Audi allroad

rennmann911 · January 2004

Mark (and anyone else for that matter)just went to the dealer and inquired about the sport BPV that, from another thread, is supposed ot be avail from the dealer. THey had no clue to this or the 200 installed price of sport sway bars. Any part numbers?

markcincinnati · January 2004

The Swaybar and bushings are separate items and are from the Audi parts catalog for an Audi A6 sport suspension (rear sway bar only). It is often called the PSK mod, since that was the code for ordering an A6 with a sport suspension.

The stock rear sway bar on an Audi allroad is 15mm in diameter. The sport version is 18mm -- these silly three millimeters lessen the body's roll during hard cornering, keeping the car more level than without it.

Couple this with lower profile 17" or 18" tires (on appropriately sized wheels) and at least a -10mm lowering of the allroad's suspension effectively making level 2 about where level 1 is and lowering level 1 to an even more sporting height (I lowered mine -12mm).

The sport BPV's came from Hoppen Motorsports, they are on the WWW and I purchased the BPV's from him -- both the BPV's and the sway bar and bushings were installed by my dealer.

The sway bar was around $120 and the installation of the swaybar and BPV's was about $100.

I also had the dealer lower the car via the computer and realign it -- no charge.

I had new wheels and tires shipped to the dealer and they also mounted and balanced 4 18 RS 6 Sport replica wheels and 245 x 45 x 18" UHP tires.

Have a blast.

rennmann911 · January 2004

So, after looking at the web site(nice stuff), what does the SBPV do exactly? Is there a raise in performance? How about adding a test pipe' to the system and rid the exhaust of the cats? This used to be a great fix and I would expect in turbocharged cars would make a big difference. I live in a emission free area so sky's the limit with this...

I understand the sway bars, this turbo stuff is quite a bit different though. My last turbo was quite a while ago.
I may check into lowering the car once winter is over, then have them raise it next winter again... if its that easy (do they need to realign every time?)
Thanks for your help. We are enjoying the car and have to laugh now at the SUV crowd (which we were in for awhile with our ML430) Now my little girls car.
The fit and finish is top notch -- even compared to our E class and 911 (the ML can't compete) --this could not have been said of Audi in previous years.
The capability of this car on and off road (we have had a few snowy trail excursions) is phenomenal. if the ML were not lifted a bit with larger tires I might say better than the Benz. Surely a car that will last awhile in our household. I think the only car/SUV that can compare or ??? is the Cayenne S or Turbo...but for quite a bit more cash and the look is questionable. Not to mention the stabs I would get from my local PCA buddies! Thanks again.

Oh BTW, has anyone had any issues with the speakers? I seem the hear a buzzing when the bass kicks in (in the door speakers) I have the Symphony system and I will say that the system seems to lack compaired with competitors. I think I heard the buzz in other allroads and A6s as well on test drives...

markcincinnati · January 2004

Sport By Pass Valves add a subtle boost to performance -- the boost sticks around longer because the SBPV's have a stiffer spring.

There also is a subtle sound change a bit more VROOOOOMMMM under full throttle acceleration. There are no chip / warranty issues; but there is also nothing near the effect of a chip.

The lowering is a one time deal -- about -12mm and 1 all wheel alignment do the trick. Unless you seriously go off road, there would be no reason to undo it.

When we have piles of snow, I set the thing to level 3, on freeways when snow is not an issue, level 2 and on the "twisties" (and no snow) level 1. I have used level 4 1 time to park in a "corn field" that had been set up as a parking lot for a concert.

Expect a mild but discernable performance change with the SBPV's -- don't expect a transformation.

The lower profile and higher performance tires, wheels, sport sway bar and lowering will, however, be a handling transformation.

If you want a power transformation, your least expensive route is a chip from APR, MTM, AWE or others. Some folks, swear by the chips -- I don't feel the 6spd needs one, especially with the SBPV's.

If you have a tip, you may want to consider a tip chip which helps with the problems associated with the transmission, the so-called tip lag.

rennmann911 · January 2004

Mark thanks for all the info. I just ordered the exhaust system from Hoppen along with the SBPV. I am also looking for some 18x9 inch wheels for summer use.
I am not a fan of chips --they seem to confuse the engine mgt. sys at times on my truck (check eng light comes on). Also, the parameters of safety in the engine would be closed in. I have not seem much on a tip-chip though. that might be interesting as there is a bit of 'thinking' that trany does when driving styles change. If this is the same developed trans as on the Porsche, there is much to be improved on the speed and programs of shifts.

jma37 · January 2004

Mark, I'll direct this question to you since you seem to be "the man" on this allroad site:

Lease on my 2001 X-5 is expiring end of April and I've really got it down to two choices: Volvo V70-R and an allroad 2.7T (want to get 6sp after reading your posts but worried about sitting on the clutch in Long Island traffic, as well as a manual learning-phobic wife). Loved the Volvo @ the test drive, but have always admired more the allroad exterior styling and interior (I know not the most important things when leasing a new car, but still...)

Anyway, a big red flag has come up. My dad is the owner of a 2003 allroad 2.7T tiptronic. His car has been in the shop constantly, due to a malfunctioning of the air suspension system. Not sure of the details. Apparently the springs are "flimsy" and break easily, he uses the car in fairly rugged terrain with some frequency and often adjusts the height as he needs it. A rep at the dealership said--at his own job risk, I suppose--that this is a known problem on the car, as well as on the suspension of the A8-L!.

I've driven his car and really loved everything about it, but I worry about things like this when I've also read reports (JD Power?) of Audi's reliability ratings being on the lower side of average. What info can you provide on the subject of the air suspension? Many thanks.

markcincinnati · January 2004

. . .I have had no suspension issues, period. I have virtually had no issues at all with this car and I am now at 25K miles.

I urge you to post your questions and concerns in other forums too. There are several all over the Internet.

I have read of some issues, yes, but most of the issues were with the 01 models. The air suspension that the allroad uses has evolved to such an extent that the technology is the basis for the Audi A8, Porshce Cayenne and the VW Phaeton and Touareg (and rumored ditto for the upcoming Audi Pike's Peak.)

100% bullet proof -- nope, nothing is. But Audi has a great deal of experience with the technology. Now, the allroad is for all roads and perhaps some "off roads."

I consider my allroad the most capable car I have ever had -- but I do not think it would be a substitute for a "Rubicon Trail Tested" Jeep, or other similarly designed vehicle.

It is in my opinion more capable than an X5 in many ways, except for its towing capacity.

I would get another one in a heartbeat.

I would NEVER have any European car without the full faith and credit of the manufacturer's warranty (either the original 50,000 mile warranty or the extended to 100,000 mile version)!

jma37 · February 2004

A belated thanks...The sales mgr. at my local Audi dealer aknowleged the problem being more prevalent in the 2001 models as you indicated, and he had heard of it to a lesser extent in the 2003 version. Said the problem was fixed in the '04s. Details of the actual problem were too technical for me, I'll admit.

Test driving the 2.7T tip again, didn't notice too much hesitation--still seemed plenty quick to me. Out of curiosity, do you know the 0-60 difference between the tip and the 6-speed? I read different things.

BTW, my sales rep. also said that the price difference on a 39-mo. lease, if I took a 6sp, would be marginal. Wonder if he could possibly be trying to push the tip over the 6sp? But since I can tell how much you prefer the 6sp over the tip, if he's being up front about the price, are there reasons other than smoother acceleration (not that it isn't an insignificant reason) to choose it over the tip? Choosing the latter eases the burden of driving in traffic (I do every day) and having to worry about my wife having to drive the car in some cases...

markcincinnati · February 2004

0-100kph 6sd = 6.8 seconds.

0-100kph Tip = 7.3 seconds.

Interestingly, the 4.2, tip only, is 6.9 seconds time to 100kph. And it's $5k more.

The allroad 4.2 was the answer to a question no one asked, IMHO. But, nothing sounds sweeter than that V8 engine, so I CAN see the appeal. I just wish it had a lower final drive ratio so that it could be the quickest allroad on the road.

With the railing against the current tip transmission, I would probably not buy any 5spd tip at the momemnt.

The 6spd tip and the DSG, however, are horses of a different color.

Prediction, 2005 will see the 6spd tip start a move into the Audi lineup (currently only in the A8, S4 and 180HP TT front track.)

jma37 · February 2004

Unfortunately, the 4.2's appetite for fuel is stronger as well!

You did write buy, not lease, the 5sp tip. Was that intentional, or is it just linguistics? I am interested in a lease. And again, although I enjoy the manual, I can't ignore my soon-to-be 80 mile round-trip commute which will be mostly in heavy Long Island traffic.

Interestingly enough, the lease cost estimate I received for the 6sp vs. the tip was identical.

Thanks for the numbers!

markcincinnati · February 2004

I do not advocate buying cars -- and it works FOR ME.

My phrase -- stolen from a CPA -- buy what appreciates, rent what depreciates. This was at a time when I was living in an apartment and buying a car "on time payments."

Commencing with my first Audi, a 1978 Audi 5000, I have leased every car save one -- a 1987 Audi 5000 CS turbo quattro which I bought from the dealer who had taken it in on trade at the tender age of 10 months -- and I paid cash for it (in 1988).

It was a figure of speech, in other words.

Disclaimer: leasing may not work for everyone for many reasons. In the current climate of low low low interest rates, I can not see any justification for paying cash -- Greenspan, et al may change this as might inflation (buy in today's dollars and pay back in tomorrows, i.e.)

The balloon payment, open ended lease option, second mortgage on your house with deductable interest are all currently viable options if leasing doesn't fit your needs.

I urge short leases 36 (not 39) months or less and start the out process about 4 or 5 months prior to lease end (because it takes about that long to order a new one).

The 39 month lease, unless you can "early out" will cut your monthly payment -- true. But for many of us that extra three months can mean, too close to the warranty limit, you will be forced to buy new tires or other replacement items. So, for me -- and maybe you -- the 39 month lease which is ever so popular, is a false savings over the 36 month lease (unless you truly do drive less than 15K miles per year -- I don't!)

I have had 24, 27, 30 and 36 month leases -- frankly I think 33 months would be ideal as it would probably put you into a situation where you could make a determination which model year you want to trade into as the lease nears its end.

But, then again this applies [most ardently] to Audi-loyalists like me, who, cannot imagine ever having another brand of car (based on what I know now).

newie · February 2004

Hello,
i am new to wagons and am trying to decide between the BMW 3 (or 5) series wagon and the Audi. i would love any ones opinion! i like them both!
Thanks!

markcincinnati · February 2004

. . . is based on an Audi A6 wagon, but it has a number of design and build features that add a big dose of crossover SUV to its pedigree.

-floorpan 20% "stronger"
-suspension [air adjustable, manual & automatic] four settings, the highest about the same as a Jeep Grand
-full time AWD with Torsen
-6spd manual transmission available
-250HP twin turbo engine with 258ftlbs of torque south of 2000 RPMs
-body cladding and skid plates

Std: ABS+brake assist ESP

There is no A6 avant (wagon) other than the 3.0 V6 version or the 340HP 4.2 V8 S6 [neither of these can go "off road"] version that offers the "all roads" capabilities.

The allroad is much sportier than the "normal" A6, and can be simply and easily be made more so for little money.

The allroad fully equipped is less than an A6 2.7T.

The BMW's are great cars but do not have even a hint of "all road" capabilities.

If you do not need these skills, the BMW -- assuming it/they are offered with AWD -- are strong contenders.

The allroad is sometimes called the "Swiss Army Knife" of cars.

All is not rosy however with the allroad -- but the same can be said with most cars. The allroad can be had with a V8, but in that guise cannot be had with the 6spd transmission.

The allroad 2.7T is turbocharged, some folks think this is less attractive than a normally asipriated vehicle.

The BMW's have a great pedigree and are more popular than the allroads -- this may or may not be a good thing for you. The Audi image and pedigree continues to improve -- but here in the US the BMW and Audi while both in the Premium class are not considered equivalent by most folks. The BMW still enjoys people saying "it's a BMW" -- Audi continues to improve but is not quite there.
Conversely, Mercedes seems to be slipping in this regard.

The BMWs and the allroad can be compared but the allroad IS NOT a traditional station wagon and perhaps the comparison should be:

A4 Audi to 3 Series BMW

A6 Audi to 5 Series BMW

allroad Audi PERHAPS to X5 BMW, although the allroad is "better suited" to more off the normal road activities according to many automotive journalists (not in any way meant to dis the Bimmer).

Warranty = all inclusive 50,000 miles (both brands)

If you want a less traditional wagon and a capable yet non traditional SUV, look at the Porshce Cayenne and the VW Touareg. There is a new BMW, the X3 which shares much of the X5's "stuff" but is still more of a paved road companion than some others (including the allroad).

Other vehicles that may fill the bill -- Infinity FX35 and 45, Subaru's wagons, Cadillac SRX.

jma37 · February 2004

As you can see I'm bouncing around a little on my choices for my next car.

Found a used 2003 S6 (blue w/ ivory interior) avail. for low 50's. 6200 miles. Fully loaded. One test drive with those 340 horses made me forget rather quickly about the 2.7T tip for the moment.

Seems like a must buy (life is already too short) for a rare car, but my biggest concern is the white interior upkeep with the alcantera. Anyone have opinions on how the suede wears over time? Ways to protect it, other than seatcovers which kind of defeats the purpose of the look)?

I could also go with a new S4 Avant lease and build it exactly the way I choose (dark interior, no alcantera) but am concerned about the size and seemingly very high cost. Also would take 3 months to deliver (one month in a rental) while I could have my used S6 this weekend. Understand the S4 could be quicker than the S6 due to smaller size and a more nimble nature, but 6.3 0-60 is already pretty quick for the S6. Am also wondering if comfort level varies between the 2 S's? I know the S4 Avant is much smaller in the rear seats and storage.

Would welcome feedback from Mark or anyone who has an opinion. Thanks.

jma37 · February 2004

Test drove the S4 Avant. Great performance, but my wife didn't like the bumps. I also felt it was a little too small.

I think it comes down to a used loaded 2003 S6 for 50-52K with 6200 miles vs. the V8 4.2 allroad, which I have not found available to test drive. Curious if the 4.2 eliminates the 2.7T's occasional hesitation off the line.

The allroad should also be around for a few years, and how many low-mileage S6 Avants will be primed for "taking"?

markcincinnati · February 2004

boomsama · March 2004

well looks like i posted in the wrong spot so i'll post here. After catching up on 13 pages of positive opinions about the allroad, it sure sounds like its a good car. I checked it out myself at the motor show and im beginning to like it a lot. I'm looking for a new car soon, and the allroad is a major contender. The thing is, is it still a good time to buy the allroad even though they may most likely stop producing it when the new A6 is released?

cheers

markcincinnati · March 2004

Technically, the allroad will be in production as a current car through week 21 of 2005. The car, as you know it now will be the body style you will see in this final version of the allroad.

Audi will carry this car here in the US throughout much of 2005, but you can assume that inventory replenishment may be held down somewhat by dealers who don't want to have leftovers sitting around unsold for protracted periods.

OK, now what?

Do you like the allroad? Will it meet your needs? Will it satisfy your wants?

If these questions are answered in the affirmative, I would not hesitate to buy one of these fine cars. If I really wanted to keep the car for 6 years or 100,000 miles (or longer), I would probably strongly consider the V8 version despite my personal distate for automatic transmissions. Under no circumstances can I suggest acquiring the V6 with an automatic.

For sheer performance, the V6 allroad is the leader -- when it is equipped with the 6spd manual.

The V8 allroad has the "new" design 4.2L V8 which means lower maintenance requirements and most probably a longer life expectancy due to the fact that even the Audi turbos are less reliable than an engine that doesn't use forced induction.

I have the 2.7T 6spd (MY 2003). This is the best Audi -- of about 30 -- I have ever had. I would not hesitate to recommend this car to anyone who wants a sporty-sedan crossed with a BMX X5 (which is to say an on-road SUV). The allroad is "all road" capable -- but it is not going to win a Jeep Jamboree (but, the sales people did put allroad's to the off road test against Jeeps, RX300s, BMW X5's and other "like minded" vehicles.) The allroad held its own in all but the worst of conditions due in large part to the 4 position air suspension which raises its ground clearance to be the equal of a standard suspension Jeep Grand (the Jeep can be ordered with an "up country" suspension which increases its ground clearance over the normal 8.2").

In any case, the allroad is very capable on "all roads" and more capable than most cars on freeways and secondary roads -- where it will spend 98% of its time anyway.

The allroad is reliable -- 26K miles on mine and no major system issues PERIOD. The allroad is thirsty (20+MPG is about it overall -- best case is 24+MPG on long freeway trips). The allroad will "outgun" 90% of all cars in the stop light acceleration category (0-100KPH in 6.8 seconds w/6spd manual; and, an Audi A6 4.2 sport sedan, by comparison, can do it in 6.7 seconds -- and for a lot more money).

The allroad is quiet, comfortable, luxurious and, when equipped with every possible do-dad with the 2.7T engine/6spd manual combo is about $49K -- and that includes the way way way overpriced factory phone -- which is a must have, so whattya gonna do?)

The 2.7T allroad has probably what is a contender for the world's crappiest OEM tires -- other than driving the car off the boat and on and off the delivery truck, my OEM tires have zero miles on them. New tires and/or new tires and wheels on the allroad transforms the car into the "swiss army knife" of cars -- the only thing it can't do is morph into a convertible.

The car is unflappable in virtually any weather that mother nature can throw at it -- it is such a treat to drive in winter, passing everything else in sight on a hill while they're all "slip slidin' away" on the thin ice of a new day (couldn't resist, once I got on a roll).

The allroad will be missed by those of us lucky enough to have discovered it. I say discover 'cause god knows Audi didn't do anything to promote or market this exceptional and exceptionally secret car.

Get one. To have one is to love it!

Of course, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong. But, I'm not.

boomsama · March 2004

well i absolutely love the car the more i look at it. The only concern was the production time it had left, but it looks like youve taken care of that pretty well. So whens a good time to buy? Now? or later when they start adding loads of freebies to get rid of them?

markcincinnati · March 2004

boomsama · March 2004

mmm...one last thing, ive read many reviews that say the allroad has a lot of understeer...is this true?

markcincinnati · March 2004

In stock form, with stock tires (225x55x17") a 2.7T has "body roll" and yes it does understeer.

Even in stock form (although I have no experience with the stock tires for any period of time beyond the initial test drive since I replaced my tires the day BEFORE I picked up my car) the allroad does handle more like an Audi mid-size sedan than any other quasi-SUV or Wagon I could imagine.

Here is what many do to their allroads:

1. replace the stock tires or the stock wheels and tires with 245 x 45 x 18" wheel/tire combo (total cost range $650 - $1900 or more if you go for more expensive wheels than the average allroad buyer acquires)

2. replace stock swaybars with either an Audi A6 sport rear swaybar or a special aftermarket front and rear swaybar set (total cost range $200 - $400)

3. using the built in computer, many of us have commanded the air suspension to lower itself at least an additional 10mm -- I went -12mm) which does what you would think, it lowers the center of gravity and stiffens the springs slightly making the handling less prone to understeer

4. inflating the front tires to +2 to +3lbs over the rear tires since there is more weight on the front end of the car, reducing the tendancy of the car to "sprain its ankles."

My allroad underwent:

Plus one wheel and tire sizing, replacement of "allroad" tires with Ultra High Performance lower profile tires -- cost about $1900; and, dealer calibrated suspension to -12mm over stock settings and dealer ordered and installed rear 18mm antisway bar and bushings (from the A6 sport suspension package) cost about $200 -- and a "free" all wheel alignment and on-car spin balancing of tires/wheels. The car's handling was transformed and understeer and body-roll were substantially reduced -- BUT NOT ELIMATED.

I have the 6spd 2.7T version which is the quickest allroad made (quicker even than the V8 by .1 second; and over $5,000 less). The lack of a torque converter and lack of tip lag coupled with the above outlined mods has created a sporty quasi-SUV that just happens to be quite capable of going on "all" roads, even if there isn't pavement.

boomsama · March 2004

I can order the allroad with the 18" wheels, and can do the tire inflating, but I don't know how to use the in built computer or how to access it. Also...how can I replace the sway bars? (what are they?)

If I only had the 18" wheels, would that still reduce the understeer/bodyroll?

And even without all these changes, is the car still a good drive?

markcincinnati · March 2004

If you can order the allroad with 18" wheels that is news to me, unless of course you are talking about the allroad with the 4.2L engine.

The swaybars can be replaced either both or rear only -- I would get used to the car without the stiffer swaybars and see if the body roll contributes to your feeling of understeer and porkiness -- most people would not think this car is porky -- unless they were thinking that the car would be an S4 or TT.

The 18" wheels and UHP tires will make the car turn in better, it will sharpen the steering and I guess there is one way to look at it, at least, that would support the notion that the car will understeer less, but I suspect the body roll will still be there without the uprated rear sway bar or both F+R swaybars.

The dealer can access the computer to lower the suspension and then can do the all wheel alignment.

This, too, I would recommend only after you have lived with the car -- if you have the 18" wheel and UHP tires in size 245 x 45 x 18" and drive the car on level 1 -- with everything else being standard (and, presumably you are ordering the V8) -- for about 2 or 3 months you will get a feel for the character of the car.

Unless you push this car hard, very hard into corners, I believe I can tell you that you will love the car even without the swaybar and lowering.

The combination of the wheels/tires, swaybar and lowering just intensifies the sporting characteristics of this car and will not make it harsh or uncomfortable (tires will make the biggest difference either negative or positive on this vehicle -- I went for UHP, Summer only, Ultra Quiet Z rated tires, which improved the turn in and make the car virtually silent insofar as road noise is concerned.)

I can make further suggestions -- how much do you want to spend? -- if you like.

Apparently you are going for the V8 -- my last biased comment is, if you do go for the V6 turbo, avoid the tiptronic automatic transmission.

And in 6spd manual mode the milage is better and the 6spd V6 is the quickest allroad of them all and is $5K+ less than the V8 (what were they thinking). You can buy a lot of subtle performance mods for $5K.

kylep · March 2004

I was also thinking about the 4.2 Allroad, but you make some good points here about the benefit vs. cost. Two questions come to mind though:

Why are you so against the 2.7T Tiptronic, and what are your thoughts about the aftermarket performance chips? A friend mine has one in his S4 and it's a rocket.

boomsama · March 2004

well down here in aus, im thinking of getting the 2.7T with the optional 225/45 R18 wheels

markcincinnati · March 2004

In NA on the 2.7T we get two "factory" wheel choices both 17" and both come with "allroad" specific tires (poor) of size 225 x 55 x 17". The othe allroad variant here -- 4.2L -- only comes with a 5spd tip but is offered with either the 17" or 18" wheels -- if equipped with the 18" wheels the tires become UHP or Max performance 245 x 45 x 18" name brand tires (summer only).

The tiptronic transmission -- and I will restrict my remarks to the 5spd version. Although I have read remarks pertaining to the 6spd that makes me believe that the 6spd may have the same issues, I will not comment since I would be repeating other's concerns rather than my own first hand experiences with corroboration from dozens or hundreds of other folks who have bothered to post here, elsewhere and write to the Audi Car Club of North America.

Note: this is NOT specificially confined to Audi, VW group and Porsche. I have heard and read the same issues from those who have "steptronics" and whatever-tronics offered by other European brands and -- at the very least -- Acura.

The tiptronic is a learning transmission. The system that the tip uses also incorporates another technical feature called "drive by wire" -- that is the accelerator does not directly cause something to happen to the fuel delivery; rather, the depressing or releasing of the accelerator simply causes a command to be issued to the fuel pumping an delivery (injection) mechanism. The drive by wire system in conjunction with the tip transmission is the reason for my dislike (which may be too strong of a word, although many many other folks actually go so far as to post their feelings which often go so far as to claim the tip is life threatening.)

Imagine driving along, singing a song do da do da -- and coming off the exit ramp of an Interstate onto a secondary road. Imagine a half mile later a stop sign or traffic light and you slow to a "NEAR STOP" -- the so called rolling stop -- look both ways and determine the car coming is far enough away that you can simply call upon acceleration to get you through the intersection with aplomb.

OK, so you press the accelerator about 1/3 down and literally NOTHING happens -- there is a 1 to 4 second pause (I would characterize the pause as routinely 2+ seconds). You see the other car coming at you at a 90 degree angle and your car is dead -- unresponsive. So, you floor the pedal and the car LEAPS into action -- and you make it through the intersection safely but with great fanfare and totally NOT smooth.

Next intersection, this time a full on red light,you come to a complete stop and when the light changes, with the memory of the last "dead spot" still fresh in your brain, you again feel the need to overcompensate and press the accelerator far further than normal -- the car in first gear (with either the turbo or the V8) lunges forward, again completely unsmooth (and some would say uncool).

Time and time again you start, stop, slow, stop, start, slow, start, etc etc etc. And, things seem to return to normal and you begin to believe that the dead spot was just a one off event.

Until two days later the dead spot action/reaction and your response with your accelerator foot are repeated.

The "lag" between the command (issued by your foot) and the acceptance of the command become an issue of constant "I wonder if THIS time it will be a smoothe or herky-jerky take off?"

Moreover, the gas milage of the tip is worse, the performance is worse, the allroad with the tip lists for a higher price than the 6spd and the -- for me -- annoying mystery transmission algorithm got the better of many of us.

The final straw is that the 2.7T and the 4.2 are virtually identical cars (heated steering wheel and power tilt and telescope w/memory and the 18" wheels are the key differences -- for about $5,000+).

So you buy this magnificent allroad with one of the sweetest sounding and performing engines made today (that mere mortals can afford) and it is less quick than the 2.7T with an arguably more fun, less annoying transmission.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think the 4.2 is superior to the 2.7T (engine) and it is therefore probably worth more thant he 2.7T -- IF it was .1 second quicker (or more). It just amazes me that you can now spend $5K more for a V8 and have it potentially see the tailights of its fraternal twin V6 sibling.

The issue was formerly called turbo lag, but it happens across the Audi range (again I am excluding the 6spd tip, the CVT and the DSG due to lack of experience and evidence). The issue is now rightly caused DBW (drive by wire) or tip lag -- and it is SOMEWHAT mitigated by putting the tip in "S" mode (sport) which makes the transmission remain in lower gears (hence more power) longer. I think there is conflicting evidence pertaining to the tip chip too -- so I will not debate that either.

If you like the allroad with a tip, I submit you will love it with a stick. However, therefore, notwithstanding -- I do not think you should NOT get an allroad with a tip if that is your choice or want or need for whatever reason.

Take a long long test drive of the 2.7T with a stick -- that would be my strongest advice. I did drive both versions and the performance alone (as I was not thinking about tip lag in a test drive) sold me. The allroad 2.7T tip reminded me greatly of both my 1996 S6 and the several test drives of the last generation S4 in terms of its quickness and overall "urge."

Drive it like YOU live, not 'cause someone said so. Just do yourself the favor of the long test drive of both flavors. And if you MUST have a tip transmission, then go for the V8 and don't look back, just grin every time you punch the "loud" pedal and be done with it.

jrosasmc · March 2004

I'm just curious: Do the Audi V-6 engines come with variable valve timing, and how long have they had that feature?

boomsama · March 2004

well...i took the V6 and V8 for a test drive. I tried to like them, but unfortunately i just couldnt. The amount of time between pressing the accelerator and the time that the car actually moved was staggering, especially on the V8. Ride wasnt as smooth as I was expecting it to be.

markcincinnati · March 2004

I keep ranting on and on about the tip lag -- and also suggesting that a lot of folks don't seem to notice it or at least it doesn't bother them.

I think the amazing thing is to press the pedal and wait about 2 seconds for the surge of power.

The surge is NOW with the six-spped. Did you at least try it?

kylep · March 2004

Mark - thanks. Good input and things to consider. The Audi dealer a couple of miles from me is part of the 24 hour test drive program Audi is offering, so it should be a good opportunity for me to spend a day with the car - which ever one it might be. I commute 20 miles each way to work daily and have always thought that I wouldn't go for a stick again - last one was a BMW 533i years ago - but the new highway that allows me a 2-turn trip with reduced traffic over the 20 mile trip should be open within the year so maybe it's time to bring the run back to driving. I'll let you know where it nets out...thanks again

sfsteve · April 2004

I have 60K miles & just found out I need a new transmission for approx $10K. No help from Audi either on cost. Anbody else out there have transmission problems?

tonester · April 2004

Good day to all,
Mark's comments are really good - as usual.
I would like to throw in my 2 cents as a 2.7t tipster owner.
If you're used to driving a cable accelerator, yes, the lag can be quite annoying.
I've taken the other side of this - the car is so advanced, I have to learn how to drive again. Drive by wire is very sensitive - very. I'm talking hearing the revs go up because of pressure on the pedal and not physical depression of it. Yes I said that and no, I'm not loopy...as it would seem.
I find often if I want to get off the line in a hurry, slap it into 1st, not D or S. Learn to use the accelerator. This is so important for you to enjoy the Tip. I've learned to love it without clutching!
In the old days, one would just mash the pedal and go - but with this technology, I found that you have to be one with the engineers that built it - not just a pedal, cable and carb. By thinking ahead, controlling your fear factor to mash it, but to smoothly apply pressure in the face of an oncoming car that you want to scoot by, you'll find a new sense of driving pleasure...without clutch.
I want to qualify - I am clutch guy and have only had manual gears. This is only the second personal car I've owned with auto. The first was an ML 320 and we won't get into that piece of junk, except that it also had DBW. It taught me; Mercedes explained and taught me.

So - all that said - Yes, when I revert to knuckle dragging, the tip is lagging. But, when I move up with the times and learn this technology, which is really just an option on the car, not a must, the Tip is not bad at all.

Add all the great comments from Mark about the 2.7 being better etc, and the Allroad is just too awesome!

I'm up to 25k on mine. I just loaded 350 lbs of garden stuff in the trunk, felt the sag on teh rear of the car, turned the key, felt the air shocks level themselves out to compensate for the weight on the back side, drove away like it wasn't even there! God I love this car!!!

By the way - everybody should spend the $350 for the H-sports anti-sway bars - what a difference!! The car went from mushy to perfect!

Buy the car - you won't be sorry!

In the Rangers, we said - "Rangers lead the way!"
For this car - I say - "Allroads all the way!"

swccme · April 2004

Currently, own a 2001 Allroad 2.7T. During the last 8 months have experienced frequent "Check Engine" light. It has been serviced by the dealer numerous times with last service replacing hoses and oxygen sensors. The check engine light has come on twice since the major repair of hoses three months ago. Upon returning to the dealer to reset the light no consistent codes are given. At times the check engine light appears while driving and within several days is self eliminating. Called Audi re: extending warranty since this seems to be a continuing problem. Audi denied the request. Has anyone else experienced this problem? Am considering trading vehicle for this problem as warranty will soon expire. I am not mechanical and would appreciate any advice. Thanks

tomtazz · April 2004

I am a current allroad owner. My lease ends in November of 2004. I am presently researching my choices, i.e. keep the car or get something else. Where did you get the info on the demise of the allroad? What's the replacement going to be? I was considering getting a new one when my lease is up but I don't want to get a car which is going to be discontinued. By the way I have not had any problems with my tiptronic. The car moves when I want it to and as fast as I want it to. Of course there is some turbo lag but not any more than I see on other turbo charged cars.

markcincinnati · April 2004

Your dealer should have the information regarding ordering a new 2005 allroad -- the last year of this fine car. There will be an A7 or a so called Pike's Peak -- but that will likely skip one model year, but in the meantime, there will be something that in photographs looks for the world like a mini allroad, and that is an A3 avant.

The last allroad will be made in May 2005. I would have no problem buying one even then as parts and service will extend for an absolute minimum of 4 years and more likely much longer.

This information was directly from my Audi dealer here in Cincinnati.

tomtazz · April 2004

Thanks for the reply. You seem to know a thing or two about the chipping process for the 1.8T engine. Can the 2.7T be chipped and, if so, what is the process and the benefits, particularly for increased mileage. I ask this becuse I have considered getting another allroad when my current lease is up but I don't like the 17 mpg average I get. Thanks again, your wealth of knowledge is impressive.

markcincinnati · April 2004

At the risk of having someone chew me out, I will say that I can only think of one thing that will happen, with respect to gas milage, with a chip -- IT WILL DECREASE.

Technically, I guess there could be an argument that it COULD improve, since the theory is that the car is made to breath better -- volumetric efficiency (VE) goes UP.

However, with that improvement in VE, is the reality that the car, due to an impressive, not subtle improvement in torque and a small improvement in HP, will use MORE fuel because, just like the rat that learns to press the lever to get a reward, well, you will press the accelerator and get that extra whoooooooooooshhhh!!! from the turbo that has been told to "blow more, blow longer, and blow more fuel more quickly" into the combustion chamber -- the torque improvements with MILD MILDER MILDEST chips is easily 25%.

I have chipped one 1.8T Audi TT (180HP to 195HP and over 40% improvement in torque and that was from a "stage one" a.k.a. mild, chip)-- it is almost impossible to resist "getting into the throttle" -- and I don't care who you are and how you drive, when you do this you will suck more fuel + air into the engine. Of course, most who chip are looking for the extra "horsepressure" as it is sometimes called -- and this horsepressure (power+torque) is what the chip is best known for.

Improvements in economy? Try:

1. Stick shift
2. Inflate tires to maximum rating
3. Use 0 - 40W pure synthetic oil
4. Upshift as soon as possible when driving your stick shift
5. Run the A/C minimally
6. Take routes that permit steady state speeds
7. Find routes that are as flat as possible
8. Don't carry any excess weight
9. Find the fuel that seems to "last the longest" and be faithful to it
10. Use the premium platinum 4 tip spark plugs that are designed for your car
11. Within the computer systems limits, have the technician adjust your Engine Management System for the leanest setting withing the operational parameters.
12. Coast a lot
13. Drive down hill, whenever possible
14. Use a freer flowing air-filter that doesn't violate the warranty
15. Don't "warm up" the engine for more than 30 seconds EVER

Chip = more "fun" more performance more guts in the engine room.

Chip = lower gas milage, probably.

Sorry.

KCRam · May 2004

All season tires are at best a compromise. The M+S rating is just a minimum specification; you're certainly not going to go mudding down some back road with them. If you get deep snow where you are, you should always invest in a set of winter footwear that you can swap out when the time comes. Be sure to check the various tire discussions in our Maintenance and Repair Board.

kcram
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bmwccc · May 2004

Hey Mark, I have enjoyed reading your comments going back several months. I am very impressed with the amount of info. and knowledge you kindly dispense to this forum.

With that being said, I am considering buying an allroad myself in the 4th qtr. of 2004. Sounds like there is going to be a new version of the Allroad coming out called the A7 / Pike's Peak? When do you suspect this to come out? What types of differences will that possible have?

Also, with the 2005 model coming up, are they going to offer the 6spd Tip for the allroad like they are changing over to in the A6 3.2?

Why do you think are they eliminating the Turbo in the 2004 A6 and switching to only the 3.2 V6 and 4.2 V8 for the 2005 models?

Does the 4.2 eliminate the problems associated with lag from " off the line" as mentioned multiple times in previous posts? If so, why is that?

I want to get the 2005 year model but am hesitant with a new complete change coming out for a Pike's Peak version etc.

Any info you could provide would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Chris

demars581 · June 2004

My Dad was originally looking at the A6 sedan and the Lexus RX330 to replace his 2001 Mercedes ML320. However, he got a price on the Allroad for only $500/month, nothing down on a brand new 2004. The lease is for 39 months and 15,000 miles per year. I think it is a great deal considering the car's MSRP, which is around $45-46K. What does everyone else think of this price?

The RX330 lease was $625/mon, nothing down, 39 months, 15K per year, with an MSRP of $41,900.

markcincinnati · June 2004

The current allroad will soldier on, basically as is through May 2005 production. There is no evidence of any technology (drive train) switchover -- no 6spd tip, but there will continue to be a stick shift, which is the best way to get this car.

The new Pikes Peak, he said as if he knew for sure, apparently will be the legitimate child of the marriage between Porsche's Cayenne and VW's Touareg. More upscale (and higher bucks, methinks) than the Vee Dub and less cache and cost than the Porsche. Base price over $50K would seem to make sense, big HP and a couple of Audi centric changes.

Info pertaining to this vehicle is all over the web, just google it or dogpile it and you will see what all the fuss is about.

One rumor says 500HP, full glass roof and high zoot everything with more electronic gizmos than St. Josheph's has aspirin.

I, for one, would be interested in a smaller vehicle that would take off where the allroad began. Of course, this may simply be called an A6 Avant with the air suspension option -- time, about 18 months, will tell.

I cannot give any higher recommendation to anyone about a car than to recommend an allroad. However, having said that, most people have no concept of what one of them can do (6 spd manual version ONLY or V8 equipped ONLY). The allroad is so close to an SUV in capability, but not all the way mind you, that it should have been THE hot car, considering that most folks never take their SUV's to Jeep Jamborees or anything approaching what they are capable of doing.

The allroad is good to great on ALL roads.

But, having said that, it is not for everyone. You have one year to buy a new allroad -- and it will look just like the current generation. For some that is good, for others that is not what they want.

boomsama · June 2004

The driver information screen between the two dials was a bit annoying as well. It gave me a bit too much information when I was driving and it was a bit hard to ignore. It just added to the reasons why i couldnt bring myself to buy the Allroad. Service wasn't good either.
I would, however, try to look past these. The car is great when its not moving, but the drive/ride was a bit dissapointing.

rennmann911 · July 2004

I have been told that there are quite a few things that the dealer's computer is able to do to change the car (eg. keyless remote can roll up and down windows and sunroof). Does anyone have a list of items that can be done? My local dealer has said that they can not divulge such info as AudiUSA is not allowing them to change any programs for legal reasons. Also, as far as chips for the 2,7T tip...what is the best one out there for reliability and performance? I have looked at both the APR and Hoppen motorsports chips so far.

africa95 · August 2004

Did anybody look into getting HP output of an allroad 4.2 up to the level of S6 or S8, since its the same engine ? Everything after the engine most probably is different but same engine should be able to deliver 360 hp as on the S models. Logically should be just a different chip, but does anybody know of other complications to the allroad 4,2 if a chip from S model is installed ?

markcincinnati · August 2004

A "better" and less expensive solution to the tip chip and/or the engine chip is to go with the 6spd manual. If you must have an auto, consider, instead the 4.2 -- the 2.7T with the 6spd manual may convince you that you do not need a chip after all. Moreover, the 6spd 2.7T is as quick as the more pricey 4.2 with tiptronic.

I have personally used Hoppen chips (in a TT) -- great company to work with.

======

With respect to the 4.2 getting to 360HP, well, I can assure you that it is far more than an engine management chip. Moreover, the HP that is probably "doable" is more like +20 with a slight bump in torque.

The more potent versions of the 4.2 usually get there via "breathing" -- you can get part way there with a new exhaust system, air cleaner, engine management chip and perhaps the tiptronic chip (which will NOT alter the HP and torque, but may provide a sportier transmission).

The non-turbo versions are actually quite expensive to make produce more HP + torque. I'd probably just go with the exhaust system changeover for about +10 HP gain and be done with it.

The 2.7T with the 6spd manual can be transformed into a very hot car indeed with sport by-pass valves, a Direct Port Program (a non-chip, chip) upgrade, a new exhaust system and HP air filter. Add a set of front and rear "H-sport" anti-sway bars, have the dealer program the air susupension for -12mm lowering at the lowest level and add 18" wheels with 245 x 45 x 18" UHP or Max performance tires, a "short shifter" and some higher performance brake pads (or go all the way with new rotors and pads) and you will have "an S6-like" vehicle. For a fraction of the cost.

gosh4 · August 2004

I was qouted $590 for the premier purchase of a 2004 All Road

voxvc · September 2004

It's been pretty quiet on this board, but if anyone is online this Labor Day weekend, I'd appreciate thoughts on three questions:

(1)What do people feel about the Allroad in Alpaca vs Atlas Gray? I was set on the gray, but the dealer is offering a better price on the Alpaca. Anyone seen both dirty?

(2) I've negotiated a lease on an '05 Allroad 2.7T w/ Premium, Bose/XM, Cold Weather, and Rear Airbags for $499/mo on 42 mos., 15k miles/yr and $3k down payment (wholesale trade-in per Edmund's for my '95 A6 Avant w/ 135k miles), plus security and acquisition. Should I be able to do much better?

(3) At the same price, would people choose a comparably equipped Allroad or Taureg and why?

Thanks in advance for any and all opinions!

cheers.

w210 · September 2004

I considered a Touareg but picked the allroad at the end.

I find the allroad actually has more leg room and trunk space than the Touareg. The VW is heavy, looks big on the outside but offer little usable space for passengers.

The Touareg is slow! Even the more expensive V8 has about the same acceleration as a 2.7T. While the VW has very nice fit and finish, I have heard lots of reliability issues. I think Audi has sorted out most of the allroad quirks except the tiptronic which takes some getting used to.

Better deals (both discount and money factor) to lease the allroad. Color wise, I think both look nice. Some may prefer the beige leather better matching the wood trim. We went for silver exterior and black interior for absolute ease of maintenance. We're also in for a long lease, picked it up last April for a 48 month.

markcincinnati · September 2004

Go with the color you like. One thing, with the Alpaca, you will have a more unique color -- no hidden meaning from me. I think I would opt for the full paint option (after the sale). I did that and it transforms the allroad into a more elegant looking vehicle ($1600).

Hopefully you are getting this thing with the stick, for if not, I would urge you to reconsider and go with the V8 allroad -- the boards (all over the internet) are NOT very complimentary about the allroad 2.7T with the tip.

The allroad has 100% warranty and maintenance -- the Touareg will, over the first $30,000 miles require more than $1,500 in "routine" maintenance -- and you MUST do it or BYE BYE warranty.

The allroad will ride and handle better, it will also get better gas milage. IT CAN GO ON ALL roads, but it is only marginally suited to offroad, although it should be noted that in fully extended position the air suspension ride height is the same as a Jeep Grand.

And, the performance of the allroad is as a sports sedan -- good as the Touareg is, it can't perform the same.

Roomier back seat in the allroad.

Now, all of this damning with faint praise of the Touareg is NOT meant to suggest that it may not be the better choice after all.

What do you plan to use this vehicle to carry or where do you plan to take it, how about towing and, and and several other "features" that the Audi -- which is a crossover CAR -- does not have.

I'd go for the Audi, but that is not a fair statement -- I am so biased that it just ain't funny.

Yet, biases and all, I can see the attraction of the VW and would not want you to think that there are conditions and circumstances (that are YOURS) that would argue long and loud against the allroad.

The allroad is, IMHO, for 94% of the SUV crowd, a "better" alternative. Some people think of it as a station wagon -- and for some THAT is a big turn OFF.

I look at it as a sporting "neither nor" -- for it is neither an suv nor a wagon.

"We report, you decide. . ."

Final thought -- they are both good vehicles.

The fact that they, in your mind, are competitors is -- to me -- interesting. I would not find them even close to each other in terms of their capabilities. But, I like apples and oranges about equally well, too.

Audi allroad

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