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You had two different mechanics test the compression: One mechanic found 210psi in two cylinders, and 150psi in the third. This result fails both of the above standards; the 150psi cylinder is below the minumum allowable limit, and it also differs from both of the other cylinders by more than 15%. So this mechanic's test proved that your engine compression is out of limits by BOTH of the standards.
The other mechanic tested the compression and found all the cylinders at 120psi. This pressure he measured in all three cylinders during that test fails the standard that no cylinder can have a pressure of less than 156psi.
You also ran a test yourself, and got 60psi in all cylinders. That also fails the test of the 156psi minimum allowable limit.
It sounds like you believe that, because three different compression tests each produced very different numbers; those results can somehow be dismissed as unreliable. But you OVERLOOK THE FACT THAT YOUR CAR FAILED THE STANDARDS IN ALL THREE OF THOSE TESTS. Compression test numbers will vary a lot for many different technical reasons (although this mostly happens when an engine is badly worn); so the consistent measure of a compression test is not how repeatable the numbers are, but rather how close to the allowable standards the numbers are. And your results are some of the worst I have ever seen.
So you had three different compression tests done, and every one of them failed. I also told you that idle instability is the most obvious symptom of an engine that has low compression; and that when an engine has compression that is below the factory limits, it is IMPOSSIBLE to adjust it to idle properly.
You responded by saying that your car "runs very good and gives 40 miles per gallon." YOU APPARENTLY DON'T KNOW THAT A METRO WITH GOOD COMPRESSION AND PROPER ADJUSTMENT GIVES 47 MILES PER GALLON IN THE CITY AND 55 TO 60 MILES PER GALLON ON THE HIGHWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please note that I said that an unstable idle is the most obvious symptom of low compression. What that implies is that there are less obvious effects on other aspects of performance (such as reduced fuel economy, reduced power at low engine speeds, and reduced hill climbing ability); which owners who are unamiliar with the performance of a Metro with a good engine may not even notice.
You said that you trust me; but then you continue by asking me to override my expert opinion that the engine cannot be made to idle properly BECAUSE IT GETS 40 MPG AND "RUNS VERY GOOD."
Your worn out engine will probably give 40mpg until the day it dies; but it can never be made to idle smoothly; and you have no idea of how much better the power and fuel economy would be if the engine was repaired.
I wouldn't dare suggest changing the idle adjustments because I have seen NO indication that there is any potential for improvement by doing so; and there is LOTS of potential for making it idle and run even worse. 40 years of experience in tuning motors with good compression and motors with bad compression have thoroughly convinced me that I know what I'm saying here. If you really trust me; then stop wasting my time by trying to convince me that you know more than I do.
All I get is a clicking at the fuse box under the hood when I turn the ignition.
Battery has a full charge. Once started the vehicle seems to run fine. Is there some other silinoid or switch I need to check?
If the starter runs when the jumper wire is connected; the problem could be in either the ignition switch start contact, or in the clutch inhibitor switch, or in the neutral safety switch.
If your car has a manual transmssion, there is a clutch pedal inhibitor switch on the bracket in back of the clutch pedal arm; which is designed to prevent the starter from being activated by the ignition key, unless the clutch pedal is held all the way down. This switch will sometimes not allow the starter to activate when there is a thick carpet on the floor under the pedal, which prevents the pedal from being pushed all the way down. The switch can also fail electrically. It can easily be bypassed by disconnecting the harness plug, and connecting the two harness wires together with a jumper wire. But the car will then start with the clutch pedal up or down; and if the car is in gear with the pedal up, it will immediately start moving when the starter is activated. So be careful until you either get used to it; or until after you replace the clutch switch.
If your car has an automatic transmission; there is a similar switch called a neutral safety switch; which prevents the starter from running unless the shift lever is either in Neutral or in Park. This switch sometimes stops working in the Park position; but will still work in the Neutral position; so try to start it in both positions.
The Neutral safety switch and the ignition switch may be either expensive or hard to find. You can bypass both of those switches, and the clutch switch by mounting a push button switch inside the car, and permanently connecting that push button between the battery positive terminal and the tab connector on the starter solenoid (tape up the harness connector that previously went to the tab terminal.) I recommend buying either a 10 amp or greater capacity Normally Open push button or a Single Pole spring loaded toggle switch at a good hardware or auto parts store; or at Radio Shack. (I once used a door bell push button to do this on a Toyota. It has lasted for years since then).
Jack
However, if you want to check the rotor indexing just as an exercise; turn the crankshaft until the notch in the lower crankshaft pulley lines up with the 6 degree BTDC mark on the degree scale on the timing belt cover. Then remove the distributor cap, and note the location of the center of the rotor tip. With the crankshaft at 6 degrees BTDC; the center of the rotor tip blade should line up directly with either the cap terminal for the #1 or the #3 cylinder's plug wire. (You'll need to mark the location of the center of the rotor blade on the outside edge of the distributor body, and then reinstall the cap; in order to accurately see where the rotor tip lines up with respect to the cap terminals). If the rotor tip's position is significantly off from the center of the plug wire tower; you can loosen the distributor hold down bolts, and rotate the distributor body until the rotor tip lines up properly. If the distributor position has not been previously altered from the factory setting; this should not be necessary. But in some cases, it may be beneficial. The distributor mounting bolts should end up near the center of the adjustment slots, if this is done correctly. It is very easy to make mistakes in judging the alignment of the rotor tip; so be extremely careful to use a straght edge to transfer the position down to the distributor body, and not depend on memory or to err by not looking straight down on the distributor when doing this.
If the rotor indexing is slightly off; it will probably have no noticeable effect on the way the motor runs; but if it is far off; it could create misfiring.
I hope this helps.
Thanks for your help.
Jack
PS - recent major tune-up using parts recommended on this forum, Techron fuel treatment, cap/rotor replacement, compression check all passed with flying colors
The Chevy Sprint was sold from 1985-1988, had a 3 cylinder, 1000cc Suzuki built motor, and was sold by Chevrolet dealers. The Geo Metro was sold from 1989-2000, had a 3 cylinder, 1000cc Suzuki built motor, and was sold by Chevrolet dealers. So the people who only used this information to decide, incorrectly assumed that the Sprint and the Metro had the same motor.
The truth is that the Chevy Sprint engine had hemispherical combustion chambers and a single overhead camshaft; which operated two rows of adjustable rocker arms through solid lifters. That motor had a recommended valve adjustment interval of 30,000 miles. But the Sprint had a bad cylinder head design, and developed a reputation for blowing head gaskets.
Suzuki either couldn't, or wouldn't, fix the head gasket problem; so GM got their engineers to redesign the head. The head design was changed from a hemi head with two rows of adjustable rocker arms and mechanical valve lifters; to a wedge head with a single row of non-adjustable rocker arms and automatically adjusting hydraulic valve lifters. The new head design was introduced on the 1989 Geo Metro, and has continued on the 3 cyl and 4 cyl Metro engines through the rest of their production run. The result is that; although the Chevy Sprint engine needed 30,000 mile valve adjustments; the Geo Metro engine never needs valve adjustments (and there is no way the valves on the Metro engine could be adjusted, anyway). But those people who just guessed that both vehicles used the same motor never came to realize these differences.
So your engine specialist is flat out wrong in his recommendation. Please show him this post, and tell him that if he is going to give people advice about Geo Metro engines; he needs to catch up with the changes that were made to these motors 22 years ago.
Since this guy is apparently poorly informed about these motors; I wouldn't be surprised if he is also misinformed about the correct compression figures. The Geo Metro has a much higher normal compression pressure than most other motors. The NORMAL compression pressure on a 3 cylinder Geo Metro motor is 195 psi. The LOWEST acceptable compression pressure on this motor is 165 psi. If the person who checked your compression was unaware of the unusually high compression standard in this motor; and got 150 psi in all cylinders; the usual outcome would be that he would say the motor had passed the compression check with "flying colors." 150 psi would be flying colors on many other motors; but 150 psi is an UNACCEPTABLY LOW TEST RESULT on a 3 cylinder Metro. I have seen this kind of mistake made again and again on Metro engines; because complacent mechanics think they no longer have to look up specifications in the book (since they "are all the same.")
You need to know the actual pressure readings for EACH INDIVIDUAL CYLINDER that were produced during the compression test of your motor. If ANY cylinder had less than 165 psi; the engine would idle roughly, and could not be adjusted to run properly. If the mechanic cannot clearly remember or find the actual pressure readings he measured; make him run the test again!!!
If the compression is low; either the cylinder head or the complete motor will need to be overhauled or replaced.
If the compression is within the specs I listed above; then I would replace the spark plug cables (assuming they have not been replaced) and check the PCV valve for clogging. If that doesn't smooth out the idle; I would have the throttle body air bypass screw adjusted by someone who has the car connected to an exhaust emission analyzer; and adjusts that screw to give the lowest hydrocarbon readings with the motor fully warmed up, and the idle speed at 800-900RPM.
Jack
I hope it doesn't turn out that you need a new motor (like all too many people who have posted in this forum; after buying a used Metro without first checking the compression). That motor will run endlessly; if given proper driving and maintenance; but all too many people lug them, or use the wrong spark plugs; or don't change the fuel filter, or don't watch the temperature gauge and inevitably overheat the motor. These are the people who are not fit to drive a Metro; and we all inherit the results of their incompetence and carelessness.
I've since had the dents pulled out, repainted her yellow, and totally cleaned up the interior including a new headliner. I'm hoping to get more out of this engine but if it needs a rebuilt, that's just one more step in the right direction as I intend to drive her forever and then some.
Also own a 98" Swift that I bought 3 years ago but it has an automatic and 1.3 engine. My son drives it now and loves it. I'll let you know how things turn out - I owe you a beer or a coke for saving me $120.
Unfortunately, I don't drink alcoholic beverages or consume soft drinks; but I appreciate the comradely spirit of your offer.
I come here because I have owned a 1990 Metro for the last 19 years and 250,000 miles, and I cannot resist the opportunity to share useful information about those magnificent vehicles. And my perception is that people on this particular forum are nicer, more open minded and generally more realistic than the people on the public forum. But there just ain't enough Metros out there to keep me busy.
I appreciate the thanks!! You folks make my days worthwhile!
Have enjoyed reading other blogs. Hope someone can give me an idea. Thanks.... margeo
There's not much else you can do on a tune up. If you really wanted to do it up; you could remove and scrape the carbon out of the EGR valve and its passages; and use Valvoline SynPower throttle body cleaner spray to clean the inside of the throttle body (particularly the upper and lower surface of the butterfly, and the surface of the bore where the butterfly edges touch. A toothbrush or bottle brush saturated with throttle body cleaner would be handy to reach the underside of the butterfly (while the throttle is held open by someone sitting in the car with their foot on the accelerator; or by moving and holding the throttle cable to keep the butterfly open; BUT BE SURE THAT THE THROTTLE CABLE IS PROPERLY SEATED IN ITS TRACK, BEFORE STARTING THE MOTOR. You may initially get some rough running for the first few minutes; until the cleaner burns off. Replace or thoroughly clean the PCV valve; and make sure the rubber PCV hoses are not clogged or leaking. Also check the vacuum hoses from the back of the motor to the MAP sensor on the firewall for damage or leaks.
The spark plug cables (only 2 cables on this motor) may eventually need replacement, if they develop more than 1,000 ohms resistance per inch of length, or if they become damaged; but that might not happen for some time longer. You could also replace the filter element in the vapor storage cannister, but that would outdo 98% of the owners out there. It would also be appreciated by the car if you flushed and replaced the brake fluid every 3 years; and changed the coolant at the interval listed on the brand of bottle you use. I use Prestone long life coolant (in the silver bottle), and mix it with equal quantities of distilled (not de-ionized) water before installing it in the motor.
And any motor will last longer and run better if you use only one brand and grade of motor oil for the life of the vehicle (people who care about their engine carry a spare quart of the brand and type of oil they use in the car; so they won't have to mix some other oil in the motor if it needs oil added between changes). And don't assume that the shop which changes your oil (if you have it done by a shop) knows what oil type and weight you use. Make sure they have the oil type you need in stock BEFORE they drain the oil; and don't be shy about telling them the brand and weight you want. If you have a choice of oil filters; I highly recommend the Fram "Tough Guard" oil filter; which has a "TG" prefix in the part number. It is reasonably priced, and keeps the oil noticeably cleaner. But don't use the other optional types of oil filters Fram makes: Some of them have chemical additives in them which I don't recommend.
Today I stopped at a parts store and had them get a reading on SE light. Code shown was 340 indicating the Camshaft Position Sensor may be faulty. Other possibilities were loose or mis-aligned timing belt. Because the car starts easily, and the 'miss' is so intermittant I tend to disguard the timing belt issue.
What do you think of the Camshaft Position Sensor idea, where is it, can I replace it with 'common' garage tools?
Thanks !!!!!
Please note in the text that the code may or may not be caused by the sensor itself. Since you (rightfully) dismiss the likelihood of it coming from the timing belt, because it is so irregular; it may either come from the sensor or from the wiring harness between the sensor and the computer. I would ordinarily dismiss the sensor itself as a possibility because of the irregularity; but ACDelco lists two different part numbers for this item; one of which is not listed by any of the aftermarket manufacturers. This implies that the original part number may have turned out to be unreliable; and was superseded by an improved design (the more expensive of the 2 ACDelco numbers). Since this is now an 11 year old model; you can be sure that the major aftermarket vendors have long since dropped the original faulty part; and that ACDelco is probably the only company that still lists it.
www.rockauto.com sells an "Original Engine Management" brand sensor for this car, under their part #96049, for $47.89 plus shipping. It is listed as equivalent to the more expensive ACDelco sensor, and is not equivalent to the cheaper ACDelco part. It costs about $27 less than the ACDelco part; and was probably made in the same plant. So, if local sources cannot match this price; I would buy it from Rock Auto. I buy many of my parts from them; because they have top quality at usually the best prices.
Here's a link to a photo of the sensor: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=319991 It has a 3 terminal electrical plug on it (which is probably secured with a difficult to decipher latch). The sensor body is fastened with just one bolt. You should be able to locate it on the car from this photo. There is also a crankshaft position sensor on this motor; which looks similar but has some differences: http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=943522 The foolproof difference is that the crank sensor has two terminals in the plug; while the cam sensor has three terminals.
Considering the likelihood that the original sensor is defective; and such defects are often intermittent in nature; while the diagnostic procedure for the wiring is complex and requires an expensive digital voltmeter; I would in this case start by replacing the sensor. However; the most common problem with wiring is that corrosion develops in the plug terminals; so it might save you some money and trouble if you first disconnected the sensor plug and sprayed electrical contact cleaner into the male and female terminals; and then reconnected it and ran the vehicle for a while to see if that stopped the problem.
My serpentine (alternator) belt broke on my 2000 Metro 1.0Liter hatchback. I've read on other forums about three bolts to loosen on the alternator to slide it forward to facilitate new belt placement. The top bolt is obvious though hard to get to (socket set, here we go!), but the bottom two are hard to decide upon, there are about 6 or so bolts on various sides of the bottom of the alternator. can anyone tell me, or better yet post a picture, of the ones I need to loosen to put on my new belt?
(http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=37261)
The 2 bolts (it looks like 3; but the Metro uses a single, long bottom bolt, which threads into a nut on the back side of the alternator) that need to be removed are the ones which pass through the 3 triangular flanges that extend above and below the alternator body. The bolt which passes through the top flange presses it against a slotted slider bracket; and can be loosened to allow the alternator to be pivoted on the bottom bolt (when it is loosened), in order to adjust the belt tension. As you can see; both of these bolts are on the same plane; which is at a 90 degree angle to the plane of the drive belt.
I usually find it easier to use a long handled 12mm box end wrench to loosen the top bolt; as there is scant room in that location for a ratchet driver. But I use a ratchet and a socket on a short extension to do the lower bolt. I don't recall whether or not it is necessary to hold the nut on the back of the alternator to prevent it from turning while the long bottom bolt is loosened. I believe that nut is permanently fastened in place; but it's been a long time...
It will also be necessary to disconnect the power cable from where it attaches at the the back of the alternator. Be sure to disconnect the battery ground cable before working on the alternator.
I usually use a long bar or a heavy screwdriver to lever the alternator when adjusting the belt tension, in order to adequately tighten the belt upon reinstallation. The belt tension needs to be significantly tighter than it would appear. I've seen inexperienced people cringe at how tight the belt has to be, in order to prevent it from slipping. Because of the tension; experience has shown that cheap belts will stretch and not prevent the pulley from slipping when an electrical load is applied. By far; the best belt for this application is a Goodyear Gatorback Poly-V # 4040320.
The fan belt (it is called a ribbed belt; not a serpentine belt, as serpentine belts are wider and much longer, since they have an idler wheel/tensioner which presses down on the belt in between pulleys to adjust and maintain tension, and serpentine belts typically go through several sharp arcs) may have broken from age; but it also could have been that the belt broke because the alternator or the water pump locked up. So be sure to turn the water pump and the alternator pulleys and check for looseness, play, friction and wobble before installing the new belt.
I love them. we currently have 1990 4 dr automatic and 91 convertible standard.
the metro was not built for speed, how ever I just recently put a HHO unit from www.highperformancefuelcells.com on my 90 4 dr that joker was accelerating up the hills. The mileage for an automatic when the car is runing wright is 45mpg the standard will get you 55 mpg.
If your struts, alignment or tires are out of sink your mileage can easily drop to 35 mpg. these cars are cheap to buy and you can do a complete over hall for what you paid for the car. They will run for ever if you maintain it.
I had a 91 two door hatch that had over 400k miles and there was no reverse for over 100k. I gave it to a friend who was desperate for transportation to get to work. He drove it another 250k and sold it. He never had the reverse fixed. The car is still running. It take allot to kill a geo.
The 2dr hatch is a great car but hard to get in and out of the back. The convertible is awesome! Boy is it a head turner. Lots of fun the trunk has good space. plus you can store stuff under the trunk from the inside of the car. There is a space that is 8" tall that fits tool and stuff you don't use much. The 4dr hatch is a great car if you need to transport people and stuff. Lots of room . The 4 door are hard to find. if you get one that is under $1500 jump on it even if you have to put work into it.
Just know that if you are in an accident the small car looses. Always give the crazy's on the road freedom to get out of your space.
I have always gotten the full amount of money back that was put into my geo's. With the gas savings and keeping good records on the work you have done, you can't loose.
The money we save on gas, we are able to buy annual passes for our whole family to all 4 Disney parks. $2500 for the past 5 years
Hope you enjoy the wonderful world of geo's
stay blessed,
I'm with you all the way.
I bought a 94 2 door. Installed an XFi cam in it, thenthe final drive from a 4 cyl. I get 62 miles to the imperial gallon.
It's a 94, bought it with 40 thou. km on the odo. Now has 108 thou.
I have a vert, original paint, and went the other direction by installing a Firefly turbo everything in it. Full sway bars and chassis reinforcement !
They are not built for speed but for enjoyment.
If you have rewired the sensor harness plug; it may be that you exchanged the positions of the gauge and ECU leads. This could conceivably put 12 volts battery voltage into the ECU; when it is only intended to receive a 5 volt signal in the coolant temperature sensor lead. That would throw the calibration of the ECU temperature signal way off. But when you hook up the dummy load; that connection would not also have the dash gauge wiring connected to it (or so I would imagine). If you are with me on this one; I'd like to see what happens if you connect the ECU section of the sensor to the wiring harness, in the correct polarity; but leave off the wire for the dash gauge.
There are some people on this site who don't like to be told what to do (I sometimes wonder why they even bother to write in and ask for advice) and there are many others who pick and choose what suggestions they will try and what they will ignore. I don't know what your feelings or attitudes are about following suggestions, nor whether you have all the tools or knowledge necessary to do all the stuff I suggest. So, after writing a bunch of suggestions and getting no feedback from you about those particular things; I am now in the dark, and feel totally out of touch with what you have done or haven't done to test the car.
If you haven't been giving me feedback because you almost always try everything I write, and you of course would say so if you found bad plug wires or low compression or anything else that was not right; if that is what is going on here; please at least tell me that. That way, I'll know that you'll let me know whenever something I suggest uncovers a problem.
It is probably hard for some people to accept that I know more than they do about the problems they write in about. But this is very true. And what this means is that when I suggest they test something; I do so because I know it could have an important effect on the problem. So, if someone decides not to test something that I asked them to test; because they don't see how that could affect this problem; they are acting out of ignorance and this puts me in a bind.
The way I find the cause of a problem is to test all the possibilities, and eliminate them one by one. But today I don't know any more about your car than I did when you first started writing; because you told me almost nothing about the things I asked you to test.
CAN YOU PLEASE HELP ME BY GIVING ME A BETTER SENSE OF HOW CLOSELY YOU'VE BEEN CARRYING OUT MY SUGGESTIONS??? THAT'S THE ONLY WAY I CAN CONTINUE TO BE OF HELP HERE. THANK YOU!
In addition; the battery ground cable clamp should have a second, smaller wire going to a bolt in the inner fender. If that wire is in place; remove the fender bolt and clean the body panel and wires as described above. If there is only the main battery cable coming from the negative post; make up a length of 12 gauge stranded wire with ring terminals on the ends; and connect it to the negative cable clamp bolt and to a nearby bolt in the fender (after scraping any paint off the fender at that point).
Furthermore; locate the ground point on the back of the intake manifold, a little to the passenger side of the throttle body, which has several wires attached there. Remove and clean all the connectors and metal surface, and securely tighten the ground bolt.
Let me know whether or not you find any problems in those areas. Thanks!
Then, measure the voltage across the battery terminals with the engine off. Write the figure down. Start the motor and measure the voltage with the engine idling. Write that down. Then, with the engine idling; measure the voltage between the battery wire at the ignition coil and ground. Write that figure down. Please post all three readings here. Thanks.
I bought a 1996 Geo Metro a couple of weeks ago. The body is rough but it runs great, I bought this for the gas mileage plus it looks like a fun car to drive. The headlights did not work but after scouring this forum, I found a bad connection at the fuse box and corrected it. My new problem after driving it to work a few days is the oil consumption. It uses a quart about every 75 miles. It has no visible leaks so it must be burning it. I checked compression and #1 has about 60 psi while #2 & 3 have about 120 psi. A squirt of oil in cylinder makes no difference. Cylinder 1 has a cloud shoots out when the engine is cranked with plugs out. I have concluded a bad valve in #1 cylinder but can't imagine why that would cause my oil problem.
Any advice or hints would be greatly appreciated. I am fairly handy around cars and have done almost every repair to my vehicles but haven't done a valve job in more years than I can remember. I have gotten prices for valves and gaskets from local auto parts store but have to wonder if I am being soaked a little on price. The parts are adding up almost to what I paid for the car.
Thanks for your time and expertise.
The reason that oil does not improve the compression on #1 cylinder is the same reason it is consuming so much oil: There is either a big gouge in the cylinder wall (which is too deep to be sealed when you squirt oil into it) or the oil rings and compression rings are stuck; or else there is a warped head and oil is leaking from an oil passage into that cylinder. You have a major repair job here; and it most likely will have to include the bottom end as well as the head.
Check www.rockauto.com for the best parts prices. www.hiperformer.com has the best prices and quality on premium remanufactured engines (with a 7 year, 100,000 mile warranty). They get about $1,600 for the complete Metro motor.