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Volkswagon GTI 1.8t vs VR6

24

Comments

  • mznmzn Member Posts: 727
    Friends, since a special topic has been created to discuss the SPORT SUSPENSION ON GOLF GTI, let's continue our suspension conversation there. Thanks!

    carlady/host
  • jtaimjtaim Member Posts: 34
    I haven't driven the golf/gti 1.8t, but own a passat 1.8t since last summer. The 1.8t is a powerful enough engine, especially when matched with a manual tranny like in my passat. The 1.8t is also very smooth for a 4 cylinder.

    BUT, you have to be aware of its characteristics. While turbo lag is minimal, it is there, making it less responsive than a normally aspirated engine, like the vr6. In first gear, I have to spool up the engine more than normal or the car kinda sits there for a second waiting for the revs and torque to build up. The golf/gti weighs a little less, so this is less of a "problem", but be sure to drive both to see the difference in throttle response.

    I drove a jetta glx (vr6) w/manual. The vr6 has great throttle response, and is VERY, VERY smooth. Being basically an inline-6 gives it that smooth quality.

    So if you care about the power, torque, and price, and don't mind if the power delivery is a little unlinear, the 1.8t is pretty nice. 0-60 is only slightly slower, and with a chip, it's better than a vr6.

    But if you want a really, really smooth, lovely engine, that gives you more power than you'll ever need, get the vr6.
  • zman57zman57 Member Posts: 1
    ok, slight digression. I just bought a 1.8T GTI. Awesome highway cruiser, but around town rolls like a boat into my favorite curves. Accelerator and steering feedback is vague. The fit and finish of the new model is excellent, but I miss my old GTI! Any thoughts on A4 1.8 vs. A3 VR6? I feel so suburban in this thing. Should I ditch it for a 2 year old VR6 with 16K on it?
  • tutoo7tutoo7 Member Posts: 10
    When I had bouht my 1.8T I thought it was also a little weak on turns but that changed when I put some new tires. Im telling you it made a big difference.
  • alfaromeoalfaromeo Member Posts: 210
    the A3 does not come with the VR6. You can buy an S3, but that car is not sold in the US and is equipped with a 'chipped' 1.8t. It does handle like lightning though..

    If you are considering a non US MODEL, why don't you get the GTI 4 motion? A friend of mine has it, and how... do you say Nirvana in German???
  • cinemafiacinemafia Member Posts: 57
    I think Zman meant an A3 Chassis VR6, as in a GTi VR6 between the years of 1994 and 1998, not an Audi A3 or an S3, which are only available in Europe.

    Easy to see why you were confused though alfa....
  • alfaromeoalfaromeo Member Posts: 210
    I just came back from trying the Vr6 and the 1.8t. They WERE Jettas, because I wanted to try the same car with the different engines, and they didn't have any 1.8t GTI for testing.

    FRANKLY, it seems to me that the VR6 blows the 1.8t away. Now I know this may be just an impression, simply because the two engines behave in such different manners.

    The 1.8t was surprisingly smooth, - nearly too smooth in my opinion. Silent (ok, maybe they've insulated it a bit more on the Jetta), very nice at 'my' cruising speed (80mph)... There was a tiny 'lag' which may be attributed to the Turbo, but nothing that really bothered me.
    But darn... that Vr6 engine really flies. It also appeals a lot more to me in the sense that it has to be revved up in order to start talking. The 1.8t gave power and torque over a 'plateau' whereas the Vr6 delivered p and t in a more conventional 'uphill' buildup, accompanied by a nice 'gnarl' when close to redline. That's the way an engine should deliver the goods, in my opinion. But then, I don't belong to those who love to shift 'early'. The 1.8t has quite some torque very early, ideal for 'early shifters'.

    Again, these were Jettas, which are slightly heavier than the GTIs, and way too soft in my opinion. I would nearly say that my Jetta GLS 2.0 gives me more 'fun' because the engine is not 'overpowering' the rest of the car's potential. With the Vr6, the Jetta would definitely need a much tighter suspension, and a MUCH firmer steering.
    But again, those are my opinions on the Jettas, and I realize that the Golf is a different car.
    I just wanted to share my thoughts about the engines. Oh, when are those Alfas arriving? I can't wait. Their 2.0 Twin Spark (155bph) and V6 2.5 (195 bhp) are models of what engines should be... IN MY OPINION!
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    Just curious, but are you ever going to quit raving about the 2.0 Twin Spark in topics that it as absolutely no relation to? The VR6 won't 'blow away' a 1.8T in the GTI, the 0-60 is going to be very close I think.
  • alfaromeoalfaromeo Member Posts: 210
    I didn't say the VR6 would 'blow away' the 1.8t. I used the word 'feel'...
    As to my constant referral to other cars and engines, I guess it builds on my frustration about seeing too few cars discussed - for lack of choice. I shall abstain from such public 'day dreaming' in the future.
    However, my reaction is well-founded. While there is absolutely no doubt that the 1.8t is a brilliant engine, it delivers the goods in such a comfy and quiet way, - nearly too civilized. Maybe the GTI 1.8T is the perfect hatch for highway cruising in the US. But I can clearly see why Peugeot and a few others are gaining ground fast in Europe. They have stuck to what a GTI should be (and that is not a highway cruiser).
    I have driven lots of four cylinder engines, (yes, also several Alfas) and THEREFORE have a certain basis for comparison. There are too few capable 4-cylinder engines in the US market, and that limits the scope of discussions of course.
    I hear people discussing the VW-Audi engines and making comparisons to Honda engines. Isn't that the same?
    My lingering for the 2.0lTS is also perfectly subjective. While it is slightly more powerful than the 1.8GTI, it does not have the same torque output, and lags a few ''' behind on the 0-60. But timing acceleration is not everything. The VR6 and 1.8T may have similar performances. It just does not feel that way when I drove them. And to me, the 'feeling' factor is important too.
    And yes, that's why I love Alfas. Sorry. Last time. Promise!

    ps: I wonder why the 1.8t is not sold on GTI's in Europe anymore (replaced by an Audi 5 cylinder). Does anyone know????
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    I didn't mean to jump all over you, I think it's just because you and I frequent about all the same topics, so Its been seeming like I've been hearing about this twin spark all the time. I don't have any problem with discussing any topic, I just dont want to discuss the same topic in 4 different boards.
    I think there are quite a few capable 4 cylinders in the US right now. Most of them aren't engines that I would buy, because I like a little more meat under the hood. As was demonstrated in the other topic (Where I admit to being wrong about HP and torque, although I will say one thing, physics doesn't always apply itself to the real world perfectly, especially when you're dealing with something as quirky as the IC engine) a lot of horsepower doesn't necessarily mean you have a lot of torque, it could mean you've just got a high redline, which is also good, because it either means A)You can stay in the same gear longer or B)You can gear it lower and get better acceleration. Personally, I'd rather have the torque than the HP, which is why I like V8's or forced induction 4's and 6's over NA VTEC shenannigans. A lot of these VTEC engines I don't see as improvements at all. I'll keep going back to the engine in my MR2 because it's a perfect example. 13 year old engine here. Imagine would it could be putting out now. At the time it had 145 HP @ 6400 and 140 lb/ft @ 4000. Redlines around 7100. Compare that to the Honda Civic Si. Its got the Civic beat by 30 lb/ft in the torque department. It's also got the Civic beat in the acceleration department, even at a curb weight of 2600 lbs, pretty porky for a 2 seater sports car.
  • alfaromeoalfaromeo Member Posts: 210
    ok... peace bro!... lol

    btw... how do turbos do in terms of mileage?
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    I've owned 2 turbos and 1 SC'd engine and from what I experienced as long as you keep off the gas the forced induction doesn't really effect mileage at all. Both turbos and superchargers dont start blowing until a certain rpm and/or certain throttle depression, so if you don't use them, you don't use more gas. I really wish I'd kept the SC MR2 I had when I was 19. It'd make a great daily driver still. Highest MPG i got out of it was around 34 cruising at 80 mph. 34 mpg and 0-60 in 6.5, top speed of over 130. Mmmm mmmm good. Maybe I'll see if I can pick one up somewhere.
  • alfaromeoalfaromeo Member Posts: 210
    From my test driving experience (several Audis, and a Jetta) and based on impressions from friends who own the 1.8t, the engine requires to be 'broken in' a lot more than other engines do.
    In short, I have not been very impressed by the engine when I test drove it NEW. But many have mentionned (including the Audi dealer where I tried the Audi A4) said that the engine has significantly more 'punch' after having put some miles on it.
    To me, this sounds a bit mysterious. Can anyone confirm this?
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    Personally I think the A4 is too big to be using the 1.8T anyway.
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    the 18.T A4 when coupled with a quattro is rather slow. It comes in at porky 3500lb. But it can be chip tho. In regards to the suspension of both Jetta and Golfs, I believe they are both on the lumpy side. Even though it reads GTi. It's not.
    Wanna try something hairy? Just take your VR6 gti and go really fast. Find an empty road. And look for a quick left or right hander and heel toe it to downshift as you make a fast flick to the right or left turn. You'll see how tipsy that GTi of yours get.....If youc an make that turn at a relatively fast speed, you'll prolly end up charging to the opposite curb or grass due to extreme FWD understeer. Recently a GTi with sticky tires but "GTi sports tuned" suspension toppled on my local autoX event. hehehe.... NE how, there's nothing a good change of aftermarket suspension can't fix! Love those new VR6 split spoke wheels!
  • kurtb1kurtb1 Member Posts: 6
    I just purchased a Golf GLS 1.8t this week. I couldn't do the vr6 since there's no Golf model available with the six and no sunroof (I'm taller, and besides, I don't want to get caught leaving it open on a rainy night. It's just one more thing to breakdown anyhow.)

    Here's a question for the 1.8t users. The dealer told me to use regular when I gas up even though the manual says premium. Premium fuel has caused some long-term problems with the 1.8t Passats. Have you guys heard anything about that?
  • sandinosandino Member Posts: 1
    just to respond to kurtb1, my dealer told me to use premium fuel, i haven't heard of any problems with the engines... i don't think you'll ever cause damage that way on this prestine engine.

    WHAT IS FASTER?
    i recently purchased a 1.8 futura yellow gti, and all my friends with their big mouths and VR6s want to have a go... i have test out my stock speed with a random gti vr6 98 and he had me by a 1/2 car length going into 3rd gear.
    -does anyone know for sure that my luck will change if i chip/air filtre/and cat-back exsaust.
    -my friend has a 93 corrado vr6 and wants me to step up.
    -anyone know the 0-60 numbers for a 205bhp 1.8 are?
    will i be up for the challenge?
  • jangwoojangwoo Member Posts: 2
    Dear GTI'ers:
    One of my remote key for VW GTI-VR6 98 does not
    work. I changed batteries but no luck. I guess the
    remote needs to be programmed again(I guess so
    since I had similar experience with my Maxima 96,
    and after re-programming, it worked just fine.) Any
    one can help?
    pls e-mail to shinjw@erols.com
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    If you get the chip/echaust/intake you shouldn't have a problem taking out stock or lightly modded VR6's. With around 200 HP I would guess the 0-60 for a 1.8T would be in the mid 6's.
  • crb1701crb1701 Member Posts: 3
    VW users,

    I recently had a discussion with a buddy about cars and mentioned the VW manual says replace oil every 5000 miles. He's a Ford owner (but still a friend) and argued that the oil should still be changed every 3000 miles - the VW engines might be in some way technically superior to Ford powerplants, however, oil is still oil and can still crude the system if not replaced every 3000 miles. What do you guys think? I have a 1.8t.
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    With the 1.8T I would definitely change the oil every 3000. The seals and tight tolerances in turbo's are very picky when it comes to clean oil. I think better safe than sorry applies here, depending on how much you drive it's not going to cost you a whole heck of a lot to change your oil 1-3 more times per year.
  • crb1701crb1701 Member Posts: 3
    Thanks, Judas.

    I have another question. I bought the Golf GLS 1.8t and want some aftermarket alloy wheels. The car comes with 195/65R15 tires, and I'm finding wheels measuring 15x6.5 and 15x7. Which size is correct for the Golf GLS and the tire size indicated?
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    The stock wheel with the GLS is 15"x6". 6.5 would be fine. 7" would probably be fine too. Personally, if I was going to be replacing wheels I wouldn't replace them with stock size. As long as you're gonna spend the dough step up to a 16 or 17 inch wheel and maybe a little wider tire, 205 or 215. Down side is that of course its going to be more expensive, ride would probably suffer slightly, but handling would increase. Looks better too of course. Something to think about.
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    I wouldn't go with 17" if I were u. Unless u can shell out alot of money, an avg 17" would be heavy thus causing you to lose accelaration. Try to find a good balance. definitely chip and then modify your intake and catback exhaust!
  • sentra20sersentra20ser Member Posts: 68
    I'm looking at getting a GOLF GLS 1.8T. I would have to get a 5-speed w/ luxury package and really love the idea of having a 4-door hatchback. In your opinion do you think I will miss my old '94 Acura Integra GSR sedan if I got the GOLF?
  • johnny282johnny282 Member Posts: 34
    Take a 1.8t for a drive, and you'l find that it's a totally different animal than the Acura engines. The VW turbo makes all its power and torque low in the rpm range, and revving it past 6500 rpm is futile. I personally love having the torque on tap, knowing I don't have to hit 7000 rpms to get the engine on cam. The only thing is, stock golfs have a much softer suspension than an acura. There is a suspension kit available from VW for the Golf, look on the VW website under accessories. However, the best bet would be going to a local speed shop who knows VWs and having them install a complete system from a known tuner such as Neuspeed. I'm waiting for the 2001 GTI because it will come with a stiffer stock suspension, more stiff than the 2000 models.
    J
  • johnny282johnny282 Member Posts: 34
    I have to agree with Ramon about the wheels. I see so many kids these days in their 127hp Civics running 17 or 18 inch wheels. They don't realize the weight they are adding to the car and the suspension components. I agree, wheels should be chosen based on available power and suspension configuration, otherwise your car becomes all show and no go.
    J
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    A decent quality 17 inch wheel isn't going to weigh too much more than the stock 15's. If you get a real high end one the wheel/tire combo will actually weigh less. Regardless, the GTI/GLS isn't a drag racer, and any losses in straightline performance will be more than offset with improved handling and feel, not to mention the better looks.
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    A 106lb-ft civic with 17 or 18" wheels weighing about 25-40lbs each is hadly what I call improved handling! Unless u're willing to shell out alot of money for quality wheels which comes in at about 18-21lbs then it might be something. However the general look and no go crowds I doubt they want to spend that kidna money otherwise they would not cut their springs or put stickers on their cars. It's easier to put body tack ons to make teh car look fast than actually to make a car go fast. For good street handling, 16" is what you want coupled with sticky tires. You're not driving on smooth racing circuit tarmacs instead you have to contend with potholed filled streets. Think about it. I just love runing up to slammed civics with oversize chrome wheels and scare 'em off with my little Impreza. They know that they are for looks only with their oversized rims.
    For autoX 15" or 16" is a good size for navigating tight circuits. Not sure about Golf's stock alloy wheel weight. But my stock alloys comes in at 15.1lbs for 15" and 16.2lbs for 16". So that is pretty gewd.
  • johnny282johnny282 Member Posts: 34
    ...in Sport Compact Car the Rays engineering wheels. Alot of cars featured in the Mag seem to be running them. I believe the 16" runs something rediculous like 9.5 lbs! I'm sure they're very expensive though, and I'd hate to see what a Tucson pothole would do to it :-) Anyway, I can't wait to get my new car. Everytime I drive my sister's 1.8t Jetta it makes my Neon feel like a go-cart. All I'm waiting on is the 2001 prices to come out so I can order one. Then, it's up Mt Lemmon at warp speed!
    J
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    Neons are very nimble. partically the ACR version. New Neons are blah compared to the older ones. VOlk Rays are awesome! I love their te37 lines. I doubt their 16" would be that light. However I know for a fact they are light tho. Prolly 11-12lbs for a 16".
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    Ramon, were we even talking about the civic? I didn't think so. 16's are perfect but 17's are way too big? The difference isn't going to be that great. Get whatever you want. The difference between 16's and 17's is going to be at the most, what, .1 second 0-60? Big deal.
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    Weren't we? Hmm... mus tbe confused with the many forums I dropped by. Who cares about 0-60. Only simple ppl still rely upon 0-60 as a gauge for performance. I'm talking about every single time you turn a corner and accelerate out of it. I am refering to every single time you move from a traffic light. I'm refering to the overall handling package on tight turns. Well if you drive like ur car is a Caprice then by all means the 17" or even 18" will not make any difference. It's when you push the car a hard 17" and a 16" or even 15" will show vast differences. Your litte sub compacts are not BTCC race cars! They run on smooth tracks with massive carbon discs. You dinky lil subcompacts have measly 10" discs....a 17 or 18" will make your discs look stupid. ;-)
    Sorry for the rant. Just my 0.02 cents and cus I care. Is it wrong to care?! =(
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    Considering this is a VW forum I don't see where the Civic stuff is coming in, here's the original question.
    I have another question. I bought the Golf GLS 1.8t and want some aftermarket alloy wheels. The car comes with 195/65R15 tires, and I'm finding wheels measuring 15x6.5 and 15x7. Which size is correct for the Golf GLS and the tire size indicated?
    If 0-60 isn't impacted significantly that 'accelerating out of a corner' wont be impacted significantly either, will it? Pretty simple.
    Ramon, a wheel and tire size 1 inch larger than what is available from the factory is not going to make that much of a difference in acceleration, and it wont make ANY difference if you dont have a problem spending a little more on the wheels. As for handling, I'd prefer a lower profile tire with less sidewall flex, wouldn't you? As for the discs looking stupid, I wont even dignify that with a response.
  • sentra20sersentra20ser Member Posts: 68
    I would go with 17inch wheels. I saw a Bug with 17's last night and it looked great. I think they were 17x7 with 205/50R17. It had Konig Moonsoon's and looked so nice. I don't know why VW has 65 series tires on the car. I think all GTI's should come with 16's. Later.
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    I think 17's are a good compromise. They offer good handling/response/feedback without sacrificing much (If any) acceleration. And they look decent. ABD's (AutoBahn Designs) latest Golf project car has 19's, and they look really good, but they're too impractical for the street. Not to mention expensive, especially tires.
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    Apparently Judas you haven't gone to any real performance driving school or take up autoX events. Seems like you're more into looks and fit well into the mould of ppl who does not push their car to it's limits. So 17 or even 19" would suit your taste better.
    "As for the discs
    looking stupid, I wont even dignify that with a
    response."
    Cus you know it's true. ;-)
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    It's kind of funny ramon, youre saying I'm into looks and then youre saying dont buy big wheels because they make your discs look stupid. Who's talking about looks? Give me a break. Who cares. You see me advocating 19" wheels?
    On the street or on a poorly surfaced track (Most autocross tracks) there's really no point in going any larger than a 16 or 17. On well maintained tracks there is definitely an advantage. Why does everyone in the Touring Car class run 18's, 19s and 20s? Yeah, you're right. Must just be for looks. And they probably dont push their cars to the limits either, just like I dont. The fact that you're advocating 16 inchers and saying 17 inchers are way too big and are going to negatively impact performance (You said straight line as well as handling, didn't you?) leads me to believe that you havent gone to any preformance driving schools or autoX events. Or if you did you talked to someone that had no clue what they're talking about.
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    I always chuckle when ppl who wants big wheels try to defend it by bringing cars from BTCC or any GT racing. Err....have you checked out their hp? the smooth tarmac compared to your average street? the price of their 20" which prolly cost more than your car? the massive brakes that complements it? The long sweeping turns compared to tighter turns on roads? How many S sweeps do u see on your average city?
    I'm saying 16" would be a optimal size for a subcompact cat with 150hp like the 1.8T golf. I actually have gone to a few of these events and many racers who are serious dropped off their 17" for the choice of 15" or 16" with lower sidewall and harder sidewall tires. Hmm... I wonder?
    What's next chrome?
    I respect your views of why getting a 17" would be good. Mind you the cost as well. Getting a 17" is more expensive and then you would have to get bigger 17" tires. Those extra cost over a 16" wheel/tire can be put on good use like suspension and for your case....a big wing?! hehehe...just kidding on that one.
    I would not say a thing if th 17" are being put on say a Skyline GTR or a WRX or a 911 etc... but on a mediocre subcompact?
  • sentra20sersentra20ser Member Posts: 68
    They look sweet and will handle great with street tires. If you are looking for autoxing wheels buy a set of extra steel 15's and mount 205/50 R15 Kuhmo's on them.
  • judasjudas Member Posts: 217
    Don't you drive a Honda ramon? One of the cars most often seen with all the mods for looks and the least for performance? One of the biggest all show no go cars in the US?
    You were advocating 16" for a 106 HP Civic. Isn't the extra HP and TQ (Especially TQ in this case) of the GTI enough to offset the fact that the wheels are an inch bigger?
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    Honda? what? I don't drive a Honda. I drive a Subaru Impreza. Think I'm gonna let this issue slide. Actually what do you drive Judas?
  • sentra20sersentra20ser Member Posts: 68
    The GTI comes standard with the 1.8T turbo engine and new sports suspension in GLS trim, or you can get the GLX version which serves up a smooth 2.8-liter narrow-angle V6 with a wide torque band. Horsepower is rated 174 at 5,800 rpm, while torque is 181 foot-pounds at 3,200 revs. This year the GLX gets a new 16-inch wheel design and standard multi-function steering wheel controls for the radio and cruise control system (steering wheel controls are optional on GTI models in GLS trim). New 17-inch alloy wheels are optional on all GTI models.
  • quint3quint3 Member Posts: 20
    As you may recall, the 1.8t's original application was in the Audi A4. Car and Driver said that the 1.8 felt stronger than the (Audi) 2.8 but the numbers told a different story. The 1.8 seems to be a "feel good" motor which ain't necessarilly a bad thing. The VW 1.8 is no faster than a Civic Si, but it feels much better. As for the VR6, it has a very nice feel and would be a good choice if the thought of chipping a 1.8 worries you. But if you are planning any suspension work, I would go for the 1.8t.
  • johnny282johnny282 Member Posts: 34
    I hadn't looked at the VW listing at Edmunds lately, the fact that Edmunds has info on the 2001 GTI means I'm one step closer to my car! I hope these new steering wheel switches don't change the look of the three spoke leather wheel, which is what I want. I'm happy to hear that 17" wheels will be offered as well as a rear sway bar, maybe I'll be happy with the car and not have to spend $2000 on a Neuspeed suspension. Has anyone seen or heard of anyone putting the Neuspeed intake and exhaust on the 1.8T? I'm wondering how loud it makes the car, and if you get any real power gains. I'm considering this instead of a chip, because I don't think it will void the warranty. Guess I'll call VW again and see if prices and brochures are officially out. Perhaps Edmunds has a cover operative planted deep within VW :-)
    J
  • sentra20sersentra20ser Member Posts: 68
    I'm looking for info on 1.8T.
  • alfaromeoalfaromeo Member Posts: 210
    My 2001 GTI 1.8T has just arrived in Wilmington port... will be here in a few days... YABADABADOOOOO!
  • cinemafiacinemafia Member Posts: 57
    The 2001 model steering wheel with the convenience switches will not be a 3-spoke, as a matter of fact (and according to vwvortex.com) the beloved 3-spoke steering wheel will nto be available after the 2000 model year, the 2001 will be four-spoke!!

    But oh well, at least the Passat W8 is soon to become a reality! Too bad it's gonna be $40k = (
  • spedfreekspedfreek Member Posts: 1
    Does anyone know how 1.8t is affected by altitude? I know saab's turbo four can keep its power all the way to 10k feet and wondered if audi's 1.8t could. Thanks in advance!!
  • cinemafiacinemafia Member Posts: 57
    The 1.8T should hold it's power fairly well at high altitudes. Now I've personally have no expereince in this, but generally all turbos do well at high altitudes because they force what little air is available into the combustion chamber.
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