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Chevrolet/Geo Metro

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Comments

  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    A cylinder compression test is the most valuable test you can run to determine the mechanical condition of an engine. The stock compression pressure on a '92 metro 3 cyl engine is 195 psi. The MINIMUM compression which can be expected to enable it to run properly is 170 psi and it must be at least that much in EVERY cylinder. But a really good engine will be much closer to 195. If your engine does not meet those compression specs; then it will not be possible to tune it to pass smog, or to run smoothly, no matter what you do to it. So that is the first thing to do. Considering how often people write in to this site, and eventually discover that they have bought a car with a trashed motor; I get the sense that practically nobody is running compression tests on Metros before they buy them. And that is just asking for trouble; particularly on a car like the Metro; which is extremely vulnerable to being overloaded, or driven in the wrong gear, and generally being driven unskillfully.

    If your compression turns out to be good, the next areas where the problem might be are in the EGR or the ignition system. If the EGR valve is sticking partly open; it can destroy the idle quality and cause hard starting. So I would remove the EGR valve, thoroughly clean the carbon out of it, and make sure the valve closes completely when it is released. If you are not up to doing this yourself; have a mechanic do it. The vacuum hoses which control the EGR system and the distributor advance (on non XFI models) can also cause problems is the hoses are connected improperly or are damaged or leaking.

    You said the car "sparks good" but this doesn't mean much, if the conclusion was arrived at by just looking at the spark. A spark which looks strong to the eye may actually be weak enough to cause many starting and running problems. The best way to service the ignition system is to measure the resistance of ALL the plug wires with an ohmmeter. Each wire (including the wire from the coil to the distributor cap) must have no more than 1,000 ohms resistance for each inch of length; so an 8 inch long wire cannot have more that 8,000 ohms resistance. If any wire exceeds that specification; replace the entire set of plug wires. The distributor cap and rotor can cause problems if there are any cracks, arc tracks or carbon deposits on the inside surface. Certain cheaply manufactured distributor caps can also cause misfiring, even when they are new and look clean. NAPA parts stores sell the best caps for Metros; under their premium quality line. Some brands of spark plugs (namely NGK) just will not run consistently in the Metro engine. Autolite # 63 and AC Delco # R42CXLS are the best performing plugs in this motor. And the plug gap should be set to .039" Many plugs do NOT come pre gapped; so don't assume the gap does not have to be checked.

    If your car is an XFI model (which does not have a vacuum advance on the distributor), the timing cannot be checked without first disabling the electronic advance by shorting the check connector; as recommended in the manufacturer's instructions for checking the timing. And if your Metro has the distributor with two vacuum advance diaphragms; the vacuum hoses for both those diaphragms must be disconnected and plugged; before you can properly check or set the timing. If you set the timing without disconnecting those advance hoses; it will end up being WAY, WAY too retarded.

    I hope this helps!!!
  • gregg007gregg007 Member Posts: 2
    Just o let you know a "little trade secret with the Geo's or Metros, the Suzuki motors are so much more peppier on 94 octane. I learned this many years ago when I purchased my first Chevy Sprint convertible. A Suzuki mechanic told me to use only Chevron 94. its way more expensive but guess what, you get the added guts to go up hills with no problems and you get better gas mileage because this fuel burns slower than the regular, giving you more bag for your buck...keep on driving and repairing them..they are the most fuel efficient and reliable vehicles ever bought....I still have a 91 Firefly convertible and I will never part with it...just remember the Chevron 94 supreme plus...you will be amazed.....
  • gregg007gregg007 Member Posts: 2
    I did, they were low profiles and really nice. they actually saved my life in an accident where I was broadsided and the only damage was the rim ...
  • vanillalattevanillalatte Member Posts: 70
    I agree so very much indeed.
    Even if it's more expensive, when everything is tallied, I get 120 Km for free compared to using regular.
    My 94 sedan has the XFi cam and a final drive gear set from a 4cylinder. I get phenomenal gas "milleage".
    I also own a convertible, that I will never sell, but it now sports for the summer, the complete drive train from a turboed Firefly........you got to live a little....Hum....this sounds so right!
  • alniteralniter Member Posts: 8
    Hi all,
    I just replaced the back half of my Metro exhaust (from resonator to muffler). The replacement I found is in two parts instead of one: one pipe is flanged for the other to slide into it halfway back, just by the back of the rear tire. It came with a U-bolt type exhaust clamp, but every week or so I check it and the pipes are pulling out, the clamp isn't holding. I'm not sure I can get it tighter, but is it not tight enough? Or is there another way to keep the one from shaking loose and sliding out? I'd rather not have it come apart and cause my car to do a forward flip if I can help it.

    Any insight is appreciated, but go easy on me, I'm a newbie to this DIY thing....

    Thanks,
    Steve in Florida
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    If the muffler is not supported properly and isn't held in place by the factory mounts and hanger straps; this could cause the muffler to droop and the pipes to consequently separate. Similarly; there typically is a support bracket on the connecting pipe, which attaches to a hanger strap. If this strap has been left off, it can cause the same problem. In any case, the factory muffler support system should hold the muffler in place, even if the pipe becomes disconnected. So it sounds like the system on your car is not being supported properly. If the original muffler has been replaced with a generic one; it is very likely that the aftermarket muffler does not have supporting brackets. (The stock Metro muffler is unique, in its support bracket design). In that case; you'd either have to get a muffler shop to weld support brackets on the muffler, and install flexible hanger straps from the brackets to the mounting points on the body; or you could jury rig a supporting arrangement from heavy wire or sheet metal.

    The important thing about mounting exhaust systems is that they MUST be flexible enough to allow for movement of the pipe; which often becomes as much as an inch or two longer from expansion when it heats up, and also needs to swing from side to side as the engine moves on its mounts or the car body sways. For this reason; muffler hangers are usually made of a heavy woven material (sort of like an industrial strength belt). You can buy muffler hangers in a variety of lengths and sizes from most auto supply stores.

    The professional way to stop the pipes from separating would be to have them welded together; but you could also do it by adding a second U-bolt clamp next to the present one. In order to prevent sliding, those clamps should be tightened enough to slightly crush the flange. This may require a long ratchet handle and a socket; rather than using short handled open end wrenches. But please bear in mind that if the muffler or pipe is rigidly mounted; the sliding joint may be an indication that there is no other place to absorb movement or vibration. If you weld pipes together in such a situation; the stresses will then be applied to the internal welds or seams in the muffler; which will typically lead to the muffler coming apart.
  • michaelslemingmichaelsleming Member Posts: 1
    is 650 a good deal for a 93 geo ac works
  • vanillalattevanillalatte Member Posts: 70
    For the air conditionning? Too expensive.
    Of course after reading carefully the description of your car I would say: GO FOR IT!

    Just pour in some windshield washer and HIT the road.
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    edited March 2010
    Ah; it would be so wonderful if you could just decide whether or not to buy a used car based solely on the price. But sadly; there is a WHOLE lot more to consider (especially if you are not able to replace engines yourself, like Vanillalatte does). If the motor needs replacement (which can only be disproven by running a compression check on all the cylinders and confirming that ALL the cylinders have more than 170 pounds of compression (and preferably 195 psi, like they did originally) a properly rebuilt motor will cost at least $1,300 plus shipping (from hiperformer engines in Spokane, WA). So if the motor was shot; it would bring the price of this car up to $1,950 plus shipping for the motor and the cost of having the motor installed. And then you'd need to see whether the brakes need repair; whether the clutch needs replacement (if it is a stick shift); whether the manual or automatic transmission is bad; or whether the alternator, the radiator, the water pump, or the shock absorbers are gone. Do you get the picture?

    That is why the only way to sanely determine whether it is worth $650 to buy a 17 year old Geo Metro is to first have it thoroughly inspected and evaluated by an experienced, honest, and qualified mechanic; or by a diagnostic center like the AAA has in most metropolitan areas.

    Even the most wonderful, economical model of car can become a dreaded albatross around your neck; if the particular one you buy has been neglected or mistreated badly enough. SO BE WARNED.
  • ggeeooggeeoo Member Posts: 94
    Lucky for you. I had bought a 1994 Geo Metro used from Enterprise rent a car
    for 5,995.00 back in 1996. It was son's car so I learned a lot. While in Med school
    in Berkley he had the same problem. It turned out that the "L"Bracket that holds on the Alternator with 3 -14 mm machine bolts was cracked. Thus the Alternator was not
    perfectly in line thus a whine and burnt rubber smell. Got a used one at Pick Ur Part
    Junk yard. Also grabbed the Alternator which turned out to be original actually
    MADE IN JAPAN. It was quick work to take the "L" Bracket off and replace mine
    had a hair line crack at the bolt area. Problem solved! Take yours off strong light
    give it a good visual get a T square and check it very carefully. It is made of thin
    sheet metal no wonder why it cracks!
  • jimmyv66jimmyv66 Member Posts: 2
    I have just recently had problems with my 92 Geo Metro XFI 1.0 liter to where it was blowing white smoke out the exhaust. I figured it was the head gasket and beings there was 280,000 miles on the engine I went and took the head to a machine shop to have it compression checked and the valves all replaced. After putting everything back together it is still pushing the water thru the exhaust. when putting water in there is no heat also, would the heater core cause this or what could it be? Any help much appreciated.
  • pipemanpipeman Member Posts: 58
    When you removed the head, how come and how you was able to check the compression?
    Did you check the compression before removing the head?
    What was the numbers from 1 to 3?
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    I don't know what kind of "compression check" the machine shop did with a head that was not attached to the engine; but it obviously wasn't accurate. There are two types of tests that they SHOULD have done. One is a test for cracks in the head. This test is usually called either Magnaflux or Zy-Glo. It will reveal cracks which are too small to show up on a compression test; but are still able to leak substantial amounts of pressure or water (particularly after the engine warms up). The other test they SHOULD have done is to check the head for warpage. This is done by mounting the head on an absolutely level plate, and running a dial indicator over the gasket surface to see how much variation in height there is. Another way to do this is to set the head up in a surface grinding fixture, and take an extremely light cut off the gasket surface (something like .002") If the head surface is true; the cut will remove metal evenly from the entire head. But if the cut does not clean up the entire gasket surface; then additional cuts should be taken, until the entire surface is flat. If the head is warped (which is extremely common, when checked precisely enough) a new head gasket is highly likely to leak. That is why resurfacing is almost a given in quality head reconditioning operations.

    The fact that there is no heat from the heater indicates that either there is a large air pocket trapped in the cooling system, which prevents the water from being pumped through the heater core; or that the water is leaking so rapidly into the cylinders that it cannot be pumped through the entire system.

    If the head has been resurfaced; and a substantial amount of material had been removed; the head bolts will then sometimes bottom in their threaded holes before the head has been tightened enough to compress the gasket. And that will cause massive water leakage into the cylinders. There are two ways to deal with such a situation: One is to remove all the head bolts, and run a bottoming tap into each bolt hole; to clean up the lower portion of the threads. The other way is to install a flat washer under the head of each bolt; which is thicker than the amount removed from the head surface. This will prevent the bolts from bottoming.

    And, of course, a torque wrench MUST be used to tighten the head bolts to factory torque specifications; in the recommended tightening sequence. And any trapped air must be bled from the system (either by opening a bleed valve; when there is one. Or by loosening the highest radiator hose connection and adding more coolant until all the air escapes.
  • iluvmygeoiluvmygeo Member Posts: 5
    wow I am amazed my 97'Geo metro only has 45,000 miles, and I was thinking about selling, but if it has that many miles left in it , guess I should keep it around a bit longer ! Good luck solving your problems..
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    edited March 2010
    Eighteen years ago, I bought a 2 year old 1990 Metro 3 cyl 5 speed with 58,000 original (mostly freeway) miles on it. The owner had used only Castrol full synthetic 5W-50 ever since it had been broken in. He also added an Amsoil super fine bypass oil filter in parallel with the stock full flow filter. I have religiously continued always using that same brand and grade of oil, changed oil and filter every 7,500 miles; plus changing the bypass filter every 22,500 miles. In the years since then, I have driven this car another 240,000 miles (making 298,000 miles total). The engine has never required any internal repair (except replacing a front crankshaft oil seal and 3 timing belts). The original clutch, shocks, struts and rear brakes are still on the car. The alternator has only been replaced once. The original water pump was replaced for the first time last year. And, with a little special tuning; the nearly 300,000 mile motor now has more power and is more responsive than it ever has been. This is absolutely the best, most reliable, and most economical car I have ever owned. I hope to keep it for the rest of my life.
  • ravenskylarravenskylar Member Posts: 7
    Just want to start of saying Im a Geo Lover. Have had my 94 (2 door, hatchback) Metro since 96, and will not trade it till it finally dies-I love my little putter! :blush: My family calls it my roller skate. I need help tho. There is a black plastic piece on the rear of the car between the hatch and the bumper which has the "GEO" logo on it. Mine has finally cracked, again, and now I have been unable to find a new one. It would probably be easier if I actually knew what the name of the part was-does anyone know? I have already checked at all the local salvage yards, Which is where my last 3 came from, but no luck-anyone have any ideas?
  • vanillalattevanillalatte Member Posts: 70
    Go hither:
    http://www.teamswift.net/

    I'm sure that you will find one. In fact I'm going soon to a place that has loads of parts.
    For your info: Suzuki and Geo are the same. Austalia parts site have one with added brake lights. Expensive but.....nice.
    If I find one I'll contact you here. Keep visiting.
  • ravenskylarravenskylar Member Posts: 7
    Wow, Thanks-That would be great! Ive been looking for one for over 6 months now with no luck, was going to give up.
  • ggeeooggeeoo Member Posts: 94
    I bought a 1994 Geo Hatch back for my son when he was 16 when he was 29
    we gave to Arnold for 1,000.00 . I too had the logo plastic crack. I super glued
    it together at first then after awhile it cracked again. Then I got a piece of wood
    and made a new logo by burning engraving it. :)
  • ravenskylarravenskylar Member Posts: 7
    Yeah, I posted as a wanted item on craigslist and someone actually had it!-Thanks for your help tho.
  • ravenskylarravenskylar Member Posts: 7
    Need help please. Have a 94 automatic 1.0L Metro Hatchback-Problem is with it starting. When I drive it for a while, stop, and then try to restart it after 10-15 mins-it wont start!-but I will have all dash lights, radio, heater, ect. It doesnt even crank, theres nothing going on. I then have to wait 30-60 mins to be able to get it to start again. If im just driving it around town stopping here and there, it seems to have no issues. I have replaced the starter, and there have been no problems for about 3 months, but it just started doing it again. If there are 2 people available, I can get it started by holding something metal on the solenoid, while starting the car. Any ideas?? In the same boat as everyone else right now, so cant really afford to take to a shop to have it looked at, so any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks :confuse:
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    edited April 2010
    I assume that by "holding something metal on the solenoid" you mean that you're shorting power from the battery cable terminal to the solenoid terminal which normally connects to the wire from the ignition switch. By doing this, you're effectively bypassing both the ignition switch and the neutral safety switch. So, if this consistently enables the starter to function; it means that either the ignition switch starting contacts or the neutral safety switch contacts are developing excessive resistance when the engine has recently been run. This is usually the result of age and wear on those contacts.

    The neutral safety switch is wired in series between the ignition switch starting contacts and the starter solenoid. The purpose of that switch is to prevent the starter from being activated when the transmission is in gear; but to allow starting when the transmission is in either Neutral or Park. Since neutral safety switches usually have separate contacts for the neutral and park positions; it is often the case that one of those contacts goes open, while the other one is still functioning. So I suggest you try starting with the shift lever in neutral, and see if it will start consistently there. If it does; that would be a zero cost fix for this problem.

    If I remember correctly, the 1994 Metros had a short lived, infamous safety device which prevented the starter from running when there was a weight on any of the seats, and that seat's seatbelt was not buckled. So you also might try keeping all the seat belts buckled; regardless of whether or not the seat is occupied. Some of those weight sensors will activate from vibration or from very small weights (like a book) placed on the seat. I believe the seat weight sensors can be deactivated by disconnecting their plug, which is underneath each seat. There may be more than one plug under a seat; so you need to find out which one is the right one.

    The neutral safety switch (http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=444747) has many different wires on it, which serve many different functions; and would thus be intimidating to bypass. I would recommend against trying to do so.

    You can rig up a professional grade means of bypassing both the ignition switch start contacts and the neutral safety switch, by buying a 10 amp, 120 volt pushbutton switch at a hardware store, mounting it in a convenient location within reach of the driver's seat, and connecting it between the battery positive terminal and the small blade terminal on the starter solenoid; where the ignition switch wire normally attaches. This will require long connecting wires (I recommend buying at least 10 feet of 12 or 14 gauge stranded, single conductor electrical wire) Large hardware stores ususally carry that type of wire in bulk rolls, and will sell you as much as you want. It is much cheaper to buy bulk wire from hardware stores than to buy prepackaged wire from auto parts or electronic supply stores. You can run the wire from the underhood area into the passenger compartment by poking small holes through the grommet in the firewall around the speedometer cable, or other similar cables. The safest way to connect the wire to the starter is by crimping a female quick disconnect terminal to the end of the wire; after first stripping off about 1/4" of insulation from the end. Disconnect the stock ignition switch wire from that solenoid terminal, tape it up, and leave it unused. This type of connection will require using the push button for starting all the time, but it will eliminate the need to be cautious about never pushing the button while the ignition switch is turned off (which could have damaged the system by sending power back up the ignition switch wire; if the ignition switch wire had not been removed and was still connected to the starter).
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    Sounds like a good deal. Unfortunately, I believe that car sale posts are prohibited on this site. You might do well with Auto Trader or Yahoo.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Good point. The forums cannot be used to sell vehicles, but as you point out, Auto Trader is available right on the front page of Edmunds. Just click the Home link at the top of this page and you'll find the Sell Your Car link in the Used Cars section on the top center of the home page.
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    And if you're like me; and just hate to spend money for a service which can also be had for free; try Craig's List or Kijiji (which is still called by that name in Canada; but is now called ebay classifieds in the U.S.).
  • iluvmygeoiluvmygeo Member Posts: 5
    Thanks everyone, sorry I did not realise my mistake on the advertising...looks like it will be traded at the dealer...
  • keithsrhkeithsrh Member Posts: 1
    i have a 1993 1.0liter and my check engine flashes one time then five times one time then 5 times. then it flashes one time then 3 times but mine has done that since i bought it i didnt use a paperclip and it only idles choppy
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    The two codes you are getting (13 and 15) mean that the MAP sensor reading does not change from engine startup to run mode; and that there is no vehicle speed sensor signal. This may be caused by disconnected or defective components, or by wiring harness problems, or by bad ground connections at the ground point on the back of the intake manifold.

    Regardless; the CEL should not be flashing codes when it is not deliberately put into diagnostic mode. So this sounds like someone else may have left a paper clip or jumper in the check connector (or else there is a wiring short at the check connector).

    Try disconnecting the battery for two or three minutes and turning the headlight switch on during some of that time, then shut the lights off and reconnect the battery. This should clear any stored codes in the computer. If the CEL keeps flashing; there is a wiring problem related to the check conector.
  • myjennycarmyjennycar Member Posts: 5
    Bought my 1998 metro with 35000 miles on it 5 years ago on ebay for $1400.
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    Hiperformer engines, in Spokane, WA is the best source anywhere for remanufactured Metro engines. They have premium quality workmanship, come with a 7 year, 100,000 mile warranty, have some of the lowest prices in the country; and will ship anywhere in the US for a very attractive price. www.hiperformer.com Call the number on their website for details; their engines require some of the external parts transferred from the old motor.
  • myjennycarmyjennycar Member Posts: 5
    My '98 Metro 1.3 ran fine until I replaced the oil pan (which a rock kicked a micro-hole in, causing a very bad leak). Now, with the repaired pan re-installed, the car cranks over, I can smell fuel from fuel injectors, but NO spark. Will not start of course. Yes, I reconnected the oil pan sensor, and the 4 wire sensor array going to the exhaust pipe O2 sensor (California car). How do I get this little gem to start back up and running?

    Okay, from all I have now read a faulty O2 sensor would NOT cause my car to just not start. So I am back to my original question. Only thing I did was replace the oil pan. Only connections I unhooked were the O2 sensor near the catalytic converter, and the oil pan sensor. Why has the ECU shut sown the ignition? How do I reset it?
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    In order to solve challenging auto puzzles; it is necessary to go beyond preconceptions and assumptions; and re-examine what you saw, as well as searching for what you might have overlooked or not have noticed, along with reconsidering whether what you think may be the only possible cause is REALLY the only possible cause. One good way to start would be to analyze whether the "no spark" observation is really true all the way back to the coils; or whether it only affects one of the two coils. Check for spark at each of the coils by leaving one plug wire connected to a plug in the motor, connecting the other plug wire from that coil to a clean spark plug, and clamping or tying the plug so that its metal body presses against a metal part of the cylinder head. Then crank the starter while watching for spark between that plug's electrodes. IMPORTANT; This test will not work if the second plug wire from that coil is not connected to a spark plug in the engine. If one coil produces sparks, while the other does not; either the coil, the plug wires, or the ignition module is defective. You can often interchange coils and wires to sort this out.

    If there really is no spark from either coil; check for 12 volts at the power wire to the ignition module when the key is on. There might be a blown fuse or a bad relay. If there is no spark at either coil, but there is 12 volts at the ignition module; the camshaft position sensor may have gone out, or its signal wire could have been broken or disconnected.

    It is also possible that the timing belt has broken or jumped out of position while the motor was being worked on. This is surprisingly commmon. Checking the compression in all cylinders is a crude way to confirm that the timing belt is properly aligned. Compression of less than 160psi suggests that the belt may have jumped or broken.
  • myjennycarmyjennycar Member Posts: 5
    Very thoughtful answer. I did in fact do the spark plug/plug wire test already just as you describe. Nada. One note, these are not coils per se but rather coil modules for electronic spark. Tomorrow I will check the 12v at the ignition module. I have already tested ALL relays and fuses in all three fuse locations. All are good. The camshaft position sensor or its signal wire will be my next territory to examine. Although the timing belt issue or compression possibly could be involved, I seriously doubt this simply because immediately prior to repairing the oil pan the engine ran beautifully. It just makes no sense for a changed oil pan, oil, and oil filter to have provoked a catastrophic failure in those two areas. Yet, I will check them all the same. By the way, I put a code reader on the ECU harness and it came up with "0 ERROR CODES". I know the reader works properly cuz we used it on my buddie's car and found a problem he didn't even know was developing and got that repaired! Gotta get to work Thursday, so I need this car running! Thanks for your help. I'll let you know!
  • myjennycarmyjennycar Member Posts: 5
    zaken1
    Just a little note for you in case you see some other goof like me create the same problem. I found my solution on another Geo forum. Check it out:

    Dear mwebb!
    You saved my sanity!
    I have been racking my brain trying to figure what the heck was going on with my 98 metro 1.3 not starting after i repaired my oilpan! A rock kicked a micro-hole in it causing it to leak oil badly. I removed the pan, repaired the hole, put on a new oil filter, a new gasket with new rtv sealant all around. Great, done, but the car won't start. Couldn't figure this out for the life of me until I came upon your forum comment where in you said

    "another view
    note spark does not begin until a voltage threshold is crossed in CMP and CKP
    so
    it is possible that a CKP or CMP sensor does output AC voltage , but that the amplitude is TOO low for the ECM to see it
    causing
    no start OR stall

    an example is when those who do not know better replace oil pan gaskets with a Cork gasket instead of RTV [note:WHICH IS WHAT I DID!]
    distance to CKP from the toothed wheel is TOO great and CKP amplitude is TOO low
    Engine has no spark no fuel"

    Thank God he wrote for the last three lines he posted, it SO solved my problem!! Good man!!
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    Glad you found the problem; which is a new one to me. Thanks for the details. A minor correction here is that the dual outlet coils used on this motor are not "coil modules for electronic spark." A coil module is a device which contains electronic components such as transistors, capacitors, ICs and resistors; that are used to control the switching current to the coils. On your car; the module is separate from the coils, and the coils are just conventional coils with two secondary outlets. This type of coil may be unfamiliar to folks who've mostly worked on older cars, but they've been used on twin cylinder Harley and Japanese motorcycles for many years (where they were originally used with breaker point ignitions, and later were used with electronic modules); and more recently have been used on certain GM V-6s and V-8s (three dual outlet coils on a V-6, and four dual outlet coils on a V-8), on Mitsubishi Eclipses, on Mazda rotary engines, on some Mercedes models, and on many other motors. On vehicles with electronic ignition (whether using single or dual outlet coils) the coil module is sometimes located in a metal housing which may be attached to the coils or mounted nearby. But the coils will always be plastic, while the module is a separate container that could either be plastic or metal. Modules are not normally molded into the coil housing (except for the eight single outlet coils on some late model GM LS6 performance motors).

    The common practice of confusing electronic coils with modules particularly irks me; because it seems to be very prevalent among employees at salvage yards; which results in them mispricing single and double outlet electronic coils as if they had modules in them. This forces customers of those places to pay twice as much for an electronic coil as it really is worth.
  • myjennycarmyjennycar Member Posts: 5
    zaken1
    Duly noted about the coils. Good info! Dropped the pan today, took off the newly added gasket, replaced with rtv, then re-installed the pan. Guess what.... VAROOOOOM said Jenny when I turned the ignition key. So moral of the story is:

    ON METRO/SWIFT/FIREFLY CARS NEVER USE ANYTHING OTHER THAN RTV SILICONE SEALANT AS A GASKET FOR YOUR OILPAN!

    NO CORK OR ANY OTHER OILPAN GASKET BUT RTV SEALANT, OR YOUR CAR IS DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    Fortunately for most of the Metro owners on this site; a crankshaft position sensor was not used in 1988-1997 models; so they are not subject to this problem. These sensors were only used on 1998-2000 3 cyinder motors; and 1998-2001 4 cylinder motors. Basically; any Metro that has a single coil will not have a crankshaft position sensor; but cars with more than one ignition coil will have a crankshaft position sensor.
  • jeaarthurjeaarthur Member Posts: 3
    I have a 1992 Metro, when it gets to about a 1/4 tank of gas, it starts surging like it is running out of gas. Fill it up and it runs great. Does anyone have any idea of why it is not picking up the fuel when the fuel tank is low? Any help would be appreciated.
  • vanillalattevanillalatte Member Posts: 70
    One probable cause is that you have accumulated vacuum in the tank as you use up the gas. Check it out by undoing your cap. If you hear a hissing noise, that's the problem.
    Check out the rubber lines for any blockage, including those going to the charcoal canister (if you have one) check the cap also.
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    The vapor control systems in modern cars (including the Metro) are designed to work with either pressure or vacuum in the tank, without interfering with the fuel delivery. I often hear hissing when removing the fuel filler cap on my Metro; and sometimes hear pressure being released when the cap is removed; but my car (and all the other cars I've serviced with vapor control systems) has no surging problems when the fuel level is low. It is unfortunate when people try to analyze problems without adequately understanding the limits and normal functioning of these systems; because it often results in wrong conclusions and false rumors, along with leading to unnecessary and illegal modifications of emission controls.

    The problem you describe is most likely caused by a clogged fuel filter. When the fuel filter becomes restricted, it will flow less fuel when the fuel level in the tank is low, which leads to a lean mixture condition. The fuel filter on your Metro is located underneath the car, on the driver's side, just in front of the rear wheel. This filter has a metal cover below it, which is held on by two bolts.
  • ravenskylarravenskylar Member Posts: 7
    Okay still having an issue with starting. Now if it wont start, i figured out if i continue to repeatedly turn the key on over and over, that it will eventually start. sometimes it will start after about the 10th turn, sometimes it takes many more. any ideas what this would be???? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    Did you ever read the answer I posted to your question on April 8th; the same day you posted the question? You can find it at: zaken1, "Chevrolet/Geo Metro" #1759, 8 Apr 2010 12:49 pm#MSG1758

    In that answer, I listed several different possible causes for your problem. From your post today, it sounds like you either didn't even read that answer; or didn't bother to test the things I mentioned. In order for me to help you; you'll need to communicate better: I need to know whether you tested the items I mentioned, and what the results were. Otherwise; it would be a waste of my time to keep writing the same things over and over again. THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM IS ONE OF THE THINGS I MENTIONED.

    If you don't know how to test the items I listed, please tell me so, and also let me know whether you have a volt-ohmmeter or a 12 volt test light, and whether you'd be willing to follow instructions about how to test these items. There is no magic way I can tell you which part is causing this problem without having the information about the results of testing them. If you're not willing to go to the trouble of testing these things; then you're wasting your time and my time by posting questions on this site. The only way this problem can be fixed is if you do what it takes to fix it; or you take the car to a shop and pay a mechanic to fix it. NOBODY can tell you what is causing the problem without either you or them testing parts. The information you have already posted is neither complete or specific enough to sort out all the possibilities. There are too many possible causes to make it practical to just guess about a solution.

    If you haven't signed up to receive e-mail notices when someone posts a new response in this forum; you'll never know when someone answers your question (unless you regularly look through all the posts, or look at your original post to see whether any answers to it have been posted). If you don't know how to sign up for e-mail alerts about new posts; ask the forum host: http://www.carspace.com/pf_flyer

    Please post a response to this message.
  • vikasintlvikasintl Member Posts: 26
    I have 1994 geo metro manual 3 cylinder and it has intermittent rough idle ....you mentioned in above response that "There is no adjustment for the idle speed on that engine. There is a stop for the throttle linkage, which is held in place by a lock nut. But that is not intended to be moved. Moving that stop will upset the air/fuel ratio, and will require resetting both the computer's throttle switch and the idle air bypass screw. And if that is not done, it will create a chronic rough idle. "
    now my question is ...how to reset computer's throttle switch and idle air bypass screw? because one mechanic moving this stop for throttle linkage...to increase idle speed because he thought that low idle speed is cause of rough idle.
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    Whoa, there! Before it is appropriate to start messing around with the factory sealed idle speed and mixture settings; it will first be necessary to determine whether the motor is in good enough mechanical condition that it can be expected to idle properly. To do this, the cylinder compression must be tested and the results written down, and compared to the factory minimum allowable specifications. Then the ignition timing must be checked and adjusted to 6 degrees BTDC by using a strobe light; while the electronic advance circuit is temporarily disabled by shorting the check connector terminals together. And after that, the spark plug cables must be tested for their resistance and the spark plugs inspected to determine their brand, part number, gap setting, and insulator cleanliness. Only after all those things are done, will it be possible to successfully adjust the factory sealed idle settings.

    If you want to go through this process; buy a compression tester, or pay a mechanic to test the compression in all the cylinders, and post all the pressure readings here. I'll then tell you whether the compression is good enough to proceed further; or what must be done to make the compression right.
  • vikasintlvikasintl Member Posts: 26
    Thanks, first of all am not sure our car has factory sealed idle setting or it has idle screw...how do I check that? I read in haynes manual that only upgraded emissions in 1994 models had factory set idle settings and our car is 1994 3 cylinder but not sure if it has upgraded emissions...and I don't see any thing under hood that says veci....

    I have had a compression check...and surprisingly it was showing 60 in all cylinders and the way car runs I could not believe it could be true so I have had a mechanic check and he said nothing wrong with compression..he said it is around 120 in each...not uneven.....

    spark plugs and spark wires, distributor and rotor, air filter, fuel filter is recently changed....spark plugs were purchased from napa and it has gap of .042 and it is ngk brand...and part no. 7133....

    let me know if you want more details...

    please advice...
  • ravenskylarravenskylar Member Posts: 7
    I m sorry I didnt see that you had posted a response-I was set up to receive them, but they went into my spam folder, I happen to find it by the date. Thanks so much for your suggestions-they were very much appreciated. Here are the results so far- I have tried starting it in neutral, but no luck there. It doesnt have the saftey device with the weight sensors in it (thank goodness) I had that issue in my last metro. I will try bypassing the ignition switch tonite when I get home and see if that works. I may have additional questions on that, but wont know till I actually get under the hood. Thanks again.
  • ravenskylarravenskylar Member Posts: 7
    I went and bought a 12 volt test light, and would be more than happy to do the tests, if you will let me know what I need to do.
  • zaken1zaken1 Member Posts: 556
    After you read this; you'll be able to see why I ask so many questions; and why I don't trust the opinions of other experts who post on this site, nor the opinions of other mechanics (who ought to know better, and ought to learn how to read manuals.)

    As soon as you posted the comment that your car idles roughly, and that some mechanics have worked on it and were not able to smooth it out; I knew that this is a compression problem. But I wanted to have it proved; because I sometimes am wrong. The factory service manual lists the compression pressure for the 3 cylinder Metro of this era. The compression of a new motor is originally 195 psi (which is about 40 pounds higher than most other motors). The factory manual also lists the lowest allowable compression pressure with which the motor can run properly. The minimum allowable compression pressure in this motor is 156 psi (which is 20% below the standard figure for a new engine). 20% below normal is a standard that I have also learned when I first took auto shop courses; and I later taught my students this same standard in 2001; when I taught engine theory at Motorcycle Mechanics Institute. So this is not something I have imagined or guessed about. It is a hard and fast standard which was universally adopted by auto manufacturers after years of experience. When the compression in an engine drops to more than 20% below the new figure; it becomes impossible to adjust the engine to run properly. And poor idle quality is the most obvious sign that this has happened. The fact that the compression is even in all the cylinders does not eliminate the requirement that it also must be higher than the minimum allowable limit. What the evenness does mean is that the compression leakage is probably not so much from the valves and cylinder head; but instead is probably leaking past the pistons and rings. When valves burn; the compression usually becomes uneven between cylinders. So, my friend; your Metro's engine is worn out.

    In a situation like this; any attempts to tune the engine to run more smoothly are likely to upset the delicate balance by which it keeps running at all. And this usually will make it run much worse, or quit entirely. THIS IS WHY I WANTED YOU TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS; BEFORE TELLING YOU HOW TO ADJUST THE IDLE SETTINGS. So, if you intend to keep driving this car without overhauling or replacing the motor; I would strongly urge you to leave well enough alone by not messing with the adjustments.

    If you can afford to fix it, and thus gain a motor that will run much better and use far less fuel than it ever has while you owned it; and will also keep running well for many years to come, my best advice is to buy a remanufactured motor from www.hiperformer.com Hiperformer Engines is a premium quality remanufacturer in Spokane, Washington. They are considered one of the top remanufacturers in the US; which is why the highly respected chain of NAPA auto parts stores has chosen to exclusively sell Hiperformer engines. But Hiperformer also sells direct to the public, at amazingly low prices. And their remanufactured engines come with a 7 year, 100,000 mile warranty. They ship motors anywhere in the country (as well as overseas) for very low prices. Last time I checked; their price for a remanufactured Metro engine was about $1,350.

    If you buy one of these motors; it will probably come without the distributor, throttle body, valve cover, oil pan, or intake and exhaust manifolds. So those parts will have to be removed, cleaned, and transferrred from your old motor.

    If you get such a motor, write again, and I'll give you some tuning tips.
  • vikasintlvikasintl Member Posts: 26
    I understand, most likely it could be compression problem but they way it runs I doubt mechanics ability to check the compression....I actually went to two different mechanics and one said it is 210 in 2nd and 3rd and 1st has 150 ....than another mechanic said it is 120 in each .........mainly it runs very good only problem during idle. I also read somewhere compression differs gauge by gauge...all you should worry is difference in each cylinder...

    So, can you please suggest other options ...that I can try? I will definitely check compression again...but could please suggest more ideas....one mechanic told me about changing idle speed control motor.....can you suggest where do I find under the hood? some one suggested me changing egr valve and other suggested changing coolant temperature...but I trust you ...so I would start with your suggestion...the mechanic adjust the it to higher speed and still problem was not solved...so should I lower the idle speed using Allen?
  • jeaarthurjeaarthur Member Posts: 3
    Thanks for the help with my fuel problem. I will check out the filter and replace it. I checked the vent lines and all was clear. Hopefully the filter will fix it.
    Thanks again.
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