little more than the Tribeca, but remember the Forester is much lighter and tows less, so I'm sure the 5EAT could handle it in that application.

    Seriously, though, it's time for Subaru to find a new transmission supplier, if need be.

    The Mediocrity ads are funny, Bob sent me links earlier.

    However, anyone else find it ironic that the new Kia Optima, used in those ads, now comes with a 6 speed paddle-shifted auto, DI, more base HP, and more optional HP, with better mileage?

    Kia is far from mediocre, in fact they make Subaru powertrains look bad. It would have made more sense to tease the Chevy Malibu.
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Seriously, though, it's time for Subaru to find a new transmission supplier, if need be.

    No doubt they are getting suggestions from Toyota to share a trans. If Subaru had transverse engine placement we probably would have already seen the Camry 6-speed used. Rear drive Hyundai models may use a German trans, probably costly. Or are the big six and V8 Hyundais transverse?

    The coming Toyota/Subaru coupe with a Subaru drive train might need a good autotrans too. Standard trans only would be too limiting.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited October 2010
    Or are the big six and V8 Hyundais transverse?

    I'd search for photos, but make sure you see one without an engine cover, because the Koreans create the false impression that transverse engines are longitudinal. In other words, they fake it with a plastic cover.
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    edited October 2010
    The Genesis Coupe's v6 and the Genesis sedan's v8 are longitudinal.

    Juice wasn't totally crazy, though, as the Sonata does indeed have an engine cover that makes it look longitudinal, and it's absolutely a transverse-mounted inline four. Example: http://image.motortrend.com/f/auto_shows/new_york/2010/1003_2011_hyundai_sonata_- - 2_0t/27388661%2520w750%2520st0/2011-hyundai-sonata-turbo-engine-2.jpg
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's correct. I'm only slightly crazy. :D
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    Slightly? Well, let's just call you crazy and leave it at that. :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    edited October 2010
    Two articles with much the same info:

    http://toyobaru.net/forums/f9/toyota...scion-usa-397/

    Toyota Exec Meetings - Confirmed FT-86 To Be a Scion in the USA
    I've been sitting on this information in disbelief, however we have other confirmations in hand now. According to our inside source at Toyota the FT-86 is going to be released as a Scion in the USA. Toyota and Scion Marketing and Management adjourned across the US this past Tuesday to receive the news. Their reasons behind using Scion is reported as Marketability and pricing structure, Scions as you might know share a fixed pricing structure at all dealerships. If released as a Toyota the FT86 could be suspect to price hikes. In the end it sounded like Subaru and Toyota thought that Scion was the best choice for the FT-86, I strongly disagree.

    The report also included that of a 2.5l Engine would make it to production. The current engine "marketed" with the Toyota FT-86 is only a 2.0 liter. The choice of the 2.5l is a good one. However they are also increasing the original entry level price range around $25,000 US.

    In the meeting was a 3D hologram of the FT-86, although its not known if it was changed or as the Scion branding. Our source also provided details of the Subaru variant, and I'm afraid to the bad news continues. The Subaru 216a is expected to be released in Euro markets only. We did not receive reports of the other Markets, such as Asia, Australia, Japan. These markets would be more likely to get a Toyota and not a Scion, which isn't an international brand.

    The car is expected to be break into US shores at the NY Auto Show this April.

    Price Range: $25,000
    Expected Date: 2012, after the the Scion IQ.
    Engine: 2.5 Liter Boxer
    Name: Still undecided, although Likely Scion FR-S
    Body Style Changes: Yes, slightly more square.

    UPDATE: I had more time with my source and they explained this is Toyota's last ditch move to save the failing brand, Scion. Scion sells well in California, Texas, but not that well anywhere else. I was also told the body design will be slight changed, Toyota doesn't want the FT-86 to compete with the Lexus IS brand so they are making the design a bit more square. More bad news if you ask me.


    http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/10/r...gher-than-exp/

    Report: Toyota FT-86 to be badged as Scion, retail for $25K
    When the Toyota FT-86 concept was unveiled at the Tokyo Motor Show, we were surprised and delighted at the prospect of an attractive, rear-wheel-drive 2+2 with a $20,000 price tag. Could we just as excited for a $25,000 RWD Scion? We may not have a choice.

    The Wall Street Journal reports that Toyota management told dealers in Las Vegas there will be a production version of the FT-86 badged as a Scion model. The move would help bolster the struggling brand, which has been a bit product-starved of late. There are also rumors of a new price point – as high as $25,000 – and the possibility that the Subaru version will only be available in Europe.

    While the report claims the FT-86 will be badged as a Scion, there is no definitive word there won't be a Toyota variant as well. We're sure to learn more this auto show season, as reports show that the production FT-86 could arrive at the New York Auto Show in 2011.


    I'm not terribly surprised by this. If the Subie version is indeed Euro-only, then my guess is it is RWD. :(

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I guess why bother if they weren't going to build an AWD version.

    If they do, then badge it as a Subaru.

    I think the Scion name makes total sense, BTW.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2010/10/rendered-2013-subaru-impreza-wr- x.html

    I think this will be fairly close. My only objections are that the grille insert (the "wings") are way too prominent. I'd like to see that aspect more subtle, a lot thinner and perhaps black like the current model. I also think the tailights could be a bit larger. I think the overall shape of the grille is pretty close to what we'll see. I would think, this being a WRX, that there would be some sort of air scoop aft the front wheel, like the current model.

    What I've heard so far is that this redesign will be an "evolutionary" one, not a "revolutionary" one, and these illustrations back that up.

    I'm optimistic.

    Bob
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,163
    Grille looks like Chevy Cruze. Or worse - Chrysler. Yuk. :( Line is just like the current one.Lights are allright.

    Subarus tend to look life better than in pictures, though so there is hope.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    edited October 2010
    The grille is inspired by the Hybrid Touring Concept that hit the auto show circuit last year.

    http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/tokyo/2009/112_0909_subaru_hybrid_tourer_co- ncept/photo_05.html

    Bob
  • rblnrrblnr Member Posts: 124
    Sides look very much like the current Legacy. Based on the mule, there's a ton of speculation here obviously. The designer was quoted as saying that he didn't like character lines all over the place, wanted the shape to speak -- and that is evident in the design of the Hybrid Tourer. Also said that the last gen Legacy was his favorite Subaru looks-wise FWIW.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    edited October 2010
    The front end looks nice, I think, despite the somewhat awkward headlight transition, which may become standard Subaru fare. Looks like the rendering team agrees with my initial assessment about the car's "fat" hiney. :P

    As far as an evolution goes, if the car looks close to this, it will be alright. I would like to see a better "flow" to it, though.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    edited October 2010
    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2010/10/15/501478.1-lg.jpg

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2010/10/15/501478.html

    Forester S-Edition’s turbocharged 2.5 litre 193 Kilowatt engine is 24 kW more powerful than the XT and produces 347 Newtonmetres of torque, up 27 Nm.

    Other significant additions include:

    Paddleshift five-speed automatic gearbox
    Revised sports suspension
    Variable Torque Distribution (VTD) All-Wheel Drive
    Exclusive styling accents
    STI 17-inch high lustre alloy wheels
    Alcantara seat trim with S-Edition logos
    Drilled alloy pedals
    Luminescent instruments with centre design unique to the model
    Forester S-Edition badging

    ________

    This is what our Forester XT should be. It looks like they took some stuff from the departed Outback XT, and added it to this car.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited October 2010
    I hope this replaces the XT, and isn't just some high-priced $33,000 special model.

    This is what we should have gotten instead of the Touring model.

    PS Gimme back the roof rails.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/02/la-preview-subaru-will-present-new-confidence- -in-motion-green/

    A few comments:

    1) It's been a long, long time since Subaru used the LA show to announce anything new, much less a world debut.

    2) Still a lot of front overhang, so I doubt this will indicate much about the new coupe, in terms of possibledrivetrain.

    3) While it's a "green" concept, you can bet FHI and SOA will be following the "styling" comments very closely, as it's sure to hint at what future Subies might look like.

    4) I bet this is the drivetrain that the Impreza hybrid will be using; may even be a hint of what the next Impreza's styling will be.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The silhouette reminds me of the Prodrive P2, remember that concept? Me likey...
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Actually, it reminds me of the Suzuki Kizashi. Nothing wrong with that, as that's a handsome sedan.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    edited November 2010
    http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/17/subaru-impreza-concept-la-2010/

    Hopefully the next-gen Impreza won't stray too far from this. Should be on sale next year.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    edited November 2010
    http://www.subaru-global.com/press/

    There are a couple of really cool videos here; especially cool is the "Brand Movie."

    Bob
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    From what we can see in the photo here, the front end and the lines on the car look very nice. I especially like the lines on the hood, which flow very nicely. That part reminds me of the '05-'07 Outback, which had similarly nice hood lines.

    I wonder about the back end....
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    There are plenty of photos out there, some of which show the rear. I think it's a great looking car from all angles.

    Bob
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    Good point - a quick Internet search helped me out there!

    image

    Interesting - the back end looks like a very close interpretation of the front! Not bad, though. This is a concept, not production, but I am curious to see the hatch. If production follows somewhat like this, I stand by my original interpretation of the test mule, even though I don't think it will look bad at all.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    There are a ton of images in the link I posted the other day, from all angles.

    Bob
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    It is very easily the best looking Subaru car since the 2005 Legacy. Assuming they adopt this mostly, if not entirely, as the next-gen Impreza, I think the styling alone will greatly improve sales numbers.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    edited November 2010
    I agree. In fact I think it's better looking than the '05 Legacy. Hope they can preserve most of this as it transitions into a production car. Interesting to note that this concept is wearing 245/40x19 tires. Now those will never make it onto the base Imprezas—but could see duty on the STI version.

    I also think—as great as the current Legacy and Outback are selling—how much greater the sales would be if those models also had breathtaking styling.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    best looking Subaru car since the 2005 Legacy

    I think this looks even better, and the 05 Legacy will now be known as the 2nd best looking Subaru sedan ever.

    I see inspiration from the Opel Insignia (Buick Regal), but that car came out recently so a lot of the resemblance must be coincidental.

    Also, besides the Regal-like greenhouse, I see Legacy fender flares, the grille from the Hybrid Tourer, and a rear deck that looks like an evolution of the current Impreza.

    Put it all together, though, and it just works.

    Also note that we are comparing this design to european Opels, Volvos, and other upscale cars.

    The bug-eye WRX was compared to a Neon.

    The last WRX was compared to a Kia.

    So even the CRITICISMS against the new one are far more flattering. I'm sure Subaru doesn't mind that every car it's compared to costs significantly more than an Impreza. :shades:
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    Completely agree.. The STI and competitors (Evo, etc) have 245mm tires or wider, so that size doesn't surprise me at all. I'm sure a base trim Impreza will be wearing more like a 205, 215.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    There are a ton of images in the link I posted the other day, from all angles.

    :blush:

    Incredible. I just went to the link again and sure enough, there they are! Yesterday when I was there, those thumbnail strips did not appear (though there was a large white space between the end of the article and the "jump" it referred to).
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • nine51nine51 Member Posts: 77
    I like this. It's much better looking than the latest version of the Legacy/Outback. The headlights don't have that "bad facelift" look like the 2010+ Legacy. They are integrated into the fender line much better. I know...personal taste. How about a hatch/wagon version??? The wheels are a little busy. Try cleaning brake dust out of those.

    I like the blue accent light around the headlights, but the local cops around here will have a field day writing tickets. They don't allow ANY blue lights on vehicles. They say it confuses people into thinking they are police cars. HA!! Better make them amber.

    Hope they put better seats in it. Our 2010 OBS is not the most comfortable Subaru I've owned (7 so far). Make the head restraints adjustable fore and aft and give/sell us more lateral support.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,759
    The headlights don't have that "bad facelift" look like the 2010+ Legacy. They are integrated into the fender line much better.

    Yes! I agree with you on that one. That is not my only grip about the new L/O, but that is the biggest.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
  • colin_lcolin_l Member Posts: 591
    I like the blue accent light around the headlights, but the local cops around here will have a field day writing tickets. They don't allow ANY blue lights on vehicles.

    It's supposed to be a soft bluish LED a lot like Audi's DRLs. I haven't seen any Audis getting tickets and they're not *that* blue in person. I am guessing this show car was either in weird light or intentionally overdone.

    Many cars are following Audi's lead and have some kind of LED lights for the daytime running lights.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What seemed cool at first has become tacky, IMHO. These headlights now look be-jeweled, it's the new "bling".

    I never liked chrome, and don't particularly like this LED trend, either.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It doesn't bother me.

    Bob
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