High Performance Luxury Sedans

paulchiu · April 2003

Another comparison between the 2 cars in the May Car & Driver.

As for driving a M5 everyday. I would not recommend it if you live in a place like New York City or any crowded area. If you have drive over hilly country roads, get the M5. If you are 25-34 and live in the city, maybe the M5 can work also.

Just my opinion.

merc1 · April 2003

I kinda figured how those tests would come out, Mercedes just isn't going to deviate from the straight-line stability theme long enough or loosen the grip of their safety systems to match those other cars once the road starts to twist. What I am impressed with is Audi. I never thought I'd see the day C&D would rank an Audi over a BMW. Auto, Motor und Sport also picked the S4 over the M3, and get this the M3 came in last there...BEHIND the C32. GO AUDI! It's about time. And there isn't a new M3 for a while yet, so Audi may be able to really gain some points here.

Does anyone else here get Auto, Motor und Sport? They had a comparo between the 760Li and the S600. The S600 won. BMW thought they were going to crush the 2001-2002 S600 (362hp) with their new 443hp 760Li, but Mercedes said...NOPE.

So lets see, the victories:

M5 - 1 (Automobile/CAR same writer and article)
RS6 -1 (Car and Driver)
E55 - 0
S-Type R - 0

M

merc1 · April 2003

No, the E55 was in all the above tests. It was the new 2003 S600 (493hp) that won against the 760Li.

M

paulchiu · April 2003

Having driven a 2001 S500 for nearly 3 years now, and the S600 recently, I have to add that no matter how fine and powerful they make these cars. They will never be as agile or fun to drive as a smaller car; say the E55.

For me, the C32 is too small, the S500 a tad too big. I should have bought that 2001 E55 3 years ago instead of the S.

Still waiting for a test drive on the '04 E55.

Paul

aki86 · April 2003

The E55 definitely is more fun to drive, but wouldnt the S600 be much more comfortable?

paulchiu · April 2003

Sure, the S600 will be more comfortable than the E55, but not by that much.

For sheer comfort, the motorized Lazy Boy Lexus LS430 is probably the most luxurious moving bedroom around.

But of course, boring to drive hard.

Paul

chavis10 · April 2003

merc1, maybe you can clear this up for me. At first I heard that MB was bringing over an S62 AMG. I read this is a comparison article from Automobile mag between the S600 and 760iL. Any truth to this? I wish they would bring the CL65 over instead. That car has no rival. 612 hp and an electronically limited 738 lbs-ft. The car actually makes 884 lbs-ft but obviously this would be too much for the tranny, wheels, halfshafts, shoot the whole freakin drivetrain. If i had my choice to own any car it would definately be a CL55 AMG. I finally got to sit in one at the New York auto show. Amazing. I must applaud Benz, they realize that raw displacement and force induction is the easiest, most reliable and cost efficient way to produce supercar numbers. I mean the CL65 has the same HP as Porsche's upcoming Carerra GT and mountains more torque. While BMW worries about handling Benz is all about heroic power, which is what I'm about. BMW will reach a dead end soon. The Valvetronic engine has serious limitations, mainly limited rpm. Because of the trick eccentric "3rd" camshaft over each bank, current rpm cannot exceed about 6200 rpm. I do know of a company that supercharges the 4.4L although how reliable it is anyones guess. Also, the can't increase the displacement of their M engines because as we all know increased CCs mean decreased revs. I'm skeptical of these V-10s being introduced. First Lambo, then Porsche now BMW. No one will be able to topple Benz off the horsepower pedestal except for maybe Cadillac. They've been experimenting with a V-12 for some time now. And we all know GM is not affraid of forced induction. Once their six speed transmission is introduced in the next model year or two, watch out Benz.

chavis10 · April 2003

Cadillac's upcoming CTS-V has the current M5 spanked at the price point of an M3.

paulchiu · April 2003

chavis10,

Did they have the 2004 E55 at the show? Is the interiors better than the stock E500 ?

chavis10 · April 2003

Yes, they had the E55. The interior is pretty much the same. The wood is also darker and there's more metallic trim. I think the E500 has a warmer look than the E55.

aki86 · April 2003

I'd do almost anything to drive a CL65. How many cars need to have a torque limiter?

paulchiu · April 2003

So how hot are the car babes at the show this year? Should I bring my 200MM tele or my 17-35MM wide angle zoom?

merc1 · April 2003

After all this time you're back! Really good to hear from you.

The S62 was probably a guess on Automobile's part about what the next level of displacement would be on the AMG V12 S-Class. From 2001-2002 Mercedes sold a S63 in Europe, it was a normally aspirated 6.3L V12 with 444hp. I'm sure they didn't know that the next AMG V12 would be called the "65", which is actually a 6.0L V12. I would bet on a S65 and even a SL65, but I doubt if they'll come here. In browsing through one of my many favorite MB sites, I've found out that the U.S market has missed some really off-the-chart AMG cars over the last few years. There was a SL73 in Europe. A true monster. Mercedes-AMG also has a V10 on the drawing board, for quite some time actually. Oh, and Mercedes is developing a 7 speed gearbox for introduction at Frankfurt this Sept. This is shaping up to be a tech/hp war unlike any ever seen before.

M

chavis10 · April 2003

Yeah, I read about the S63 and SL73. The CL is the best looking car on the market as well as the classiest. I really wish Benz would bring over the CL65 if only to read about it in all the car mags. Or at least offer the 2 piece 19" rims and 8 piston brakes. I'm interested to see exactly how fast it really is. Car and Driver clocked the E55 0-60 in 4.3 so I can only imagine.

merc1 · April 2003

Yeah I pretty much think the CL is Mercedes' best car right now, and easily their best two door since I've been a fan (1986) of the brand. I would say the CL65 could possibly be the first production Mercedes to be able to reach 60 mph in under 4 seconds! Even the new SL doesn't make me want a Mercedes as much as the CL does. There is also a CL cabriolet coming for 2004. I hope it looks a good topless.

M

tjm1198 · April 2003

BMW announced that production ofthe M5 & the Z8 will be discontinued. I read the article from my Motor Trend email newsletter. Please post any response thoughts. I personally think it's horrible unless BMW releases something to rival the M5 which would be tough.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news030422_bmw/

uofmiami · April 2003

The M5 will be coming back next year. Production had to stopped due to the new 5 series body being produced, since the M5 is built in the same plant. Now next year the new M5 comes out with the new 5 series body and a V-10 engine. Look out!

chavis10 · April 2003

You'd better get the current M5 while you can. I have a feeling the new version will be less of a drivers car. The electronic nannies that luxury manufactureres are introducing keep getting more and more intrusive. Not only that, I think the next 5 series looks horrible. The current M5 is still one of the best looking cars on the market. People seem to think the next 5 looks better than the 7. My only beef with the 7 is the taillights. They could have gotten away with the high butt if they new how to integrate the lights properly (especially that horizontal brakelight). At least the profile of the 7 is still impressive. The 5 has too much Z4 in it which is not good at all. The taillights look like they were stolen from the Subaru Impreza/WRX, really, check them out for yourselves. Anyway, what's up with this V-10 mess? Since when to people make V-10s? First Lambo and Porcshe and now BMW. I'm not impressed. They should have went the Benz route and bumped displacement to a real man figure and threw on turbos or a supercharger. Oh well. I can't afford one anyway so...
I think BMW is going in the tank. I don't mean the company, I mean the cars. While Benzs seem to be looking better with every redesign (except for the new CLK, the old one looks better) BMW take two steps back.

1487 · April 2003

BMW has hit the pinnacle of design and performance so its hard for them to make changes without messing up their cars. They are going to add every gadget and gizmo possible to catch up with MB but they fail to realize that they are known for building the ultimate driving machine. Unless new technologies add to the driving experience they are not going to improve BMWs image. BMW is adding electric steering when everyone else has made that change at the expense of roadfeel. If everyone likes BMWs current sterring why change it to an electronic system? I thought they learned a lesson when they retuned the 3 series steering in '99.

merc1 · April 2003

I wouldn't worry about the next M5 too much, I highly doubt BMW will make it a soft, unconnected car. How it looks...well so far my reaction is yuck to the new 5.

BTW, Auto, Motor und Sport just picked the E55 over the RS6 in a comparo tonight. The M5 was not present.

M

aki86 · April 2003

merc1,

Heh...I guess I agree with you again. I don't think BMW will let up on performance, but many people will be turned away by the looks of the car.

I agree with chavis10 too. Doesn't the back resemble a Subaru WRX?

merc1 · April 2003

I keep waiting on someone to wake me up from this BMW nightmare. Here is a company that is so hot right now with their 3 and 5-Series cars on the automotive alter of worship and yet they're hell bent on making them ugly. Part of me can't believe it. Chris Bangle is also a little bit of a liar too. He stated that BMWs past practice of "same sausage, different lengths" was no more yet the new 5 and 3 have same messed up look of the 7-Series. Here I was thinking he'd make each series look "different", yet they all have the same goofy front end and truly awful rear end. I can only imagine how the new 5 was going to look before all the shouting over the 7-Series started.

M

jagboyxtype · April 2003

Bangle's 5-Series lights inspiration:

-The New 5-Series:
http://a298.g.akamai.net/7/298/5382/042103170607/www.imakenews.co- - - - - m/autospies/word_images/3653937_image002.jpg
The Front - headlights

http://a298.g.akamai.net/7/298/5382/042103170609/www.imakenews.co- - - - - m/autospies/word_images/6250288_image002.jpg
The Rear - taillights

-The "INSPIRATION":
http://www.carsalez.co.uk/v-pics/c488.jpg
taillights

http://www.hoot-uk.com/content/regulars/view_from_a_peer/images/s- - - - - trathcarron_11072002_2.jpg
taillights

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - VEHICLE/2002/Lexus/100003424/006445-E.jpg
headlights

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/- VEHICLE/2002/Lexus/100003424/006491-E.jpg
taillights

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/- VEHICLE/2002/Lexus/100003424/006632-E.jpg
taillights

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/- VEHICLE/2002/Lexus/100003424/006606-E.jpg
headlights

Borrowing from Peugeot and Lexus didn't quite seem to work out very well, but perhaps the car will look better in person. Though not totally the same elements of style, the lights do seem similar in general proportion and shape bewteen these cars. I think it also looks way too tall and narrow:

http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/word_images/3218949_image002.j- - - - - pg

http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/word_images/3218949_image008.j- - - - - pg

I thought those rear shots were of the X3 when I first saw them (the first one), but its a 530d. What's with the Pontiac Grand Am grille? Is the huge antenna on roof supposed to go along with the "land shark" theme of the Z4? Some people see the "eyebrows" on this car and the 7 as looking like eyebrows, but am I the only one who sees them as "lazy-headlight"? The pillars seem less sleeked back as well.

Maybe it'll grow on us and look really nice once we get used to it.

paulchiu · April 2003

Say, any link to that article on E55 vs RS6?

Can't get that magazine at my local B&N.

1487 · April 2003

The new 3 series doesnt look as bad as the new 5 or the current 7. Apparently they decided to tone it down on the '06 3 series, a very wise move in my opinion. The new 5 is way off the mark and do not like the interior, it is to angular and dated looking. I was expecting something more dramatic and Audi-like. I was wrong.

aki86 · April 2003

In my opinion, the new 5 looks HORRIBLE. I like the 7 a lot better than it, although I have some conflicting feelings towards the 7. I think they tried to combine styling cues from the 7 and mixed in ugly cues from other vehicles. I hate it (the styling at least)

merc1 · April 2003

Nope, I've tried to get articles before from Auto, Motor und Sport, but no luck. They don't have a website either, that I know of. You could check your local PBS station's listing to see if they carry it.

M

paulchiu · May 2003

Saw a new CLK320 this morning in silver/tan. Man! Small is this thing. Too much like the C class coupes. As usual, see a fat guy driving it; with his head touching the roof.

I always wonder why people like to wrap a car around their bodies; do they feel safer this way?

jborden1 · May 2003

I love the BMW M5, my friend has one and they just put a new exhaust system on it and it sounds unbelievable! But I too cannot understand the new 5-series, its just ugly. My dad was going to get a 540 but with this new design, he is going to keep his gs430 a little longer.

chavis10 · May 2003

I agree with you borden, the new 5 took a couple steps in the wrong direction. BMW is really losing it. The current 5 series to me is still one of the best looking cars on the market. What a shame.
I don't like the look of the CLK either. It looks to soft to me.

merc1 · May 2003

Well thats three German stylistic misses in the recent times:

2002 7-Series
2003 CLK
2004 5-Series

I never, ever thought this would happen, but Mercedes has actually made a car whose looks I'm not crazy about, the CLK! BMW better cool it with this crap they're doing. Thank god the 3-series doesn't go under the knife until 2005.

M

chavis10 · May 2003

I don't get it, most of MB models seem to be looking better. What happended with the CLK? The pillar less roof doesn't work on a smaller car. The new E looks way better than the old one and even the freshened S and CL look better. The clear lenses for the lights on the S made a world of difference. And those quad pipes on the AMG models look great. The rims are hot too. I dont even need to comment on the CL, the best looking car money can buy.

merc1 · May 2003

Well they tried to create a smaller version of the CL and it didn't work. Going pillarless was a brilliant idea, but the whole car just didn't come off right. I've figured out whats wrong with the CLK, it slopes down way too low from the a-pillar foward, and it's doors tuck too far under the mirrors at the a-pillar. The car needs higher more definitive lines from the side from the a-pillar foward. Mercedes-Benz needs to hire Bruno Sacco back. I just hope they get the CLE right next year.

M

chavis10 · May 2003

You know, that's exactly right. I checked out the picture and completely agree. One question, what's the "CLE???"

paulchiu · May 2003

The latest R&T has the E55 on top, then Audi, next M5, with the Jag finishing in the familiar rear position.

So, for those of you locked on the E55, buy the issue. Nice photos; as usual.

merc1 · May 2003

Thats two wins for the E55. Yes!

chavis10,

The CLE is a 4-door coupe based on the E-Class. It will be shown in concept form at Frankfurt this fall. It's supposed to slot in between the E and S-Classes. It's rumored to be a stunning looking car.

M

paulchiu · May 2003

Yes, don't confuse the CLE with the CLIE from Sony!

merc1 · May 2003

The E55 starts at $76,200. Nicely done around 81K or so.

M

paulchiu · May 2003

Must be the strong Euro currency! It was supposed to be 72 a few months ago....

merc1 · May 2003

Well you know those were just estimates you can't ever really go by those, especially when talking about a 70k+ car.

M

paulchiu · May 2003

Just went to the MB site. With 30K down and 4% financing for 36 months. I can pay less (per month) than my current 2001 S500 lease. $1379 vs $1428. Not too bad.

I was confused about the rear and side blinds offered in both the factory and accessories sections; at different prices too. What! no wood steering wheel option ?

Lastly, does the bi-color seats work with this car? Especially for a middle aged man with kid?

paulchiu · May 2003

$5K seems to be the typical markup now on the E55, over the MSRP. Deliveries in 5 weeks here in the New York area.

aki86 · May 2003

I think the two-tone seats would work. I like how they look, especially the blue/black. I'm big on style and I usually like to go with something that's not too ordinary, like the seats.

mitris · May 2003

I was going to buy a new 330Xi but then saw a used M5 that they have on the lot. I believe it's a 2001 with about 30k on it. (I know there's probably a big difference between a 00,01,02 I'm just pretty sure it's an 01 but but not 100%) They are asking 57K for it...I'm just starting my research but is there anything that anyone would say off the top that should steer me away from this. I'm almost afraid to drive it, which I'm thinking about doing today, because I know that I'm going to love it...

pablo_l · May 2003

I agree with the gentleman that stated the CL is MB's best car right now. Mind you, from a US perspective I think the CL500 is plenty, and anything above it superfluous, for no amount of horsepower will make this an uncivilized car. Get a Viper if that's what you're after. That's one aspect of the new line of super-sedans I don't quite get: they're so domesticated that they feel somewhat soft. I recently drove a new E55 in Germany, and while very impressed, it just feels, well, soft. I truly struggle to feel the difference between the E55 and the E500, because the performance is so seamless and computer controlled. I expect the same thing to happen to the M5, unfortunately, since BMW has screwed up with every single follow-up to their stellar 2-year-ago line-up. BMW is bloating up their cars, they are getting bigger and softer, and it simply reduces the character. Major identity crisis. At least softness was always a MB character trait.

Personally, some might remember I used to post to this forum as a Jag XKR owner. I just noticed the car was projecting the wrong image given the tech downturn, and felt uncomfortable with it. Trading down has been a big trend around me... Think about such issues when you fork down the money for these cars. Now my ostentatiousness is reduced to weekends, as I got myself an early 90s Rolls Corniche for show, and drive a $40k car or the motorccycle on an everyday basis to tone down the image. I do miss the XJR regularly, though. I do absolutely not like the new Jag XJR - the extra dimensions and especially the extra height have eliminated the appeal it used to have for me. The British quirkiness is gone. As to the others, the M5 still strikes me as not designed for California roads and driving patterns, the MB product line leaves me thinking that the CL500 and the E500 are the nicest choices (I find the new SL horrible looking, cheapened by 70s muscle car overstyled elements), the Audi product line leaves me also looking towards the lesser engined product options, and the day I have to not give a damn about the image I project in a professional environment, I'd get myself the new Bentley Continental GT. Or a used classic Continental. Increasingly, I am left feeling that the somewhat older cars have far more character than the over-computerized newer products. A horrible thing to say given the fact I do work in high tech, but hey...

aki86 · May 2003

I don't think going for a CL55 of 600 would be overkill. It simply depends on what you want. If you want pure performance, then yes, a viper would be better. If you want performance, style, and comfort, a CL600 might be just what someone is looking for.

I think the new SL is beautiful, but that's just my opinion and I can't criticize you for yours.

merc1 · May 2003

Interesting...While I don't think the SL is horrible looking I do think it could stand to be cleaned up some, especially it's sides. On a different note I took my weekly stroll on the MB lot, and they have a Tectite Grey/Charcoal CL55 sitting out front. WOW!

M

pablo_l · May 2003

The thing is that the "higher" variants don't *feel* like they are that much more powerful given computer controls. I am the last one to say irrationality is not a factor, don' get me wrong, and everybody suit him/herself and have fun with their choice. I have a good acquaintance with the CL600, and I'd personally pick the CL500 every time - the engine note just seems more special, the 12-cyl sounds just like a smooth little BMW 6-pot. Never mind that my friend's CL600 has an abysmal reliability record, utterly plagued my electrical system gremlins (to the point where I don't drive with him anywhere in his car these days, because we have been stranded 3 times already, and I was late for one important business appointment because of that, which I loathe).

As to the new SL - too many lines and creases, and the opening on the side are just wannabe classic Gullwing without the class, I think. Overdesigned. I prefer MBs with more subdued and clinical lines, that's where their historical elegance comes from. There's not one single MB classic that has as many "character lines" as the SL has.

I saw some picture about Audi's oncoming "shield grille", and fear that here's another German brand that's going badly astray with its design direction. I just don't see where the problem with continuity is - if a shape works, keep it, that's what makes a classic in the end. This "got to make the new car look different from the old" is the type of mentality that cheapens designs, because it's blatantly designed to get people to buy the newest one asap, and embarass them about being seen in the old model. That does not work with luxury brands - identity and continuity are the traditional key, and I am surprised to see the German car brands have forgotten it. They are opening the window of opportunity for competitors, and it will hurt them. Wait and see.

merc1 · May 2003

"As to the new SL - too many lines and creases, and the opening on the side are just wannabe
classic Gullwing without the class, I think. Overdesigned. I prefer MBs with more subdued and
clinical lines, that's where their historical elegance comes from. There's not one single MB classic that has as many "character lines" as the SL has. "

Exactly. I couldn't agree more. Every other current Mercedes is much "cleaner" in design.

M

paulchiu · May 2003

Don't like 'soft' Pablo, go try out the Cayenne Turbo. While no 4.5s from 0-60 like the E55; it'll do 5.6 from 0-62, and it is much more menancing! Imagine driving one on the Autobahn at 150mph+ and getting behind a regular super-car.

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