Subaru Crew - Modifications II

jres · January 2001

Did you just use the words practical and Ferrari in the same sentance?

Not often that that happens in the real world.

ramon · January 2001

manumatics are great if u drive a 6 figure car whereby their manumatic shifters can handle 100 shifts in 1 second. The WRC Impreza sequnetial shifter does 10,000 shifts within 1 second! Now that's fast!
However for the average car that an average person can buy, the manumatics offered are inferior as they are slow to engage. Nothing more than just shifting your automatics manually.

ateixeira · January 2001

Exactly. The Volvo XC's shifter is so slow, I had to tap it at 4000rpm to get it to shift just before redline!

If it's that slow, why bother? I usually tapped it so late that it shifted on its own anyway. Even if it doesn't shift you'll lose speed if it's bouncing off the rev limiter.

VW's is also slow. Execution would have to be far better than VW's and Volvo's.

Hutch and I drove rather aggressively at Edmunds Live (my wet shorts proved that), and we both agreed that the buttons on the steering wheels worked better than on the shifter, because you didn't have to take your hands off the wheel.

So, give us a near-immediate shifting FIVE speed manumatic with buttons on the wheel for the same price as a manual that is as quick and as fuel efficient. Then I'll consider it.

-juice

paisan · January 2001

The autos get better or on par gas milage as manuals nowadays...

-mike

kens · January 2001

While we're on the topic of manumatics, I was wondering if someone could answer a question I've had for some time: Why doesn't anyone offer a manumatic that has a shift pattern like a traditional stick shift? The one beef I have about manumatics is having to "count" which gear you're in.

My initial thought was that it was an idiot proof design for someone who might try a 5->1 shift, but don't most manumatics have built in ECU control so that it can handle big downshifts anyway?

Ken

drew_ · January 2001

I think Saab offers something like that in Europe. It's a standard tranny, but with no clutch pedal. You shift normally and the computer will handle the clutch. Sounds fun to me! What I'm looking forward to is the MB Sequentronic. It's set up exactly like the WRC sequentials, except there is an auto mode, as well as reverse to the side.

Drew
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kens · January 2001

Drew,

Interesting. I think I've heard about that Saab tranny too, now that you mention it. Any idea which models will get the MB Sequentronic (what a tounge twister!).

Ken

north_twin · January 2001

In response to your post (#157) check out the following links;

http://www.ozwheels.com/r28.html
The "OZ Prodrive 17x7" has a 53mm offset

http://www.ozwheels.com/r26.html
The "OZ Superleggera 17x7" has a 48mm offset

http://www.rimstock.com/wheels/wheels/wheels.htm
The "Team Dynamics Motorsport 16x7", 17x7" & 18x7" all have a 50mm offset

These wheels are definately on the expensive side but they do offer the proper fit for the factory imprezza 2.5RS (5x100 @ 53mm)

ateixeira · January 2001

paisan: mileage is close, but not quite there yet.

The auto Soobs do well because of the 90/10 power split, vs. 50/50. Still, though, in practice the 5 speeds do about 2mpg better.

I think they make more of a difference with small displacement engines. In those you really need the manual to wring the power out.

In big engine it matters less. You've got enough torque in the Trooper that it basically won't matter.

-juice

lark6 · January 2001

Wow, I didn't think I'd ever start such a hot discussion!

Pros and cons of manuals v. manumatics v. full automatics aside, think of how far automatic technology has come. I've driven Buick Dynaflows(known as "Dynaslush" in the day), Packard Ultramatics and a bunch of early US 2-speeds. My '79 Accord had a manually shifted 2-speed Hondamatic that was just worthless. Now we're arguing that passenger car manumatics aren't close enough to F1 and WRC transmissions for our liking. Granted it's taken 50 years to get here, but I'd like to believe the days where we can blip up and down the gearbox in affordable everyday passenger vehicles with buttons, paddles or shifters and without a clutch pedal are not far away. My bad knees and I are looking forward to it.

locke2c · January 2001

North_Twin: I was referring to the fact that I looked for GM wheels in that width, which hopefully would have a Subaru-friendly offset. I didn't find any of those.

I know exactly where to find wheels made for Subarus.

-Colin

north_twin · January 2001

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I'm still finding it difficult to follow the string of a single conversation with so many going on.

locke2c · January 2001

It is. No offense to my fellow forum members, but I ignore a lot of it. Well, maybe ignore is too harsh. I skim. ;-)

-Colin

drew_ · January 2001

The C-class will be the first to get the Sequentronic tranny, probably because it is the newest model. Specifically, I believe the new '02 C230K coupe and the '02 C32 AMG will get them first. The SLK32 AMG may also have get it but I'm not 100% sure about this. Here's the interesting thing though...Sequentronic is a 6 speed manualmatic! Most manufacturers haven't even implemented 5 speed auto/manuals let alone a 6 speed. Shifting is computer controlled with a hyraulic unit doing the actual work. As I mentioned before, unlike the Tiptronic system or Acura's Sportshift, you pull the shifter towards you to upshift, and push away from you downshift. Just like the touring or rally cars! I can't wait to try it!

Auto mode is to the left, and neutral to the right. Reverse is a pull down from the neutral position

Drew
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rsholland · January 2001

There's no PARK position. Interesting.

Bob

drew_ · January 2001

It's almost like a real stickshift, isn't it ;-)

Drew
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.

ramon · January 2001

it's a stick shift wannabe. heheheheh.... looks sweet. But does it work as fast....that's the question.

seamus3 · January 2001

I tried an upgrade. I had 195/60/R14 and I didn't really notice too much of a difference. the tires weren't so great but I still didn't feel much. I don't want low profile tires because I don't like the rough ride. they perform really well but I drive on urban roads that are in less than good condition.
I am definitely going for new rims though. can I get them from the dealer? at about what cost? or should i go through that darlene lady you all talk about?

thecat · January 2001

KenS - Juice tells me that you found some Phillips bulbs for around $40. Would you please post the URL where I can buy them. Let the sun shine !
- hutch

lark6 · January 2001

...looks like something out of my organic chemistry classes. I wanna give it a try, too. I just sat down to read this month's Road&Track last night and I was really intrigued by the M-B C55 AMG (I think that was the name?!?). I like the looks of the CLK and the AMG version of same makes it that much hotter. $71K sticker, though. Ah well, I can dream.

kens · January 2001

Hutch,

I purchased my Vision Plus blubs at:
http://www.autolamps-online.com/
I believe a pair of H4s go for about $28.

I've found that the Vision Plus bulbs are the brightest stock wattage halogen bulbs available. Click here for a comparison photo I took between standard H4s and the VPs.

Ken

paisan · January 2001

From what I've read, you can't get "more" or "brighter" light from the same wattage bulbs. 80/100s seem to work fine in most vehciles, and they truely put more light on the road for you.

-mike

kens · January 2001

Mike,

Sure you can -- as long as the design allows for more efficient transfer of electricity into light. That's exactly what some of these "premium" blubs do. They simply contain a mixture of certain halogen gases (xenon, for example) at a higher pressure that allows the filament to burn brighter.

Ken

thecat · January 2001

Ken,
Thanks for the URL .. I'll order them today. I trust you're happy with the results.
- Hutch

thecat · January 2001

Ken,
Just got off the website. They don't show a conversion for the Forester (that is what you have isn't it). Do you know what the proper bulb is? I'd hate to buy the wrong item.
Thanks for the help.
- hutch

locke2c · January 2001

Glow brighter, Ken?

;-)

-Colin

paisan · January 2001

From what I've been told the "premium" bulbs basically are just wound tighter and therefore appear to be brighter. I am not a scientist so I couldn't verify any of this. Just put some hella 4000s on the front of your car and you won't need anything else

-mike

kens · January 2001

Hutch -- Foresters use H4s. Click here on how to do the swap.

Colin --

Got me!

Mike -- Yes, I've read that some bulbs (like PIAAs) use a thicker filament that's wound tighter so you get a brighter but narrower beam. I'm not sure if this applies to Hellas or Philips products. In any event, I've been extremely pleased with my Vision Pluses.

Ken

thecat · January 2001

Ken,
Thanks for the info. I ordered the H-4's today. When I get them installed, I'll post my impressions.
- hutch

paisan · January 2001

cause i am stuck with 9004s on my Trooper. Although, now with my Hella 4000s, any stock lights are dim compared to them.

If only the upgrade to e-codes was as easy as my sealed beam replacements on my XT6.

-mike

logger2 · January 2001

I was looking to do some simple low cost mods to my 98 Forester. From What i see on the 'net, an 18 mm sway bar and amsoil air filter seems to be a good start for my stock subaru. One thing I couldnt find was the gas mileage difference with the new air filters? Does the new sway bar make much of a difference in the handling? I'm sort of new to the performance parts thing and I dont know much about them. Any other suggestions for mods would be appreciated. Any ideas on where to get this stuff in Canada, i see lots in the US but don't want to have to deal with shipping, exchange etc.

Thanks

lucien2 · January 2001

I don't have mileage figures for you, sorry. I can address the swaybar issue though.

Yes it does make a difference. Quite a bit. It reduces body roll in corners, but mostly in the rear, obviously. While turn-in is improved, and the car feels firmer, be aware that your rear end is now cornering better than your front end, and may try to get ahead of you. That is to say, it will reduce the inherent understeer currently engineered into the car, and you will actually be able to easily induce oversteer. Sudden lift off of the throttle through a turn, or braking, will probably induce oversteer. I recommend the mod, but only if the driver is aware enough to adapt to the changes in handling.
I have one on my Outback set to 20mm. I'll be ordering one for the front as soon as I have the cash.

A front strut tower bar may also be a good addition to your vehicle. Juice is quite happy with his. Improve handling, improve braking, then worry about power.

Which reminds me, those Powerstop pads I ordered ought to be here any day!

ateixeira · January 2001

Note: Lucien went from 18mm stock to a 20mm adjustable. The Forester has 13mm stock, so going to an 18mm bar provides a noticeable change. Sweet!

Check out rice at www.beaterz.com. My favorite are the non-Type R cars with Type R stickers. Remember, stickers=fast, yellow=fast, yellow stickers=very fast! ;-)

Drew: Mercedes MUST change that font. Once again, I thought the "A" was actually an "R". And I had seen it before, too!

seamus: for the new rims, try these:

http://www.discounttiredirect.com/
http://www.tirerack.com/index.jsp

Tire Rack has more selection and expertise, but DTD has better prices and the specials are unbeatable. Check out the specials and e-mail or call to see which might fit your vehicle.

Remember - you can get lighter, wider rims with the same diameter and still improve performance.

On higher wattage bulbs, beware. Some people have no problems, others have melted their wiring harnesses.

The Hella H4+30s I have are actually not wound tighter. In fact, looking at the bulbs they look absolutely identical. The light is visibly brighter, though.

Still, the E-codes make even more of a difference.

-juice

lark6 · January 2001

Loosh,

I swapped in the 18mm rear bar a few months ago and found that the handling has about evened out front to rear (subjective, seat of the pants feeling). Is there a front bar replacement for the Forester that you're aware of that would balance things out? I know Forester and Impreza rear bars are a diect swap, I don't know that for sure for the fronts.

Thanks,
Ed

PS: I don't think those 2 mods are enough to warrant my swapping the black Subaru badge for a pink one.

ateixeira · January 2001

Ed: If you're happy with the way it is now, I'd leave it. I don't think SPT offers a fatter front sway bar, and that would give you understeer anyway.

You could stiffen up the front with a shock tower brace, but some say it isn't necessary.

I may paint my badge green with touch-up paint (after sanding the black paint off). Anyone think it'll work?

-juice

lucien2 · January 2001

I just took a spin through the major tuner sites and came up empty. You may want to email Whiteline directly about it.

bob@whiteline.com.au

Juice is right, it will dial some understeer back in. But 13mm to 18mm is a hefty jump for an otherwise stock set-up (Juicy has more rubber than you do), so it might not be a bad thing. Would Colin care to weigh in on the physics/real world driving aspect?

ateixeira · January 2001

We still haven't had enough snow for me to tell exactly how much oversteer I can dial in, as well as testing my tires in snow.

C'mon, snow!

-juice

lark6 · January 2001

Cool, thanks Juice. I don't see the need for shock tower brace at this point either.

Go out to the i-club page - there's instructions there for repainting your badges. If I get a few free minutes I'll cut/paste those instructions here. I assume you're going for the green to match your Forester? Using that logic, I should leave mine as is .

An Amsoil filter and performance exhaust might be the extent of my mods. Thought Stromung but have read negative comments on their durability - low-grade steel rusting prematurely. I understand STi has exhausts for the Impreza that give higher performance than the "performance exhaust" sold by SPT through dealers, but these might be Impreza-only items. I'd like to pick up 5-8 hp and get a nicer note - taking advantage of the H4 growl but not backfiring and burbling when I lay off the throttle (don't wanna be no ricer). I'd also like somthing no greater than 3" in diameter (see ricer comments again). I'd like I'd be interested to hear what other Forester owners have done.

Ed

ateixeira · January 2001

Yeah, I'll use the i Club tips.

3" for the exhaust is too much. You need back pressure or you'll actually lose torque at low revs.

I think the consensus is for 2.25" pipes. 2.5" only if you use forced induction.

Forester owners do very little. Ken and I are pretty much the exception that prove the rule, and even ours are pretty tame.

-juice

lark6 · January 2001

So then I won't repost the i-club tips here. For everyone else, go to http://www.impreza-rs.com; click on "Modifications," then click on "Custom Colored Badges." The guy who did it took good quality pictures and gave clear, concise directions.

Tame is okay. I don't think Foresters get used the way Imprezas do - most of them anyway. When I was in the UK last fall I picked up a marketing blurb at Ace Kensington that was co-written by Car magazine and Subaru UK. It mentioned that someone has actually used a Forester in competitive rallying. Does anyone know who did this and where, and if there are any pix floating around the web? Just curious.

Ed

ateixeira · January 2001

Yes, there was an i Club thread that asked if anyone ever autoXed a Forester. They actually had rallyXed one, and there was a cool photo.

Check by topic, search for "Forester".

-juice

rsholland · January 2001

I would think this would be the next logical area for Subaru to venture into, from a competition standpoint.

I think the Forester could be made Dakar-ready or Baja-ready, by just adding some of the goodies from their Rally-ready racing Imprezas.

I was just watching the Paris-to-Dakar Rally on Speedvision the other day. Didn't see any Subes, which is a shame. I think they would do well there.

Bob

paisan · January 2001

I think they used foresters to map/pre-run the Paris-Dakar. I remember reading it somewhere.

-mike

kens · January 2001

logger2:

An 18mm rear sway bar is a simple and cost-effective modification for your Forester. The Forester uses the same bar as the Impreza and installation simple -- especially with the added ground clearance.

I've found the 18mm rear sway bar does make my Forester feel more solid through turns. This past weekend, I had the chance to drive in the snow and yes, the rear end does come around quite a bit quicker than before. I'd turn in, let off the gas, let the tail ride out a little, get back on the gas and drift right back into line -- sweet!

I've found the Amsoil filter doesn't do much for gas milage. Think of it as an earth friendly alternative to paper filters.

One other mod I've done that's quite popular is removing the intake silencer before the airbox. The instructions are well documented on juice's webapge. This mod not only adds a nice growl to your H4 at WOT, but it also seems to allow the engine to rev more freely and pull harder at high RPMs without low-end loss.

You can find some of the mods listed here at a webpage I set up for my Forester.

Ken

locke2c · January 2001

The closest thing to that Bob was this past year at the Alcon 5000. It is a 5000 mile "rally" that starts in Seattle, crosses the Artic Circle, and ends in Anchorage and is run once every four years.

Paul Eklund was part of a team that won first overall in a 1998 Impreza 2.5RS. (read about it here) Subaru of America brought two then-new 2000 Legacys. Isuzu had a factory team too, but both lost to the independents in the very lightly modified 2.5RS. ;-)

Strange thing is that Subaru never used this impressive achievement for marketing purposes. Perhaps at that point they didn't care to spend the money for an Impreza that would soon be old news, and would have rather had their Legacys on the headlines. (They did get 3rd & 4th.)

-Colin

rsholland · January 2001

for competition too? With its better approach/departure angles, and wagon-like body; I would think it would be well-suited for the Baja 1000, Alcon 5000, and Paris-Dakar races.

Bob

lark6 · January 2001

juice: I saw that "autoXing a Forester?" thread on i-club and posted to it as well. I'm not sure if that's the one referenced in the Car blurb. I've also seen pix of a modified Forester wearing car #37 linked to the Syms site. Maybe that's it.

paisan: I don't know if Foresters were used to recce the Paris-Dakar, but they WERE used to recce the 2000 Safari Rally. That was part of the Car blurb and Subaru UK has gotten advertising mileage out of it. I downloaded a pic of that and if I can figure out how to post it here, I will if that's okay w/the moderators.

Ken: Your description of Forester handling w/18mm rear bar is just as I interpret it. Squirt on the gas, lift, rear comes around, squirt again and off you go. Reminds me a lot of making turns in my kayak. There's an alternate route home from work that has a 90-degree right hander, go 50 feet, 90-degree left. Sometimes I go out of my way to take that route.

I'd have to go look in the archive but I'm pretty sure that one of my earlier posts here (maybe in "Future Models") was to the effect that SoA wasn't taking advantage of its rallying heritage in marketing to the US. Looks like that's finally changing. Way to go, SoA!

Ed

bluesubie · January 2001

Here's a link on Sube of NZ's web site about the Forester recce car. About 3/4 of the way down.
http://www.subaru.co.nz/rally_content.html

And here's something about a Forester setting a 24 hour speed record at Indy.
http://www.fhi.co.jp/subaru/bode27.htm

Dennis

locke2c · January 2001

Bob,

It seems pretty obvious to me that Subaru's factory interest in the event was promoting the new 2000 Legacy. Otherwise it shouldn't have taken a genious to realize that the nearly 500lb lighter Impreza 2.5RS with the same powertrain would make a much better racer. ;-)

Don't see how the Forester would enter into the equation, personally. One car is the best for the task at hand, the other is (was) spanking-new and ripe for positive press.

-Colin

drew_ · January 2001

Thanks for the links! Those are the exact scout Foresters shown in a Speedvision's WRC coverage. I know juice will love it! It is a stock 2.5L B4 Forester except for the roll cage, underbody protection, heavy (mirrored) tint job, and communications equipment. FWIW, I know that Ford uses Explorers as their scout vehicles. In many situations, the Explorers have been used to tow back the (retired) WRC Focus.

juice, I think the shifter in the picture was a prototype, so hopefully it will look better in person or the font will be altered. There will, of course, will be an in-dash gear position indicator. I've also heard that there will probably be steering mounted shift buttons.

Drew
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Subaru Crew - Modifications II

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