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Passat GLS 2.8L V-6
Manual 7.3
Automatic 8.2
GLS 1.8T Turbo 4
Manual 7.9
Automatic 8.9
W-8
Automatic 6.5
I don't think the average buyer would consider any of these "slow".
(I know, wrong topic, but I figure since we're talking about fast and slow.....)
If you hit black ice in any car you will be in trouble. No 4WD system, traction control, ABS or stability control can help you on ice.
The TSX has also been tested 0-60 in 7.2 seconds.
What better test is there of low end torque than to look at acceleration times off the line? The R&T comparison included the following 0-20 mph times:
Accord - 1.7 sec.
Passat - 1.9 sec.
So the Passat shows no advantage over the Accord even in such "right off the line" acceleration figures.
Given that 0-something times in performance mags are usually done with clutch-drops (or holding the brake in AT cars), which biases towards high-revving engines, circumvents the low rpm truth, and does not reflect how people drive, I think this is an absolutely marvelous result for the Passat and its mature, well-proven engine.
- D.
Since you're into totally meaningless statistics, let's point out that from 0-40, the Accord's advantage over the Passat is at 21.5%. 0-60 is 20.6%. All the way up to 27.6% at 0-100. So your little exercise in statistics says absolutely nothing about overall performance.
And do we think that those 2/10 of a second mean anything to the average family sedan buyer? Contrary to your opinion, I think absolutely yes, especially in the US, where low end torque is so highly prized. Manufacturers are even going to drive-by-wire throttles and other solutions to allow them to maximize performance off the line.
I wasn't trying to say that the Passat doesn't have reasonable power off the line. But your earlier post about having to stay above 6500 rpm to leverage certain engine characteristics is totally irrelevant for normal operation.
Car mags do very different types of testing depending on the types of cars they're testing. They certainly don't use methods to test family sedans like they might use to test Corvettes and Mustang GTs.
The whole point of my post was not the .2 second difference in a particular performance time... it was just to counter the incorrect allegation that the Passat manages to maintain a low end torque advantage over the Accord. This is simply not true, and the figures I posted support my contention.
Finally, as for mature, proven engines, the Accord's V6 is a variation on the same mature, proven V6 line that has been used for years on Accords, Odysseys, TLs, CLs, MDX, Pilot, etc.
No, this is not a drag racer's forum. But these performance figures translate very well into the available power in routine driving.
Consumer Reports, a testing organization that by their own admission doesn't use clutch drops and brake pre-loading in their testing, found that the new Accord V6 returned 23 mpg in their overall mileage testing using regular fuel. The lower performing Passat returned 21 mpg using premium fuel.
And the Accord does all that while scoring an 8 in the EPA emissions ratings to the Passat's 6.
With the current price of gas, this is something that can have a real impact on the "average" driver. And it speaks volumes about the efficiency of the design of the Accord V6.
As far as I'm concerned, rather than being an "easy correction", chipping is a big gamble with the potential for disastrous consequences. For someone who doesn't want to go through the expense, possible hassle and potential voiding of warranty coverage due to chipping, the Passat indeed suffers from a speed deficit when compared to the Accord, Camry, Mazda 6 and Altima. This is not something that I "seem to think"... it's a documented and instrumented fact.
And let's get one other thing straight... there are lots of things that I like about the Accord in addition to the engine. The fact that I got one of the top performing engines in its class, in acceleration and fuel economy without having to resort to a modification is just icing on the cake. And if I run into a major mechanical issue during the warranty, I don't have to worry about the dealer or manufacturer deciding to save some money at my expense by citing the mod as the cause of the issue.
Passat GL/4: $31.5k, versus
Accord EX/4: $28.5k
Accord LX/6: $29.3k
Accord EX/6: $31.5k
Passat's advantages over all Accords: manumatic, "German feel & cachet"
Talking TCO, above shows that it's really just the BASE Passat GL that is comparable to the TOP Accord EX-V6. At this level, the Accord has many features not found on the Passat: V6, leather, 16" alloy rims, sunroof, auto climate control, CD changer, moonroof, and power & heated front seats. Plus, this hidden advantage: less service downtime due to Accord's better reliability.
For some, the VW's feel, cachet and personality are probably "priceless," explaining why VW still commands a following.
For the coldy rational, based on the TCO, Accord obviously provides the better value.
Sidenote on value misperceptions: the Hyundai XG350's TCO is $6.8k more expensive than either the Passat GL or the Accord EX-V6 for 5 years/75k. Culprit - you guessed it - depreciation.
We're looking for a 4 cylinder manual 4 dr that's comfortable for traveling (in December we took a 5000 mi trip and rented a LeSabre, just to travel comfortably). And I'll commute 2 hours a day, two lane rural highway, light auto traffic but lots of deer and other critters I don't like hitting. We'll keep it 3 to 5 years (about 100000 mi).
What I gleaned from the posts I think is the Camry sounds like the best combo of comfort, quality, and value, but boring. The Passat is comfortable and fun to drive, but not as reliable, and more pricey. The Accord's track record was superb quality (until the 2003 redesign?), with great value, but noisy.
The vehicle I'm replacing is a 2000 Civic - 78000 mi and 0 trouble, but it's uncomfortable and wind/road noisy. Drove a very reliable 88 Corolla for 260000 before it went to the junkyard. Never had a VW.
Of these three, we've only test driven the Passat GLS and we both liked it very much. The seats felt very comfortable, had many nice amenities, handled well, and was quite peppy and fun to drive.
I don't care about torque and 0-60, etc. (unless it's necessary, I drive like your grandfather) and a couple thousand dollars is not much difference on a monthly payment. So, the question, if it can be answered: we want to travel comfortably and not visit the dealer alot - and I don't want to put a wrench on it myself. Advice anyone?
Further Edmunds research states the recommended dealer maintenance is the most expensive on the Passat, followed closely by the Camry. I used the Honda dealer for all service following the "Severe" schedule. They warrantied it for 100000 if I did this. Surprised when I just added it up - almost $1500. BTW, the Honda dealer was the most pleasant and professional of any I've dealt with. No experience with any of the others in my area.
I did buy a new Mazda GLC about 1978 and it ran almost troublefree for a decade. The Corolla only required routine maintenance until 150000. I bought a new Stanza about 1980. It was the only bad experience with a Japanese car - some warranty problems and huge hassles with the dealer (though that was not my current closest dealer). I never saw the Mazda or Toyota dealer again after I picked the car up.
The Mazda is out - no dealer nearby and according to the Mazda website, many options I'd like are not available as a combination with others (very confusing!)
The Altima is the second best looking car (Passat first) IMO.
So, I think you folks talked me into checking the other 3 out more closely, which will take a couple of weeks around here.
One other thing, I think it's unfortunate I checked out the VW first. It appears many features I liked about it are not available on the others wihout getting a 6 cylinder. I'll blame that on my daughter - she came home to visit last week in a new Jetta, which was a quite impressive car.
second, i really don't like jettas. small and expensive car. you'd be much better off looking at another civic or a protoge and not comparing your next car buy to your daughter's jetta. she's gonna pay maintanance out the wazoo and is not always gonna be likeing her car.
third, if you are going to want to compare a camry or accord, probably the two most reliable in the list, to a civic or corrolla, don't! different type of car. you're going to pay a lot more in maintanance and upkeep on a camry type car than an economy car.
also, you having a 2000 civic, you will be dissapointed with the interior materials of an altima. If i were you, i would take the family and test drive an accord, camry, or mazda6 and decide solely on which you as a family liked best.
-camry will feel great on any drive. also, usually a trouble free car for many years.
-accord is going to be a little more fun and feel almost as good but many people can't get used to its look and it's had a good amount of quirks. however, once accord gets over its first year, it will probably also be a trouble free car.
-mazda6 is going to be a lot of fun to drive, especially for the driver, and probably will get the most looks. however, it is a little smaller than camry and accord but it does make the best use of available space. it will also not be as smooth(sedate) as the other two, but that's why it feels so good to drive and why it holds onto the pavement so well. it also costs less than camry and accord, and since you wanna buy a 4cyl car, you will probably get a very good price on it. mazda has been giving great discounts on the 4cyl. i think they overestimated the demand for the 4cyl and severly underestimated the demand on the 6cyl. im not sure, but i think mazda's warranty is also better than honda and toyota. do remember that the 6 is a brand new car(no real predicesor), so it has no established reliability record. do expect though a trouble free car like protoge and mpv.
-passat. what can a i say about it. i honestly don't see what people see in it. it is a smooth driving car, but it is small and i don't think the seats are that well designed. it does have a lot of airbags for the price but it's going to be in the shop a lot. it's a good thing it has a good warranty because it's going to be getting a lot of warranty service. my aunt and uncle bought one a few months ago. it's been in the shop twice for a rattling in the dashboard(still not fixed), for a bad speaker in the back passenger door, for a faulty passanger lock switch, and the back seats wouldn't lock.
Shaheen, some very good points. You seem to be well versed in all these cars. Been there, done that?
I realize we are "stepping up" a class of auto, which includes much more mechanical and electrical sophistication, therefore more maintenance. The mention I made of Corolla and Civic was meant to be a general statement about manufacturer quality.
Maybe I will have to make the trip to the nearest Mazda dealer.
Sounds like your aunt and uncle haven't had the best luck with their Passat. At least it wasn't ignition coils and such some of these posts mention.
Matt, you own a Passat and have had good luck? Do you like it? Do you also own an 03 Accord? How do you compare the two?
The Passat is a 2002 GLS 1.8T automatic, loaded that was bought in April of 2002. It has only been in the shop for routine oil changes every 5,000 miles, you may have heard about coil pack issues with the Passat, although mine never failed, they were replaced under warranty a few oil changes back. Those 25,000 miles are 90% highway miles and I get anywhere from the high 20's to low-mid 30's in gas mileage depending on my foot. The car handles very well in all driving conditions (I can't compare it to the Accord in terms of that b/c I haven't had the Accord through a winter yet).
The Accord is a 2003 4cyl EX with leather automatic that was purchased the last week of March of this year. My wife primarily drives this car and it doesn't have that many miles on it as of yet. IMO, it isn't as good a highway cruiser as the Passat is, but it sure is comfortable and the dual-zone climate control is realllly nice. However, it was a few thousand cheaper, but doesn't have as many "safety" features as the Passat.
Both cars are great, I prefer the Passat, that is why I drive it, my wife liked the Accord, so she drives that. I find both to be extremely refined and (for me) dependable and reliable. If I were you, do as I did and take each car on a test drive that includes both city and highway roads (or whatever kinds of roads your commute will include) and pick whichever car you feel most comfortable with. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the three you are contemplating among. Good luck!
He was stranded on his way to work twice due to blown coils.
The dealer refused to replace the remaining coils each time.
Lucky for him, two coils failed in a single incident.
So just one more to go.
My daughter's 2003 Accord has been in the shop 2-3 time for mysterious groans and rattles which have not yet been corrected. Other than that its been problem free.
"Much the same as someone not being able to justify several thousand dollars more for a car that is slower, historically less-reliable, and smaller just so they can have memory seats. "
I can clearly see how much you love the Saab 9-5, but please remove your BLINDERS and read my previous posts - it is the SUM of the car that ultimately draws a person to buy one car over another. Memory seats alone doesn't make the Passat a better car for me - it is just one of the many features I wanted in a car.
A triviality for some people, but not for one who shares their car with others with varying driving needs.
"If you need stability control then chances are you need to learn how to drive or you need to slow down. Never needed it in any car I have owned."
I am glad that you never needed it, but I did - when I had to avoid a potential accident caused by someone else on the freeway. I think you need to start learning how to stop putting others down with your baseless assumptions, and concentrate on the merits of each car in the discussion.
That 's the same as saying if you need ABS, then chances are you need to learn how to drive or you need to slow down. Never needed it in any car I have owned.
Makes no sense at all.
bjbird2,
I hope we all can agree that mysterious groans and rattles are more acceptable that being stranded on a highway during a cold winter day waiting for a tow truck to arrive.
PS: I am not making this up. He bought a t-mobile cellphone as soon as the second set of coils failed. Hence the headline
"VW boosts cellphone sales in US"
Fortunately for us, VW is replacing out the Coils - whether or not a failure has occurred, so that should be a thing of the past.
With regards to the Accord's rattles, I'm pretty confident that Honda will have that problem locked down and fixed by next year's release - hey, they are Honda, after all!
I am pretty sure that not ever Passat owner is aware of the coil problem, nor have they brought their car in to be repaired. So for them, when their car dies on the highway, those are the ones I feel badly for. On top of that, its not a simple case of bringing your car in. I personally think it’s a huge waste of time and a great inconvience for me to bring my car into the dealership, even if they provide a loaner car. You have to stop mnaking excuses for VW, their reliability STILL isnt up to par, which is unacceptable in such a competitive market, its actually sad considering its a very nice car.
I do feel sorry for lgoldin having these problems but am sure even he would prefer these to mech failures, like water pumps failing etc etc. Hope his problem is resolved.
In fact most owners in the Passat forum are thinking of getting extended warranties for their cars and there are owners asking whether to keep cars more than 60-80k miles.
Surely, for the extra money paid for the Passat, and the number of years this platform has been runing (7), these problems should have been resolved. Most do concur that they love the ride and handling of their cars, so I guess it is to each his own, what compromise one is ready to make.
Another major issue is that VW recommends 91 octane gas, and this grade is unavailable in the US. Most people have been mixing 87 & 93, some even having to do two half tank fillups every time they fill gas. Some dealers recommend using 87 while others recommend 93 and some others recommend mixing. The reason I brought this up is that a friend of mine had a valve fail on this 2003 Passat and the dealer has been giving him this BS that he should have used 87 instead of 93.
The dealer did repair the car but my friend is now worried what happens once warranty runs out and his wife is constantly telling him they should have bought a Toyota Camry instead.
For potential Passat buyers, it may be good to do some research on the octane issue.
Honda's have been having problems (especially 03 Accords) but there is no major defect reported and that augurs well for owners. I for one have an 03 Accord and touch wood, have not had a problem (12k miles).
Believe it or not, most cars will experience some kind of rattle/.squeak during its lifetime, I personally am quite anal and these things drive me crazy, but until I can find a solution ( or the dealer can) I will learn to live with it. In comparison to other problems, yours is minimal at best. They replaced yoru CD player, which is a plus, but the major thing that would bother me, as it is for you also, is having to go the dealer. I definitely agree with that. Give it time man, if these are the worst problems you experience from a Honda during the cars life hen reflect back on your comment about buying a Honda again.
I will say it again and beat the ussue to death:
I will take rattles over mechanical issues any time of the day. If you have to consider buying an extended warranty for your NEW car, then maybe you should think to yourself is this car realy worth it? Lets face it we are talking about VW's and Honda's, not Mercedes and BMW's.
The Coil pack problem recall only surfaced in the 01-03 production run, so it did not take 7 years to lock down, only three. But there are other issues (like secondary pump failures) that still need to be adressed.
I agree that having to bring a car into the dealership is a massive pain in the butt, even with the loaner car.
Mikek37 is absolutely correct about overall VW reliability - it is simply unacceptable in this competitive market. Although it is fair to say that it is EXTREMELY difficult to match Honda or Toyota's degree of reliability, it should not be too difficult to come close to it. Will VW ever get to the same level as a Nissan? Nope. Not their priority. The only solace Passat owners can get is the fact that their car is at least average in reliability - can't say the same for any of thier other models.
Every Automaker has the first year debug period to get thier new model kinks worked out. Honda and Toyota are no different - but they do work them out in less than two years. So some rattles and gremlins will show up in this year's Accord - that's just a fact of life.
Lastly, if anyone here is considering getting a Passat, I think they should also plan on buying some form of extended warranty. Here's why:
1) Passat is not as reliable as the Hondas & Toyotas. A replacement of the Secondary Pump alone will pay for the extended warranty.
2) Any car with lots of extra features like power anything will certainly break and cost even more $$ to fix!
However, don't take my word as gospel, since I bought an extended warranty for my Odyssey too! Don't ask me why...
The Passat: too pricey and reliability questionable (I agree with Mikek37 and mliong)
The EX V6 offers great safety features including traction and side curtain airbags not to mention an incredible interior and the 240 ponies. Definitely not your typical sedan!
Accord wins!
I monitor the accord board because my daughter has one, and I see accord has it's share of problems in addition to the rattles, squeaks and transmissions. For example this one has come up a few times "to those of you that were mentioning long crank times before your engine starts...honda has issued a tsb dealing with this problem. apparently there are some bad fuel pressure regulators on some new accords."
I think owners with car problems come to these boards to find out if their problems are unique, and what can be done about them, so the problems are way out of proportion from real world experience.
"The EX V6 offers great safety features including traction and side curtain airbags not to mention an incredible interior and the 240 ponies"
miamirocks please let me know when you find a car that offers no traction. I know that many lawyers might be interested.
What fuel do you use in your V6 ?
Krzys
I was referring to the TCS (Traction control system) available on the V6 models of many (if not all Honda/Acura V6 models) which is not in all cars or costs extra when available.
Is anybody placing bets on when Honda is going to roll out a new body style for the back end of the Accord? That was the one thing I really didn't like about the Accord - it looked good other than that.
1) In order to completely redesign the back end this would in turn mean a complete undertaking for the entire car.
Its easy to say, yeah redesign the back end, but in all honesty this means you have to change the complete structure of the car, which means NO, it may get a face lift, but the back will not change!
Im probably going out on a limb here, but I believe money constraints are the biggest factor when it comes to car buying otherwise everyone would own a mercede or bmw.
I'll take an M3 if you're buying!;-)