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"Most post 1992 Camrys have sludge problem and will seize" rumor
Why I create this topic?
isellmitsu and her fiance fxashun repeatly posts
their claim that "most post 1992 Camrys have sludge
problem and will seize" in Camry and Camry 2
topics. They have been asked many times by lots of
users in Camry topics to stop repeating the same
claim over and over and have been suggested to
create their own topic in maintenance forum, but
they won't listen and respect to most users'
opinions. Therefore, I create this topic for them
and hope they will enjoy here. Anybody interested
in this topic, please feel free to discuss it with
them. Thanks!
isellmitsu and her fiance fxashun repeatly posts
their claim that "most post 1992 Camrys have sludge
problem and will seize" in Camry and Camry 2
topics. They have been asked many times by lots of
users in Camry topics to stop repeating the same
claim over and over and have been suggested to
create their own topic in maintenance forum, but
they won't listen and respect to most users'
opinions. Therefore, I create this topic for them
and hope they will enjoy here. Anybody interested
in this topic, please feel free to discuss it with
them. Thanks!
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I just don't like the fact that fxashun is using double standard. If he used one standard and called both Camry and Accord's problem s"most" or "few", I wouldn't have bothered. It's the obvious double standard being used by him that I find unacceptable now.
But that's OK. It is obvious you either don't have the intelligence to see the truth or to see that my point has been proven. Either way you lose.
Isellmitsu, Daewoo Leganza 3, post 612.
When confronted with dozens of reports of Accord's
transmssion problem, she said:
"And I said there are bound to be a few people on
Edmunds complaining about their Accord. They sold
so many of the durn things it's not even funny.
Even if 1% of Accords sold last year alone had a
problem you are looking at 4,000 cars. If 10% of
those people know about Edmunds you are looking at
400 different people who would be on here
complaining. But I have not seen 400 different
people complaining, instead it's always the same
few people complaining about the same problem."
Please now find 3,200 reports of Camry sludge in Edmunds, the same as you have asked others to do. You are short by 3,195.
Please do not post any more comments like this:
"It is obvious you either don't have the intelligence to see... "
This does NOT conform with the guidelines for Edmunds Town Hall.
It wouldn't hurt for you to apologize to cyw0, as well.
Your host , Bruce
Since I am not her I'm really not interested in what she posted in an entirely different forum. I am still quite amused and flattered that you would go through Edmunds and look for her posts though.
As far as an apology. Get real. If you'd read some of his posts in Camry 1,2,or 3 you'd see why I said that.
After I drove it for a couple of weeks, and BEFORE I discovered this sludge mess on Edmunds, I changed the oil and filter. Switched to Mobil 1 synthetic, as I have had good results with Mobil 1 on previous vehicles.
Here's the interesting part: When I removed the Oil cap, lo and behold, There was some orange/brown crud that had accumulated on the underside of the cap. Having been around for a few years, I sure recognized it for what it was- SLUDGE!
My conclusion, based on this experience? I think its quite possible Toyota does have a sludge problem, but if Toyota reacts to this as they have to other problems with their vehicles, it will freeze in h*ll before they admit it! In fact, my PERSONAL experience with Toyota is that the further you go up the chain in attempting a resolution to a problem, the stronger the denial you receive. Protecting their (somewhat tarnished) sterling reputation appears to be their number one priority, not customer satisfaction.
BTW- I love the Lexus. Its what Toyotas were...
Since I got into this sludge thing somewhere in the middle, I never found a specific reference to which engine was affected. Thanks for th update.
As you have read in my posts Toyota is refusing to fix cars that have been "sludged". I seriously doubt that the multiple reports of sludge are coincidence because there is no one engine that has accrued as many sludge reports as the 2.2L 4.
I will add however that Abarbee's engine was a V6 and it seized because of sludge(according to Toyota).
Keep us informed on what the dealer says about your sludge issue
Either way. I don't think any engine in the world is perfect, that includes the Camry's 4 cylinder. But when someone goes to claim that MOST 92-2000 camry engine have sludge problems, that's just too wild and unrealistic. Consumer report tabulate all the used cars and the % engine (and other areas, such as transmission, ect) problems each year. 1992 Camry, after almost 9 years use, only 2-5% of them have engine problems, that kind of reliability is only equaled but NOT exceeded by any automobile except 2 cars in the market, Lexus SC300 and Lexus SC400.
It's reasonable to assume that some of that 2-5% engine problem is due to sludge, but that's hardly qualify as "most". You are going to run into one problem or another, no matter which car engine you buy. And unless you buy Lexus SC300/400, you are not going to get a more reliable engine than the Camry's (statistically speaking).
Just like Honda's tranmission problems. You can dig out 5 Camrys with sludge, and you can dig out 20 Honda Accords with transmission problems. Does that mean, "most" of these 2 cars suffer these problems? No, of course not. With isellmistus and fxashun's own calculation, even if 1% of the Camrys are affected, and only 10% of the affected posted on Edmunds, there would be 3,200 reports of sludge, and we are not even close to that.
I don't deny that an individal might have a problem with their Camry or Accord, and I sympathize with them. But I think any statment that says "most of these 2 cars" have engine/transmission problems is fly in the face of reality.
Unlike the transmission clunk that is oft referred to here sludge is not an obvious condition. Rickc5 can attest to not thinking to look for the sludge before he bought his Lexus. I'm sure if he had known that his Lexus had sludge he would have been just as reluctant to buy it as if the transmission went clunk. One big difference is that even if he had bought the clunking Honda he would have warranty service. There is no such thing for the sludge.
A lemon is a car that can't be fixed after several attempts. Abarbee's car is no lemon, his fix is simple...A new engine. He has a car that Toyota WON'T fix. At least not under warranty.
http://looksmart.remarq.com/looksmart/transcript.asp?g=quack%2Etoyota&tn=50002025&sh=ff148b757a90f5d9&idx=-1
Sounds familiar too. Oil change receipts, 4 cylinder, no idea he had sludge, no assistance from the dealer.
No proof?
hahaha. Can't argue with that kind of great assumptions, it's even better than the claim itself. You win. I'm out of here.
I'll leave Edmunds if you can find a modern engine that has 5 separate owners referring to sludge as I have done with the Camry. Surely it should be easy since this could happen to any car.
Strange the only other references you can ever get is the Honda transmission problem. If Toyota fixed it's sludged Camrys like Honda fixed the transmissions we probably wouldn't even be here.
isellmitsu, Daewoo Leganza 3, post 612.
When confronted with dozens of reports about Accord's transmssion problem.
"And I said there are bound to be a few people on Edmunds complaining about their Accord. They sold so many of the durn things it's not even funny. Even if 1% of Accords sold last year alone had a problem you are looking at 4,000 cars. If 10% of those people know about Edmunds you are looking at 400 different people who would be on here complaining. But I have not seen 400 different people complaining, instead it's always the same few people complaining about the same problem."
So if you argued endlessly saying the dozens of reports are "isolated" or "rare" cases, then why are you now saying the far fewer numbers of Camry sludge reports prove "most 92+ camry have sludge problems"? That's why I bring up Honda Accord. You are double standard.
Stick to your own standard, not what suits you at the time.
Honda transmissions from Nov 1999 to Jan 2000.
Toyota 4 cylinder engines from 1992 to present.
Hey, I thought you were leaving.
Yes, I'm leaving. I won't waste any more time with your kind of double standard. You can sit here all by yourself and wait for those 3,195 reports that should show up by your calculation. I won't hold my breath if I were you, if 6 reports is all you can find for the last 9 years. Call me when you find them all.
See ya.
1. The clunk happened when the cars were new. Easy to pinpoint the problem and no chance for operator error. Everyone knew it was the transmission.
2. Sludge is not a problem in itself. It's just a condition that can lead to other things such as oil starvation.
3. Toyota has done a good job of blaming the condition on the owner. But it seems that Camry owner must be lax in their maintenance since EVERY forum that talks about Camrys has at least one reference to sludge. And in each reference the owner did not know he had sludge until the dealer told him. Most of these owners claim to have receipts showing regular oil changes. Most reports of the clunks weren't diagnosed by the dealer, a clunk is a no brainer.
4. If sludge was universal there would be more references in other forums. No surprisingly there must not be since you haven't linked us to them. Since no other make has anyone complaining about clunks meant Honda eventually did end up having a transmission problem...It would seem to add up that no other make having coincidental sludge issues would mean that Toyota has some problem with sludge.
5. Additionally as you know I checked well over 50 Camrys in our trade-in lot. And nearly all of them had some level of sludge. I will say that I did find some that were not sludged though. But the Camry showed a tendency to have the problem more than any other car traded in.
I thought you were leaving in post #16.
As far as arkie6's explanation I have this to say. If that were the case ALL Camrys really would have this problem from day one. And while I will state that a very high percentage of Camrys that I have checked have sludge, there are those that don't. In addition, the Camry does not have a "filler tube". And there are other cars that have the same oil cap design and they also don't display this tendency.
If you like Camrys you really have no other choice. As has been said before the Accord and Camry are the two top cars on the market but an Accord isn't going to like a Camry and vice verse. So now that you are aware of the "problem" you know to watch your maintenance carefully.
delry: The sludge in your Camry may very well have been caused by the use of Pennzoil (you mentioned it somewhere that you used it). That oil is known to cause sludge. So stay away from it from now. Also, Quaker State oil also does the same thing. Those two oil are made by the same company, and they contain/use a waxy additive(look in Camry 3 forums for the name).
Also, the Toyota manual is too lax on the oil change by stating 7,500 miles. That's for ideal conditions, most people should NOT wait that long between oil change. Even Edmund's suggest 3,000 miles. I personally do one every 4,000.
I'm happy that your Toyota dealer took good care of your problems. You are pretty lucky too, since Honda only has 36K mile warranty. While it's overall reliability is on par with Toyota, there must be few Honda owners got caught in those 2 years difference.
Boca2:
The claim by Isellmitsu that "most 92+ camry has sludge problems..." simply isn't true. Since the number of effected are extremely few, and consider the numbers of Camrys on the road (more than 3.2 million of 1992+), some the few reports certainly does not constitute a widespread problem. As Isellmistu herself pointed out while defending Accord's transmission problems, if there is 1% of them had problem and only 10% reported them, we would be seeing 32,000 reports.
Camry and Accord are the two most reliable cars on the road. Each has less than 5% engine problem even after 9 years of use (consumer report). Besides Lexus SC300/400, statistically there is not a more reliable engine on the market. So buying other brands will most likely just be swaping one problem for another (or two or three...) There is no perfect car, even Honda and Toyota has a small chance of having problems. You might get a lucky and get a trouble free car from any brand, it's just that your chance is better with Toyota/Honda.
I didn't have sludge; but when I went to the dealer for the blue smoke, he said that the first thing that they were going to do was pull off the valve cover to look for sludge. Luckily, once this was done, he said my engine was "fairly clean."
Arkie6: I think that an explanation about sludge from a former Toyota tech (now at my workplace) makes the most sense. He said that not changing the oil often enough causes sludge to form (in any car, if neglected too long), which in turn, can harm/degrade the valve stem seals. But he doesn't think that failing valve stem seals by themselves will cause sludge, just some oil leaking into the cylinders when the engine is off, resulting in oil burning (blue smoke) at startup.
If this affected other engines as often there would be more mention of it elsewhere but I have not found any. Especially not the Honda forum as Wenyue implied. I also offered to leave Edmunds if Wenyue could find five references to another single engine model referring to sludge. I'm still here.
If the 7500 mile interval as stated in the owners manual is what causes this problem, and this interval is not often enough, then that means that there are a lot of Camry owners caring for their cars by the book that probably have sludge and don't even know it.
The common denominator among all the sludge posts I have read is that no one knew what sludge was until someone told them that they had it. Usually when they needed warranty work on their engine.
Besides, Accords have more transmission problems than Toyota. There are more reports of Accord transmission problem reported in Edmunds's alone than Fxashun could scrape together Camry sludge reports from the entire net. And they involve more than just two months worth of production like some claimsl, since reports are involve modes from several different years and even very recently bought ones. Like I said, you would just be trading one problem for another. Even with these more abundant evidence, I don't jump around saying "most Accords have transmission problems...". Because I know full well that dispite these reports, they are extremely rare considering how many million of Camry and Accords are out there. Either way, you can't get a more reliable car than Camry or Accord.
Until you can show me that the few sludge reports you found on the net is any more statistically significant than the numbers of Accord transmission problem (don't try to claim it's just two months worth of production, there are examples falls before and after those two months) that I can find in Edmunds, you have no ground to claim it's a wide spread problem.
But...We recently took in a NICE 95 Camry wagon with only 55,000 miles. It looked like it had had a very easy life.
And, remembering these forums, I unscrewed the oil cap. It was filled with sludge!!
So, curious, I made it a point to chat with the technician while he did the used car inspection.
This tech just came to us from a large Toyota dealer.
He agreed that for some reason, the four cyl Camry engines have a tendency to do this and said that very frequent oil changes were vital.
Now, this Camry wasn't that bad...no harm done.
It did need an oil pan gasket which the tech said was typical. He said they are a %$#@ to change!
We did the gasket, installed new rear brakes, and later that same day, isellhondas sold the car!
Like I said, if you don't do your oil change often, you are going to have problems. Luckly, seems like most people are using their common sense than waiting until 7500 miles to change the oil since still less than 5% of Accord and Camry owners have engine trouble after 9 years. But would it make either side happy if those 5% Accord and Camry owners swapped problems? Probably not.
And indeed, "It's obvious to anyone with a two digit IQ that the Camry has some type of problem with sludging."<7</A>>.
And anyone with a three digit IQ (like most people do) will know that the proper conclusion can not be made based on some isolated cases.
I guess those 2.8799 million Camry owners are just lucky compared to those 5 or 10 Camry owners mentioned earlier.
As a scientist, I can not stress enough difference between individual cases and statistical significance. Undoubtly few people had problems, and they have my support. But they neither alter or contradict that most people didn't experience the problems (>95% for a 9 year old car). With 3.2 million Camry and Accord owners on the road, few will definitly have problems. Honda fans had to repeat this very same point not too long ago (ask Isellhonda and isellmitsu and fxashun how several reports really made the forum a big mess). But then again, no car is perfect, and Accord/Camry still remain the most reliable cars on the road short of a Lexus.
I think everyone gets the point now. And since none of the Camrys my family and friends owned had problem, I hope all of you will have the same good fortune.
No he wouldn't. But he would probably ask them what type of activities they participate in and find that 4 of them worked outside...Another 4 of them tanned regularly...The fact that the other 2 didn't have any similar experiences didn't remove from the fact that the sun probably has something to do with the skin cancer of the other 8.
All men don't catch prostate cancer and all women don't catch breast cancer but all men/women should be checked because of this tendency.
also developed sludge symptom which now creeps to your brain ^__^
Btw, I think a simple advice on the possibility of sludge due to lack of oil changes is more beneficials, than any other argument between wenyue and fxashun. Regular oil change is likely to be the main key.
What's honda recommended oil change interval anyway? (just curious)
Any help would we appreciated.
After researching and reading this board I beleive there is definately some defect with this engine, I need some help in finding any sort of proven info on this sludge. We have copied all info from here to present to them but I need more. Your help is appreciated, if you can help please email me milo324@aol.com, I'm in Coral Springs, Florida and I noticed my fellow Floridians with similar problems, Delray and Boca. Thanks for any help.. Eden
If the sun is the possible cause to the human beings, then the maintenance is the possible cause to the Camrys here. Who knows the oil has been changed, who knows the filter has been changed, who knows the engine oil is the one being changed.
If human beings' gene is bond to lead skin cancer when God designed it, then it's safe to say most people will have skin cancer and you will find most people do have it.
If Camrys really have design issue to lead sludge, then it's safe to say most Camrys will have sludge problem and you will find most Camrys do have it. And you will find the reports everywhere easily, not just those 5 or 10 cases after searching the whole net.
If those 5 or 10 cases have problems even before 50K and it's the design issue, those 2.8799 million Camrys should have the same problem even before 50K just like those 5 or 10 cases. I guess those 2.8799 million Camrys owners are just lucky compared to those 5 or 10 owners mentioned above.