Subaru Crew - Future Models II

ateixeira · April 2003

Very, very nice Legacy. Looks like an Audi A5 Avant, half way between the two Audi models. It's what the Passat should look like.

Man, my next car is going to be a *tough* choice.

I cannot believe Saab will sell a N/A 2.5l version! Heck, it's a gussied up TS wagon! That surprises me, I figured it would be turbo only.

In fact, I think that is a mistake. All Saabs are turbos now, I believe, so they should keep it that way.

-juice

rsholland · April 2003

Just something to get folks to buy a Saab, at an entry-level price.

Bob

ateixeira · April 2003

Now things are making more sense to me. Saab is getting the wagon only. 5 door, whatever, it'll basically be a re-skinned wagon.

So THAT's why we didn't get the AWP and moonroof on the WRX. Those might be Saab exclusives.

That's what I suspect, even though I don't necessarily like the idea of Saab limiting what Subaru can offer itself.

I say put leather standard in the Saabs. Throw in thick carpets, wool or whatever, padded headliners, real wood and aluminum. People gladly pay for that stuff.

-juice

himiler · April 2003

A reliable Saab -- Imagine that!

ateixeira · April 2003

Saabs have been decent lately. The 9-5 gets good ratings, at least.

Depreciation is steep, though.

-juice

paisan · April 2003

Then don't buy a saab, buy the subaru counterpart. Let it be the upscale subaru. I have no problem with saab being the lexus of subaru. last time subaru went upscale, they failed, let saab fail or succeed this time.

-mike

lark6 · April 2003

But this pretty much closes the door on the WRX wagon for me, unless I move to a warmer climate or get over being spoiled by these options that help me deal with the colder one. Forester XT or this new Legacy for me.

I'm with juice on most of this. People pay gladly for this stuff, true, but this stuff does not have a bearing on how well the car is screwed together. Padded headliners fall apart just as easily as vinyl ones do. Subaru was in the process of creating a nice niche for itself; if Saab becomes the upscale Subaru, the latter trends back to the old "inexpensive and built to stay that way" mantra.

Ed

paisan · April 2003

You see the thing is subaru has always been pigeon holed, everytime they produce an "upscale" vehicle (SVX, VDC) they can't market it to the people they are trying to get to. Saab needs something different to help sales, this is a good partnership IMHO. Saab merges with subaru and you have Saab being the lexus of subaru.

Great marketing scheme IMHO.

-mike

PS: They are both rooted in aircraft so that's a link too.

sweet_subie · April 2003

i fully agree........if this opens up room for subaru's lux models.......great...personally, i would like to see subaru itself suceeding in lux markets...

it is the GM getting closer & closer to suabru that scares me......as long as they don;t mess with subaru mechanically, i am fine.

lark6 · April 2003

But I'm not convinced. What technology does Saab have to trickle down to Subaru that Subaru doesn't already have? Ignition switches on the floor? I sure as hell don't want to see Delphi switchgear in a Subaru.

Sometimes I'm not sure I see things the way other people do. Right now I see the existing Subaru product line as an affordable and more reliable alternative to Audi and Volvo, maybe even to parts of the BMW line and, yes, even to Saab. The bargain all-weather performance car for people who don't need to impress the neighbors or clients with badge snobbery.

I dunno, maybe I need my medication adjusted today.

Ed

kens · April 2003

Other than the engines, is there any indication of what else is shared between the 9-2 and WRX?

Ed -- I'm bummed too about the AWP not being an option on the wagon. It's going to be the gating item for me. In regards to the XT and Legacy turbo is that the 2.5T is a new engine. I don't want to beta test a second time around.

Ken

dcm61 · April 2003

I'm with mike on the Saab = Subie Lexus.

I'm hoping that this marriage moves Subaru in the direction of "no frills" performance across the board, not just in the Impreza line. For example, offer VTD, VDC, performance engines (and related transmission, wheels, brakes, tires, etc.) in "base" models. If you want a Subie with frills, it'll be at your local Saab dealer.

Definition of frills - wood trim, leather, power seats, etc. Make the moonroof optional on Subies.

Keyless entry & AWP are not frills! :-)

DaveM

paisan · April 2003

Well delphi switches will be in there no matter what. It's only a matter of time. The subarus will still be "affordable all weather alternatives" to the brands you mentioned, but there are a lot of people out there with money who don't want "affordable" they want "lavish""namplate" etc. These people represent $$$$$$ to FHI and GM, no reason not to tap them for $$$$$. Remember car companies are in business to make $ not to sell or make good cars. If selling cool cars that are good earns them $$$$ then they'll do it.

-mike

lark6 · April 2003

Okay, I'm with DaveM on that description. Options that make the car better suited for foul weather - and that includes AWP - should be part of the deal.

paisan: Everyone, not just car companies, is in business to make money. If you don't make a good product, though, you are not going to get repeat business, which every company wants. You can only cut costs and overhead so much until your product suffers - even more so when it comes to services. If Saabaru quality drops to the level of GM's US nameplates (and I know about this, I've owned a Buick and driven many Chevy trucks), then I will look elswhere. No amount of leather, chrome, or free passes to the flower show will change that.

Ken - yes, I don't really want to be a beta tester either. That's the main reason why I waited until mid-cycle - 2000 - to buy the Forester. Good luck with Kana and the baby.

Ed

rsholland · April 2003

I just read the Saab 9-2 turbo will have close to 300 HP. That sounds like the STi motor, not the WRX motor.

Bob

sweet_subie · April 2003

see this
http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=&content_code=01780168

rsholland · April 2003

http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=40797&dm=yes

Kirstie_H · April 2003

Join us tonight, 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET for Town Hall Trivia Night and member-to-member chat  come test your knowledge and chat with fellow members!

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

See you there!

sweet_subie · April 2003

here we go..........& NO OTHER ANNOUNCEMENT IN THIS SHOW

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- - _code=carnews&content_code=08965036

himiler · April 2003

Looks like we can expect some major price-slashing on the current Baja!

(As if my local dealers weren't already offereing $4000 off MSRP.)

subearu · April 2003

a bit busy on this thread today, eh?

I guess I'm not too worried about a WRX rebagged as a 9-2. I'm concerned more about the long term outlook for Saab (aka Subie-Lexus), if this is the 'new' direction it's getting taken to? Is it only going to be 1 vehicle? Or are we to expect all top end models becoming Saab's? How soon?

Makes me start thinking that the new Legacy Turbo will be more likely a Saa-buru to justify the cost points.

I'm going to keep my SU-BEAR-U plate, so I'm sure that my next vehicle (late this year/early next year) will be an XT to go along with that plate. I can't see getting SA-BEAR-U, ;-)

-Brian

rsholland · April 2003

next January, the Detroit show.

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=5069

Bob

sweet_subie · April 2003

where is the edmunds' review on autoshow ? nothing yet ?

paisan · April 2003

I agree, if the quality drops or they re-badge american cars like the Assender then I'm outta here too.

I have no problem howver with Saab being the premium line of subarus.

-mike

kens · April 2003

From just-auto.com:

a turbocharged 2.0-litre four likely to produce somewhere in the vicinity of 300 hp

The stateside STi gets a 2.5 turbo.

Either it's a typo or they're running the twin-scroll found in the JDM models. Maybe Saab has some budget left in their emissions restriction.

Ken

cusafr · April 2003

I cannot help but wonder why many long-time posters here agree on the Saab as Subaru's premium/luxury line. This bothers me! I have been looking at Subaru for some time now, gathering my reasons to make this my next car. Some of my reasons: High Quality; Long-Term Reliability; Long-Time Followers of the Brand; Long-Term Experience with AWD; A little more expensive than some others, (Honda-Nissan-etc.) but because of all the other reasons...must be worth it!!!

On the other hand, with all the problems Saab has had for years, I would not even consider them.

I now drive an Infiniti. Am I looking to Down-Grade to a Subaru? Maybe this is not a wise decision after all?

CUSAFR

rsholland · April 2003

I cannot help but wonder why many long-time posters here agree on the Saab as Subaru's premium/luxury line.

Speaking for myself, It's not so much that I want this to happen, but more a resignation that GM, in some fashion, is going force Subaru to share a platform with one of the GM brands. That being the case, I would pick Saab over Chevy, Pontiac, Buick or Cadillac. The only other GM brands I would entertain would be GMC or Hummer, both of which are long shots at best.

Bob

sweet_subie · April 2003

what we are talking about saab with subaru mechanical parts......BTW, i would never buy a saab for 35+ with nothing special to offer......

You can/should buy a subaru in my opinion....esp if you live in the snowy areas.....

cusafr · April 2003

I can understand that powerful GM could force subaru to share a platform with one of their brands. I guess the part that bothers me is the part about making Saab the "Premium/Luxury" brand of Subaru. Now, maybe it's just me, but notice I bought an Infiniti I-30, instead of a Nissan Maxima.

I don't live in the snow belt, but I plan to travel across the country and would like the security of AWD. Many others have, or are coming out with AWD, (including Nissan and Infiniti) but all my previous reasons appear logical including Subaru's long-term application/knowledge of AWD.

CUSAFR

sweet_subie · April 2003

Try...........
www.fitzmall.com

for best subaru prices......

paisan · April 2003

Well a rose by any other name is still a rose, no?

Basically it's my opinion that as long as it's a subaru vehicle, I don't care if it says saab, nissan, JLRP (JuiceLarkRSHollandPaisan), or GM on it.

"I now drive an Infiniti. Am I looking to Down-Grade to a Subaru? Maybe this is not a wise decision after all?"

It's funny you mention that, you essentially own a nissan, not sure why you bought infinity, most likely you bought the infinity for the options available on it, rather than the infinity name plate.

-mike

rsholland · April 2003

I agree. I don't like the idea of a "ceiling" put on Subaru, if Saab essentially becomes an up-market Subie either. I also agree with Mike: If the car is designed/engineered first as a Subaru, then sprinkled with Saab "Fairy Dust," then I don't mind. Obviously I don't want the car(s) to develop in reverse of that.

If the 9-2 proves successful, you can bet future 9-3s and 9-5s could also become Saabarus. The 9-3 could be built off the all-new Legacy, and the 9-5 could be spun off the larger upcoming 7-passenger crossover.

Bob

twrx · April 2003

Somehow all of this sounds a bit strange. Subaru already has a good line of premium cars-VDC line is it. As to worry about GM wrecking Subaru as long as it is not a mish-mash of GM parts like Saab we will be OK. If it still has a boxer I'll trust it. I don't think GM is totally stupid. Subaru is too good right now to be messed with. Look at last months sales. Look at quality and safety. Look at innovation. Even the first egg that they have laid may even be hatching. Baja sales were finally up to a decent level (1000+) last month. Also I think the turbo should really be helpful. Subaru can't deal with the utility complaints on the Baja without total redesign but the turbo will increase the fun factor so much that the "car" part of the hybrid becomes much more interesting.

TWRX

tkevinblanc · April 2003

<snip>
I don't think GM is totally stupid
<snip>

Oh, I do. I think they've proven that they are totally stupid. They buy car companies with unique markets and followers and mash them together.

It's a stupid plan. Less choice, more mediocrity, nameplates that mean nothing.

paisan · April 2003

is the worst selling subaru since the SVX, which was the "other" premium car they tried to sell.

-mike

hypov · April 2003

Subaru

SAAB

Make a list of what comes through your mind when you see the name. Maybe we'll see why Subaru would struggle in the luxo arena.

I'll start.
SUBARU:
All Wheel Drive
Rally
Commuter Work Horse
Performance/Handling

SAAB:
Performance/Handling
Luxury

-Dave

lark6 · April 2003

I'm flattered. Should we consider a joint business venture? I'm getting more practice writing business plans than I ever planned for in my life.

I'm not terribly fond of GM either though they've built some things that I liked a lot in an earlier time. Their automatic transmissions are among the world's best and their light-duty trucks, even with switchgear problems, have served my family well for many years.

I'm no industry analyst but I know that GM's old method of slapping different trim and fenders on the same body and calling it a Chevy/Pontiac/Olds/Buick/Caddy, then creating this social strata marketing campaign, doesn't strike me as being effective. This may sound like a generalization but the primary places I see GM vehicles that aren't light trucks or SUVs are in rental car fleets or in xenophobic parts of the country where people would rather die than not buy 'Merkin.

Ed

ateixeira · April 2003

Ed: what can Saab give Subaru? Money. That's it. Spread the costs!

Saab is basically re-badged Opel already. They have no unique platforms. I bet Bob's right, the next 9-3 will be a gussied up Legacy, the next 9-5 based on the 2005 SUW.

If Saab fails, Saab fails, Subaru sticks around. I kinda like the idea of keeping a $30k price limit on Subies, because that's all I could ever afford anyway! LOL

The VDC probably had a limited budget, so the attempt at "near-luxury" was half baked. 4 speed automatic? C'mon, 6 speeds are arriving now. No manual controls, either, when even low-end Kias, Mitsus, and Chrysler offer that. Where's the wool carpets? HIDs? Navigation? Accords and Maximas have some of those.

VDC is a very nice mid-sizer, worth the $27-29k they actually sell for. It is not now, nor was it ever, a $33k near luxury car.

Saab can successfully make those, if given the resources, and if allowed to charge the price of admission to get there.

-juice

lark6 · April 2003

Are you sure about that, juice? Saab money = GM money as it's a wholly-owned sub now. I guess this is an effort by GM to keep the Saab brand afloat.

The only technology I can think of on Saabs that could show up in Subies are the cooled (not heated) seats, the HVAC ducts that are adjustable in all directions, and the "black panel" instrumentation I once saw on a 9-3 that allows the driver to black out all gauges except speedo and fuel. The latter wouldn'e be very popular with most Subie owners I know.

Hmmm...the Opel/Saab connection now has me thinking that it won't be the Legacy and 9-3 sharing platforms, but the Legacy and Saturn L series...?

Ed

ateixeira · April 2003

GM might open up its coffers if it knows Subaru will share platforms (and costs).

Imagine they give Subaru 20% more budget for future models. We'll then see 5 speed autos, shiftronic, HIDs, Navigation systems, AVCS, etc. All luxury items that Saab would require, and would then be on the shelf for Subaru to sell as well. Or for us Mod freaks to install after the purchase.

-juice

sweet_subie · April 2003

Yes, with Isuzu......they destroyed the company by messing with it.

NO, with Suzuki.....they did not mess with the technology...but used suzuki products & rebadged as chevy/geo

I think they will the same with Subaru...not mess with it. If it does, easy decision for me to get out of this messssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!

sweet_subie · April 2003

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_saab_faces_tough/index.htm

Saab insiders say they are looking at using the next-generation Subaru Impreza platform to develop a new small car for Europe. The problem is Subaru doesn't make diesel versions.

"The boxer engines (Subaru's horizontally-opposed fours and sixes) are stumbling blocks," says Lutz. "Nobody has yet done a boxer diesel. There isn't one in our portfolio."

However, engineering sources says Saab and Subaru are seriously looking to develop a diesel boxer for the so-called Saab 9-1 and the next-generation Impreza.

A Saab-Subaru SUV for the U.S. and a 9-1 for Europe are far more than just rumors. Perhaps GM will follow something akin to the Renault SA revival of Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. – with one attractive and desirable new car after another. Otherwise, Saab could be consigned to history.

rsholland · April 2003

There's a boxer diesel reportedly in the works, probably with the aid of Isuzu.

Bob

locke2c · April 2003

I can't imagine a boxer diesel... I posted some long comments about this in maint & repair a week or so ago, but basically the massively oversquare design of a horizontally opposed engine is a poor match for diesel combustion.

oh and regarding the list earlier about what each brand name means-- to me Saab means TURBO. the base 9-3 has it with low boost for good low-end torque. higher end models have high boost. I don't understand why (besides cost) they would mess with that model and use a naturally aspirated 2.5L as the base engine for the 9-2. To me it's like having a non-AWD Subaru, turbocharged engines are that much part of Saab's identity.

-Colin

lark6 · April 2003

Paranoia creeping in: when Lutz refers to boxer engines as "stumbling blocks," does this foreshadow GM forcing them out of Subaru's portfolio, simply because they're not immiediately adaptable to other GM platforms?

Ed

paisan · April 2003

I read that too and felt the same way...

Doesn't look good for the long term...

-mike
Ghost of Isuzu Christmas Past

tv3wrx · April 2003

As a driver of 2 Subarus and a SAAB, I like both brands a lot, even though, (and because), they offer very different things. However, I have grown to dispise the automakers' brand/component/platform game so much that I would hate to see this 9.2 happen. Why? It accelerates "the beginning of the end" for both SAAB and Subaru, under GM's old-world, arrogant, obsolete marketing doctrine..."you can fool all the people all of the time". They see brands as nothing more than a badge to fool consumers with, rather than a marque that offers something unique, satisfying and worthwhile to own. What they are REALLY doing is fooling THEMSELVES, and their profits tells the tale. Brand loyalty is not what it was in the protectionist era when consumers WERE stupid and our Granddaddys bought big hoopties based on being an Oldsmobile-man or Buick-man or whichever they had bought into. Now there are just too many similar cars/brands, offered to a smarter world of consumers, who more and more want brands/products unique and special to own, (on top of reliable and fun). A SAAB SHELL that sounds/drives like a Subaru does not appeal to me in the least.....it's a brand-fart. And the LAST THING unprofitable GM should do right now is to further expand model offerings, which will only further cannibalize its other makes/offerings, which perpetuates the need for incentives, which drives CEO's and beancounters to get more sales, which leads to more basterdized models and brands, etc.,etc.,etc. ENOUGH. I LOVE Subaru.....it is the most unique affordable car brand on the market. They better not screw it up. SAAB is probably already finished as a brand, we just can't see it yet. The 9.2 won't save it, it'll just cannibalize both SAAB and SUBARU, as well as GM in general. (Wow, sorry that got so long!)

paisan · April 2003

I take it that if you wanted a luxury car, you'd buy the VDC or the SVX being a subaru enthusiast? Most of the consumers out there, no matter how much they like subies are not going to buy into a "luxury" subaru.

-mike

locke2c · April 2003

oh I certainly wouldn't argue that this Saab play has a lot of potential to dillute Subaru's niche and absolutely any hopes of moving upscale in consumers' minds and spending.

-Colin

sweet_subie · April 2003

sub dealers did not like this potential mixup as well...........

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=42416&a=a&b- t=subaru&arc=n

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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