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Comments
I agree -- I think subarus are probably great cars and I think I just got a bad one. Bill Lineberry my regional rep and Susan Hoff with SoA though are not doing a good job with my case. Susan also insinuated that I have unrealistically high standards in demanding that the engine ping be repaired or vehicle replaced. She also said that just because my car had been to the dealer 6 times didn't mean that there was anything wrong with it 6 times and that evaluation doesn't equal an attempt at repair. Obviously I think she's full of crap!
I have documented invoices and each time I took it in they did more than evaluate it -- they always tried replacing parts, gas, etc. I know they've tried to fix it and they just don't know what's causing the problem, but they won't admit that it is a problem. I've been calling other Subaru dealers service depts. across the southeast and not one department has had a car with engine ping. So who's telling the truth Susan Hoff, or all of the service depts.?
thanks -- I appreciate everyone's advice.
-r
I know I'm playing the devil's advocate, but that at least seems fair to me. If you turn their offer down, I wonder if they can transfer that offer to me so I can get a Forester S Premium! ;-)
Ask them to work out a deal with similar terms to your current deal. You should be able to recover most of your down payment (maybe all with the $1500 credit) and apply that to the new car, so that your payments are similar.
That's just my opinion, of course. It's your call, totally.
Manuals? I have yet to see a Chiltons or Haynes for newer Soobs. Then again, they aren't that good - I could not adjust my Miata's timing with a Haynes, only vague photos and names of components I was not familiar with were offered. Miata.net saved me there, with photos of the specific items I had to work with.
AWP is worth it, IMO. I wish my Forester had heated seats. It's such a luxury. My dad's got 'em on his OB. Premium european brands charge about double, and Subaru throws in the heated mirrors than help them stay dry and aid visibility, plus the windshield.
Congrats Paul. Easy on those rotores as you break it in. Of course if you have to stop, by all means stop! :-)
-juice
Just quite an experience and my first when buying a new car. I really love the Outback model--and I looked at dozens of cars and I was narrowed down to the Outback and the Ford Windstar minivan. I couldn't resist the look of the Outback.
bit
Congratulations on your new OB! I hope you enjoy yours as much as my wife and I enjoy ours (00 OB). I don't know what type of vehicle you had before this but just a note of caution: Subaru's have higher handling, traction and performance limits than typical cars. It's important to remember this while driving, especially with snow or rain on the pavement. No vehicle defies the laws of physics.
AWP: Though I live in San Diego, I made sure our OB had the AWP. Minimal expense and worth every penny when it snows or when you drive to the snow. (Oddly, I didn't get this on our Legacy when we lived in Chicago - wished I did.
Live Happy,
Chris
The latest "fix" was to replace my timing belt, which has had no effect on the pinging. My dealer/SOA experience has been pretty good. They've acknowledged the problem and have been trying to find a fix. Remember that even after warranty expires a manufacturer is responsible for a documented problem that occured under warranty.
I am concerned about the longevity of the engine with the sustained pinging that occurs. Clearly, since the majority of Subaru's are not pinging, they need to find a fix to the one's that are pinging. Claiming this is "acceptable" is unacceptable. As much as I like Subaru's, I'm not sure I'll be buying another one - the jury's still out though.
bit
-Brian
I hear you about the physics of driving - by no means do I expect my 'Roo to defy those laws! I've never been in an accident after 15 years of driving, and I hope to keep it that way (knock on wood).
However, the vehicle physics of my new wagon are substantially different than those of my previous car - a Saturn SL2 sedan. The 'Roo has more than a 1000 lbs. curb weight on the Saturn, and rides MUCH higher (it wasn't uncommon for the Saturn to scrape the front end a bit at the bottom of a steep driveway). Those 1000 lbs make for a big increase in momentum - especially going down hill!
After 8 years of driving my Saturn, I was intimately aware of how it handled, sounded, and felt and I responded appropriately. It's gonna take some time to break those old habits, and tune my intuition to the 'Roo.
Well, I'm off to Pep Boys to get some goodies for my new toy.
Keepin' it safe,
Paul
Eric, I share your concern for the longevity of an engine that pings. The independent mechanic that listened to my car yesterday concurs as well. It's irresponsible for Susan Hoff with SoA to tell me that pinging is not detrimental to my car in any way. The most important thing is to find a fix sooner than later, the longer this goes on, the worse it is for the pinging engines.
Thanks again for the posts, it seems like all of the folks that post to this site really know their stuff.
Sharon
"Does the de-icer on the front windshield really work? My assumption is that if there is ice on the front window you will still have to get your hand scrapper out and have at it..."
Here in the Great White North the AWP is standard on the OB. So I find myself on the mild wet BC coast with heated mirrors (handy for those high humidity days during the monsoon season), heated seats which I hate 'cos the switch always gets knocked on, and heated wipers. These last I used once, last winter, when we had our one and only snowfall. As someone else said, they are only supposed to stop the wiper icing up...they don't clear ice off the glass. But I stopped twice on the 25km journey to clear ice and packed snow off the blades...I was using the washer quite a bit and it built up on the blades and below them too.
Was the heater thing working at all? I couldn't really tell. I think you'd need to be on a much longer journey and be more familiar with driving in falling snow conditions than I am.
But the AWD was awesome! I deliberately went up a VERY steep winding road covered in 4" of untracked snow, and even made a "drop the clutch" standing start halfway up it without wheelslip. Totally undramatic but very reassuring. You'd really have to work at it to get this car stuck. Maybe drive into the ditch or something.
Our snow here (if we get any) is always difficult because it's wet; there's sometimes ice in with it from melting and refreezing too. It doesn't get cold enough for that easy-to-drive-on stuff you get in colder areas.
Likes:
1. Good ride. Stable. Quiet cabin on most smooth roads but ... (please read more)
2. Good value. A lot of car for the money.
Dislikes:
1. Overall fit and finish, frankly it is no Honda no matter how much I try to defend it. Quite a few cheap looking snapped on parts. To name a few: the plastic panel below the windshield glass popped out the very first day. The fake wood dash is not very classy, I rather have real plastic! The workmanship of the seats appears to be poor, the rear head rests are the worst looking of all, they're not nicely shaped and stitched. Very "Rentown USA". Of course, I removed them all on the first day. In contrast, the overall fit and finish of the Passat is simply first-class.
2. Road noise is quite intrusive on certain parts of highway. I think the car could use more sound deadening materials in the floorboard. The upper part of the cabin is well insulated, however. This probably makes road noise even more noticeable.
3. The shifter is a bit clumsy to engage, specially in reverse. I found one problem that need to be fixed soon is when in first gear, the shifter has tendency to pop out to neutral, when the car is moving slowly on flat or slightly inclined surface. Has anyone experienced this? Hope it is not serious.
The frequent complaints about brakes noise, dump seat heater switches location and hard to shut rear lid are all true. They just don't bother us that much.
Like many posters on this board, even with those shortcomings, we like our new OB. Can't wait to take it to the ski slopes on Mount Hood this winter.
Driving in 90F degree weather and was wondering why the AC was not cooling off the car as quickly as usual. Then I realized the heated seats were on....high!. I agree, it is too easy to hit those switches. Can't wait for snow.
Greg
Greg
Paul - just took some out-of town guests for a weekend trip - drove in on the east side (Windy Ridge) Friday, back around to spend the night in Castle Rock (El Compadre - Muy bueno!), then in from the west to Johnston Ridge the next day. Total miles from north Seattle: 530. Will spend a night in Humboldt County (Eureka - staying near Old Town, overlooking the bay), SF (2 nites), Big Sur, Morro Bay, then the long haul back to Seattle.
A big "thumbs-up" for the AWP - especially in places like Seattle. Even used the mirror heaters in the mountains last week. Funny thing was explaining to the San Antonio Nissan dealer why I wanted a Maxima with an AWP - until I told him I was moving back to Seattle - viewed as the "frozen north" in south Texas.
Cheers!
Ken M.
Sharon: I wish we had more technical info. I do know that there is a knock sensor that is supposed to retard timing, and maybe that is what is malfunctioning? Still, it should not need to act all the time like that.
Also, I've heard that a carbon build up in the engine can effectively increase your compression ratio, also causing pinging. It shouldn't be happening to a new engine, but maybe the dealer has some type of solvent-based detergent to clean it out?
(just guessing here folks, feel free to jump in with other suggestions...)
Hmm, what else? Definitely the timing, though on our Subies it's controlled by the ECU. Maybe they can program the timing to retard the spark a little bit. They could at least check it, and maybe dial it back a couple of degrees.
The timing belt is new, and not scheduled for replacement until 105k miles (with an inspection at 90k miles). If it were bad, you'd probably have more serious problems.
If you are in the DC area, e-mail me (ateixeira@ifc.org) and I'd be willing to come over and take a look at it. If nothing else, it's a 2nd opinion and perhaps the dealership knowing a Subaru Crew Chief from Edmunds.com (read: publicity) agrees that something is wrong will motivate them to take a closer look.
-juice
It looks like Susan is trying to find a way to resolve the case. I appreciate your patience and hope that you will continue to work with her.
For your information, I do not get involved with seeking/providing resolutions through Edmunds. I have reported the concern to our Service Department and they are working with dealers to track the issue.
If new information becomes available, I'll share it with everyone here. In the meantime, I recommend you continue your discussions with Susan.
Thanks!
Patti
Patti
Are you a mechanic/subaru tech person?
Just curious, you seem informed.
Thanks to Patti also, for checking in. But I have to say that I seriously doubt that there is such a thing as a non-destructive engine ping. Since what a ping is is the combustion happening at the wrong time, it naturally causes stress for the engine that it wasn't designed for (unless subaru is saying they design their engines to ping and that would mean that the other 99% of the engines that don't do it are defective). In any case, I stick by my original belief that no new cars engine should ping whether subaru or not. They need to find a fix. I doubt it will happen before I unload my car (I will get rid of this whether I do it amicably or legally is up to Subaru).
Again thanks for the feedback, keep it coming.
Sharon
I'm first timer on this message board. I'm planning on buying a Subaru Outback, but can't decide between the Limited and the base wagon++.
Leather is not a must for me at this point. There's a 3K difference in the price between the two models. Is it worth the difference. Some posts seem to suggest that there is not a whole lot of difference.
The only thing that I need is a good music system. I live in Redmond, WA. It rains a lot. I was just wondering if this should affect my decision.
Thanks for your inputs.
-Prasad.
For example, in Camry, I can get a V6 engine and Electronic Traction Control(performance) without having to buy sunroof, alloy wheels, leather, powerseat etc. (luxury). In Legacy L, I can not just add a rear LSD (performance). The alternative for rear LSD is going to GT and having to spend on sunroof, alloy wheels, powerseat, etc. (luxury)that I do not care about. I believe one can get all the performance options in Toyota with less spending on luxury options as opposed to Subaru where to get some performance options one has to spend a lot on luxury options.
juice: Thanks. I was comparing the marketing approaches, not cars and prices.
OT - I'm an ex-Wisconsinite. We left about 25 years ago and I miss it immensely. I grew up in Shawano but often dream of moving back... perhaps to the Madison area. Help me convince my wife we need to increase our beer, bratwurst and cheese intake and get out butts back to the hinterland.
bit
The last time I was at State Street in Madison, I didn't feel too well in the morning. Ah, that was 4 years ago though.
-Brian
Let's see, to keep this on topic... this home sickness for Wis is why I bought the Soob. Needed a good reliable all weather car to make road trips back there every year. So far it's been great. Hope to make a trip back this fall or maybe even Christmas. Haven't been ice fishing in a while and could take the Soob out on the lake and really try out the AWD.
bit
Would love to visit Wisconsin. Hmm.....road trip in my OB?
Prasad - Mechanically, the base OB and the limited are the same. The limited has the leather seats, dual moonroofs, tinted windshield, etc. One important factor could be the side airbags in the limited, although they are small. You need to decide if the extras are worth the price and/or how important they are to you. My wife and I decided to go with the base and add the CD player, AWP, auto and security system. No regrets. If your thinking about the limited, for a little more you should look at the llbean version with the bigger H6. Again, how important is that. Have fun driving them and deciding. Good luck.
Greg
I have a really odd noise occurring intermittently. I first noticed it several times when I pulled into a parking space and turned off the ignition and my foot was still on the brake pedal. It is a momentary low groaning noise. It lasts for 1 second, or 2 at the most. I heard it again last Saturday while I was in line at the car wash. It happened several times when I eased my foot off the brake to move forward and also when I had my foot on the brake, but was not moving forward. Then, tonight, I heard it many times as I was driving in stop and go traffic on the Interstate. But it happened when I had my foot *off* the brake as well as when I had my foot on the brake. First, it occurred when I had the brake pedal depressed just enough to allow the car to roll forward slowly. I have an automatic (LL Bean). It happened several times like this. Traffic was creeping along, barely over 0 mph. Then a couple of times, it happened while I was accelerating very slowly, but going less than 10 mph. I did not hear the noise over 10 mph. I tried to recreate it in my driveway when I got home, but was unsuccessful. It is not something I can make happen anytime I ease my foot off the brake or creep along barely above 0 mph. It's very inconsistent. Has anyone had anything like this happen before? Any idea what it could be? If it is a brake problem, why would it occur when I'm accelerating but moving very slowly? I don't know how I can bring this to the attention of the service department if the problem can't be recreated at will.
Thanks, Becky
P.S. I still have a case opened on my starting problem, but am waiting for winter temperatures to arrive before I leave it overnight at the dealership. They want to recreate the problem. (As I'm sure they will want to recreate the brake noise before they will believe there is something wrong.) Right now, the ignition turns over 3-5 times when it starts well. Other times, it turns over at least 8-12 times. It is worse on premium fuel. I expect the problem to become consistent in colder temperatures. Then I will leave it at the dealership with a tank full of premium fuel. I hate these intermittent problems. I feel like an idiot tyring to convince my service department that my car is not normal.
Are you serious????!!! I'm not a mechanic but I do know that the "ping" resulting from pre-ignition is not a good thing. Instead of getting a clean burn of air and fuel one is basically getting a small explosion...thats the ping. Higher octane fuel can offer resistance to this detonation but it should not be needed in the 2.5L PII or the H6 3.0 as they should be able to retard timing enough to prevent pre-ignition. When your car is knocking it puts a lot of stress on your heads and rings. Trust me, its always destructive. If it only pings once in a great while its not so bad but should still be fixed. If it pings every time you put the engine under load then you have a serious problem that will impact your engine life. From what I have read about internal combustion engines the "ping" is always bad. Its never good and should never be ignored. Its usually a symptom of other problems relating to a mis-tuned engine. Basically, your engine should NEVER knock. If its its knocking it has problem of some kind that needs attention.
Now for a question, should I use only Subaru oil filters when I have the oil changed? If it makes a difference, I will bring my own filter when I have it done. Thanks!
about. Thanks so much.
FYI - It's not a matter of a dealer "believing" if there is a problem or not. We hate intermitant problems too. If the dealer can't duplicate a concen, they may end up causing other issues by guessing what the issue may be and throwing some parts in to see if it is fixed.
I know it can be frustrating, but we are committed to resolving problems.
Patti
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. If I had a definitive answer, I'd give it to you, but right now we don't. As long as it is not hampering performance, it should not impair the use, value or safety of the vehicle. We are still checking it out and hopefully I'll have more information soon.
Patti
I noticed the ping in February and took my car into get it checked in March. Here are the dates my car went to the dealer for an attempted fix of the problem: March 12, March 28, April 29, June 5, June 25 and July 9.
We purchased the car the end of January. As far as subjectivity of the noise -- it sounds like you're insinuating that have have over sensitive ears. If that was the case I would be freaking out over all of the other noises the car makes (brake noise, roof rack noise, window vibrations, etc.). I had an independent mechanic drive it with me a couple of days ago and he had a head cold and still heard it CLEARLY. If it was a fuel additive thing as Patti mentions, the dealer would have other cars with the same problem (I'm pretty confident ANYONE in my shoes would take their car to the dealer to have that noise repaired). Since this started in Feb. and has been documented back to March, there were no summer additives in the gas.
Thanks for you post Sudhir. I think most people who are know about cars agree with you and your explanation.
In summmary, the ping has been present since shortly after we purchased the car around the end of January. It's not the gas or the additives. And once again, there is no such thing as a non-destructive ping. Are the subaru technical support folks really engineers? or are they trained mechanics?
thanks - sharon
While I'm nobody to argue with a tech. Engine knock has very little to do with metal on metal contact and has even less to do with why its bad for your engine. I had a Ford Contour that knocked on 87 that the dealer said was "normal" and just to switch to 92....I dont think so. It knocked on 92 (but less). Well, its not normal and I complained until they fixed it by reprograming the engine computer and replacing several parts. While going through that process I learned something about how and why it occurs.
One cycle for one cylinder can basically be broken down into 4 parts. 1) Intake stroke (fuel and air mixture are brought in) as the piston goes down. 2) Compression stroke as the piston goes up increasing the pressure in the chamber. At the end (or near) of the compression stroke is where the spark plug fires and ignites the mixture. This is where timing becomes critical to prevent pre-ignition. 3) Power stroke as the burning gas pushes the cylinder down. 4) Exhaust stroke where the burned and unburned gasses are pushed back out the exhaust valve(s). As the cylinder head moves back down the cycle repeats as the intake valves open.
The problem of engine knock is usually in the compression stroke (#2). During compression the fuel/air mixture must kept such a density that pre-ignition does not occur. If one is getting poor combustion (lots of unburned gas left over) or the compression is too high the air/fuel mixture can combust too early (quickly) without a spark. As a result, instead of an even push on the cylinder the pressure on one side of the cylinder can become raised dramatically. This pre-ignition results in massive pressure waves that pass throught the cylinder and actually make the annoying pinging noises. Another reason that its a serious problem is that it pushes against the piston during the compression stroke not as much on the power stroke when it should. This will result in loss of performance and very high stresses on the engine. Either way...its is causing high stresses on the engine. The summary: Engine knock is bad and should not be ignored. If you dont belive me read up on your own and dont take anyone word for it.
The information that I am basing my information is in these books:
1) Lichty, L. C., Internal-Combustion Engines, Sixth Edition, McGraw-Hill, 1951
2) Stone, R., Introduction to Internal Combustion Engines, Second Edition, Society of Automotive Engineers, 1993.
The subaru folks keep telling me different stories.
The posts by the SoA customer support folks about my case speak for themselves on this board.
What surprises me is the variation, because it seems most Subaru engines take just about any gas and run just fine. In another topic, a whole bunch of people chimed in to say their engines never ping. In fact, I'm never even ridden in a Subaru that did, though I do know what it sounds like.
So it should be fixable, but I wouldn't expect it to be easy since they've looked at all the obvious stuff. I would think fuel quality and compression are the key items at play.
Prasad: why not compromise? Get the base Outback with the all weather package. Heated seats are a very nice luxury.
When was the H4 updated? The 2.5l came out in 1996, and in 1997 was updated to make 165hp and run on regular fuel. This is what we generally call the "Phase I", and it was DOHC design.
The Phase II came out in 1999 on the Forester and Impreza, but the Outback only got it in 2000, with the redesign. It got a little bump in torque and a flatter torque curve, plus it switched to a simpler SOHC layout.
Julie: the Subaru filter is made by Purolator, and is generally regarded as a high quality filter. Cheaper ones like FRAM and Pennzoil aren't as well built. Good quality alternatives include Car & Driver (at Target stores) and Mobil 1.
Marshall: it wasn't clear, but are you talking about idle speeds? It is normal for the car to idle a little higher while it's warming up, if that's what you were asking.
-juice
1) High compression ratio (10-12:1) engines designed for higher octane fuel. An example is in the Acura TL-S.
2) Turbos and superchargers. They have lower compression ratios (8-9:1) but stuff a bunch more air into the engine so require more resistance to pre-ignition. Examples are the Grand Prix GTP 3.8L SC, Audi 1.8T and Subaru's own WRX 2.0L turbo.
Knock in an engine designed to run 87 is just a sign of something else wrong. Telling people to switch to 92 is not the answer BUT it does take the least amount of time. Thats not really a solution to the problem. It will stop the ping in a few cases but does not address why the engine designed to run on 87 was doing it in the first place. I would prefer to treat the actual problem as opposed to the symptom. It can be as simple as dirty injectors, bad tank of gas, even summer blends....or more complicated like the ECU programming or timing retard mechanism itself. I dont have any answers but I do feel for people who have the problem as I went through the same thing with my Contour. Our OB does knock once in a great while but I cant reproduce it at will. Its random.
You could have a bad injector (I've heard of a single case where that happened to a Subie), or a faulty set of spark plug wires (common), or even a fouled or incorrect spark plug (even more common). You could ask them to check all these items as well.
What else? Fuel filter. PVC valve. Debris in the cylinders increasing the effective compression. ECU. And timing. That's all I can think of.
Maybe the dealer could do a full 30k service ahead of schedule, to see if that helps. It seems like a way of eliminating several of those possibilities.
-juice
I guess your probably feeling that a defect on their part shouldn't cost you anything, they should either fix or replace the car. Maybe you want them to acknowlage a problem and fix it.
In a world of truley excellent customer service I suppose that they would replace the car. After all if they cannot succesfully diagnose the problem they cannot fix it short of replacing an engine. I have not heard of any car company including the big luxury badges that replaces a car or engine for low to moderate noise reasons when they cannot diagnose a problem. I don't doubt you have a problem but engineers tend to be a very literal sort they would ask
Does it run? Is engine power normal? Are exhaust gases normal? Are parameters X,Y and Z normal? Everything is normal except for hightened accoustic resonance, engine is operating within tolerances. Besides the bean counters at corporate and at the dealer would jump them. Sure one car won't make a diff to SOA but they have a policy. If you start deviating too much from that policy the numbers will mount and profits will be affected.
I'm not saying its right, it's just reality in a profit driven corporation. All corporations draw the line somewhere and the cheaper the profit margin is on the product the closer the line is drawn to you.
Also you might think about how much time and frustration is it worth to you to try and hold Subaru to task? How much work have you missed? How many nights sleep have you lost? How many days have you had ruined by this? How much emotional energy have you spent? And how much more is it going to cost you like this before you get it resolved to your satisfaction. Weight that against how much more it would cost you per month in payments if you get a new one without these problems.
Also lets say that you do hold their feet to the fire and they start doing the part swap routine, after a while the ping goes away or diminishes. How long before it comes back. If you have an engine that has been constructed out of tolerance do you really want to stick with it? Pinging today, clunking tommorrow.
Of course you may be so fed up with Subaru that you never want to drive another. If that's the case take the extended warranty (its worth a bit on trade) and then take your car to a Toyota/Honda/VW dealership and unload it for something else.
It may seem unfair that you end up being out some $$$ for someone elses mistake, but life is like that sometimes. It's important to recongnize when your screwed and minimize your losses rather than duke it out and loose even more. The deprecation hit you'll take on this new car is nothing compared to how much a bad car can cost in repairs!
This is just my opinion and another way of looking at the issue, I'm not affiliated with Subaru in any way. I'm just a guy who's been in similar situations before and learned that sometimes you pay extra to not have to deal with things and its worth it.
My pinging appears to be weather/temperature dependent. The pinging usually occurs when it is above about 70 degrees. In Oregon that usually means the pinging starts to happen occasionally in April or May. We've had some cool days here in July where it hasn't pinged. I tried 92 octane last year with no effect. I also had the 30k service done early with effect.
Patti - if there were more information that you or the engineers would be able to share as to why this pinging is not harmful - I think all of us would appreciate that.
I realize the majority of Subaru's are not pinging, but there is clearly a pattern to this problem... which I know the Subaru engineers have been working on. I truly think the solution will be replacing or reprogramming the computer and maybe replacing the knock sensor as well. My concern even after a fix is found, is the long-term effects of the pinging. My car has 27k and it has pinged many times during those miles.
I do want to again give SOA credit for acknowledging the problem and trying to find a solution. My experience with other car companies has not been as positive.
-Eric
Maybe, 1 of the 4 isn't fed with gas.
Since the knock sensor would detect ignition, sparkplug not firing would trigger the CEL.
However, if there's no gas? I don't think the sensor could detect that.
(My wild guess).
I'm sorry to hear your having problems. I have a suggestion that the dealer may not have tried. Be certain they have tried changing the spark plugs. It may seem obvious but it's suprising how many technicians focus soley on the computers and sensors. Our 2000 OB developed a miss at about 3K miles. The dealer had it for several days and in that time replaced the cpu, spark plug wires, sensors and who knows what else to no avail. I drove to the dealer to see if they found anything. The technician was totally baffled. He called the Subaru Tech Line and still they couldn't find the problem. I asked him to pull out a spark plug so I could inspect it (I really wanted to see the condition and color to see how the fuel was being delivered). I looked at the plug and saw it was a "Champion" brand spark plug. Past experience told me these were poor quality plugs. I asked them to install NGK spark plugs and the problem vanished. All has been well for 10K now. I suggest you demand they change them to NGK plugs if they haven't already. The tech who fixed my car was embarresed and said he never saw anything like it (he didn't even know Subaru switched to Champions).
Since spark plugs play a key role in the combustion process I think it is worthwhile to look into this.
With that said I would like to say that my understanding is that ocassionaly a little pinging is normal and acceptable. It means that the motor is running at peak efficiency and not getting too much fuel.
Live Happy,
Chris
I've always made a distinction between "ping" and "knock" when discussing pre-ignition issues. Pinging is a light rattling sound coming from the engine (marbles on a tin can?) during periods of light load where transmission doesn't shift to lower gear. Can be caused by hot spots in the combustion chamber or bad plugs as mentioned by breckco. The hot spots cause a variation in the flame front during ignition that is heard under some conditions of load and throttle.
Knocking is a serious condition usually caused by bad ignition timing, where the spark is fired too soon in the compression stroke as described by nematode. Imagine the effects of the combustion occurring while the piston was still rising in the cylinder, instead of being driven down in the power stroke.
I had a 1963 Corvair with stock turbocharger, mechanical timing (no computer) and carburetor that had a pressure-retard device on the distributor (compared with the standard vacuum advance) that would retard the timing when the turbo pressurized the intake manifold. If that device became blocked and prevented from operating, the knocking sound from the engine was frightening - it really did sound like it would fall out of the car. A really horrible sound that could not be described as "pinging". The same result could be obtained from advancing the timing on an engine.
A 1984 Tercel with AT (also without computer) would ping going up the hill to my home everyday. Yes, timing, plugs and all were checked to no avail. The only other suspected cause was a hot spot in a cylinder head causing the pinging. In 17 years and 140k miles that cylinder head was never removed from the engine, and it always pinged going up hills. I decided to accept the ping rather than risk the attendent results of removal and replacement of the head from the engine.
In short, it really is a matter of degree between light "pinging" and serious "knocking" from an engine. I would hope that the Subaru technicans servicing your car are making the correct diagnosis from their experience and from the diagnostics provided by the computer in your car. In my opinion only, pinging is acceptable but knocking would not be. But where to draw the line????
I am in San Diego and would volunteer to listen and offer an opinion also if you are in the area. I am not a mechanic, just an enthusiast.
My best wishes go with you,
Steve
Chris - you bring up a great point with the plugs. I remember back a few months where plugs used had the wrong heat rating which was causing problems for someone. Maybe a different heat rating will help with the pinging. Just a thought.
Greg