Mazda Protege Maintenance and Repair

mazdafun · May 2002

Every 20 to 25 thousand miles is normal. Since you do city driving, you'll replace them at a lower odometer reading than someone who drives freeway. If you decelerate more quickly (i.e. "harder"), this wears the pads more quickly.

Depends on driving style and also the compound in the pads. My '99 is still on the original set at 27,000 miles. I approximate I'm about 50% through. While I do local driving, it's through light traffic and I usually try to drive to maximize economy, so I try to start and stop smoothly and probably a little on the slow side. I do have days where I drive more aggressively though, and I'm sure that doesn't do anything good for the lifetimes of my brake pads or tires.

My '89 got similar mileage out of Mazda pads (about 45-50 thousand miles). Using Albany (a cheap aftermarket brand) pads, I get about half what I used to get out of the Mazda OEM pads, but they cost less than half as much. Replacing the pads on my '89 323 is pretty easy, so I don't mind swapping them out at a wheel rotation.

protege_fan · May 2002

23500 km is only 14,602 miles. Is that still normal? I sure hope not!!

I agree though...it really depends heavily on your driving style.

dancemom · May 2002

Thanks for the input, and pointing out that I'm talking kilometers, not miles. The good news is that the dealership paid the labour and I just had to pay for parts ($90.00) That I can live with.

kaiserhead · May 2002

Your brake pad wear seems a little suspect, I do strictly city driving with my 2000 SE (65,500kms) and I'm still on my original pads. The dealer checked them out about a month ago and said they were still decent. Could the pads be rubbing on the disks or could the disks be warped in one point causing wear?

curt3 · May 2002

Kaiserhead, the TSB you have listed may just be what we have needed, unfortunately my warranty was gone before last Thanksgiving. I do, however, have documentation for the pinging long before the warranty went out. Thanks for the info.

Maltb, I do agree that the sheetmetal on the Ford-built Mazda trucks seems a little thicker but I have to say that these trucks have a generic rental car feel to them. There is a blandness about them that I just can't put my finger on...

There is an old Spanish proverb that goes like this: Aunque se viste de seda, mono se queda. Eventhough the monkey wears silk, it's still a monkey... My fear now is the Ford/Mazda venture in regard to what will replace the Proteges in the near future.

mazdafun · May 2002

I too am concerned about Focus content, given its lack of substance.

Any satisfaction with a vehicle is obliterated if I have to bring it in for service too often.

mazdafun · May 2002

I was wondering about the discrepancy between km and mi figures, but I took your 48,000mi figure.

Have your rotors checked for "runout", which is how non-flat the surface is. If those are OK, I'd suspect the calipers aren't backing off enough when you let off the brake pedal. They may need lubrication, the return mechanism may be defective or the guide pins (sorry, mold-speak) may be bent.

If you drive with your left foot over the brake, as I sometimes do in crowded stop-n-go traffic, you may inadvertently touch the brakes without noticing (as I sometimes do).

mbs7 · May 2002

I have a 99 LX which so far I would label a generally reliable car. However, I would expect any newer car with around 50K miles to still be generally reliable.

Unfortunately, I have had to take the car in to the dealer for a couple of problems. The most irritating problem I've got is that upon acceleration, the engine pings. This has really been driving me nuts over more than a year now. I have posted here before about it, but every so often posting helps me blow off some steam.

Here is the story. I bought the car used in June of 2000. About 6 months later I noticed the pinging. I'm not saying that it didn't ping before that, but I didn't notice it. So, when I took the car in for some scheduled maintenance, I brought up the pinging issue with the dealer. They said they would look into it. When I picked up the car later that day they said they hooked up the car to their diagnostic equipment and no pinging was detected. Being a fool, I thought to myself, "well, maybe I just don't know what a ping sounds like." Of course, the pinging sound was still there.

Being a busy person, I just don't have time to frequent the shop. So I just lived with it for awhile. That is, until one day when the check engine light came on. When I took it in to the dealer they informed me that the mass air flow sensor was bad and that it would be replaced free under warranty. At that time I discussed with them the pinging and I was determined to get them to hear the sound. So, I waited while a mechanic took it for a test drive. When he returned he said he could definitely hear the pinging. At which point, I allowed myself to be suckered into paying $100 for an injector cleaning. You see, I was desperate to make the noise stop and thought $100 was a small price to pay. Later that day I picked up my car, complete with new air-flow sensor and sparkly clean injectors. While the pinging was quieter and less frequent, it was undeniably still there.

That was the last time I was at the shop, and it seems that since then the pinging has gotten progressively worse. I've learned how hard to accelerate so as to prevent the pinging, but it is annoying to have to treat the gas pedal so gingerly. I've tried no-name gas, name-brand gas, 87 octane, and 89 octane. 89 does help and even the dealer recommended that I try 89. Yet, even with 89 the car still pings. I haven't tried 92 (Bay Area gas prices + 92 octane = yikes!) because I know this car is supposed to run on 87 and am worried that 92 won't be good for the engine.

Back as a teenager my friend had a VW bug and I had a 'Vette (Chevette, LOL) and we had the following philosophy concerning funny noises our cars made: "ignore it and hope it goes away." At some level, I now cling to that same old mantra in order to maintain my sanity.

protege_fan · May 2002

Please forgive my ignorance, but what does the pinging sound like? I've heard of it before, but I've never actually heard it.

Just for your sanity, I would try 92 to see if that works. I understand it's expensive, but trying it once shouldn't hurt too much.

Also, I could be way off on this, but what about resetting the ECU by disconnecting the negative battery terminal? Maybe it's screwed up somehow and needs a good reset.

mbs7 · May 2002

Ahh, the joys of trying to accurately describe a noise through the use of written language.

That said, here goes my weak attempt. It sounds like a crackling noise that is DIRECTLY related to the acceleration of the engine. The closest sound I can relate it to would be the sound of a hot water heater. When a hot water heater is heating water you can hear a sort of tick... tick... tick sound which presumably results from the expansion of some heating element. The noise from my car is similar to that, only the ticking is at a faster cadence so as to be kind of a crackling.

As soon as I ease up on the gas pedal, the noise goes away. If I'm cruising down the freeway at constant speed, there is no noise. If I then climb a grade (even just some steeper overpasses) I can sometimes hear it. If I acclerate off the line too hard, that is when the sound is at its worst. The sad thing is I'm not a harsh driver. I don't really have to accelerate hard at all to cross the point of pinging.

Ignorant? Maybe I'm the ignorant one. But I'm fairly sure this is pinging I'm dealing with.

mazdafun · May 2002

Like a ball bearing bouncing around in your engine bay. It's the fuel/air mixture going off prematurely. Higher octane fuel can address it.

If it's not the ECU screwing up, it may be some carbon deposits inside the cylinders. Dirty fuel COULD cause the carbon build-up. This is getting kind of involved (and expensive...about a couple hundred to remove the valve cover and put in a new valve cover gasket since you'll be ruining the old one).

Something else that could easily cause pinging and seems to not have been mentioned is spark gap. This is the space between the spark plug central "hot" terminal and the ground terminal. Too small a gap can cause pinging (quite severe, in fact). I discovered this the first time I replaced my spark plugs. Naive little me put the new ones in, assuming they'd be correctly gapped. Oh boy, did my engine run roughly (pinging, shaking etc.). Luckily, I knew what caused it (since that was the only thing done before it acted like that).

Check it out. It's fairly easy. Gap measurement tools are also cheap. About $1 US for the one that looks like a coin, about $4 for a set of stainless steel "shims" on a keyring that are more accurate. They say to use a gapping tool. I use a flat-blade screwdriver or my pocketknife (I think most MEs have some redneck in them...hey at least I don't use my teeth). The normal range for my '89 323 is 0.032 to 0.034in, I think. I don't know the figures for the current Pro engines are (and there are now 4 of them in NA: 1.6, 1.8, 2.0, 2.0 w/ turbocharger) but the dealer service dept SHOULD be able to tell you.

mbs7 · May 2002

I appreciate the input and am aware of the spark plug and gap issue. I remember my dad using those tools. However, the problem has continued across having the spark plugs completely replaced by the dealer during my 30K maintenance. Wouldn't they get the gap correct? My dealer has a good reputation.

mazdafun · May 2002

But it's an easy thing to check. I'd eliminate it as a suspect cause before moving on to more difficult and expensive stuff.

After that, try resetting your ECU as mentioned before. You'll need to reprogram your clock and radio stations, but that's a small sacrifice if that solves your problem.

I'll check my '89 service manual at home to see if they have a diagnostic chart for engine pinging. Even with the computers etc., internal combustion engines haven't changed THAT much since then. You could check out a Haynes or Chilton or any other aftermarket service manual or guide. They usually have a diagnostic diagram or troubleshooting chart that can help narrow down the likely causes.

mazdafun · May 2002

Wasn't sure if you were aware of the gap issue, but it hadn't been brought up and can easily cause pinging, just as much as fuel that's too volatile (too much alcohol, "winter" mix fuel and so on) or carbon deposits and other things that can create "hot spots" inside the cylinders.

maltb · May 2002

I believe there is an updated PCM if the MAF and de-carb don't do it. Your dealer should have followed through on the repair. In California, the PCM is covered by an extended emissions warranty, so you should be ok there.

mbs7 · May 2002

I appreciate the input and am aware of the spark plug and gap issue. I remember my dad using those tools. However, the problem has continued across having the spark plugs completely replaced by the dealer during my 30K maintenance. Wouldn't they get the gap correct? My dealer has a good reputation.

kaiserhead · May 2002

mbs7: Sounds like your engine pinging may be my mysterious engine rattle. The rattle occurs at the same times you described: upon hard acceleration but not during regular driving. I've only had the check engine light come on once and that (I think) was the result of a loose gas cap as it went away by tightening it. The car has never run rough or stalled, it did go through a time when the engine idle speed would drop but not stall, it hasn't done that since the 30,000 mile service. The dealer did update the ECM program, but they didn't tell me what the change was.

Does anyone know where I can get more info on this engine ping and mass airflow sensor problem? I tried the NHTSA, nothing on the MAFS yet.

On the lighter side, I just dropped by the Ford Focus problems board, man, there's a sorry sight, and I thought I had problems!!!!!

mbs7 · May 2002

Forgive my lack of acronym knowledge, but what does PCM stand for?

kaiserhead · May 2002

Engine Control Module, one of the many computers that run the car.

curt3 · May 2002

MB7, Kaiserhead we have to come up with a secret handshake for this pinging engine club. The mechanics could never hear my ping (death rattle?) nor did their diagnostic tool show any problems. Not all problems, especially emissions trouble will show up on a computer. Sometime just gold old redneck common sense might be the solution...

MB7, if you haven't seen my previous posts I will tell you that my engine is a 1.6L with 64,000 miles. It is my impression that the ping is not appearing until 30,000 miles or so. That is my guess as to why there are so few complaints on this message board concerning the 1.6 L engine.

Mazdafun--you have been doing a great job with suggestions concerning the pinging issue. It may be that we have to consult a OUIJA board or some other oracle to get to the bottom of it.

theparallax · May 2002

I think I am getting that same pinging noise you are talking about. It happens only when accelerating, right before the engine is about to shift to the next gear, especially on hot days. It bugs me really bad because it sounds like something is rattling in the engine bay. I've taken it to the dealer several times but they either say they a)They cannot hear it or b)It's normal.

I'll try putting in 93 octane in the car on my next fill up to see if it will go away.

mazdafun · May 2002

Of course, I figured out eventually that someone was usually moving it around. Hey, I was 10. I scared easily then.

chikoo · May 2002

>>>The noise from my car is similar to that, only the ticking is at a faster cadence so as to be kind of a crackling.<<<

sounds more to me like arcing.....you should check your spark plug wires(for any cracks / leaks) and the spark plug gap.

dsm6 · May 2002

They must have worked for Chrysler at some point. Its the "Sound of Economy."

maltb · May 2002

Powertrain Control Module

Technically, it is the only computer running your car. I have it on fairly accurate knowledge that if it's not the MAF(mass air flow sensor) that is causing your pinging, they have an updated PCM. Beat your dealer up a little about and if they don't know about it, have their technician call Mazda's tech line.

protege_fan · May 2002

The ECU in the Protege is made by Ford. Anybody?

maltb · May 2002

which WAS a Ford company. They have since been split off.

mbs7 · May 2002

curt: "secret handshake for this pinging"
me: "bwahahahaha" Thanks for bringing a smile to my face this morning!

Seriously though, I think it's true that the pinging for me began around 30K miles also. I Bought the car when it had 25K on it and about 6 months later I started noticing it.

I suppose it *could* be arcing, but I'm skeptical that that is the issue. Maybe my description of the sound isn't accurate. Anyhow, I will try all the suggestions I've been given and update the board when I learn something new.

mazdafun · May 2002

You'll see arcing easily enough, if it's there. Don't reach in though. It could get ugly.

kaiserhead · May 2002

I suppose our secret handshake could start as a normal handshake but becomes more vigorous over time until you start to hear the bones on our hands start to rattle, ahhh, whatever!?!?!!?

I tried 93 octane gas today and could not hear the "death rattle." That was in city driving, I'm going to take the Pro for a highway spin on the weekend to see if there's any difference.

For the record, my pinging-rattling started around 30,000 miles.

chikoo · May 2002

if 93 octane works good, then u definitely are in need of a tune up. The timing on ur car are definitely off mark.

mazdafun · May 2002

Checked my '89 323 service manual. Engine noise can be caused by a lot of things. Let's see how much I remember (I'll attempt to rank from easy & cheap to hard & costly):

Incorrect spark plug gap (too small).

Insufficient oil pressure (too little oil, clogged oil strainer, malfunctioning oil pressure sensor, malfunctioning oil pump, loose accessory belt)

[These require removing the timing belt cover]
Timing belt tensioner spring malfunction (could cause "slap" or slack in the timing belt, throwing timing off).
Incorrectly synchronized timing belt.

[These require removing the valve cover, which also requires removing the timing belt cover, I think]
Broken valve return spring.
Incorrectly seating valves (valve pin guide busted or some other component on the valve assembly is busted).
Malfunctioning HLA (hydraulic lash adjuster...could be caused by insufficient oil flow...say, what does this thing do?).
Broken piston rod or piston rod pin.
Broken piston ring.
Broken bearings (anywhere).

Malfunctioning fuel system.

That's all I remember, but it was late when I read through it, so I'm probably missing a few.

mazdafun · May 2002

Here's a link:

http://www.tpub.com/engine3/en3-38.htm

Apparently, this mechanism avoids having to design in gaps to accomodate thermal expansion/contraction in the valve and engine parts.

maltb · May 2002

The '99 and later Proteges use solid lifters with adjustment shims. Go ahead and scratch HLAs off your list.

Somebody above had mentioned adjusting the timing. That is the key to engine knock, but on most late model vehicles, the timing cannot be manually adjusted. The problem that the 99-00 Proteges have is that there is no knock sensor to tell the PCM when to retard the timing.

newcar31 · May 2002

Do the 01-02 Proteges have knock sensors?

maltb · May 2002

yes, they do

protege_fan · May 2002

But I need this explicitly explained: what are the pros/cons of knock sensors?
TIA

dsm6 · May 2002

detect impending knock (pinging), so the PCM can retard timing to avoid knock. That's the pro. I suppose the con would be cost.

libraryuser · May 2002

I bought a Mazda Protege a few weeks ago, and I noticed that the temperature gauge is usually about half way between cold and hot. Is this normal? Gauges on other cars I've owned always seemed to be much closer to cold than to hot.

Thank you for any information! When it comes to cars, my ignorance is definitely not bliss.

protege_fan · May 2002

That is normal.

curt3 · May 2002

Instead of bling bling or blang blang it will simply be "ping ping..."

I am relieved to see so much discussion concerning the topic of engine noise. Mazdafun-I won't bring up the Ouija board for a while...

MBS7 good to hear some laughter...so you did start hearing the ping at 30,000 miles? When I described the sound to my local Mazda mechanic, I explained that the noise resembled the payout of a Pachinko machine, only lighter. Since that analogy did not work, I went on to explain that it sounded like freezing rain on the roof of asingle-wide mobile home...most of us Alabamians have heard this...at least those of us who were conceived in a pool hall.

As my Protege is approaching 65,000 miles very quickly (it's a 2000), I have had the timing belt replaced but I have not had the timing adjusted. Chikoo and Maltb, thanks for the technical information. My local mechanic assumed that I had hydraulic lifters and that they need no adjustment. I will look into this as a possible solution but I really like this idea of a computer update for the car.

puranik · May 2002

I bought my car from Fairbanks Mazda. Needless to say, my experience with them was nothing worth mentioning. In fact, I came out buying the car from looking like a cheapskate. Or thats what they made me feel.

I went to them once again for the first oil change. Thats it.

I go to Delray Mazda for my regular servicing. I did my 30,000 mile service 3 months ago. I mentioned the rattle (or ping) to them. To my horror, they DETERMINED that the noise was coming from my Dashboard. I warned them against opening up the dashboard.

I don't know if you faced it, When the mechanic sits besides me, the rattle is much less than I hear when I am alone. Don't know if it has anything to do with the payload.

Prior to that, I complained every time to them about the noise and every time they said that it was not audible to them.

I switched to 93 octane and it disappeared. Today, I switched back to regular and the moment I stepped on the gas pedal, the unmistakable rattle was back.

I am thinking about talking directly to Mazda about it.

Any ideas?

sandman46 · May 2002

I to went to Fairbanks for a test drive and you're right, not a great dealership. Ended up with a Corolla instead.

kaiserhead · May 2002

My head was *pinging* after a trip to Fairbank's sales department. Good thing for a zero credit rating in the U.S. or I would have walked away with two Proteges!!!

I took the car out for a run on the highway with half a tank of 93 octane fuel. No pinging or rattling, just 106 mean and lean Mazda horses!!! It was cooler tonight than usual, about 72 degrees here in South Florida. Perhaps that has something to do with it?

Puranik: we seem to have the exact same symptoms and problems, I'm planning to take it up with Gunther next month at the next service. I want to arm myself with some information before I go so hopefully we can pool our knowledge of the pinging.

kaiserhead · May 2002

The car has 39,000 miles on it and just went through its 30,000 service. Is it possible that the engine is that far out of tune at such a young age?

chikoo · May 2002

99-00 proteges do not have knock sensors.
so the only reson that you hear pinging with lower than 93 octane fuel is pre-detonation.

What else can cause that? other than timing of the spark?

alcan · May 2002

No such thing as "pre-detonation". Some causes of detonation or pre-ignition are:

- lean air/fuel mixture
- EGR system malfunction (if equipped)
- low octane fuel
- high combustion temperature
- high compression ratio due to carbon deposits in combustion chambers
- engine running hot
- ignition timing advanced too far
- defective knock sensor (if equipped)
- engine control computer software

jneipert · May 2002

I own a '98 Mazda Protege and cannot use any of my locks, including my trunk...has anyone else had this problem? I asked my local dealership and they have never heard of this happening before...if so, what did you do?

curt3 · May 2002

When you say you can't use your locks, are you saying that your key is bent or is your battery dead in your power lock remote?

chikoo · May 2002

http://zhome.com/ZCMnL/PICS/detonation/detonation.html

"Detonation that comes nearer to TDC or slightly after is usually heard as pinging "

Mazda Protege Maintenance and Repair

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