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Full Sized Vans

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Comments

  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    midasgold,

    How difficult is it to remove the rearmost bench seat?

    We have a 1990 Dodge B150 (109" wheelbase, 187" long), the smallest FSV to be had. What is the steering/handling like on a longer FSV like yours?
    I've not been able to test drive many passenger vans because dealers don't keep them in stock, just conversion vans (I know that they are basically the same van - one starts as a cargo van and the other is factory finished - but still, I'd like to test the passenger versions). In fact, I've only driven one - a used 1995 Dodge 2500 (the next size bigger than mine, and, in fact, the size I'm looking for). However, I know that the Dodge van was redesigned in '98, so driving a '95 is not very helpful in making a decision.

    The 2 conversion vans I drove were identical Fords with horrible after market driver's seats. It was so soft and cushiony my neck hurt and with no side support so that when I turned corners, my body would go in the opposite direction. I'm sure this affected my perception of the vans' handling. The reason we drove 2 is that the first one had a strong continuous vibration that came through the floor and the seats. The second van had messed up air conditioning - cold air in the front, warm air in the back. Driving two brand new Ford vans, each with a different problem, pretty much made me decide not to get a Ford.

    As far as driving a Chevy/GMC, the dealership we went to had a conversion, but the battery was completely dead because someone left the tv on all day. It wouldn't even take a jump it was so dead. So, no test drive. Guess we'll have to try again some other day. Anyway, the Express/Savana is in the size range we're looking for.

    Are there any real differences between the Express and the Savana?

    I've read (here and elsewhere) that Fords and GMs have body on frame construction, and that Dodges have unibody construction. What does "unibody" mean, anyway?

    How much power does your van have? Does it have good pick-up (acceleration), especially on hills?

    Thanks in advance to anyone with helpful answers.
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    (Is that "ariel" as in "lion of G-d?") ;-)

    > How difficult is it to remove the rearmost
    > bench seat?

    Well, first you need to disconnect the shoulder belt by inserting something into a little hole in the buckle to release it (my husband always has a bobby pin handy ;-)). Then, in the floor underneath the seat there are these two carpet flaps; lift them up to reveal the locking pins. The locking pins are rotated and pulled out to release the seat (the seat has places to keep the locking pins when not in use). Then the seat needs to be muscled out the back of the van. The rearmost one is the hardest because it's full-width. We found out the hard way that if you're not careful, you risk ripping the padding underneath the carpet, or scratching the plastic trim on the floor just in front of the rear doors. My husband says it isn't too difficult (he can do it single-handedly) - but let me put it this way: a Honda Odyssey-type "magic seat" would certainly be welcome. The seat makes a lovely sofa for our garage, though... if we take 'em *all* out they make a nice seating arrangement - all it needs is a coffee table. :-)

    > We have a 1990 Dodge B150 (109" wheelbase, 187"
    > long), the smallest FSV to be had.

    Oh, that must be the cute stubby-looking one. ;-)

    > What is the steering/handling like on a longer
    > FSV like yours?

    We have the "short" (Ha!) wheelbase version - 135". The front end handles amazingly easily, thanks to the fairly tight turning radius and the very shortness of the vehicle's nose - really swings around nicely. What takes a little practice is keeping the *back* end from being dragged over curbs on right turns (or, G-d forbid, hitting signposts or telephone poles) - just start your turn a bit later than you might expect in most other vehicles, and keep an eye on your right side mirror. Your Dodge van has a similarly stubby front end, so you should be used to that, but watch that back end!

    > I've not been able to test drive many passenger
    > vans because dealers don't keep them in stock,

    Yup - been there, done that...

    > just conversion vans (I know that they are
    > basically the same van - one starts as a cargo
    > van and the other is factory finished - but
    > still, I'd like to test the passenger
    >versions).

    Well, guess what? We ordered our van without ever even test-driving one. Are we brave or what? ;-)

    > In fact, I've only driven one - a used 1995
    > Dodge 2500 (the next size bigger than mine,
    > and, in fact, the size I'm looking for).
    > However, I know that the Dodge van was
    > redesigned in '98,

    Yes, but to my knowledge it was not nearly as extensive a redesign as Ford did in '92 and GM did in '96 - especially GM.

    > As far as driving a Chevy/GMC, the dealership
    > we went to had a conversion, but the battery
    > was completely dead So, no test drive.

    Bummer. :-(

    > Anyway, the Express/Savana is in the size range
    > we're looking for.

    So you're not interested in the long-wheelbase version. That thing's HUGE!!! Study the vans you see on the road and notice how GM is the only make that puts longer *wheelbases* on its longer vans. The others leave the wheelbase the same, but extend the overhang in the back - it looks especially exaggerated on the longest Dodge (isn't Dodge the only one with 3 lengths?)

    > Are there any real differences between the
    > Express and the Savana?

    Nope, they both come off of the same Wentzville, Missouri, assembly line. Only the grilles are different. There are also slight price differences (for some reason GMC commands the higher price), and the option packages are slightly different (for example, I think the 1SD package on the Chevy includes the leather-wrapped steering wheel, while on the GMC it doesn't). Check Edmunds, etc. to make sure.

    > I've read (here and elsewhere) that Fords and
    > GMs have body on frame construction, and that
    > Dodges have unibody construction.

    That's correct. The pre-96 GMs were unibody, but GM switched to body-on-frame with the redesign.

    > What does "unibody" mean, anyway?

    Not sure, but it seems to be de rigeur in cars nowadays. Body-on-frame is supposed to make trucks more stiff and rugged, and therefore able to handle heavier loads.

    > How much power does your van have? Does it
    > have good pick-up (acceleration), especially
    > on hills?

    Yes, our 5.7L engine seems to have plenty of power. We haven't driven it fully loaded yet, but we're taking it cross-country in August, with 8 people (2 adults & 6 kids) and lotsa stuff. Shall we stop and visit you in CO (it's right on our way) and let you take it for a test drive? (I took a peek at your profile.) :-)
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    > i still think a full size van with dual sliders
    > would be highly desirable.

    Sorry for being such a wet blanket, but I disagree.

    Let's face it: hardly anybody buys these vans, *especially* the factory-finished passenger ones, anymore. And within *this* miniscule segment, most of these are sold for airport shuttle services, church/senior use, and the like - so there's little demand for more than spartanly-equipped vans.

    Large families (the definition of which has been shrinking considerably over the years) are becoming increasingly rare. Minivans and SUVs have provided practical and "cool" (in respective order) alternatives to FSVs ever since the first Caravans and Voyagers rolled off the assembly line in '84, and leather-clad 'Speditions and 'Burbans (and 'Gators and Ethcalades) became all the rage in the early-to-mid 90's.

    Follow the money. What's next? The Ford Excursion: its outside dimensions rival those of FSVs, but it's an SUV so it's cool. Still, it only seats 9 people, so those of us with *really* big families still have to be satisified with having only one side door, killer removable-bench (not "magic") seats, and only 1 cupholder for every 6 passengers. What's that you say? You want more amenities? Get a conversion van! Whaddya mean conversion vans only seat 7 people? Sorry...

    But, you wanna know something? Coolness has a price. We FSV-ers aren't stupid: don't tell the automakers, but we can buy *TWO* FSVs for the price of one fancy-schmancy SUV (and carry 3x as many people). When the manufacturers decide to create that ULTIMATE HYBRID to which I referred in an earlier post (i.e. dress up an FSV the way they dress up minivans and SUVs), then our wallets are in trouble. ;-)
  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    BTW, SUVs do have some safety advantages over FSVs, namely more headrests and shoulder belts, and a lower center of gravity. Also, as midasgold mentioned, SUVs do have more cupholders and other amenities.
  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    I found out what unibody means: A post on Cartalk's Cafe Dartre bulletin board explained it.
    If you look there, it is in a thread on FSVs on page 3 as of Sat. afternoon, probably will be on page 4 by tonight. Basically, the frame is welded, not bolted, to the body. It is supposed to be lighter, stiffer, cheaper, and noisier.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    That's not quite right. I'm not surprised. What The Two Stooges don't know about cars could fill a 20 gig hard drive.

    There are two basic theories to automotive chassis design. Two of the most common names for them are 'perimeter frame' and 'unibody'.

    A perimeter frame is a heavy, sturdy frame that is separate from the body. The body is made separately and attatched to the frame, whether by welding or bolts.

    A unibody (or unit-body or 'monocoque') is a structure whose body *is* the frame; that is, the body panels are fully stressed, load-bearing members. There is no separate frame to support the body. Even the engine and the stationary glass (not windows that open and close) are stressed members.

    Actually, there usually is a subframe to support the engine and trans, and the I believe that the Mercedes MB 320 actually consists of a unibody with a complete, separate perimeter frame; total redundancy. The purpose, presumeably, is to provide massive strength.

    The unibody is not inherently noisier or cheaper. It depends on how the vehicle's built. It was, as you say, introduced to save weight while providing improved rigidity. It was also discovered to absorb damage in the event of a collision, sacrificing sheet metal, but (depending on the impact) often offering superior protection to the occupants.

    Perimeter frame vehicles, on the other hand, often look better after a crash, but the occupants may not.
  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    C13, thanks for the explanation. I should have mentioned that the poster (the person doing the posting - maybe it should be spelled postor?) on the Cartalk bulletin board was a civilian.

    midasgold, I reread some of the previous posts here and saw some comments/questions concerning noise in the Savana. How noisy is yours?

    General question: My '90 Dodge B150 has a sliding side door, but I am considering dual doors in my new van. I am also considering dual rear doors instead of the single door I have now.
    Anybody have an opinion?

    We checked out a new Dodge Ram 3500 on a dealer's lot a couple of weeks ago (didn't test drive it because we're not even considering getting a van that big), and the sliding side door was very lightweight. It felt flimsy and cheap. My van's side door is hefty and feels solid. What are the sliding doors on other makes/models like?

    A couple of months ago when I had the rear door open to load the stroller, a strong wind hit it so hard that the metal bar that keeps the door from opening too wide snapped. The door, which used to open 90 degrees, now opens 180 degrees. Someday, maybe I'll get it fixed...
  • rogerf2rogerf2 Member Posts: 5
    I have owned 3 vans (all Chevys) with both slider and swing out side doors. As far as I am concerned, the slider is the only way to go. The swing out doors are always in the way, whether you are in a campsite or a supermarket parking lot. Before you can go anywhere, at least when both hands are full, you have to shut one or both doors. The slider doesn't leave quite as big an opening, but that is a small price to pay.
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    Yes, you're certainly welcome to e-mail me - just click on my name above to get my profile, then click on my address there.

    > where does the extra length on the Savana come
    > from? Is it partially or completely in the
    > front (which I doubt, since you said it has a
    > stubby front end),

    I think that, before the Dodge's most recent redesign, its nose was even shorter than the (current) GM's (the Ford has the most prominent snout of the 3, IMHO). But I recall reading that Dodge extended the engine forward a bit to give it more interior room (esp. legroom for the driver and front passenger). Since I haven't been inside a Dodge, I have no basis for comparison with our Savana.

    > or is there more interior space (likely)?

    If I'm not mistaken, GM has the most interior space of the three.

    > Are the bench seats in the Savana farther apart
    > than the Ram,

    I dunno, but I'll be happy to go out and measure it if you'd like...

    > or is there more cargo space in back? When
    > your third bench is in, is there any room
    > behind it, or is it right up against the back
    > door (as in the Ram)?

    There's about 2 feet of interior length remaining behind the 4th-row bench - plenty of room for stuff, we've discovered. If you get an 8-passenger (or get a 12 and take out the last bench to make it 8), you'll have loads of space back there. (In the extended-length 15-passenger van, the 5th-row bench *does* sit right up against the back door - so an additional 20 in. in exterior length doesn't add 24 in. to the interior... maybe you can use that to calculate how far apart the benches are; maybe not. Check out Chevy's and GMC's websites and you'll see what I mean.)

    > Do you normally drive it as a 12 seater,
    > presumably to separate the kids, or as an 8
    > seater?

    We leave all the seats in. We've been debating whether or not to take out the last bench to make more cargo room for our x-country trip, and we've decided to leave it in. That way, the kids can sit 2 per row (at opposite sides) and not be in one-another's faces. The vacant center spaces in the seats will hold whatever stuff remains after we pack the rear cargo area to the gills - pillows and blankets and soft stuff like that should be perfect there.

    > SUVs do have some safety advantages over FSVs,
    > namely more headrests

    The benches in the GM vans *had* headrests in '97, but they were removed starting in '98. Can't figure out why - probably to save production cost or to increase visibility through the rear windows. I wish they'd left them and allowed *us* the option of removing them.

    > and shoulder belts,

    You mean center shoulder belts in the bench seats? I didn't know SUVs had that. Our Savana's bench seats have shoulder belts in the outside positions (2 per bench, that is).

    > midasgold, I reread some of the previous posts
    > here and saw some comments/questions concerning
    > noise in the Savana. How noisy is yours?

    Doesn't bother us at all - we can hear the stereo fine. Heck it *is* a truck, after all - but, really, it's plenty quiet for our needs. Sometimes the compressor fan comes on when we first start the engine - it's pretty loud! But it shuts off after just a few minutes, so it's really no big deal. The owner's manual says that that occurrence is normal.

    > General question: My '90 Dodge B150 has a
    > sliding side door, but I am considering dual
    > doors in my new van.

    Besides the reasons I mentioned above for getting a slider, there's one more thing that sort of tipped the scales for us. When the redesign of the GM van first came out, a big deal was made out of pointing out that the rear doors have hidden hinges, giving it a clean look and protecting the hinges from rust, presumably. Meanwhile, protruding hinges on the swing-out side doors continue to be used! The slider doesn't have protruding hinges (but it does have a big black track in the side, if that bothers you). Mini-vans tend to have a hidden track or at least have the track the same color as the van; however, in the GMC Savana/Chevy Express, the track is always black.

    > I am also considering dual rear doors instead
    > of the single door I have now. Anybody have an
    > opinion?

    That single rear door is unique to Dodge, which makes it pretty cool, I think. But I guess it's kinda like deciding between a side x side refrigerator vs. a top/bottom freezer model - you need to be sure there's enough space for the door(s) to swing out. One *major* advantage to Dodge's single door is rear visibility - it eliminates that center pillar.

    > We checked out a new Dodge Ram 3500 and
    > the sliding side door was very lightweight. It
    > felt flimsy and cheap. My van's side door is
    > hefty and feels solid. What are the sliding
    > doors on other makes/models like?

    Ours seems solid enough.

    > The door, which used to open 90 degrees, now
    > opens 180 degrees. Someday, maybe I'll get it
    > fixed...

    The GM's rear doors are *designed* to open 180 degrees - and they do! :-)
  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    Midasgold, when I mentioned shoulder belts in SUVs, I meant compared to the Dodge Ram. As far as I know, SUVs, like all passenger vehicles, have outboard shoulder belts and center lap belts. The Dodge Ram, on the other hand, has shoulder belts for the front passengers and for the outboard seats behind the driver. The outboard seats on the right, behind the front passenger, have lap belts, as do the center seats.
  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    rogerf2, in post #235, I wasn't clear about what you were saying about dual side doors. You said, "Before you can go anywhere...you have to shut one or both doors." Does that mean you sometimes drive off with your sliding door open? I've seen people do that, but I don't think it's very safe... ;-)
  • chevanchevan Member Posts: 10
    How practical is the big rear door on your van? I find them to be limited in use unless unloading t items to curbside or can the door be released to 180 degrees? I am always on the lookout for a loaded Ram wagon with dual rear doors. Recently a friend and I test drove a Chevy Express conversion "halfback" by Glaval. Luxury (if you want to call it that) up front with a separating wall for a panelled cargo space in the rear. It handled beautifully on the highway and back road with it's 5700 vortec engine. The price was heavy, though. 25k list plus 10k more for the "pkge". My friend and I could fix up a loaded cargo van for much less money.
  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    I've never had a van with dual rear doors, so I can't compare how practical one is over the other. In the 9 years I've owned my Dodge Ram Wagon, I've never *tried* to release the rear door to open more than 90 degrees - so I don't know if it can be done voluntarily or easily. However, I don't think so. It doesn't look like it can be done without tools. If you don't want to use tools, use a lot of force - say a 60 mph or so wind. (see post #234)
  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    Of course, if you *force* it open past where *it* wants to open, it will be broken. I do not recommend or advocate that anyone break their door.
  • rogerf2rogerf2 Member Posts: 5
    to ariel

    By "go anywhere" I meant walking, not driving. Whether in a parking lot, a campsite, in the pits at a race, or whatever, those open doors always seem to be in the way (even though they can be "released" to open wider).
  • rogerf2rogerf2 Member Posts: 5
    I'm planning to buy a new van in the very near future, and am currently debating whether to buy a Ford or a Chevy. the Chateau option on the Ford (7-passenger w/4 captain's seats) looks interesting. Does anyone have one of these? How do you like it? I have not been able to see one at a dealer, of course. Is it hard to get past the 2nd row seats to the 3rd row bench seat?
  • ahlindmeahlindme Member Posts: 1
    I am considering a full-size conversion van were can I go to do research comparing the conversion companies, quality, and pricing. I have not been able to find any information that does comparisions only the individual companies.
  • stretch1stretch1 Member Posts: 1
    Looking for a 15 pass. one ton WHITE Dodge Van. Want a SLT package with pwr windows, pwr locks, keyless entry, side and rear windows that pop open. I am looking for a 96 or newer model with low miles.

    Please e-mail me if you have one for sale at
    Goldspring@aol.com
  • mousermillmousermill Member Posts: 1
    I would love to have a full-size conversion van, presently have a Grand Caravan and love it except for family road trips with 6 adults...it gets a little crowded. My concern is gas mileage around town for everyday use and going back and forth to work 32 miles round trip.

    How do I learn about the various vans out there in my area (Western Mass) w/o looking like a simpleton?? I've ruled out Dodge because of the shorter bed over GM or Ford. I like my leg room!
  • jboaterjboater Member Posts: 199
    mousermill:

    I drive a '97 Ford/Coachmen with the 4.6L V8. Commuting is 20 miles each way with a mix of x-way and surface streets. Warm weather mpg is about 15.5 to 16.1. It drops about 1 mpg in cold weather months. (Detroit area)

    Jerry
  • dodgeshopperdodgeshopper Member Posts: 2
    We are interested in purchasing the Dodge 1500 wagon but are concerned about the air conditioner being powerful enough to adequately cool the entire vehicle. We are looking at the 5.2 l v8 and Dodge does not offer the optional rear air with the short wheel base 1500 model. Would appreciate any comments from those who have experience with these vehicles, thanks.
  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    dodgevanshopper:

    I have a 1990 Dodge Ram B150 passenger van with seating for 8 (2 bench seats), which is the equivalent of today's 1500. The air conditioning hardly reaches the rearmost bench seat.
  • dodgeshopperdodgeshopper Member Posts: 2
    ariel,

    thanks for the information regarding the ram 1500 a/c.
  • fourspeakersfourspeakers Member Posts: 4
    I want to purchase a Ford E-150 XLT with the chateau package. We live in southern Maryland (35 miles from Washington D.C.). These vans don't seem to be very popular around here. It may be possible that I'm looking too late in the model year. I would be willing to travel about 1000 miles or so to get one if anyone knows of an area that this van would be easier to find. Thanks for your help.
  • jeffsjeffs Member Posts: 23
    fourspeakers:

    Yes you are now into the 2000 model year. You didn't state if you are looking into a new or used. Any of the online car suppliers should be able to locate one for you, 99 or other.

    I have a 99 Club Wagon (loaded) and am very happy with it. Its worked out much better than pickup trucks I've had in the past. There is a ton of room in it.

    If you do decide to order one I would recommend going with the 5.4L engine. These vehicles are pretty heavy and you'll want as much get up and go as you can get.
  • bobbypinbobbypin Member Posts: 1
    do I choose the '99 chevy express, savannah, or Ford Econoline. we need 12 seats and luggage room do we go with a 12 or 15 passenger? and is this the best month to buy? do you order it or just take from the dealers?
  • goodfellowgoodfellow Member Posts: 2
    fourspeakers:
    Richmond Ford had a couple '99 E-150 Chateau's 2 weeks ago. One had a 5.4L engine, don't know about the other.
    www.fordnews.com has 2000 Econoline info & MSRP princing. Not much change from '99
  • milniemilnie Member Posts: 1
    I'm planning to buy a Grand Caravan SE AWD in Sept to use in the US for a while then bring back to Europe long term. These vans are fairly common here and so service, spares, etc will not be a problem. Also prices in US are much cheaper.
    I'm having a problem tracking down a vehicle using the usual internet sources and wondered if it could be because the 99 models are being sold out in anticipation of 2000 version. Does anyone know if the 2000 models will differ much from the 99?
    Also, when exactly will the 2000 models be in dealers hands?
    Anyone had any experience of using one of these models in Europe?
    I would be grateful for any thoughts
  • jackson43jackson43 Member Posts: 15
    I am considering a 1993 - 1995 Chev conversion van G20 LWB. I can get useful information from Edmund's regarding the price of the van, but what is the average value(if any)of the conversion above and beyond the base van value including options..? I have owned 4 Chevy conversion vans since 1978, and I realize conversions differ in quality, but is there a "rule of thumb" I could use when looking at 93 - 95 models...?

    Thanks
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    Ummm...unlike my last post, you might be successful asking Car Man over here!

    What is a 'typical' good discount on a used car?

    guitarzan
    Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Milnie:
    You'll probably have better luck in one of the many conferences devoted to Dodge mini's, or mini's in general. The subject of this conference is full-size vans.

    Also to somebody else back there whose name I forget:
    If you want a 15-passenger, in my opinion, Chev/GMC has that category completely sewn up. To my knowledge they are the only manufacturer who makes a dedicated chassis for that size vehicle. The other manufacturers splice longitudinal members into their shorter chassis to lengthen them, producing a much weaker, but heavier frame.

    If anybody wants to dispute this, I'm interested in hearing about it, but I've heard this from several sources that I consider credible.
  • xavier1xavier1 Member Posts: 1
    I had another thought after my last question on the full size vans. What are the pros & cons of the regular full size van and getting a full size conversion van? We've got three (four in Nov.) little kids and my gut tells me the conversions are just more things to get broken, malfunction, or wear out. It seems like the conversions "wear quicker" than just the plain regular. What is the average price difference also? Thanks!
  • asimpsasimps Member Posts: 1
    I've decided to buy a full size van and set it up to be my main
    transportation pod as well as for weekends at the dog shows. In
    starting my investigations, I leaned toward the Ford Econoline cargo
    van 250, since I'm a long time Bronco owner. However, this has turned
    into a nightmare of confusion, and I wonder if Ford or the dealers even
    WANT to sell these things!! Maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people
    or asking the wrong things, but this is really weird.

    I realize that these vans need "converting" before they're set up the
    way people want, but it seems to me that dealers won't make the effort
    to bring this all together for the customer. The particular van I
    wanted, I was told, was unavailable - popular model particularly for
    commercial purposes, late in model year, etc. But then they said they
    could order one but it would have to go to a "van pool." Then they said
    that I couldn't have the various option packages that are listed
    because these are now somehow not available. However, I COULD order a
    one-ton van, which would give me more options (I don't want the one-ton)
    After getting totally confused, the sales guy finally tells me that
    almost all of the vans they get in are for commercial users...in spite
    of the fact that I see lots of "converted" Econolines on the road...and
    he doesn't think he can help me...

    Please help! I just want to buy a damn van, get it finished inside so
    it looks nice and is comfy without going nuts over it...who do I talk
    to?? Is a regular dealer the wrong place to go? Thanks!
  • ernesternest Member Posts: 30
    I am in the process of ordering a 2000 Chevrolet
    Express passenger van. In the 2000 Dealer Ordering Guide, the document from which he orders vehicles, there is a section on new features-exterior. Here is lists 3 new colors and then the following: "Light Autumnwood Striping - Adds a Touch of Class (available with LS trim)".
    No one at the dealership, the zone manager, GM customer service and the dozen or so other numbers to which I was referred knows what this is or how to order it. It has no order code. I am now checking at the Chev. manufacturing plant in Missouri and they are researching it. Does anyone out there KNOW what this is???? Thanks
  • jboaterjboater Member Posts: 199
    You might want to decide on the conversion company first. Give them a call and ask for selling dealers in your area.

    Jerry
  • occupant1occupant1 Member Posts: 412
    What you have is a classic case of dealer greed in 2 forms. One, they want to sell you THEIR conversion van at retail, not have you go get your own. And two, they want all their 250 series vans for commercial users because commercial users pay close to retail. Why should they sell you a cargo van when 5 other companies want that same van at the end of the model year to get all the rebates? It is too bad the dealers don't let the consumer pick what they want. You just have to go in and be as stubborn as you can, walk around the lot, find the van you want and buy it. They can't tell you they can't sell it to you. Now you could order a 2000. but typical dealer greed means they will do all they can to make you pay full sticker. Don't. And they are BSing you about ordering options on a 250. You can order it in powder blue and gold two-tone with red leather seats and 20" custom wheels for all they should care. The only thing you need to worry about is checking Edmund's to see what the invoice price is and what all rebates there are, and make a deal for a few hundred over their cost, and bicker as much as you have to in order to get that target price.
  • tequesttequest Member Posts: 1
    Well I hope I don't have to return for a few years, I bought a conversion Van at near cost in Houston last week. Cost being near base price of a box van no conversion.


    I had experience the same don't know don't care from many of the dealers. My local small town dealer will cry the blues when I take it in for the first service. I called him 4 times this year, and received no replies.


    So far Lone Star Ford in Houston has been the best dealer, they have a great web page and also their sale paper listings on their site.
    They did hate it when I pulled out the Blue book values for my trade in Chateau Van. We had about 4 hours of negotiations. We baited and switched to get our price. After 3.5 hours they would not meet our price so we said ok lets do the deal on the cheaper van. They were not ready for another battle. They came back with $800 more off the price. We had only been wanting $500 but as they say take what you can get.
    PS Got + 20 mph on the first fill up.

  • jackson43jackson43 Member Posts: 15
    I am pulling a RV travel trailer with my 1989 Chevy Van G20 w/350 motor. The trailer weighs around 7,500 LBS. I've done a lot to prepare it for this load (i.e., 3:73 gear w/limited slip; 3 transmission coolers, engine oil cooler, duels, air shocks, helper spings, etc..) It handles the load well, but I ran into a camper who said he improved his gas milage on his 1993 Suburban 350 by replacing stock mufflers with Dynamax or Flowmaster mufflers.

    Any thoughts or experience with this situation..?

    Thanks, John
  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    Just bought a new 1999 GMC Savana passenger van about 6 weeks ago. It was pulling to the right from the moment I drove it off the lot. The dealer mechanic said that it might have been chained down too tightly on the transport and that it would probably work itself out in time, and that they couldn't do an alignment until 700 miles anyway. I have taken it in twice now (currently at 1400 miles), and it seems pretty good, but the steering wheel is no longer tight, like it was new. Also, the wheel was tilted to the right at first, then to the left and the van still pulled right, now mostly centered, but still very slightly to the left.

    Anyone else have something like this happen to them? Any other problems? I'd like to know.
  • willardswillards Member Posts: 1
    Several problems can cause a pull to one side or the other. The idea that they chained it to tightly during transport and it will correct itself, I believe you had better check to make sure your wallet was still there when you walked away from that person. If they chained it too tight to have a pulling problem, they collapsed the spring, flattened the tire or bent parts that will have to be replaced. Any way they should be able to check it right away and tell, unless it was a frame twist and that would take a body frame alignment shop check but that would take some major chaining. (Check for any train derailments during the time just before it arrived at the dealer).
    Since you have had the alignment checked, for the moment we will assume it's correct. The first thing I would do is swap the front tires left to right and right to left. If the pulling changes to the other direction, you know it's a tire problem and you'll have to go fight with your tire dealer.(This is at least the second thing the dealer should have tried).
    If that doesn't make any change go to the service manage and ask where they take their VIP or problem vans and trucks that has an expert alignment mechanic. The problem is most anyone can align a vehicle to factory spec with little or no training (which is what you are usually getting) but finding an expert in a dealership is rare.

    A very important point to remember is that the steering gear can cause a pulling problem, which can be severe, if the internal ports are misaligned. The steering fluid is always pushing it to one side no mater what you do and the tires won't have abnormal wear because you're fighting the power steering gear. Tell the service manager you want this checked and they will be happy to send you to an alignment expert because the only way to check power steering gear alignment is to completely disassemble it and check everything with a micrometer. Then they have to re-shim the gear, put it completely back together, and see if it made any change. Then repeat as necessary. Most install a new gear rather than spend the time required. This can be checked by jacking the front of the van where the tires are off the ground. turn the steering wheel until the tires are straight, start the motor for a few minutes and shut it off. If the tires remain straight, the steering gear is not the problem. If the tires turn, start thinking steering gear.
    Now go ask your service manager why they didn't do these tests to start with other than his department just didn't care more about fixing the problem than getting it back out the door.

    Finally, Get the Sales manager in the corner in front of a room full of potential customers and discuss in a calm voice but in volumes how poor his service is on a brand new vehicle.
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    Great post. Learned a lot.

    As to the bit about "chaining it down too tightly on the truck", I agree that that is one of the sorriest excuses I've ever heard. If it was really chained down tight enough that it has not yet recovered, it never will. Like you could possibly compress a spring so much that it would take a month to get back to its full length. Puh-leaze!
  • arielariel Member Posts: 12
    Thanks for the info. I didn't know any of that stuff about the steering wheel. I haven't looked into that yet. The van drives straight now, but the steering is not tight. Once the steering wheel is off center, can it ever be centered again? It seems to me that it ought to be fixable. What about tightening it? The dealership said they couldn't tighten it without messing up the automatic return - i.e. the way the wheel straightens itself out after turning a corner.

    tia
  • midasgoldmidasgold Member Posts: 65
    Fascinating post. We also have a '99 GMC Savana (2500). Our van has over 11,000 miles on it now (7500 acumulated on a 3-wk cross-country trip), and has been performing beautifully. The steering tracks straight as an arrow and the wheel has a nice, firm, responsive, centered feel.

    Recently, we've noticed a high-pitched squealing/whistling noise during low-speed turns. Our dealer examined it, and was unable to locate the source of the sound other than to say it "sounds like it has to do with the power steering hoses." Their fix? They've ordered a whole new steering box to replace the original one, for which we are currently waiting for the parts to arrive.

    Now your post has me concerned. You wrote: "A very important point to remember is that the steering gear can cause a pulling problem, which can be severe, if the internal ports are misaligned." Well, as I've stated, we don't have a pulling problem; our steering is flawless, except for this little noise. Now I'm afraid that if we let the dealer "mess around in there" and replace the steering box, we might run the risk of ending up with poorer steering performance than we had with the factory steering gear! You know: "If it ain't broke..."

    Please tell me if I'm worrying needlessly, or if I should cancel the gearbox replacement and live with the noise.

    Thanks!
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    but one that I can:

    Ariel -
    The steering wheel can be re-set to its original position or any other. It's just a matter of loosening it, moving it to the right place and retightening it.

    Back in the good old days, a good mechanic would re-center the steering wheel as a matter of course, before releasing the car to the customer. Nowadays most mechanics figure any steering wheel position is is as good as any other.
  • lynn19lynn19 Member Posts: 2
    I just purchased a 97 Ford econoline 350 and would like to know all the differences in this vs. the 150.
    thanx, lynn
  • C13C13 Member Posts: 390
    I think it mainly refers to the strength of the chassis. Some other components are more beefy too in the 250 and 350.

    For light use, I think the 150 should work fine.
  • lynn19lynn19 Member Posts: 2
    Do you know what other components are ''beefier'' on the 350 vs the 150?
  • larry63larry63 Member Posts: 3
    Rear axle
    Frame (slightly thicker)
    brakes
    suspension
  • joopjoop Member Posts: 1
    I am thinking about importing an Odyssey from Canada, but for fiscal reasons I need to know the cargo height directly behind the front seats (in their rearmost position). To have the same measurement taken some 79 inches further down would be very helpful to me.

    Who can help me out?

    Joop
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    The Odyssey topic is quite busy, you may want to post there if you haven't already.

    guitarzan
    Community Leader/Vans Conference
This discussion has been closed.