Subaru Crew - Future Models II

barresa62 · July 2001

that SOA doesn't offer the OEM 17" as an option (or heated seats/mirrors). The WRX is a performance car that deserves to have better rubber (read: brand other than RE-92) and larger diameter wheel/tire combo. You can't sit there and advertise the WRX as SOA does on TV and then try to downplay it with less than stellar equipment std or optional! BTW, the TV ads show the BBS 17" option w/some sort of 17" tires.

It makes it all the more ludicrous when the 17" OEM is std everywhere but N.America and the heated seats and mirrors std in Canada. It would not cost SOA a thing (or neglible at best) to offer these as options in US of A. Once again....(I know, a broken record...)I am advocating these as options, not STD EQUIPMENT. Afterall, I too, like the low pricepoint of the WRX. I love my WRX but it burns my backside to realize that I got shortchanged when compared to the rest of the WRX world market. The extra HP vs other markets is just not enough to make up for this slight. SOA is also missing the lucrative aftermarket business. WRX owners will continue to upgrade to make up for SOA's misstep. The expensive BBS wheel option is a joke for the average Joe or Joline. The STI parts are not to be installed by SOA dealers, etc. Ok...enough of my rant.

It would be great if Patti could offer some explanation for what I few to be shortcomings if SOA is truly serious about the WRX. I promise I'll be good.... :-)

Stephen

rsholland · July 2001

ateixeira · July 2001

The Avancier loses something in the process, though. It's not just the overall shape, it's the details.

For example, the Toyota Matrix manages to look nice, while the Kia Rio Cinco wagon looks a bit odd. Both are rakish and similarly sized.

-juice

paisan · July 2001

and since the 17" rims are not a PIO or Factory option, they are not eligible for use in SCCA Auto-x stock class. They would make a big difference IMHO to help the WRX do better than the Teg and RSX in the Solo-II.

-mike

rsholland · July 2001

rsholland · July 2001

I like the Avancier's styling, and I don't care for the looks of the Toyota Matrix.

At least we agree that the Jeep Liberty looks great.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2001

We drove by a Cherokee on the way back from my test drive of the Liberty, and you almost have to laugh. Though for a 1984 design it held its own, I guess.

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

matured very gracefully. It's one of the few cars that, IMO, looks better today than when it was originally introduced.

I remember when the Cherokee originally came out, the quality control was horrible. I remember going to dealer's lots and seeing Cherokees having a "Laredo" badge on one front fender and a "Pioneer" badge on the other front fender. I'm not kiddingand I saw a number of Cherokees like that, not just one.

Bob

paisan · July 2001

Cause it was boxy!

-mike

ateixeira · July 2001

I think it's styling peaked about 10 years ago. By then, 4WD was trendy, but it still didn't look so old.

Now, it looks more "wagony" than even a Forester. It's the short doors - the Montero Sport looks the same way. Too "flat" looking.

-juice

qbrozen · July 2001

Just my opinion, and I don't want to start an argument, but I think Chrysler ruined the Jeep in every form.

The mid 70s were the coolest, IMO. I had 2 of them at one point. Great lines, mean looking grille, and the monster 360 engine with the biggest 2 barrell carbureteur I've ever seen. That was a beast of a vehicle. Take a look on Ebay and you can see some decent pics of a few.

paisan · July 2001

A lot of things got ruined in the 80s or at the end of the 80s.

-mike

rsholland · July 2001

ateixeira · July 2001

Jeep needs a hit. The Cherokee was ancient. The Grand Cherokee had some serious quality glitches that hurt dealer/customer relations, and sales are down.

The Wrangler was the sole shining star, so the Liberty may be the one to save Jeep.

I really don't see their lineup as overlapping with Subaru's. In fact, it would surprise me to see people cross shop a Liberty with a Forester, because they are so inherently different.

-juice

kens · July 2001

Bob,

That's hillarious. I guess you can say that the early Jeeps didn't know it's head from it's [non-permissible content removed]. ;-)

Ken

rsholland · July 2001

casual cross-shopping?

I agree, they are two really different animals. Although Jeep marketers I'm sure will do their best to guide Forester shoppers into Jeep dealerships. They are, after all, going after the cute-ute market with this vehicle, as well as the off-roaders.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2001

I noticed Fitz does not have any Limiteds in their on-line inventory. They are all Sports priced in the low $20s. That means many of them are going to be fairly stripped down.

-juice

francophile · July 2001

Might have boxy looks, paisan, but I don't think you'd like its interior dimensions. The front seats are tolerable but the back seat is awful. The seat cushion is about 3" off the floor and anyone over 4 feet tall ends up eating their kneecaps. No headroom either. Stick with your Trooper!

Cheers,
-wdb

paisan · July 2001

Not trading it in just yet. I'd only consider the older 2-door models because the back seat is almost useless except for kids.

-mike

drew_ · July 2001

Topic: July 31st: Fanatical Car Care Behavior - 'Fess Up!"

p0926 · August 2001

The 2-door model is what I had and for the exact reason Mike mentioned. In fact, I usually left the back seat down. I'll always have a fond spot for the Cherokee. Maybe I was lucky but mine treated me very well and was virtually trouble free.

I saw my first Liberty (briefly) last weekend. I really liked the looks of it. All indications are that it's going to be a big seller for DC if they can avoid QC problems. I'll have to sneak out to Jeep dealership for a test drive sometime.

-Frank P.

rsholland · August 2001

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Bob

rsholland · August 2001

on the new CRV is starting to arrive. The link from Honda is just a teaser. It does link up to some detail images of the headlights, taillights and rear door.

Like SOJ, it's mostly in Japanese. Ken can you translate.

The following is my post over at the CRV forum with the link:

rsholland "Honda CR-V" Aug 1, 2001 8:54am

Bob

ateixeira · August 2001

I liked the Liberty. Best truck in the small SUV class, IMO, far better than the XTerra.

I still prefer car-based ones like the Forester, though.

-juice

kens · August 2001

Bob,

Very little info on that site. Just some vague comments about new sharp styling, class-leading cargo space and something about a "G-Control" saftey device (stability control?).

Looks like they're keeping the overall shape of the CR-V -- just a little less boxy.

Ken

rsholland · August 2001

Yep, a real teaser. Just enough info to peak your interest, without really telling you anything.

Bob

ateixeira · August 2001

They look fine on the new CR-V, but this trend is getting a bit much on some cars. The Celica may have started it, though I think the big Benz coupes had them first.

Pretty soon, the headlights will be pulled back so far, and the taillights pulled so far forward, that the two will meet!

-juice

jimmyp1 · August 2001

On the Yahoo Legacy B4 chat group (which I lurk in), the Australian folks are starting to see them trickle into Perth, etc. Does anyone know what the conversion rate for Australian to US dollars is? They are being quoted $55k Australian. I am starting a search right now. I realize that it may be comapring apples and oranges, but it would be a rough estimate. I'm still sticking to my original hunch that we are looking at 40k here in the states. Twin turbo, at least 250hp, there aren't any cars that can boast that kind of performance under 40k. But I'm still saving my money.

Jim

jimmyp1 · August 2001

I may end up eating my words. I get a little UNDER 28k! I will buy two.

Jim

FrankMc · August 2001

Frank

qbrozen · August 2001

When we can't even get an H6 for under that, I think you can pretty much forget that $28K number.

ateixeira · August 2001

Yeah, but the H6 hasn't sold as well as the WRX. Impreza sales are up 222% while Legacy sales are flat, despite the new engine.

Before the WRX came out, price estimates were in the $25k to $28k range, so the low price was a pleasant surprise. Let's hope it'll be the same way with the B4 - $28k to $30k or so.

It could be if it's not packaged with leather, climate control, CD changer (single CD is OK), etc. Give me the same equipment level offered in the WRX, just add a moonroof option, and my wife will be driving one.

-juice

rochcom · August 2001

I haven't seen one, but it may just be a big seller even if Quality Control at D/C is awful. The Grand Cherokee was a top seller even when it had absolutely the worst frequency of repair record in Consumer Reports. And it sold to people who read such things.

ateixeira · August 2001

Yeah, but eventually that caught up to them. Grand Cherokee sales are kind of flat, down even.

-juice

tincup47 · August 2001

Almost all Full and mid size SUV sales are down Also the JGC is overdue for an update. When they get new product, sales should go up again. Toyota Rav4 sales have rebounded nicely with the redesign. It is very hard to sell old product at the end of it's cycle, most people hold off until the new product becomes available. Ford is running into this with the F150, present design is from 96 (sold as 97's), GM's 1500 are freshened designs.

ateixeira · August 2001

Agreed. JGC has lost market share, though.

Forester outsold the RAV4 last year, IIRC, maybe they did bounce back.

There is much more competition now, even though there are far more buyers, too.

-juice

locke2c · August 2001

quote:Yeah, but the H6 hasn't sold as well as the WRX. Impreza sales are up 222% while Legacy sales are flat, despite the new engine.

Yeah, but in 1999 there were a bit under 11,000 total Impreza sales. Whoopdeedoo. It's not hard to sell 222% more when you're selling hardly any initially... now just think what would have been if they had brought the Impreza turbo over in 1993 instead of dinking with the SVX.

-Colin

paisan · August 2001

Dinking with the SVX???? The SVX is way better than the WRX is!

I have to agree though 222% increase over nil is not a great big jump, not to mention that they have spent $M in advertising the WRX. I've never seen so many car commercials from a manufacturer before, certainly not from a non-major brand.

-mike

ateixeira · August 2001

Actually, I don't think they would have had the same success that they are having today. Why? Mostly because AWD is trendy now, and it wasn't then.

In a way, their timing worked out. They had turbos back then in the Legacy, and before that in the GLs, and that wasn't enough.

-juice

p0926 · August 2001

Jeff makes a good point about the Liberty's potential for big sales regardless of DC's QC. Ford's Escape is an excellent example of the herd mentality of buyers willing to plunk down good money for a product of questionable reliability.

-Frank P.

cptplt · August 2001

In NZ the GTB/RSK B4 sells for about the price of a H6,actually a little less

paisan · August 2001

Yep, we just need to face the fact that Americans are lemmings...

On a side note, I've noticed that the subaru family since the WRX into, has gotten more and more civic like in mentality and arrogance. One of the things that always drew me to subarus were the tight knit, comradere(sp) of the owners. Seems like now the WRX owners, the kids anyway, are about a 1/2 a notch above the Civic folks. Just annoys me to no end.

-mike

lark6 · August 2001

I don't have any experience with Civic owners to speak of; they seem to run the gamut from commuters to boy racer wannabes (and that's a polite term). Is that what you're referring to?

As for WRX owners I'd be curious as to how many are kids who had their parents subsidize the purchase or pay for them outright.

Ed

kate5000 · August 2001

My husband is contemplating WRX, and he's way past the kid stage... um, now that I think more about it, maybe not
:-)

ateixeira · August 2001

mike: that's growing pains for you. Problem is, Subaru can't survive if it remains in its tiny niche.

If the B4 costs less than the H6, I'll get a B4 sedan for the wife. The H6 sedan is $26k or so, so $24-25k for a B4 would be a deal.

The pressure is on. Mercedes now has a mid-to-high 20's entry, and BMW and Audi already do. Now Jag is going to hop in. So the $30k price range will be awful crowded.

-juice

ateixeira · August 2001

Quick, what class do Imprezas compete in SCCA auto cross? SS something? Is it the same for the WRX and RS (I think so)?

Someone in the Impreza sedans board is also asking which is better suited as a platform for this type of competition.

-juice

bluesubie · August 2001

I believe they're in different classes. The current issue of Grassroots Motorsports has a breakdown of all cars.
edit: Better yet, just check the SCCA's web page.
http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/classes/index.html
Dennis

locke2c · August 2001

paisan-- opinions are one thing, but sales numbers and industry/consumer acceptance are another. Like I said, dinking with the SVX.

juice-- well we can't go back in time, but we can look at all the turbocharged (FWD and AWD) Eclipse, Talon and Laser models sold from 1991 to 1999 and say that Subaru coulda had a shot at that. The Impreza turbo was unquestionably a better car, except for a small matter of never offering a front LSD. (the STi models did have them as options and then later standard.)

-Colin

subearu · August 2001

Oh would that be a treat if it were priced that way here in the U.S. Make mine dark blue or black.

-Brian

ateixeira · August 2001

Well, just keep in mind they had THREE enormous dealer networks (Eagle, Plymouth, and Mitsu) to peddle the DSM cars, and that the great majority were not turbos. Even fewer were AWD.

Jeez, come to think of it, 67% of those brands are now dead! Holy cow, maybe it was a blessing for Subaru not to have gone there!

-juice

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