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Should I get second opinion from another auto shop? or take it to air conditioning repair shop?
What are my choices now? Who would give me best and honest opinion?
Please help me.
Dan from SoCal
Lexus A/C compressor will never cycle "on" unless there is enough refrigerant, freon, in the system to maintain the "high" pressure side at a minimum level. Once cycled "on" it will typcially cycle off once the high presssure side has reached a maximum pressure level.
If your compressor does cycle off, typically within minutes, but on initial A/C system startup longer, then the compressor is working reasonably satisfactorily and you should look elsewhere.
The "blend" door, probably.
Another thing to try if your compressor does indeed cycle off.
Move the setpoint all the way down to 65F (max COLD), that's supposed to over-ride all of the sensors and just move the blend door to lock out any heating.
If the above works then have a look at the possibilty of an open cabin temperature sensor, just above the driver right knee.
This sensor being open would indicate that teh cabin is SUPERCOLD already.
You mean by cycling off... the compressor turns off by itself? I haven't tried that. The air is blowing and the compressor kicks in but the air temp is warm. I am pretty sure I set the temp to 65F or lower.
Today, I called a few Auto A/C shops...
They all want diag. fee anywhere from $40 - $150.
I may take it in to them for diag.
In worst case, if it's a bad compressor, I think the part cost for compressor and clutch is close to $1000.
Can I get cheaper part? What are my options?
Thanks for your input guys.
Dan
There is a switch that turns the compressor off once there is enough "reserve" freon in liquid form. And then back on again as teh liquid is depleted, etc, etc, etc.
They replaced the compressor, the dryer, some hose that supposedly took 3.2 hours to change, and one other part. They charged me $800 for the compressor, which I could have boughten for $300 from the same place they did.
Atleast I have peace of mind and a warranty and a cold car here in Phoenix, AZ.
Maybe all I need is more freon?
What are your thoughts?
Dan
AC has been available on cars for 47 years it has changed little in basic design until R134a [1994]and that was very minor.
You have to decide the quality of the components you want to buy since all shops only give a 12/12,000 mile warranty. Are you going to keep the car another year or 6 more!
The labor of changing an evaporator can equal the parts cost. Something like a heater/air mix door can require the whole dash to be removed and take 8-10 hours to replace a $50 part.
Similiar situation with compressors there are different qualities of fully rebuilt to brand new standards, partially rebuilt, cheaply rebuilt, and just barely returned to function but noiser than new units available. And the wholesale price doesn't vary $100 from top to bottom.
Many ac systems are repaired just ENOUGH to function and never meet as new cooling specs.
Many just change the worn out compressor [using the same old clutch] when the evaporator has a small leak that allowed the R12 to leak out slowly overstressing the compressor to failure.....same with leaky o rings at compressor or receiver dryer. Then the higher pressure from the new compressor blows out the evaporator 6-13 months later.
Strange that most wait till the middle of Summer when all shops are busy and rushed and overloaded instead of January when they are begging for business and deals might be cut or at least the time spent might result in a higher quality repair.
When you change any component the system must be vacuumed down to remove the moisture that rushed in: cheapo 10-15 minutes or primo 30, 45 minutes processing is an option. Same with diagnosis rushed or leisurely precise. Same with PAO/PAG oils cheapo or premium with UV dyes, same with o rings [$1 or 10 cent ones].
Worse are the ones who get talked into an R12 to R134a conversion [to save $100 worth of R12]....if you fix the leaks you don't need more R12 but every 4-5 years yet the half assed conversion never cools as well as the oem system.
Spend a little time learning how the system works as you will have AC as long as you drive and the repair cost will reoccur every time especially if you don't do any preventative maintenance!
This preventative maintenance bit is getting "way" out of hand.
Unless your rewired fridge can hit 0-60mph under 7 seconds while it takes you and your luggage to the airport.
Q45man is a valued contributor to this board and while my own personal experience with two LS400s doesn't quite validate his position that one needs to spend upwards of $2k-$3k per year in maintenance to keep them up to spec (let's hear it for long OEM warranties!), I very much appreciate his many valuable, knowledgable posts in many different areas of Lexus repair.
Unlike yours, to be candid.
I mean, Wwest, who else would sue Lexus over the "defective" HVAC system in their early LS, lose the case, buy another Lexus with the same vendor's HVAC system, then complain ad nauseum about the same supposed defects all over again?
And I'll bet that Q45man spends more hours working on Lexus models in a week than all your lifetime, Micky Mouse RX rewiring jobs combined.
But that's just my opinion - yours may differ.
Really significant improvements have been made in automotive A/C to the point that the "dryer" spoken of is really only there to take care of the small amounts of moisture trapped within the system during manufacture.
Now, if a leak develops in teh sysetm or it needs repair for some reason then I would agree wholeheartedly that the dryer be replaced, and then be replaced again within some short period.
But basically I have the same position on preventive maintenance of A/C systems as I do brake systems, if it ain't broke, don't "fix" it!
My analogy to refrigerator and freezers is not perfect, but both have quite thoroughly SEALED systems wherein absent some sort of failure there is no need to "open" them.
Today's freezers and refrigerator's cooling systems seem to be lasting 20 to 30 years, 24/7 useage. Why shouldn't I expect that same kind of service, with NO preventative maintenance, from the Lexus cooling system?
I appreciate both Q45 and WWEST, equally. They are from 2 different camps, and the opposing styles lend objectivity to the site and enrich its content.
To fix when things break is just a style, and there is a good argument for its practice.
To perform extensive preventive maintenance (Above & beyond the call of the manufacturer) is costly & in some cases causes more damage then good. The fact is that your auto will perform better with such thorough maintenance. Just how much will you invest into a 10 year old luxo car with 150k plus miles? when does the concept of drive her until she croaks kick in?
I drained the tranny fluid from my 97 LS 400. My mechanic over filled the fluid, the drain plug was also stripped. I am not sure if it was stripped prior to the fluid drop. In any case I had to change the pan and fluid at dealer to the tune of $500.00 bucks. Now I know you will say my mechanic sucks and he is a moron etc etc. I will however say, I wish I never disturbed the tranny at all.
I have friends who fix nothing, and spend little to zero on maintenance & their cars run fine. I am the anal retentive one constantly tinkering and concerned with all noises and parts replacement etc. I think they pay less overall and enjoy more. I am not about to change though, so it is a matter of personal style.
As for my A/C I have decided to just leave it alone, if and when it breaks I will deal with it.
Auto A/C and home appliances are a apples to oranges comparo. Think of the consistent amps, voltage and use of home apps. not to mention the compressor size. The car is a small belt driven compressor, cools a larger cubic foot area & should do so in short period of time, system sits idle 6 months a year, withstands potholes temperature changes and so many more issues, not a good example.
Enjoy diversity
I don't especially like the term "anal retentive" but I guess that's the term I would apply to myself also with regards keeping my vehicles up to snuff and in perfect working order.
I don't work in the industry, not even remotely, my background is in electronics and for the past 20 years or so that even that trade has been secondary. I guess I have to admit that I "fly" a desk now.
The information you see me put here is information I have gleamed from various sources over the years, and currently, simply because I do want the peak performance and reliability, long term, that I can get out of my vehicle ownership.
I didn't drive two Ford station wagons for over 250K without always performing the "proper" (not frivolous) maintenance.
You seem to be saying the airborne (gaseous water) molecules will find their way into, as a for instance, an inflated balloon.
How did the tech showed you a worn ball joint? I suspected my LS's ball joints were worn as well but had not gotten around to test them. Ball joints are not difficult to replace and you can DIY, and, no, you don't have to replace both sides.
To make a long story short, the concentration of airborne particles in the atmosphere is higher than the concentration of same particles in an AC system (assuming the AC is "clean"). The only significant factor that affects diffusion is the permeability of the system (such as hoses & O-rings). I lieu of that high AC pressure serves to slightly retard the diffusion rate of airborne particles into the AC system, but given enough time, enough airborne particles would have entered the AC system to make the perceived higher pressure inside an AC system worthless as a barrier. However, higher pressure inside an AC system serves to depress the concentration of airborne particles inside the system RELATIVE to the concentration of Freon in the AC system (hint: definition of pressure).
...and yes, airborne molecules will find their way into and out-of any balloon if it is permeable whether or not the balloon is inflated as long as entropy is not as highest level. The laws of thermodynamic applies to any and ALL systems.
No freon, "relatively" outside the system.
If I follow your dissertation correctly the freon will try to get out, and the water will try to get in. Since the freon is under more "pressure" to "get out" than the water molecules are to "get in", it seems I would lose refrigerant at a much higher rate than gaining water and that would be the real determing factor in when to "open" an A/C for "surgery".
And...
Find me an inflated balloon that doesn't deflate long before your theory holds water. If the balloon is porus enough (and it clearly is) for molecules to pass, then the overall pressure will equalize first.
AND...
I suspect that in this case your "given enough time" might be longer than many of us live...
Should I take it back and have them see if they can make it colder and quieter or is that just what happens when you change the compressor?
Please help me to:
-locate the belt: at Lexus dealer, auto part stores..
-are belt quality all the same ?
- how to remove the old belt and to install?
All advices are appreciated.
You'll be surprise at how much water entered a system that was thought to be completely sealed. Former McDonald Douglas studies on the absorption of water in sealed aircraft hydraulic systems indicated that up to 15%(w/w) of water entered the system in 5 years of operation, much of which through rubber hoses.
Viola, Q45man made a good and correct suggestion as to the replacement of dryer and other items as part of periodic AC maintenance. It is up to each individual person to decide when, where and how to do it.
None of the theories I discussed were mine. There were all discovered by well known scientists in their respected fields and had yet been proven wrong. If you applied the laws correctly in the case of the the balloon or any other systems, the observed results would be as predicted.
Hydraulic systems typically run at 3000 PSI and above, with zero atmospheric pressure on the outside of those hoses you bet that after a few hours the fluid will have permeated into the hose. And now as the aircraft descents and atmospheric pressure builds and "pushes" that permeation level back while condensation is rapidly forming everywhere.
15% moisture contamination might even be conservative.
My car goes FAST, but it never flies!
Why do you have all the ac components on a car bolted together with rubber o rings as the seal [ease of asembly] and repair and hoses are for vibration control as the motor mounted compressor rotates as the engine moves....3-4" under torque!
For 30 years evaporator leaks have been traced to moisture reacting with R12 and the lube oil to make acids which eat the aluminum. R12 is a very big molecule. R134a is much smaller so the rubber hoses are better and do not allow as much water in but it still gets in.
All you have to do is cut open the [$75]reciever/dryer and look at the dessicant. It is clumped and worthless after absorbing its limit.
In sealed system the evaporators can last 20-30 years, in cars with out maintenance they are lucky to last 8-10-12 years.
Just trying to inform members of things few AC shops will tell you about, as changing an evaporator is $175-200 max vs an evaporator my be $1000-$1200.
Why are there so many AC repair shops [just like a great number of tranny repair shops]. If owners practiced rigorous preventative maintenance half would go out of business.
Most of our Lexus work involves compressor o ring leaks, bad compressors from running low Freon levels, and evaporator leaks from moisture.
I don't offer PM advice to our 4,000 clients [Infiniti and Lexus] because it would cost the business too much in the long run and every time I do I get accused of pushing unnecessary work! The wait till it breaks mentality.
There are dozens of little tricks which can double the car AC life but they must be done before damage occurs...which means before 60k while its still in warranty!
We have customers who drive a lot [Atlanta] many 90-91 LS400 have over 250,000 miles and a handfull over 300,000....we have 94Q with 255,000 miles and a 90Q with over 400,000.
My personal 90Q has 239,000 miles and the origional 13 year old evaporator and the compressor was changed [retired in July] for a slight noise [most would have ignored but I had a freebie available from a rebuilt then rearended wreck I bought [all new everything including a tranny and thousands of other new items for $1200].
If you have ever worked in a factory or on a ship or driven a semitruck you quickly learn that 3-4% annual mainteance is required if you want something to last 10-15 years and if it cost $50k you better spend at least $1500 per year.
Evaporator demise.
Every day it's used it gets coated with god only knows what, everything that mother nature might throw into the incoming atmosphere, thoroughly coated with moisture, and the highly acidic effluent (that's what causes the horrid odor you oftentimes get from the A/C vents) of all of those millions of microbes breeding vigorously, and yet it fails from the inside out.
RIGHT!
If the fluid exchanges were adequate [in completeness and frequency] you wouldn't have all the powersteering pump and radiator/filler res problems, ac problems.
No dealer shop could stay in business on just the 7.5k, 30k, 60k....etc scheduled services and warranty work...oil changes, tire rotations, washes, even brakes are losers [except for the markup on pads/rotors]...they must struggle till the first units sold get out of warranty then the extra replacement revenue starts to kick in.
From the dealer owners point of view he has been subsidizing those techs for years and now the service department owes the business 3 million dollars.
I think it's going to be a much longer wait than those dealers expected.
2. Power antana's mask won't raise up, but I can hear the motor is running, where I can buy just mask and how do I replace it?
Has anyone experienced this problem before, and is there a fix? I am so frustratd at this point I am ready to sell the car. Oh, by the way, I now have the instrument panel not coming on first thing in the morning. Another Lexus design problem I'll have to deal with to the tune of about $1,000. Needless to say, I am not a big Lexus fan right now.
Anyway, thanks for your help (and letting me vent).
The aforementioned url may be of some assistance to you. Good luck!
did you also replace the cables(spark plug)?
We took the car on a trip from North Carolina to Atlanta, GA the day after I installed it (total round trip of ~650 miles). The car never hesitated during the entire trip (including about 1/2 hour of stop and go on the interstate due to construction), and the annoying problem I was having when I would slightly let off the gas and the RPMs would drop as if I had totally let off the gas is also gone. I was also blown away by the gas mileage. We averaged about 27 mpg!!! I had never come close to that before. This is mainly an around town car, and the best I had ever gotten was 20mpg, with the average being about 17mpg. Needless to say I was very pleased with the car during the entire trip.
Thanks again to paradox_159, Lvangundy at clublexus.com, and roddmod11 for the adjustment procedure.
You could detect that the pump is in the process of failing, maybe, by testing the fluid if you wish.