Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Full Sized Vans
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
How difficult is it to remove the rearmost bench seat?
We have a 1990 Dodge B150 (109" wheelbase, 187" long), the smallest FSV to be had. What is the steering/handling like on a longer FSV like yours?
I've not been able to test drive many passenger vans because dealers don't keep them in stock, just conversion vans (I know that they are basically the same van - one starts as a cargo van and the other is factory finished - but still, I'd like to test the passenger versions). In fact, I've only driven one - a used 1995 Dodge 2500 (the next size bigger than mine, and, in fact, the size I'm looking for). However, I know that the Dodge van was redesigned in '98, so driving a '95 is not very helpful in making a decision.
The 2 conversion vans I drove were identical Fords with horrible after market driver's seats. It was so soft and cushiony my neck hurt and with no side support so that when I turned corners, my body would go in the opposite direction. I'm sure this affected my perception of the vans' handling. The reason we drove 2 is that the first one had a strong continuous vibration that came through the floor and the seats. The second van had messed up air conditioning - cold air in the front, warm air in the back. Driving two brand new Ford vans, each with a different problem, pretty much made me decide not to get a Ford.
As far as driving a Chevy/GMC, the dealership we went to had a conversion, but the battery was completely dead because someone left the tv on all day. It wouldn't even take a jump it was so dead. So, no test drive. Guess we'll have to try again some other day. Anyway, the Express/Savana is in the size range we're looking for.
Are there any real differences between the Express and the Savana?
I've read (here and elsewhere) that Fords and GMs have body on frame construction, and that Dodges have unibody construction. What does "unibody" mean, anyway?
How much power does your van have? Does it have good pick-up (acceleration), especially on hills?
Thanks in advance to anyone with helpful answers.
> How difficult is it to remove the rearmost
> bench seat?
Well, first you need to disconnect the shoulder belt by inserting something into a little hole in the buckle to release it (my husband always has a bobby pin handy ;-)). Then, in the floor underneath the seat there are these two carpet flaps; lift them up to reveal the locking pins. The locking pins are rotated and pulled out to release the seat (the seat has places to keep the locking pins when not in use). Then the seat needs to be muscled out the back of the van. The rearmost one is the hardest because it's full-width. We found out the hard way that if you're not careful, you risk ripping the padding underneath the carpet, or scratching the plastic trim on the floor just in front of the rear doors. My husband says it isn't too difficult (he can do it single-handedly) - but let me put it this way: a Honda Odyssey-type "magic seat" would certainly be welcome. The seat makes a lovely sofa for our garage, though... if we take 'em *all* out they make a nice seating arrangement - all it needs is a coffee table. :-)
> We have a 1990 Dodge B150 (109" wheelbase, 187"
> long), the smallest FSV to be had.
Oh, that must be the cute stubby-looking one. ;-)
> What is the steering/handling like on a longer
> FSV like yours?
We have the "short" (Ha!) wheelbase version - 135". The front end handles amazingly easily, thanks to the fairly tight turning radius and the very shortness of the vehicle's nose - really swings around nicely. What takes a little practice is keeping the *back* end from being dragged over curbs on right turns (or, G-d forbid, hitting signposts or telephone poles) - just start your turn a bit later than you might expect in most other vehicles, and keep an eye on your right side mirror. Your Dodge van has a similarly stubby front end, so you should be used to that, but watch that back end!
> I've not been able to test drive many passenger
> vans because dealers don't keep them in stock,
Yup - been there, done that...
> just conversion vans (I know that they are
> basically the same van - one starts as a cargo
> van and the other is factory finished - but
> still, I'd like to test the passenger
>versions).
Well, guess what? We ordered our van without ever even test-driving one. Are we brave or what? ;-)
> In fact, I've only driven one - a used 1995
> Dodge 2500 (the next size bigger than mine,
> and, in fact, the size I'm looking for).
> However, I know that the Dodge van was
> redesigned in '98,
Yes, but to my knowledge it was not nearly as extensive a redesign as Ford did in '92 and GM did in '96 - especially GM.
> As far as driving a Chevy/GMC, the dealership
> we went to had a conversion, but the battery
> was completely dead So, no test drive.
Bummer. :-(
> Anyway, the Express/Savana is in the size range
> we're looking for.
So you're not interested in the long-wheelbase version. That thing's HUGE!!! Study the vans you see on the road and notice how GM is the only make that puts longer *wheelbases* on its longer vans. The others leave the wheelbase the same, but extend the overhang in the back - it looks especially exaggerated on the longest Dodge (isn't Dodge the only one with 3 lengths?)
> Are there any real differences between the
> Express and the Savana?
Nope, they both come off of the same Wentzville, Missouri, assembly line. Only the grilles are different. There are also slight price differences (for some reason GMC commands the higher price), and the option packages are slightly different (for example, I think the 1SD package on the Chevy includes the leather-wrapped steering wheel, while on the GMC it doesn't). Check Edmunds, etc. to make sure.
> I've read (here and elsewhere) that Fords and
> GMs have body on frame construction, and that
> Dodges have unibody construction.
That's correct. The pre-96 GMs were unibody, but GM switched to body-on-frame with the redesign.
> What does "unibody" mean, anyway?
Not sure, but it seems to be de rigeur in cars nowadays. Body-on-frame is supposed to make trucks more stiff and rugged, and therefore able to handle heavier loads.
> How much power does your van have? Does it
> have good pick-up (acceleration), especially
> on hills?
Yes, our 5.7L engine seems to have plenty of power. We haven't driven it fully loaded yet, but we're taking it cross-country in August, with 8 people (2 adults & 6 kids) and lotsa stuff. Shall we stop and visit you in CO (it's right on our way) and let you take it for a test drive? (I took a peek at your profile.) :-)
> would be highly desirable.
Sorry for being such a wet blanket, but I disagree.
Let's face it: hardly anybody buys these vans, *especially* the factory-finished passenger ones, anymore. And within *this* miniscule segment, most of these are sold for airport shuttle services, church/senior use, and the like - so there's little demand for more than spartanly-equipped vans.
Large families (the definition of which has been shrinking considerably over the years) are becoming increasingly rare. Minivans and SUVs have provided practical and "cool" (in respective order) alternatives to FSVs ever since the first Caravans and Voyagers rolled off the assembly line in '84, and leather-clad 'Speditions and 'Burbans (and 'Gators and Ethcalades) became all the rage in the early-to-mid 90's.
Follow the money. What's next? The Ford Excursion: its outside dimensions rival those of FSVs, but it's an SUV so it's cool. Still, it only seats 9 people, so those of us with *really* big families still have to be satisified with having only one side door, killer removable-bench (not "magic") seats, and only 1 cupholder for every 6 passengers. What's that you say? You want more amenities? Get a conversion van! Whaddya mean conversion vans only seat 7 people? Sorry...
But, you wanna know something? Coolness has a price. We FSV-ers aren't stupid: don't tell the automakers, but we can buy *TWO* FSVs for the price of one fancy-schmancy SUV (and carry 3x as many people). When the manufacturers decide to create that ULTIMATE HYBRID to which I referred in an earlier post (i.e. dress up an FSV the way they dress up minivans and SUVs), then our wallets are in trouble. ;-)
If you look there, it is in a thread on FSVs on page 3 as of Sat. afternoon, probably will be on page 4 by tonight. Basically, the frame is welded, not bolted, to the body. It is supposed to be lighter, stiffer, cheaper, and noisier.
There are two basic theories to automotive chassis design. Two of the most common names for them are 'perimeter frame' and 'unibody'.
A perimeter frame is a heavy, sturdy frame that is separate from the body. The body is made separately and attatched to the frame, whether by welding or bolts.
A unibody (or unit-body or 'monocoque') is a structure whose body *is* the frame; that is, the body panels are fully stressed, load-bearing members. There is no separate frame to support the body. Even the engine and the stationary glass (not windows that open and close) are stressed members.
Actually, there usually is a subframe to support the engine and trans, and the I believe that the Mercedes MB 320 actually consists of a unibody with a complete, separate perimeter frame; total redundancy. The purpose, presumeably, is to provide massive strength.
The unibody is not inherently noisier or cheaper. It depends on how the vehicle's built. It was, as you say, introduced to save weight while providing improved rigidity. It was also discovered to absorb damage in the event of a collision, sacrificing sheet metal, but (depending on the impact) often offering superior protection to the occupants.
Perimeter frame vehicles, on the other hand, often look better after a crash, but the occupants may not.
midasgold, I reread some of the previous posts here and saw some comments/questions concerning noise in the Savana. How noisy is yours?
General question: My '90 Dodge B150 has a sliding side door, but I am considering dual doors in my new van. I am also considering dual rear doors instead of the single door I have now.
Anybody have an opinion?
We checked out a new Dodge Ram 3500 on a dealer's lot a couple of weeks ago (didn't test drive it because we're not even considering getting a van that big), and the sliding side door was very lightweight. It felt flimsy and cheap. My van's side door is hefty and feels solid. What are the sliding doors on other makes/models like?
A couple of months ago when I had the rear door open to load the stroller, a strong wind hit it so hard that the metal bar that keeps the door from opening too wide snapped. The door, which used to open 90 degrees, now opens 180 degrees. Someday, maybe I'll get it fixed...
> where does the extra length on the Savana come
> from? Is it partially or completely in the
> front (which I doubt, since you said it has a
> stubby front end),
I think that, before the Dodge's most recent redesign, its nose was even shorter than the (current) GM's (the Ford has the most prominent snout of the 3, IMHO). But I recall reading that Dodge extended the engine forward a bit to give it more interior room (esp. legroom for the driver and front passenger). Since I haven't been inside a Dodge, I have no basis for comparison with our Savana.
> or is there more interior space (likely)?
If I'm not mistaken, GM has the most interior space of the three.
> Are the bench seats in the Savana farther apart
> than the Ram,
I dunno, but I'll be happy to go out and measure it if you'd like...
> or is there more cargo space in back? When
> your third bench is in, is there any room
> behind it, or is it right up against the back
> door (as in the Ram)?
There's about 2 feet of interior length remaining behind the 4th-row bench - plenty of room for stuff, we've discovered. If you get an 8-passenger (or get a 12 and take out the last bench to make it 8), you'll have loads of space back there. (In the extended-length 15-passenger van, the 5th-row bench *does* sit right up against the back door - so an additional 20 in. in exterior length doesn't add 24 in. to the interior... maybe you can use that to calculate how far apart the benches are; maybe not. Check out Chevy's and GMC's websites and you'll see what I mean.)
> Do you normally drive it as a 12 seater,
> presumably to separate the kids, or as an 8
> seater?
We leave all the seats in. We've been debating whether or not to take out the last bench to make more cargo room for our x-country trip, and we've decided to leave it in. That way, the kids can sit 2 per row (at opposite sides) and not be in one-another's faces. The vacant center spaces in the seats will hold whatever stuff remains after we pack the rear cargo area to the gills - pillows and blankets and soft stuff like that should be perfect there.
> SUVs do have some safety advantages over FSVs,
> namely more headrests
The benches in the GM vans *had* headrests in '97, but they were removed starting in '98. Can't figure out why - probably to save production cost or to increase visibility through the rear windows. I wish they'd left them and allowed *us* the option of removing them.
> and shoulder belts,
You mean center shoulder belts in the bench seats? I didn't know SUVs had that. Our Savana's bench seats have shoulder belts in the outside positions (2 per bench, that is).
> midasgold, I reread some of the previous posts
> here and saw some comments/questions concerning
> noise in the Savana. How noisy is yours?
Doesn't bother us at all - we can hear the stereo fine. Heck it *is* a truck, after all - but, really, it's plenty quiet for our needs. Sometimes the compressor fan comes on when we first start the engine - it's pretty loud! But it shuts off after just a few minutes, so it's really no big deal. The owner's manual says that that occurrence is normal.
> General question: My '90 Dodge B150 has a
> sliding side door, but I am considering dual
> doors in my new van.
Besides the reasons I mentioned above for getting a slider, there's one more thing that sort of tipped the scales for us. When the redesign of the GM van first came out, a big deal was made out of pointing out that the rear doors have hidden hinges, giving it a clean look and protecting the hinges from rust, presumably. Meanwhile, protruding hinges on the swing-out side doors continue to be used! The slider doesn't have protruding hinges (but it does have a big black track in the side, if that bothers you). Mini-vans tend to have a hidden track or at least have the track the same color as the van; however, in the GMC Savana/Chevy Express, the track is always black.
> I am also considering dual rear doors instead
> of the single door I have now. Anybody have an
> opinion?
That single rear door is unique to Dodge, which makes it pretty cool, I think. But I guess it's kinda like deciding between a side x side refrigerator vs. a top/bottom freezer model - you need to be sure there's enough space for the door(s) to swing out. One *major* advantage to Dodge's single door is rear visibility - it eliminates that center pillar.
> We checked out a new Dodge Ram 3500 and
> the sliding side door was very lightweight. It
> felt flimsy and cheap. My van's side door is
> hefty and feels solid. What are the sliding
> doors on other makes/models like?
Ours seems solid enough.
> The door, which used to open 90 degrees, now
> opens 180 degrees. Someday, maybe I'll get it
> fixed...
The GM's rear doors are *designed* to open 180 degrees - and they do! :-)
By "go anywhere" I meant walking, not driving. Whether in a parking lot, a campsite, in the pits at a race, or whatever, those open doors always seem to be in the way (even though they can be "released" to open wider).
Please e-mail me if you have one for sale at
Goldspring@aol.com
How do I learn about the various vans out there in my area (Western Mass) w/o looking like a simpleton?? I've ruled out Dodge because of the shorter bed over GM or Ford. I like my leg room!
I drive a '97 Ford/Coachmen with the 4.6L V8. Commuting is 20 miles each way with a mix of x-way and surface streets. Warm weather mpg is about 15.5 to 16.1. It drops about 1 mpg in cold weather months. (Detroit area)
Jerry
I have a 1990 Dodge Ram B150 passenger van with seating for 8 (2 bench seats), which is the equivalent of today's 1500. The air conditioning hardly reaches the rearmost bench seat.
thanks for the information regarding the ram 1500 a/c.
Yes you are now into the 2000 model year. You didn't state if you are looking into a new or used. Any of the online car suppliers should be able to locate one for you, 99 or other.
I have a 99 Club Wagon (loaded) and am very happy with it. Its worked out much better than pickup trucks I've had in the past. There is a ton of room in it.
If you do decide to order one I would recommend going with the 5.4L engine. These vehicles are pretty heavy and you'll want as much get up and go as you can get.
Richmond Ford had a couple '99 E-150 Chateau's 2 weeks ago. One had a 5.4L engine, don't know about the other.
www.fordnews.com has 2000 Econoline info & MSRP princing. Not much change from '99
I'm having a problem tracking down a vehicle using the usual internet sources and wondered if it could be because the 99 models are being sold out in anticipation of 2000 version. Does anyone know if the 2000 models will differ much from the 99?
Also, when exactly will the 2000 models be in dealers hands?
Anyone had any experience of using one of these models in Europe?
I would be grateful for any thoughts
Thanks
What is a 'typical' good discount on a used car?
guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference
You'll probably have better luck in one of the many conferences devoted to Dodge mini's, or mini's in general. The subject of this conference is full-size vans.
Also to somebody else back there whose name I forget:
If you want a 15-passenger, in my opinion, Chev/GMC has that category completely sewn up. To my knowledge they are the only manufacturer who makes a dedicated chassis for that size vehicle. The other manufacturers splice longitudinal members into their shorter chassis to lengthen them, producing a much weaker, but heavier frame.
If anybody wants to dispute this, I'm interested in hearing about it, but I've heard this from several sources that I consider credible.
transportation pod as well as for weekends at the dog shows. In
starting my investigations, I leaned toward the Ford Econoline cargo
van 250, since I'm a long time Bronco owner. However, this has turned
into a nightmare of confusion, and I wonder if Ford or the dealers even
WANT to sell these things!! Maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people
or asking the wrong things, but this is really weird.
I realize that these vans need "converting" before they're set up the
way people want, but it seems to me that dealers won't make the effort
to bring this all together for the customer. The particular van I
wanted, I was told, was unavailable - popular model particularly for
commercial purposes, late in model year, etc. But then they said they
could order one but it would have to go to a "van pool." Then they said
that I couldn't have the various option packages that are listed
because these are now somehow not available. However, I COULD order a
one-ton van, which would give me more options (I don't want the one-ton)
After getting totally confused, the sales guy finally tells me that
almost all of the vans they get in are for commercial users...in spite
of the fact that I see lots of "converted" Econolines on the road...and
he doesn't think he can help me...
Please help! I just want to buy a damn van, get it finished inside so
it looks nice and is comfy without going nuts over it...who do I talk
to?? Is a regular dealer the wrong place to go? Thanks!
Express passenger van. In the 2000 Dealer Ordering Guide, the document from which he orders vehicles, there is a section on new features-exterior. Here is lists 3 new colors and then the following: "Light Autumnwood Striping - Adds a Touch of Class (available with LS trim)".
No one at the dealership, the zone manager, GM customer service and the dozen or so other numbers to which I was referred knows what this is or how to order it. It has no order code. I am now checking at the Chev. manufacturing plant in Missouri and they are researching it. Does anyone out there KNOW what this is???? Thanks
Jerry
I had experience the same don't know don't care from many of the dealers. My local small town dealer will cry the blues when I take it in for the first service. I called him 4 times this year, and received no replies.
So far Lone Star Ford in Houston has been the best dealer, they have a great web page and also their sale paper listings on their site.
They did hate it when I pulled out the Blue book values for my trade in Chateau Van. We had about 4 hours of negotiations. We baited and switched to get our price. After 3.5 hours they would not meet our price so we said ok lets do the deal on the cheaper van. They were not ready for another battle. They came back with $800 more off the price. We had only been wanting $500 but as they say take what you can get.
PS Got + 20 mph on the first fill up.
Any thoughts or experience with this situation..?
Thanks, John
Anyone else have something like this happen to them? Any other problems? I'd like to know.
Since you have had the alignment checked, for the moment we will assume it's correct. The first thing I would do is swap the front tires left to right and right to left. If the pulling changes to the other direction, you know it's a tire problem and you'll have to go fight with your tire dealer.(This is at least the second thing the dealer should have tried).
If that doesn't make any change go to the service manage and ask where they take their VIP or problem vans and trucks that has an expert alignment mechanic. The problem is most anyone can align a vehicle to factory spec with little or no training (which is what you are usually getting) but finding an expert in a dealership is rare.
A very important point to remember is that the steering gear can cause a pulling problem, which can be severe, if the internal ports are misaligned. The steering fluid is always pushing it to one side no mater what you do and the tires won't have abnormal wear because you're fighting the power steering gear. Tell the service manager you want this checked and they will be happy to send you to an alignment expert because the only way to check power steering gear alignment is to completely disassemble it and check everything with a micrometer. Then they have to re-shim the gear, put it completely back together, and see if it made any change. Then repeat as necessary. Most install a new gear rather than spend the time required. This can be checked by jacking the front of the van where the tires are off the ground. turn the steering wheel until the tires are straight, start the motor for a few minutes and shut it off. If the tires remain straight, the steering gear is not the problem. If the tires turn, start thinking steering gear.
Now go ask your service manager why they didn't do these tests to start with other than his department just didn't care more about fixing the problem than getting it back out the door.
Finally, Get the Sales manager in the corner in front of a room full of potential customers and discuss in a calm voice but in volumes how poor his service is on a brand new vehicle.
As to the bit about "chaining it down too tightly on the truck", I agree that that is one of the sorriest excuses I've ever heard. If it was really chained down tight enough that it has not yet recovered, it never will. Like you could possibly compress a spring so much that it would take a month to get back to its full length. Puh-leaze!
tia
Recently, we've noticed a high-pitched squealing/whistling noise during low-speed turns. Our dealer examined it, and was unable to locate the source of the sound other than to say it "sounds like it has to do with the power steering hoses." Their fix? They've ordered a whole new steering box to replace the original one, for which we are currently waiting for the parts to arrive.
Now your post has me concerned. You wrote: "A very important point to remember is that the steering gear can cause a pulling problem, which can be severe, if the internal ports are misaligned." Well, as I've stated, we don't have a pulling problem; our steering is flawless, except for this little noise. Now I'm afraid that if we let the dealer "mess around in there" and replace the steering box, we might run the risk of ending up with poorer steering performance than we had with the factory steering gear! You know: "If it ain't broke..."
Please tell me if I'm worrying needlessly, or if I should cancel the gearbox replacement and live with the noise.
Thanks!
Ariel -
The steering wheel can be re-set to its original position or any other. It's just a matter of loosening it, moving it to the right place and retightening it.
Back in the good old days, a good mechanic would re-center the steering wheel as a matter of course, before releasing the car to the customer. Nowadays most mechanics figure any steering wheel position is is as good as any other.
thanx, lynn
For light use, I think the 150 should work fine.
Frame (slightly thicker)
brakes
suspension
Who can help me out?
Joop
guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference