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I will not divulge what I purchased, because in the context of this forum it is immaterial as it just becomes a magnet for slanderous remarks. People buy what they like for whatever reason.
This forum has become useless. It used to be a good discussion of the merits of each automobile, and it has now become a garbage filled sandbox where everyone cries about how their car is better than someone else's to justify their purchase.
What a waste of time. If everyone needs to come here to bash someone/something else because they are not secure in their decisions over a consumer product, then there is no value to this discussion except to attack others and their decisions. This goes for both VW and Honda owners who need to attack others to make them secure in their decisions.
I'm OUTTA HERE.
As far as I am concerned, lack of wagon in Honda and Toyota stables did it for me.
Krzys
PS If anybody claims that Camry, Accord or Passat do not have passive safety built in is ...
Acura 3.2TL 97%
Accord EX-V6 94%
Lexus ES300 92%
BMW 330i 92%
MB C240 88%
Passat GLX 87%
Audi A4 3.0 83%
Camry XLEV6 82%
Maxima GLE 79%
Volvo S60 78%
Audi A6 3.0 77%
Saab 9-5 68%
Grand Prix 63%
All cars are 2003. Numbers were obtained using the car comparison at acura.com. Admittedly these numbers conflict with ALG residual values award. Those awards were probably based on 2002. Perhaps accord has risen that much. I don't know how to explain BMW beating Acura though for the near luxury award. I seriously doubt that acura would alter these numbers as they are labeled "ALG residual value". Just food for thought.
Unfortunately, what has been pursued here so far is dogmatism, or at best evangelism. Previous posters likely won’t care due to their personality, but they fail to understand that buying a car is a personal decision based on fragile and futile optimization in a large parameter space. All I hear is attempts to justify and declare as logical a highly personal weighting of a very limited subset of this.
Three statements:
1. All of these cars are great and much better than just a few years ago, and better than much of the competition.
2. You only have one live. Don’t stress out, buy what you like and what feels right to you, within certain but broad limits.
3. Isn’t it great that we have choices?
- D.
You have a good point; the Camry, Focus and even Legacy can be good buys these days on a budget.
On the other hand, 10 years ago I bought a Golf for $13,000, which was about $1000-2000 more than a comparable Civic. I have had less than $1000 in repairs on it, pay less insurance locally because it has an alarm and is not a target car (unlike the Civic), change the oil only every 6000-8000 miles, and have been getting 28/35(average 30)mpg throughout its lifetime. Total cost of ownership and fun factor have been great. YMMV.
In the end, for many people +-10% to 15% or so in the initial price is an acceptable variation when all other things are considered.
- D
So how is your Jetta GL doing ?
Krzys
BTW, if one is the original owner of a '98 -'01 Passat and its transmission conks out before 100k miles, VW replaces it free under the powertrain warranty - and I haven't heard that service being necessary all that often.
I was set on getting a mazda 6, but after getting some advice (from mazda 6 fans) about what to look for and what would suit me best, i looked at each of these cars.
I'm a grad student a thought about what was most important to me in car. i chose my car seeing if they met what i wanted:
1) price (passat was too expensive)
2) styling (accord, nasty [non-permissible content removed])
3) ride & comfort (mazda 6, altima, camry were all good)
4) straigt up acceleration (mazda 6 is gone, too weak at low end)
5) interior (altima is too cheap)
that left me with the camry le and that's what I got! It's dark blue, looks nice, nice ride, handles could be better, but overall very good considering I got the car for about $16.7k, way less than anything out there. hope this is useful for those comparing cars out there!
Even though it was a 2000, I currently drive a 03 Accord EX I4 5M, I thought it should still retain some of the Newness; there was no comparison between the two. The 300M dash creaked and banged around (a lot), the engine was harsh above 4000, and the interior reeked of cheap wood. I won't mention the brakes since that may be due to neglect (terrible, I guess I just did mention it ). I don't recall the performance specs on the 300 but I'm positive my 4 cylinder 5M had better performance in all categories. The 300 may have a slight advantage on power when under 2000 rpm. This did NOT feel like a 250+hp engine, I'm not sure if it was the 4sp tranny or the ratios but it was lacking
I like the styling of the 300M and on paper it looks like it would be a winner when compared to any of these (Passat is my winner) but there is a reason the used ones depreciate. I've driven a 2000 Passat and even though there are variances with all used automobiles it clearly was superior.
When purchasing a new automobile I find it helpful to drive a used one a few years old (when one is available). This doesn't always work when new models come out on new platforms.
.02
Thanks
A typical 10 year old car has over 120,000-150,000 miles, which means it could quickly develop transmission or engine problems no matter what brand. At that mileage, I would strongly recommend a car with perfect maintenance history and a single owner. Even then leave a few thousand dollars in your budget for future repairs.
I don't quite remember when Honda and Toyotas stopped making their wagons, but when I was shopping for a wagon a few years back the used ones were scarce and overpriced. I wouldn't worry about a problem with a single car you owned before. You may be better off with a 5-6 year old Legacy than with a 10 year old Accord or Camry.
- D.
It is hard to imagine why somebody would sell 10+ years old car, which is supposedly running great.
Choose the car and take it to trusted mechanic before paying for it.
Krzys
Why would someone sell a 10 year old car that was running great? Maybe they are just ready for a change, maybe they need something bigger/smaller, or maybe they are like me and my fiance and just like to buy different cars.
The other reason is, the original poster asked for a dependable station wagon (emphasis by poster).
Say a reasonably built car has a useful life of 200,000 miles, after which it becomes a matter of luck if it is still dependable (and I don’t like to use the words luck and dependable in the same sentence). Thus, driven at 15,000 mile/yr, a 10-year old car has perhaps 50,000 miles left, a 6-year old car more than twice as much, while requiring presumably (on average) less repair costs. Taking into account likely safety, power, and amenities differences, the newer car could be a much better deal even if it is three times as expensive as the older car.
In either case, looking at the maintenance record and upcoming service requirements (timing belt/water pump, brakes, tires) as well as having the car checked by an independent mechanic is highly advisable. Also, a car with more mileage, but all highway, will likely have fewer problems than one with lower mileage, but much city/short trips driving.
- D.
The Japanese (ergo Honda and Toyota) had half the failure rates as the American (as if that was a surprise) or the Euro cars. However, as you start approaching the 7 year mark, all off them start to converge to the same failure rates(though the Japanese cars were slightly more reliable, it was statistically insignificant at that point).
Although the final reliability may be the same for all makes and models, the failure rates at the first seven years is still a significant factor - especially after the warranty runs out!
When we were looking for my wife's car, we noticed that...
Passat
+ Average Reliability.
+ Impeccable interior and ergonomics.
+ Minimal road noise.
+ Excellent safety features - standard.
+ Costs an arm, leg and first born.
+ Smooth shifting tranny.
+ 190HP for a V6? Capable, but there are better.
+ Must sell second born for premium gas.
+ So rare, unlikely to be stolen.
Accord
+ Above Average Reliability.
+ Above average interior and ergonomics.
+ Obvious road noise - Honda needs to work on this.
+ Unknown safety features - to me anyway.
+ Costs and arm.
+ Smooth shifting tranny.
+ 230HP V6 Engine.
+ Uses regular fuel.
+ Will show up in top 10 list of stolen cars.
Camry
+Above Average Reliability (though CR will say average)
+ Plain "American" interior. Excellent fit, but lousy styling.
+ Minimal road noise.
+ Good safety features - but must [non-permissible content removed] them on.
+ Costs an arm.
+ Our test model had the tranny fishing problem between 3rd and 4th gears. Probably fixed by now.
+ 200+ HP engine.
+ Uses regular fuel.
+ Will show up in top 10 list of stolen cars.
We looked at the interior of the Altima and just didn't bother with the test drive. All three cars are good cars, but it really depends on what you can live with (or afford).
I agree with much what you said, but I have a few comments with respect to your Passat summary:
>> + 190HP for a V6? Capable, but there are better. <<
Do you like to rev to 5000-7000rpm? When buying a V6, many people like the fact that it can afford them plenty of torque down low. Which the Passat can. But not many of its competitors. Sure, you can have 220 or 240hp, but (1) that is a marginal difference, and (2) acceleration is the integral over the torque/hp available before the peak hp, which is when you shift, and thus a mute point.
>> + Must sell second born for premium gas. <<
You can use regular gas if you want. There is no requirement for premium gas. On the other hand, I leave it as an exercise for you to calculate how much more premium costs over a few years, and whether that should make a difference in a purchasing decision, compared to the total cost of ownership [hint: it does not].
>> + So rare, unlikely to be stolen. <<
Good statistics will differentiate burglaries and losses as a percentage of sold cars. My local university does this, and the state does, too. Properly weighted with number of cars sold, Hondas and Toyotas are by a wide margin the heaviest targets (reflected by raised insurance premiums in my county), closely followed by Nissan pick-ups.
- D.
I agree that the European Accord is a nice family sedan. Unfortunately, it is a bit underpowered and overpriced, here in the US.
- D.
Given the general reputation of VW dealerships, I'm not so sure if I should chance it - given that it isn't stated anywhere on the manual. But you are right, the cost of premium over regular shouldn't add up too much over the years.
I agree with your comments about the TSX. However, its base price is not $25,000. It is actually $26,990.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-05-27-import-automakers-- roundtable_x.htm
Sure the TSX has a beautiful interior, and a nice set of transmissions, but I just find it overpriced for a I4 sedan that is nothing more than a European Accord. Not saying I don't like the TSX, and yes the premium might be worth it to others, but I have got to say that I was shocked when the car came out because the pricing seemed outrageous.
I still consider the TSX one mf my top choices, but like someone else stated. It should have started at around $24,995. Not $26.9. I am sure an Audi A4 1.8t can cost that much as well, but then again, I'd call it overpriced too.
The 3-series starts at $28,500 before you add things that are standard on the TSX like a sunroof and leather. The A4 does base at $25,700 but has only 170HP, cloth seats, and 15" wheels. By the time you add optional equipment you are at $29,300 and still 30HP short and 1 gear short of the TSX.
The TSX is not perfect but it is a nice compromise between less-expensive cars such as the 6s/Accord EX V6 and higher-priced cars like the 3-series and A4.
Outside, chrome strips on door handles and signal lights on mirrors give it an upscale demeanor. 17 inch rims are understated but they fit the car's character.
Seems like a 4-door that would appeal to young families who once owned an Integra or a Civic.
I agree, for $26,995 the car should have memory seats, and a power passenger seat.
Now this is just my opinion.
But like I said, I am still considering the TSX, but the Accord is probably a better value for me.
Note that I am not comparing with V6s, and there are quite a few around that are more powerful, have more low-end grunt, and are still less expensive than the TSX (including the Accord).
The TSX has lots to offer, and for some (but not all) people reliablity is number one priority. I think it would be a good value at $23,000 to $24,000. It still does not come as a wagon, though.
I think I'll save myselve a bundle and get my Forester 2.5XT! More effective space, AWD, and more power!
- D.
Sure the Passat will feel an expensive car, that's because it is more expensive, and for a lot of people money is an issue.
Since you do suggest buying the Passat over other cars, how about suggesting keeping a supply of ignition coils that are still a problem for a car in its 7th year?
And how about the weak 190HP V6, as compared to the buttery smooth 240HP Accord V6?