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Comments
oldram51--If yours was a gasket leak then why did you repalce $500 worth of Lower Intake Manifold and Upper Intake Manifold (Plenum)? Again my question is--why is the majority of the posts Bonneville related when the engines went in to other cars and are the same as the Grand Prix? Could it be the water in Kansas (GP) is better the water in Missouri/Mich (Bonn)?
John325--The 1999 Manifolds are not the same as the 1995-1998, so the degradation issue is not there. And don't remember any posts in quanity about gasket leaks.
Lets try some math. I believe Pontiac sells less then 100,000 Bonnevilles as year, of which some (20%?) are supercharged so do not use the Upper Plenum. 1998 Grand Prix sales were about 130,000+ of which some were 3.1 V6s and some were supercharged. 4years at 100,000 and one year at 130,000 is 530,000 (Very High). 2,800 Pontiac dealers. 300 work days per year. 3(+) years of repairs. A 2-3 per day average dosen't look sustainable.
Just raises more questions then it answers.
The proof that there's still something wrong in the design of this otherwise remarkable engine is in my '02 Bonneville having the upper intake manifold replaced at just 17000mls because of coolant leakage. Unfortunately, I'm not alone, with 2 or 3 other participants in this forum having had the same issue in the past month or so.
Yes, it's a $500 service, but only IF the coolant doesn't leak inside the engine, when a new engine is in order: a $1500 to $2500 service.
It's a problem that GM is trying to sweep under the carpet as the problem does exist, yet no TSB has been issued. The reason is the math you made: GM's profits would add up to a loss. Until it's addressed for good, it's OUR loss.
"The proof..is my..", your Upper Manifold was replaced for an external leak not degradation that effected the 1995-1998s. I have seen friends who had their 2000-2001s fixed with just a gasket. So therfore your Upper Manifold MUST have been bad.
Leak 1- Degradation 1995-1998
Leak 2-Upper Intake Manifold Gasket
Leak 3-Upper Intake Manifold
It is possible oldram51 has discovered leak 4 but hasen't posted enough infomation.
GM's 36/36 warranty will catch most of the 2000-2002s with Gasket or Manifold problems (3/50 for Gasket and 7/70 for Manifold in California Emissions Warranty states).
And if it was just a question of profits, wouldn't GM be better doing a $500 repair then offering $3,000+ in rebates?
Since none of us designned or built our cars, it is the age old question of when does it stop being the manufacturers problem and become the owners.
ADDITION: you added a second link while I was responding. Ian talks about what I have been saying about the changed lower manifold, and what it should do. And he goes on to talk about the external leak which as I have been saying is a different leak on your car.
Come on, it is not acceptable that a 15 month old car with just 17000mls on it has any engine problem. Whatever problem it was, manifold warpage or gasket, it's just not acceptable that it hasn't been addressed once and for all since '95.
Why can't the Series II be as bullet-proof as the Series I or as most GM transmissions? Why shouldn't I expect the same level of quality in the Series II as in these two examples?
It's about customer satisfaction. My bottom line becomes GM's when the time comes to replace the Bonneville. Enough said.
I have clasified your manifold as a possible leak source. I have been trying to clarify things by pointing out that there are THREE possible DIFFERENT leak issues involved in our talks. If owners want GM to accept any responsability, shouldn't the issue be identified? We could say that GM sucks (as some do) but where does that take us. We could say GM sealing technology leaves alot to be desired, and we would be closer. If we say that the design of the 1995-1998 lower intake manifolds leads to failure during the mandated California Emissions Warranty period therefore the California Air Resousres board should force a recall or extended warranty, then we have something we can work with. Identify issue, and resolution.
It would be great if our cars never had problems, but as we were recently shown so tragicly, even the best man made items can suffer failures.
I find it perfectly accetable that a failure shows up at 17,000. In fact I hope it would. Isn't that why there is a warranty? Defects in workmanship or materials, that is what a warranty is to cover. The world has settled on 36/36 as being an acceptable time for the blame to rest with the manufacturer. I would rather have it at 17,000 then 57,000 or 87,000 or 107,000.
Perhaps for the recent cars we need to find out if checking and retorquing the manifold bolts keep things strait.
We are all here for the same reason, to share and share alike. Our common thread is our car. What better way to relate. But we need to keep our focus on the correct spot.
oldram51, per the links evandro provided, you have not fixed your problem because you didn't replace the lower intake manifold. How could the dealer not sell you this revised part if they are so experienced in its replacement and know that GM recommends it?
In regards to new car problems, I kind of side w/ Evandro. There's something about a newer car that has terrible problems before even reaching 50k. My mechanic has always advised me to buy Toyota or Honda. And you know, you always hear about them going 200-300k miles without many problems at all.
I took a chance w/ another GM product 18 mos ago, a 2002 Buick Rendezvous, and so far have had my transmission, awd transfer case, & rack and pinion steering changed in the last 30 days, not to mention other more minor-type items. When you fork out $30k for a car, you just don't think these kinds of defects will creep-up. But as you said, thank goodness for the warranty.
When a problem is persistent through a number of years, eg, Chrysler transmissions, GM 3800 engines, Ford Wiring, or whatever, you'd think these huge companies would take some responsiblity and get these things fixed. Perhaps that's asking too much. I know Chrysler still uses the crappy transmissions in their vans that have been going-out for 10-15 years. You wonder how they can do this in good conscience.
I'm pretty sure the next car I purchase will be in the Toyota or Honda families. Our American corporations seem to be more concerned w/ their profits than customer satisfaction. Just my .02. Btw, thanks again for your reply on the '99.
John B.
John325--American car companies might seam to worry more about thier profits because Americans do. Dosen't any American company have to wonder how Wall St and Main St will react to their every move? Perhaps Toyota/Honda would be different companies if they had a $19 Billion unfunded pension liability. Or was required to put over $3 billion in to the pension fund in 2003. Or if they spent over $500 million per year on healthcare for retirees. You are starting to see the rapid new model introduction take a little toll on the Toyota/Honda reputations.
:-)
Having said this, I wouldn't blindly fork my hard earned money on either a Honda or a Toyota just because the legend is that they run for hundreds of thousands of miles flawlesly. As legendary as it sounds, it just cannot be true.
I always try to avoid 1st year model cars exactly because of that. However, the Series II has been out there for years and so has the Bonneville. I never took my Bonneville to the dealer for any repair whatsoever. That a badly designed flimsy plastic part spoils my ownership experience in such an amazing car is a certificate of stupidity to GM brass.
:-P
I did research the Bonneville here on Edmunds and in CR as well, and the rankings weren't bad at all; but their rankings paled when compared to Honda & Toyota. Btw, I almost bought an Avalon, but instead I bought the Bonneville SE. Don't get me wrong, I really like the Bonneville. And so far w/ 65k miles, the only problem I had was a muffler which was changed at about 30k. So, re: the Bonneville, I can't complain.
But when Chrysler, GM, and Ford continue pumping out materials that they know are defective, something's wrong. And I can definitely understand the unfunded pension problems, and multitude of other financial woes that American Corps. are facing. But, as I said before re: the Chrysler transmisions, they've been bad for over 15 years. I would think somehow, somewhere along the way they would correct a bad situation. The same w/ GM and Ford. Unfortunately, the only way the corps. face it head on is when the courts force them to do so, as in the recent case w/ Ford.
My hope is that the car manufacturers somehow improve their quality, so that new car owners are not faced w/ inconceivalbe repairs, ie, evandro's at 17k. Either that, or extend the warranties to something more likely to cover the lack in quality parts/materials.
John B.
Having said this, reliability is not the only criterion I use when shopping for cars. In spite of their record or legend, neither Honda nor Toyota have ever put a grin on my face after driving them. THIS is a fact, at least when the time to put MY money on them came...
;-)
I want a controlled ride (not soft like original). But I don't want bone-shaking rides either.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I've worked with enough foreign owners through my 3 decades that I figured out pride in a foreign car will have people not admit they had problems. Too, earlier the dealers had people so cowered that they had to bring the car in for service every so many miles for lots of money and didn't dare go any where else, foreign owners tended to service the cars better than Amer. owners (70s & 80s) who put in gas and changed the oil when it wouldn't drip off the dipstick anymore. Too the dealeres did some hidden fixes while cars were in for repairs that owners didn't even know they did; that helped the car's image of never having any problems.
I've listened as the Camry buyer had to put new rotors and pads on a 2 year old Camry because of rotor damage already. I've listened to the no start or dead on way to work stories.
I've been monitoring some honda and toyota groups and other parts of Edmunds and find the same tenacious protectionism of the car's image is still there in some owners. I think there must be sales people or company peoplein some groups to keep acting as cheerleaders. I've ridden in them, Accuras on down, and I chose the GM Bonnie/LeSabre type car.
All cars have faults. If you change oil often and before the car needs it, you'll get 200K out of any engine. Don't tell me only honda and toyota cars are built to last. It's the owners. If only CR got the idea...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
(all the same, I checked out the Avalon too & was generally unimpressed with the car and simultaneously appalled at the price point.)
ice
However, my "best overriding resource" is my mechanic who is one of the top mechanics in the SF Bay Area, as well as a personal friend. He's also one of the most honest and fairest people I know. I place more credibility in him than any publication, internet site, etc... And it's he, who really has no axe to grind, that advises folks to highly consider Honda and Toyota. So, one can find fault w/ CR's methodology of coming up w/ their results, but it's funny that it matches the opinions of some of the top mechanics in the field.
I might add, my mechanic did check out my Bonneville and gave it his "blessing" before I purchased it. He had also forwarned me that earlier model years had manifold problems.
As I'm 6'1" and about 225, I prefer a car w/ some room if you know what I mean. And that's the main reason I steered towards the Bonneville and away from the Avalon. And like I said, so far it's been pretty much problem free. I have the oil changed about every 3-4K miles. Maybe I'll be luckly like montanafan, and it'll go for another 100k without any major problems.
John B.
Like you - I have a trusted mechanic. Like yours, mine favours Toyota and Honda - but less the latter and mine tends to be a tad Euro-centric. He practically gushed when he first inspected our Volvo - it turned out to be a lemon and will be my last Volvo ever - and 'twas he who twisted my arm to get the Villager when our thoughts turned to a Minivan. "All the important components are Nissan" said he. Turned out that those were all the components I had difficulty with - a tranny rebuild (before 50k) and a chronic coolant leak topped the list. Ironically, the Ford stuff was bullet-proof.
Go figure.
That experience made me more open to doing something I'd never dream of doing before - actually test driving a US car. Certain makes are off my list because of my perception of reliability concerns (Volvo, Nissan, VW, Chrysler, all Korean marques, etc.).
My first tester? The Aurora. SWEEEEET. Then an Avalon. Not meaning to disparage the Av but it was no contest - the American car was just better executed and more powerful and toss-able (for a large car). Once I checked out the '00 Bonnie, I was sold by the solidity, drive-ability, interior room, intelligent features, and the price point. My mechanic also gave it the nod (of course, after the Volvo and Villager fiascos, I listen a little less to him now).
I've had two small problems with the Bonnie - an LED in the stereo and the height sensor went last week - but she's been otherwise bulletproof. However, it's put me on notice that this car has a lot of electronic features that could be expensive to repair, so I'm talking with my dealer about an ext. warranty - a small expense, really, in the scheme of things.
ice
mfahey1: it would be great if GM did that. But as montanafan pointed out, w/ all the financial challenges facing all car companies, it's not likely to happen, unfortunately...
John B.
I have an SLE - are our radios the same?
ice
When you get yours fixed, maybe you can ask what they did to it. I imagine they'll probably just change-out your radio w/ a new one.
What I ended up getting was probably a rebuilt unit that likely fritzed out on somebody else several months earlier. It looked pretty spanking new when they put it in though.
ice
Funny thing, on the way to work this morning the whole display disappeared completely. I thought maybe I jinxed it by talking about it. But luckily within about 4 minutes or so, it corrected itself. It's just a matter of time before the led takes a permanent nap, I'm afraid. Oh well, If so, I can live w/ that...
John B.
Wayne
that's been towed in 4 times this week.
It runs fine until either a power door
lock or window switch is activated , then it stalls and refuses to start . Lots of spark but
fuel pump does not come on during cranking .
A few hours later it will start .
All lites go dim when these switchs are
pressed . Have gone through Mitchell -on Line
wiring diagrams but don't see any relationship
between these functions . Have checked all
grounds and even wired external ground from
block to frame to battery.
Hoping someone may have seen this before .
thanks for any imput.
Thanks for your suggestions . To-day we found both fuel pump and power door lock relays showing signs of overheating and corrosion ...so replaced them both and also cleaned up some green looking ground connectors , Car started right up and allowed the windows and door locks to operate and still stay running , usually this would cause it to quit . Car ran just long enough to back out of shop and down she went again !!!
Back to square one , good cranking ,lots of spark
but no fuel pump AND all interior lights dim when either doors or windows activated . Will be back at it tommorow ..will post solution when we find it !!! Thanks for ANY input .
I believe the manual shows similar ground in the right kick panel area but I don't remember one on passenger side next to the seat.
I hope you have a service person used to GM electrical work like a GM garage.
It might save time and dollar$ in the end because they're used to where the quirks occur in their models of cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
ice
imidazol97 .. hit it right on with his suggestion of grounding junction under carpet on drivers side ! This was all corroded up and believe it or not , shares grounding with pwr
windows , doors , locks AND fuel pump.
Why G.M. would ever design this wiring is beyond me...the junction sits there ,under the carpet
unshielded just waiting for moisture to work it's way in . Car now runs like a dream.
I would suggest that anyone , out there with this style of Bonneville , Chev ect , especially
in the northern States where snow and moisture
can spill over the edge of your floor mats RIGHT
onto this area, to inspect and clean this junction ,because
as these cars age ..the problem can only get worse .. Rod Mcisaac alphaone@sprint.ca
The mirage of Japanese cars getting good gas mileage is also a reality. Many people think because a Honda Accord 4 cylinder manual trans gets 32 mpg that the 4 auto and 6 auto get better mileage than a Bonnie 3800 auto or LeSabre. Mine gets 32 traveling with air on and 75 average travel speed. It doesn't sound like the Accord topic has that mileage for the 6 cyl auto. But most people think the Honda/Toyota still get better gas mileage like they did in the 80-89 era e.g.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Xavier64- was it the ABS/re-adjusting?
Any help/info is appreciated.
Stephen- good luck with your Envoy!!
Ken- good to hear your 2000 is still going strong.
I'm starting to get used to the 03 GT, but I'm still more and more looking forward to the 04 Bonneville.
Chuck.