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Comments
Meade
Meade
Meade
(1) GM would not have issued a recall on the head gaskets if mine were a rare case. They've had enough complaints to make them issue a recall. You don't offer to fix tens of thousands of cars at $600 a pop out of your pocket unless you did something wrong.
(2) I own a 2000 Protege with 28,000 miles on the odometer. No (zero) problems. By the time we had reached 28,000 miles on the Cavalier, we'd already replaced the alternator, two stereos, all the belts and a broken headlight switch. I also owned a 1992 Mazda Protege. I drove that car 83,000 miles in only 27 months (more than 100 miles a day) delivering pizzas. Also, never one problem with that car. None! You won't find me believing any of your statistics (not that you mentioned any) when I have the proof in my driveway.
But in case you're one of those guys who believes everything he reads, then here's a link for you. Notice how there are NO Chevrolet products in the "Good Bets" category, and there are NO Mazda products in the "Reliability Risks" category. Oh well.
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/redirect/content.jsp?PATH=/Special/Autos/Reports/0110use0.html
I hope the next generation compact from Chevy isn't called a Cavalier. I think they need a new name as it should be a big improvement.
Meade
Yes Protoge ranks a little higher, but Mazda as a whole ranks lower than Chev in both customer satisfaction and quality in general. I had a 626 for a short time and although the car was ok, Mazda used to fight every warranty claim. That all said, just be happy with your new car and enjoy it. Life is too short to let stuff like that get you all down and out.
Peace
Dindak, I just spent the better part of a half-hour going through the last several hundred posts in this topic to see if my gasket problem is, in fact, an isolated case as you claim it is. Seems it isn't. The following people have also had to replace their head gaskets due to GM's "hidden recall" and some have had to foot the bill themselves:
216591 (post 99)
vcjumper (post 172)
geena19 (post 187)
anunnqi (post 190)
treasguy (post 191)
buyingimpala (post 192)
tommy100 (post 391)
jenny14 (post 441)
onepumpkin (post 443)
tony22r (post 512)
occupant1 (post 559)
vocus (many posts)
... and that's just in the "sedans" Cavalier topic. I haven't checked the "coupes" section for the 2-doors, or the Z24 topic, or any of about another half-dozen topics I could check.
It's funny how in almost all of those cases referenced above, either you or your compatriot Cavalier cheerleader, malibu99, has jumped right on top of the complainant and told them it was an isolated case or some version of "hey, these are economy cars -- what do you expect?" Sorry, I expect a car that will outlast its payments for $12,000.
As I searched the posts, I found several posts from you yourself calling the current-generation Cavalier "crude," "rough compared to the Protege," and "out-of-date." You even recommended Mazda to someone in post 210.
I think it all comes down to what American car buyers call quality. Post 540 sums it up completely:
"My 1997 Cavalier with 53k miles has not given me a lot of trouble and has proven to be reliable so far. Problems were wiper motor that took 3 tries to fix, 2 recalls, replacing the tiny front brakes every 2 years along with a set of rotors, coolant temp sensor, and the usual American made squeaks and rattles."
I wouldn't stand for that in a car that has only 53,000 miles on it, and I certainly would NOT call the above list of problems "not a lot of trouble" and "reliable."
Last thing: You got all over me last year when my SECOND head gasket was installed by my dealer using old head bolts, and I complained. You said: "But they fixed it under warranty, so GM did it's part. The dealership screwed up from there." Well, now TWO head gaskets later, fixed correctly, it seems GM's "warranty" isn't worth the paper it's written on -- and the problem is not in the head gasket. Do you really expect a by-god Chevy part, signed by Mr. Goodwrench himself, to last only 4,000 miles, not once, but THREE TIMES?
When is GM going to admit that they manufactured an inferior head, machined of aluminum that is too thin, that warps when heated and blows head gaskets? They won't, but they haven't fooled me. They've lied to me and lost my business. I really expected a brand-new car, whose oil I've changed every 3,000 miles, whose recommended maintenance I've followed to a "T," to last more than 42,000 miles without having thousands of dollars in problems -- and the same problems over and over again. Yes, you're damned right I'm bitter.
I find it hard to believe this "coincidence" you refer to as my head gasket problem is truly so coincidental when so many others here have had the exact same problem. Go read any other topic and see how many people are complaining about head gasket failures in such low-mileage cars. This problem has been documented not only by consumer agencies but by GM itself. Why are you denying it? I don't need any more proof than the now-worthless letter from GM sitting in my file cabinet at home. You'll defend Chevy to the death -- why? And if Cavaliers are so great, why are you now driving an Oldsmobile?
I think I've made my point here. Seeing your history of posts, I don't expect you to do anything but try to have the last word. So here's mine -- our final Cavalier will be sold this month, and you won't have to deal with my head gasket complaints anymore -- but you will see more head gasket complaints. I guarantee it.
Have a nice life!
Meade
Question for you is.. if you were so displeased with your first Cavalier, why did you buy another?
As for GM, the Cavalier is it's oldest design on the road and should have been replaced years ago. Unfortunately the truck market is much more profitable for them so that is where they put the development money. GM makes good cars and trucks in general and Cavalier although ok IMO, is probably the weakest car in the line up.
My advice to you is enjoy your Mazda and relax. I never said you made a bad choice and in fact the Protoge would be on my shopping list today if I was looking for a small car. I really like the new hatchback.
Peace!
By the way, as a parting thought, let me quote to you what the GENERAL MANAGER of Whitlow Chevrolet here in Richmond, Virginia, just said to me over the phone. Maybe this will shed some light on how much trust she places in the product her dealership sells:
"We don't build them. We just sell them."
See ya.
Meade
And yes, Mazdas do have problems. Every car has problems. But some cars have more problems than others do. It's the crappy customer service that's the problem with Chevy it seems. And also inferior products, which they knew because they kept the 2.2 head gasket problems secret as long as they could. That's messed up and not fair.
You know what I had a service technician tell me about my Cavalier when I had it? He said to me, "why don't you just drive the car and enjoy it?" when I took it in for brake problems. I WENT OFF right in the dealership. I got him fired that day for his comment. And I told him to his face, "now I am going to enjoy this".
Meade
P.S. I did get the e-mail address of a contact at NHTSA and left him my service record and a few links to people who've had similar problems. NHTSA does perform investigations on multiple complaints of a similar nature; we'll see what happens. But whatever outcome there is won't affect us very much. We'll probably have a Protege5 in our driveway by Christmas.
It's also strange that out of the 20 cars we have had in the last 6 years the only one that was purchased new that required warranty work was a 2000 Chevy Silverado 5.3.
Let's see....
1. The frame around the rear sliding window cracked. This is a common problem with these vehicles. Did they find a solution? No, they replaced it with an aftermarket sliding rear window.
2. The throttle body was sticking. They did repair this. But it needed a new throttle body with less than 500 miles on it. And it required 2 trips to the dealer to get it repaired correctly.
3. Brakes juttered. Brand new truck required new brakes.
4. Also while we should've noticed it when we bought it the truck had rail dust all over the paint.
5. When it was traded at 7,000 miles and 2 oil changes for a 94 LS400 the transmission was clunking when turning corners at low speeds.
We were done with this vehicle at that point after owning several high mileage Hondas that had zero problems. The Lexus runs like a champ and required only a transmission fluid flush and 2 new tires with 113,000 miles on it.
We also had a 97 Toyota RAV4, a 98 Civic EX, a 99 Accord EX 4 cylinder, and a 01 Accord EX V6 that were purchased new and none of them required anything other than oil changes. Same with every used Honda/Acura/Toyota that we have owned. I guess we just got a bad one too. But if you look at the GMC/Chevy Silverado forums these problems were run of the mill, we just couldn't adjust to making unscheduled trips to the dealer and were afraid of what the after-warranty experience might be like. All of the problems that we had were listed in the forum as typical problems with that particular truck. So don't even try the "you just got a bad one".
A friend at work has a 97 Cavalier Z24 ... it too had to have an engine replaced so I definitely don't want to hear that the head gasket problem is a rare occurence because it's not. A short visit to this forum should be all it takes to disuade someone from purchasing this problem ridden, out-dated car when there are much better choices out there.
(Really, thanks for the advice. I do certain things myself but never tried tackling a head gasket before. But I may look into it if the leak affects our trade-in value a lot.)
BTW dindak, I'm not that wound up that I can't carry on a conversation. You keep coming back and repeating that I'm too wound up to have a conversation with. On the contrary, it appears to me that some people would rather not carry on a conversation with me since I am understandably passionate about this problem. I will not "relax and enjoy my Protege" while that worthless heap of Detroit crap still sits next to it in the driveway. Bitter? You betcha! Even more now! Why?
"We don't build 'em, we just sell 'em!"
Thanks Vocus -- I think any of us (those of us who are honest, that is) would be bitter too if they'd just been told to "suck it up" and pay close to a thousand bucks for the third incidence of the exact same problem in 54,000 miles! What -- should I happily pay my kilobuck and start saving my pennies so I can do it AGAIN in 6,000 miles? That's how long the last two lasted each! What would you do?
Hey -- one new head gasket repair every 6,000 miles -- that comes to 17 cents a mile! At our average of 12,000 miles a year, that's $170 a month! I'd better start my "Head Gasket Piggy Bank" right away!!! Funny; the monthly payment on the old Cav was only slightly higher than that. Yep -- Chevy Cavalier ... the gift that keeps on taking!
Am I supposed to calm my rage toward GM by knowing the the Cavalier is the "weakest link?" Excuse me, but the 12 grand we put toward the Cavalier meant just as much to us as the 12 grand somebody might put into an S10 pickup (which by the way is no pinnacle on the reliability scale either). Since when does GM get to pick which vehicles it takes the time to build right and which vehicles it dumps on the public with manufacturing defects? What an excuse.
How fast has my opinion of GM products fallen in the last year?
LIKE A ROCK.
Name calling and misquoting me is really showing how emotional you obviously are. I think you really need to take a step back and get a grip. Your experience with a GM car is not everyone elses. I thought you sold the Cavalier?
I've tried to be nice and have a civil conversation, but I can't obviously say anything you aren't going rip to shreds.
http://www.consumerreports.org/main/redirect/content.jsp?PATH=/Special/Autos/Reports/0110use0.html
You use your consumer sources, I'll use mine. We can back ourselves up to the bitter end. And speaking of misquoting ... I never said I've sold the Cavalier. Geesh, I just said yesterday I was going to sell it ... it takes a few days to clean up the green mess under the hood, give it a bath and get it ready for trade-in inspection! We'll probably try to wait until the end of the month -- oughta be an incredibly rich buyer's market then!
And another misquote on your part ... I never said my Cavalier experience was everyone else's either -- but I don't have to. Dozens of folks have posted this common Cavalier problem on Edmunds topics anyway! And GM itself admitted it! So YOU get over it -- no matter whether I said it or not, it IS a common problem. I don't think I've been unlucky having this problem -- I think YOU have been LUCKY not having it.
And there you go again -- the third time today, I think -- calling me emotional. Why do you keep harping on that? Yes, I AM EMOTIONAL! Wouldn't you be too, if you had a car that bites you in the financial derriere every six months? Remember ...
"We don't build 'em, we just sell 'em!"
Meade
"No, all GM cars aren't crap. My dad and stepmom both have Buick Rivieras and they're fine. My experience, however, makes me hesitate to buy anything built in America ever again ..."
I maintain that opinion. Once bitten, twice shy ... I had a shred of hope after last year's second head gasket replacement -- I hoped that maybe this time it was fixed. But I was wrong, and now I (ME) (MYSELF) (JUST ME) (NOT YOU) (NOR ANYONE ELSE ON THIS TOPIC) (WARNING: FOLLOWING PHRASE IS MY OPINION) (YOUR OPINION MAY VARY) prefer not to take the chance with GM ever again.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
;-)
Meade
Maybe we and our family have been lucky with our Cavaliers. It's been a great second car and very inexpensive. The dealership is very good and service is top notch. I'm sorry you had a bad Cavalier. Be happy and don't buy GM again is my best advice.
We had an issue with a 1998 Honda Civic EX we purchased in Nov. 98. It wasn't mechanical. There were some slight imperfections in the paint on the rear of the car. We complained with American Honda in Jan. 99 and ended up with $1,000 cash and a new Accord at cost. That sure beats a head gasket.
Now, I'm outta here.
Meade
black01coupev6 : Our receptionist has a 98 Civic. Just after the warranty expired she had a broken alternator and her barrings needed replacing. Doesn't mean Honda sucks. Means she has a bad car.
Bye. And I mean it this time, Pat.
Meade
Meade
Actually our current Cavalier is leased and will be going back in 6 months. I think I will probably upgrade to an Alero if we don't get a van of some kind.
As for the Honda Civic. Did the battery die and kill the alternator? There are more variables with that scenario than with the headgasket blowing up every few thousand miles on more than one Cavalier.
I'm not trying to start a big discussion American vs Japanese cars, but I still don't understand how one can choose a Cavalier/Neon/Sunfire over a Protege/Civic? Don't get it.
"Good luck. You are right about GM's attitude, and almost fraud in this area."
Meade
dinu01 : The big reason is price. It would cost much more to lease a Civic over a Cavalier. I have a 0.9% lease rate and put zero down and no security deposit. Honda would not lease without a deposit. I know that a Civic is a better car, but I only need this as a second car, something to get me or my wife to work. Cavalier is great for this and less expensive. I will admit, it I was planning a long term hold on the car, I would probably buy a Nissan Sentra.
Watch out for CR. It is NOT a car magazine and there are many flaws in it's testing.
http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,72161-412,00.shtml
I went $0 down on my Protege with 2.9%/yr.
And for consumer reports, there have been some issues with testing as u report, but just the depreciatiation hit u take on GM/Ford/Chrysler if u BUY the car is too much for me at least to deal with.
Example:
This summer...
I sold my 93 civic h/b with 125km for $6k
My cousin sold his 95 sunfire 2 dr with 115km for $5975
And the rattles... don't even want to discuss it.
Probably just b/c when I get a car, I get it to keep it for along time, so a domestic would not do it for me.
Oh well, just personal taste. Can't have everyone driving Cavaliers or Proteges...
Later, Dinu
Cavalier is a very old design and I hope it's replacement is much better. Current model is ok and feature filled and the good thing is GM is selling cheap which makes it very affordable.
Yes I would be mad. Would I waste my time trying to convince someone that they are wrong or right? Nope. I would get rid of the car and get a new one and go to that topic and praise it, rather than wasting time complaining OVER and OVER. Yes I would conmplian but would I bother arguing like you two do. No. Waste of time.
mdaffron
I don't recall caling you names or saying that your case was isolated. So if you want to refer to someone as a chearleader maybe you should look at yourself . All I said was that you should move on with your new car and just move on, NEVER did I say your case was isolated. Maybe you should learn how to read. It is a pure waste of time. Look how 39 posts have been posted here between you and two other people. Fo rthe longest time the Cavalier forum was quiet because no one was reporting problems. But then you come along and start a pointless debate. You will NEVER convince ANYONE that they are wrong and no one will EVER convinve YOU that you are wrong so why keep trying. Get my drift? Your Cavalier sucked big time so did vocu's Cavalier and you made your point and you reported it and stated how awful it was, that is good and dandy now drop the point. I don't see why someone can't say the opposite without you getting mad. Get that point? Yours was bad, dindak's was good. We have had cavaliers in our famili go way over 100,000 and tehy are still going. What does that mean? If someone asks me if Cavalier is a good car I will say "yes", if they ask you you will say "No", are either one of us wrong or right? No, hence, get over it!