Subaru Impreza Outback Sport & TS

paisan · January 2004

80/20 is the torque split "initially" but under acceleration, braking, turning, slipping, etc it can go to 50/50 if need be.

90/10 was the 1st gen of 4EAT prior to '96MY.

-mike

pselover · January 2004

In September 2003 I Purchased a 1999 Impreza Sport. Overall I am very satisfied with the vehicle. One annoyance I have is that for some unknown reason, I cant begin fueling and fill up the tank without the pump clicking off constantly. First I tried positioning the fuelling nozzle in various places. I virtually have to try to keep the flow at a trickle in order to fill the tank. My Subaru Service team spent one day checking out the problem without success. They tested the sensors, checked the filler tube for obstructions and Blew out the vent lines with an air hose. They are stumped. I still spend hours at the pump. Any Suggestions?

micweb · January 2004

I looked in the wheel well and the cause on my Scion is obvious...the gas tank line is extremely narrow (less than a garden hose!), not like the earlier generation filler tubes which are quite fat in comparison. I can't refill the Scion without angling the gas pump nozzle in at just the right angle.

Look under the car and see if the Subaru also has a very narrow filler tube....

bluesubie · January 2004

I've only seen a couple of other folks with this problem. My wife used to have it on her 99 OB, but it went away.

In NJ, you can't pump your own gas and everyone was telling me that it was the attendant. It happened no matter where I went. The dealer had never heard of it, but there were two people in New England on another forum that had the same problem.

Maybe open the cap, and let the tank breathe a little before inserting the nozzle. That's my highly technical advice. :-) It hasn't happened in a couple of years on her car.

-Dennis

crashton6 · January 2004

I've had the same problem with my 2000 Forester twice now. My fix was to go under the back of the car & check all the hoses that go to & from the charcoal canister. You will find the canister under the right rear fender. I found them to be quite loose fitting. They are just pushed on without clamps of any kind. My fix was to clean up the connections & to use tie wraps to clamp the hoses down. That fix worked for a year then the car started to exhibit the same slow fueling behavior. My second fix wast to cut all the tie wraps off & clean the hose to canister connections again. This time I got some small stainless steal hose clamps. This has done the trick for the last two years. I believe the tie wraps just loosed over time. If the hose clamps loosen it's just a twist of a screw driver to retighten. I hope this helps you.

Chuck

ateixeira · January 2004

Yep, when I put my trailer hitch on, I had to remove that canister. If a hose stays loose, you'll even get a Check-Engine Light!

Don't ask me how I know, but I love the tie-strap idea.

-juice

crashton6 · January 2004

Yes I had to remove that canister & it's nest of hoses to put my trailer hitch on too. The mini hose clamps work better that the tie wraps, but do cost a couple of $ more.

Chuck

cbmorton · January 2004

An interesting product announcement from Subaru: a 2.5TS sedan will be added to the Canadian lineup only, starting in February, at the same price as the 2.5TS wagon. However, the TS sedan will also add standard 16" alloy wheels and a 'wide-track' sport suspension. No word as to what, if anything, will happen to the 2.5RS.

The 2.5TS sedan is being shown for the first time at the Montréal International Auto Show, at the Palais des congrès in Montréal (9-18 January).

ateixeira · January 2004

Seems like that *is* the RS sedan. Maybe they'll drop the RS?

-juice

cbmorton · January 2004

Another product planning meeting I'd like to have attended. The TS sedan only gives up fog lights, sport interior, and rear spoiler to the RS but will be priced CDN$4000 less. Maybe the RS will quietly disappear for 2005...

ateixeira · January 2004

I bet it will.

Even the 2002 RS lost the rear LSD and the fog lamps, so right away enthusiasts jumped to the WRX. I doubt it has sold well.

May as well offer the TS as a value-priced sedan, and cancel the RS, since performance buyers spring for the WRX anyway.

-juice

98redgrey · January 2004

I purchased my OBS about a week ago ($8500). I have put in a Python 460HP and Eclipse CD3413 since then. Although it has great sound, I still drive in silence to listen for any indication of engine or drivetrain problem. I have a 1 month/1000 mile warranty with a $75 deductible. I put on new a set of Firestone Affinitys. I assume if the tires were not turning smoothly up on the lift (warn bearings?) they would have indicated it? I do love the 6 spoke alloy wheels and the cruise location allows me to sit back and drive with just a finger-too bad I can't brake with it.

-at 94k miles would it be stupid to start using a synthetic or a syn-blend oil? Undercarriage is spotless on engine and differentials. YEAH! BTW, I love the Subie oil pan.

-I am appreciating the 4sp automatic although I still find myself reaching for a clutch when starting.

-I hope the "tightness" of new subie is an indication of the care and dedication and low severity miles that the first and only other owner put into it (knock, knock).

-I wondered about putting in the spare fuse to increase mileage during the summer-but Click & Clack said that was pointless (I bought AWD for reason I guess).

-The transmission does seem to appreciate the driver committing to a slow or fast start. It is always in first after I come to a stop. Just need to learn about Auto trans. BTW, is it dumb to use the 1,2,3 positions like a manual and will this behavior shorten the life? It would seem best to just let it do its job and leave the lower gears for the mountain passes. I drove a 2000 obs 5sp manual with 98,000 miles and the clutch movement seemed like a foot. Even my 95 civic was shorter (are obs clutches hydraulic or mechanical ?)

Does anyone have tips on how to clean the crap (5 years of bugs etc) out of the radiators to make everthing running better?

I love this car-it deserves all the care and repair it needs.

IMHO 98 seems like it was a good year for OBS.

Thanks for reading and Good luck on #6 LA.

ateixeira · January 2004

Congrats and welcome.

I wouldn't bother switching to synthetics now. Your seals are established and I wouldn't mess with it for that reason.

-juice

tuckerdog1 · January 2004

98REDGREY,

My OBS is an '02, but I'd suspect the transmissions work pretty much the same. My owner's manual says 1st & 2nd are just that. When you have the shifter in that spot, that's the gear you get. But 3rd operates like D ( drive ), except it won't shift above 3rd gear into 4th. Suppposed to be good for using engine braking for going downhill, and good to keep it from going into 4th and bogging down going uphill. So who knows what gear you might wind up in as you moved from 2nd into 3rd shifting manually.

I have a transmission question of my own for the group. Is there any benefit to moving from D ( drive ) to nuetral when sitting at a long traffic light? The engine just seems to be more at ease when I do this.

And what is a Python 460HP and an Eclipse CD3413?

Thanks,
Tuckerdog

stevefl · January 2004

The only benefit of any consequence is that you don't have to keep your foot on the brake.

98redgrey · January 2004

And what is a Python 460HP and an Eclipse CD3413?

Python is an alarm by DEI and Eclipse is the stereo deck-nothing fancy but decent for the drive to the slopes

Thanks,
Jon

paisan · January 2004

It's worse to shift to neutral at a light. When you put it back to D it is more stress on the system.

In the 2nd and 3rd generation 4EATs and VTD 4EATs you are correct. 1 = 1st and will bounce off the rev limiter, 2 = 2nd and will bounce off the rev limiter, 3 = 1, 2, 3 like D but no 4th gear. D = 1,2,3,4

In the 1st gen 4EATs if you put it in 1, you get 1st gear and at redline it shifts to 2nd, and so forth. Same with 2, and 3. There is also a Power light on these models that when you nail the gas to the floor, will change the shift points to higher up the rev band. Same thing happens in the 2nd and 3rd gen 4EATs but no dash light to indicate it. On 1st gen 4EATs the way you start in a gear other than 1 is to push the "manual" button and this will enable you to start in 2nd or 3rd gear depending on where you place the gear selector.

The torque split on 1st gen 4EATs is 90/10 initially up to 50/50. On the 2nd and 3rd gen 4EATs it's 80/20 up to 40/60. VTD give you 45/55 torque split and it can vary up to 80/20 from there.

-mike

outback_97 · January 2004

Mike:

How does the 4EAT break down by generations and model years?

I assume my '97 is 2nd generation?
Is our '03 TS 3rd gen?
Will the new '05 Legacies be a new gen, or is the tranny staying the same?

TIA

utahsteve

ateixeira · January 2004

The tranny keeps getting slight revisions. I think they're all related and I'm not even sure I'd call them different generations.

The Forester XT and Legacy get the "Direct Control" automatics, I believe that's the first revision where the internals changed substantially.

-juice

ramza39 · January 2004

I have some questions about the different tire sizes on the Impreza. The size on the TS wagon is 195/60 R15 and this gives the overall diameter of 24.2; the OBS and WRX is 205/55 R16 and the diameter is 24.9; the option for WRX is 215/45 R17 and the diameter is 24.6; but when I check the optional size (17") of the TS wagon on Tire Rack, they recommend 205/45 R17 and there are very few choices. I know the acceptable range of the "Plus" concept is within 3% and the % difference btw. 195 and 205 is 2.89%, so does anyone know this difference will affect the speedometer or other systems on the car? I know many other cars also have different tire sizes but their overall diameters are very close (0.1-0.3"). So does Subaru recalibrate the speedo on RS and WRX?

Another question is I don't quite understand how the 4EAT works? The 2513 message said the torque split is 80/20 initially and up to 40/60 and I am confused because I thought AWD is always 50/50 in normal situation unless there is wheel spin, then it will send power to other wheels. I know the Audi Quattro can send up to 66% of power to one wheel and in normal situation, it is always 50/50. So, does anyone know exactly how the Subaru AWD system work?

thanks,
ramza

outback_97 · January 2004

Ramza:

This link has some good technical info on the 4EAT system:
http://www.endwrench.com/archive/sysdrive.html

We swapped WRX wheels for the stock steel wheels on our '03 TS. Here's a photo:
http://users.sisna.com/ignatius/subaru/mods/wheels/wrxwheel.jpg

There is a

% difference in size, as you noted. We feel the car handles better, although in theory we have lost some off the line speed due to the gearing. This is not noticeable to us, but the improved handling and looks are. We paid $250 for nearly new wheels and tires. Actually the speedometer is now more consistent with that of our '97 OB and more accurate when checked by roadside radar displays. A 50 series tire on the WRX wheels would very closely match the TS's stock circumference, FWIW.

Post 2440 in this thread discusses this as well, and mentions differences in wheel/tire weights. Also I think I brought it up in the "Modifications" board last summer, but at that time I was asking the same kinds of questions. Hope this helps.

utahsteve

paisan · January 2004

Check out my post above...

I've owned 1st and 2nd gen 4EATs.

My guess is that the 5EAT will be the 4th gen of EATs. Also VTD models are different as well. So it is a bit skewed.

IMHO

3rd gen is really the 4EAT that is being sold now. Although there is 3rd gen 4EAT and 3rd gen 4EAT VTD.

They haven't changed much even in the 4EATs with "direct control" or whatever it's called. No new torque splits or sensors used. There is also VDC versions of the 4th gen 4EATs.

-mike

ramza39 · January 2004

thank you for the info..... one more question on the AWD..... so the manual consists of a center differential (similar to Quattro, correct me if I am wrong) and the auto consists of a transfer clutch, so does anyone know which system is better when dealing with slippery condition?

ateixeira · January 2004

Both have inherent advantages.

The viscous coupling does act as a center limited slip diffy, so both axles can get power full time. The default split is 50/50, its main advantage.

It's a little different then VW's because VW uses a torsen (torque sensing). Torsens act quicker but fail completely when there is no resistance, which is why they need traction control on those.

But back to Subaru, the VC will heat up and temporarily lock the two axles together if there is slip. It works great in snow and even on ice.

The Autos are totally different. While they do have a front bias of 80/20 or 90/10, depending on who you ask, they can be proactive. Inputs like throttle position and gear can help it determine to send more power to the rear axle when you hit the gas, for instance. So it's proactive and intelligent, basically, but the default power split feels more like FWD.

Both are very effective in snow.

-juice

mshor · January 2004

I'm considering purchasing a 2002 Outback Sport, automatic, with about 31,100 mi. The dealer is asking $16,900. I like the looks of them and the AWD would be nice here in Indiana where snow removal is done sloppily. But my question for you long-time OBS owners refers to cabin noise and seat comfort. With better tires, did you eliminate road noise? Secondly, how is the seat comfort on long trips? I'm a six-footer who generally requires excellent low back support. The seats felt pretty good in the one test drive I've taken, but that was just a 10 min. drive.

thanks,
mshor

ateixeira · January 2004

Whoa, that price is way, WAY high.

Seriously, I looked the other day on fitzmall.com, and a NEW Outback Sport cost less than that. OK, that was a 5 speed, but auto is only a few hundred more.

Buy new, really, Subies don't depreciate much.

One rule I apply is don't take a loan that's longer than your powertrain warranty. Subaru's is 5 years, so with a 5 year loan you'll be covered for the big stuff until it's paid off.

If you get a 2002, you have about 3 years left on the warranty, payments on a 3 year loan will actually be much higher, for you to have it paid off by the end of that warranty.

Buy new unless you can get them way down to $13k or so.

-juice

damish003 · January 2004

mshor-

I'm your height, and have similar back needs (slipped lower disk). For me, almost no seat in any car is great, but by putting a small lumbar pillow on the seat it's just fine. That, and finding the right combination of height adjustment and seat recline. Once you play with it a bit, you'll be perfectly comfortable. And I take mine for long drives.

And for those who know, my 04 OBS is now fixed. I'll pick it up tonight. The thing saved me from an awful hurt, so I've missed it the past almost two months.

-Dan-

mshor · January 2004

Edmunds.com lists the dealer retail for this car at $14,438, and Kelley Blue Book is at $15,965. Why the disparity, I wonder? Thanks, BTW, for all the info everyone. I may get a new Subie instead; it depends on how well the dealership wants to "deal."

mshor

ateixeira · January 2004

KBB is always high. In fact I use them when I want to sell a car because it inflates the value, then even if I deal down I get what I want for it.

-juice

outback_97 · January 2004

mshor:

The dealers here in Salt Lake City tend to ask inflated prices on Subies too. They're extremely popular here. A year ago we looked at some auto '02 OBS's w/ 20K miles... they wanted $18K for them. They laughed at my suggestion that $15.5K was a fair price for them. So, we went down the road and bought a brand new '03 TS with auto and some options for around $17.5K. Better financing on the new one too.

The OBS has some features that the TS doesn't, but we didn't care for the 2-tone as much anyway, so the TS was a better choice for us. FWIW, they are 98% the same car, so you might consider the TS as well. In any case, shop around and educate yourself. This site has some good info, but it's not very popular with dealers:
http://www.carbuyingtips.com/

I'm 6'4" and find the car comfortable to drive, but the seat is all the way back and a tall person couldn't sit behind me very comfortably. We drove the car 2300 miles in a week, I was a little sore but would have been in any car. I'd say the seats are better than most cars I've driven, although I like the leather ones in my OB better. Cabin noise is worse in the OB though.

utahsteve

jeff186 · February 2004

Is the Impreza built in Japan or the US?

dcm61 · February 2004

ateixeira · February 2004

The plant is in Gunma, Japan. Foresters are also built there.

Baja, Legacy, and Outback are built at SIA in Lafayette, Indiana.

-juice

tuckerdog1 · February 2004

I'd expect any model Subaru would demand a higher price in an area of the country that gets snow. but $18K with 20K miles!I'd have gone for the TS as well. I'm in Texas. Bought an '02 OBS in Nov. Had 12,800 miles. Is in excellent condition. Auto trans & several nice options. My two favorites being the upgraded speaker system & arm rest extender. I've kinda grown to like the carbon fiber look trim. but I'd never have ordered it. Too expensive. But I drove it away for $13,170+TTL. I do think I was in the right place at he right time though. After doing some comparison shopping, I think that was a pretty good price even for here.
The AWD does come in handy down here in TX as well. We don't get much snow, but it rains so hard the roads can't drain it off as fast as it comes down. So it can get pretty dicey on the freeway. but this car handles it like nothing I've ever driven before. I love it.

Tuckerdog

ateixeira · February 2004

You got a steal, the original owner took a pretty big hit and you have a car that is barely broken in. Congrats.

-juice

jeff186 · February 2004

Does the front passenger seat fold flat, like the new Malibu's does? And does anyone know how long an object can fit inside the Impreza with the back seat folded down and the front passenger seat upright? My thanks for the info.

ateixeira · February 2004

No, but there is a work-around.

Slide the front passenger seat forward, then recline it all the way. You have to remove the head rest.

I've fit very long lumber inside my Forester that way. You can insert it all the way into the passenger foot well. Use a tarp to keep the interior clean.

-juice

jeff186 · February 2004

Between the Impreza TS and the Suzuki Aerio SX. Both are hatches, and I would get the Suzuki with all wheel drive. Cargowise, I think the Aerio has more room. But I wonder about reliability of the Suzuki, CR has insufficient data in its ratings. Costwise, the Suzuki wins hands down.

ateixeira · February 2004

I looked at the Aerio when I went to test drive an XL7.

IMO, the Subaru is more substantial. If I got in a wreck, I'd definitely want to be in the TS.

Also look at some details, the finished edges of the carpet, the welds in the door jambs. The Zook has more loose/sharp edges, it's a small detail but I see cheaper construction.

Aerio is very space efficient, tall and upright, and 140hp would probably still be adequate given the low price.

But if I could afford the TS, I'd get that.

-juice

gogiboy · February 2004

Hello, I'm new to this group because I'm contemplating a couple of different vehicles and I'm seriously considering the Subaru Impreza Outback as well as the Subaru WRX wagon particularly because the dealership is offering both vehicles below invoice until the end of the month with Sub. rebates applied.

My main question is has anyone tried carry a bike upright in the back with the rear seats folded down? I'm thinking I would remove the bike's front wheel and perhaps the seat/seatpost. I realize that the bike could easily be carried flat or on a roof rack, but if I want to carry it inside I also have to accommodate my two dogs (and wife). Thanks.

cbmorton · February 2004

Most people with Impreza wagons go with a roof rack or a hitch rack to haul their bike(s) along. I haven't tried it, but when this question comes up on other Subaru forums the consensus from those who have tried putting a bike in there is that only very small bike frames could conceivably fit inside standing upright with the front wheel removed.

ateixeira · February 2004

I have a hitch and the hitch mounted bike rack, it's great. It even tilts out of the way to open the rear hatch.

-juice

outback_97 · February 2004

TS owners: If you want to add the handy map lights that Subaru somehow forgot to install in your TS wagon, it's quite easy. I put in a set this weekend and will be doing a writeup with instructions... I'll post a link here.

Basically it involves getting power from the dome light wiring under the passenger side a-pillar trim, cutting a suitable hole in the headliner above the rear-view mirror, then screwing the map light assembly in using the holes which are already there, awaiting your new map light.

utahsteve

ateixeira · February 2004

Way to go Steve. I wouldn't mind having lights for the vanity mirrors.

-juice

ozman62 · February 2004

Steve, Waiting with bated breath... Is this a TS specific part?
Owen

outback_97 · February 2004

http://users.sisna.com/ignatius/subaru/mods/maplights/
Check it out, let me know what you think.

Owen: It is definitely not a TS specific light, in fact you need to ask for the part for a WRX or OBS and you may get dumb looks from parts counter folk if you ask them for a map light for the TS. FYI I'm talking about the U.S. versions of these cars, I can't guarantee the Canadian version is identical. You lucky folks get some stuff we don't get, of course we get roof racks on our TS's

utahsteve

ateixeira · February 2004

Great documentation, but I'd love to see the "after" photo.

I was doing something similar to my Miata but was interrupted half way through and never finished. I guess I should...

-juice

outback_97 · February 2004

cbmorton · February 2004

Looks good. That and the cargo area light being left out of the TS always seemed like somewhat chintzy omissions to me. However, I've heard that adding the cargo light to a TS is also a fairly easy task.

outback_97 · February 2004

The cargo area light is quite easy to install, moreso than the map lights. It was one of the first things I added to the TS.

Chintzy omissions, I agree, but bigger profits for Subaru. Add a few hundred dollars of content to the TS, paint it differently, call it an Outback Sport, and sell it for $1200 more. And sell a lot more of them because (most) people want that extra content and don't want to add it themselves. Pretty smart, actually.

utahsteve

Subaru Impreza Outback Sport & TS

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