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Comments
Floridian, the way i see it.
with whoever posted that
Saturn's "No Haggle"
prices are fair. They seem
inflated to me which is
one of the reasons I am a
little skeptical about
buying a Saturn. I'd like
to know what others think
on this subject. Thanks.
Floridian
I have a 1998 SC2. A crude, poorly made (interior)vehicle. Reliable, yes but a poor value compared to almost everything else out there, even the Korean offerings are better at this point in time in my opinion. I know saturnboy will come off the wall at this one but take a look at them and I think you'll agree. You'll get a lot more car for your money. Even a Cavalier/Sunfire is a better buy considering what you can actually get one out the door for. Cav currently has a nice cash back offer as well. Check it out.
Floridian, theway I see it.
I think the good values for saturn are for the base(er) cars. For the upper 13K you're going to pay for a base sl2 with a few options, what else are you going to get with similar performance, safety, and reliability? If you're going to say saturn is poor value, let's actually hear comparisons with other cars. Until then, it's hot air.
dave
Conclusion: No-haggle turned into a little negotiation that was fairly pleasant and resulted in a win-win result.
Analysis: Apparently, the base price is not negotiable. However, it seems to me that the options can be negotiated. Options are also discounted at car-buying sites like carOrder.com.
the car just has been a bore to drive too, no fun. people prefer cars for different reasons and there is no accounting for what they like. a neighbor of mine had a fetish for Checker Cabs of all things. always drove cast off cab companies retired cabs, go figure. another guy here in town has 6(count 'em)Chevettes in his driveway. now that's really loyality!! maby saturnboy just has a fetish for the "wundercars" from Tennessee. sooner or later he'll see the light and move on to something designed in this century LOL. it's ok saturnboy we get a kick out of your rantings. keep them coming and i'll do my best from time to time to "rattle your cage"
Floridian, just my unbiased opinion
declining"
Focus - "Automobile of the year", "Ten Best"
Neon
Protege
Corolla / Prizm
Sentra
Elantra
Jetta
Golf
Cavalier
Contour/Mystique
Civic
Mirage
.....need I go on?
Only two things can help Saturn at this point. Drop your prices (or negotiate) and bring out a NEW line of cars.
Thanks ahead for any help!
reg: Yes, the small car market is declining. What does the fact that you can name a couple have do do with that? Sales on most of those are down too, except for the obvious cases of new models ( focus, protege, golf ). Do you have anything to actually contribute?
dave
overhead valve: The pistons turn the crankshaft, which turns a camshaft located close to it. The shaft moves rods which extend to the cylinder head and push rockers which close and open valves.
Overhead cam: the crankshaft turns a relatively long chain or belt ( chain on saturns ) which travels up to the cylinder head and turns a camshaft there, which directly opens and closes the valves.
Dual overhead cam is a refinement of overhead cam. In a single overhead cam, typically each cylinder has one valve each for exhaust and intake. In DOHC, it will have 2 of each, which allows the engine to breathe more easily.
in english:
Typically an overhead valve engine will allow you to squeeze a larger displacement engine into the same compartment, and overhead cam( especially DOHC ) will get more power for the same displacement, and allow the engine to rev higher and have a larger powerband. It depends on if you like the feel of a bigger lower-revving motor, or a smaller higher-revving one.
Saturn is different than most GM cars in that GM usually likes to use big overhead valve engines, but saturn uses a small(er) overhead cam motor. As an example, I had a rental grand am, which felt faster in the city, but also felt slower on the highway.
dave
Seriously, now Saturn fans, lets look at different buyer price points and determine just exactly why other makes/models are in each case better deals (based on what you can actually buy the car for cash, based of frequently advertised price points).....
12,500 cash out the door.
Ford Focus ZX3 vs. Saturn SC
-Ford
more comfortable and much larger and more stylish interior, better powertain, cutting edge style, far superior handling larger dealer network (more competitive shopping environment), awards won worldwide
-Saturn (if you can even buy a Saturn SC for 12,500)
plastic doors resist dings, free car washes
Chevy Cavalier vs. Saturn SL
Chevy- more room, nicer interior, larger car, abs standard, lots of dealers who will fight for your business
Saturn- OHC powertrain, plastic doors, free car washes
Neon vs. Saturn
-Neon more room, more power
14,000 sale price
Mazda Protege vs. Saturn SL1
-Mazda - superior powertrain, ride quality, styling, seat comfort
Saturn - plastic doors, car washes, don't have to look at the yucky 626 in the showfloor
Corolla / Prizm vs. SL1
-Toyota a reputation for dependability, product excellence and reliability (over decades) that is unmatched in the auto industry, cutting edge vvT powertrain
-Prizm can use GM dollars on essentially the same car as a corolla and save big bucks. No GM card rebates on Saturn.
-Saturn don't have to look at the icky Avalon on the Saturn sales floor
Contour vs. Saturn
Contour-much more substantial car, more room, better handling, more hp
Saturn-
15,000
Civic vs. Saturn
-Civic is an exmaple of superb quality in small car, superior powertrain, a little more space, contemporary style, holds value better
-Saturn maybe a few more features at this price point, plastic doors, car washes
17500
Jetta vs. Saturn
-Jetta one of the hippest style cars out there, German engineering, decent features, equal room
-Saturn, even Saturn dealers are better than VW dealers
-Contour v6 vs Saturn
-Contour leather and v6, maybe evn a moonroof at 17,500. More room, more substantial car.
-Saturn
Even if don't prefer cars like the Protege, Corolla, etc. you just cannot say the Saturn is a better car (quality and performance) than the Honda Civic. Absolutely no way. It can't even beat the civic on price.
And for an overall desirability the Focus is superior to the Saturn in so many ways.
And if you are just a GM fan the Prizm and Cavalier are each better options in their own ways.
Saturns are pretty reliable so you can't really knock them about it, although I would really challenge anyone who says their quality can equal that of a Civic or Corolla.
Saturn, while a decent car, I think is currently in a state of the market where there are just too many other more attractive options when considering any of price, room, performance, reliability, style.
regfootball: I agree with you on a couple of those, but the Saturn isn't a inferior as you are making it out to be. The 2000 model has been updated nicely and is pretty refined now. Go try one and see.
focus zx3 : not a bad car, but new and unproven, especally considering ford's history. Let'
s look at your "points"
*better looking: not to me, buddy.
*larger and better interior: better is is subjective, and if you look at the sc vs the focus in real interior space, it's not that different at all.
"far superior handling and powertrain": based on what exactly? You were wrong about this in the tuarus thread too. Look at a 12.9K sl2. Less HP and torque, bigger car, yet has better skidpad and 0-60. Who has better powertrain and handling now? What is the reliability and safety of the focus??
cavalier: Is ok, but the interior is not nicer(IMO) or bigger.. And I had to rent one for a few days recently, so I know what I'm talking about. Look at the edmunds size stats:
saturn/cavalier
Front Headroom: 39.3 in / 37.6 in.
Rear Headroom: 38 in / 36.6 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 53.9 in / 53.9 in.
Rear Shoulder Room: 53.1 in / 54.9 in.
Front Hip Room: 49.2 in / 50 in.
Rear Hip Room: 50.2 in / 49.5 in.
Front Leg Room: 42.5 in / 41.9 in.
Rear Leg Room: 32.8 in / 32.7 in.
Yep, that cavalier is totally cavernous compared to the saturn!!
neon: another car I had to rent for a few days.
http://www.edmunds.com/newcars/2000/saturn/sseries/sl2sedan.html
http://www.edmunds.com/newcars/2000/dodge/neon/highlinesedan.html
Yes, much much bigger, eh? Actually, the saturn is a hair larger. And the neon has a few more HP.. But has the same acceleration. As before, you like the smaller higher-revving motors.. EXCEPT when they are on a saturn.
protege: Again, you claim the better powertrain.. Without saying what you mean. Better in what way? Your styling complaint. Are you ever going to raise a real point? I personally don't care for how it looks.
corolla/civic: Decent cars, but you don't make any points for them, just say they are "better." At the same price point, they will not have as many features, not have the same acceleration or handling, and not have the same safety scores, which is one of the main reasons I got my car. This is all not to mention cost of service.
jetta: equal room, german engineering ( i.e. expensive to fix ) , and "hip." Whoop-e hold me back. Actually, I really like the golf, and would surely consider one if shopping in that price range, but not for your reasons. Just to let you know I'm not a 100% saturn fanatic.
contour v6: such a great, desirable car ford is cutting it. Didn't this whole thing start over saturn cutting production? What does it mean that ford axed this car?
Again, I'm not saying everyone in the saturn price range needs to get one. Just that your "view" is absurdly biased against saturn. For some reason, you have to post against them despite not having one, or really having a legitimate or major gripe against them as norbert has.
dave
Now I know the clusters have to be opened, which requires lowering the steering wheel, etc, per the manual. However, I will never again remove the top cover again, if I can help it. Namely, one of the plastic grips jutting out of it and holding it broke in spite of me doing it all by the book. Cannot afford to lose another one. Moral of the story: All that plastic is more vulnerable than we'd like to think.
BTW, Saturnboy, come back. Your zeal is needed.
Floridian, (alias the "DUD" !! What a hoot!!
Did you not read into your car, or did the dealer not explain to you that your car could be returned within 30 days if not completely satisfied? Just wondering...
I did something similar myself though. I was putting new speakers on the car and on the passenger side door I flat broke the passenger handle. It still kind of works, but it's really flaky and rattles while you drive. Guess I have to go swallow my pride and have the saturn boys fix it.
Hey, about your trunk floor sagging.. Is the center post of the spare holding it up properly? Did that fall down or get lost? Just a thought.
dave
Floridian
that DUD Floridian, gufaw,gufaw, chuckle, chuckle!!
dave
In case you didn't know: Be super-careful removing the dashboard cover. First, remove the two sides with some 3 clips each, prying them from the cabin-end. On the main cover, avoid any twisting motion before all of the cabin-side clips have disengaged. Use a good non-marring screwdriver to pry it free of the dashboard.
On the general issue of rattles: I believe any rattles should be eliminated in order to know if something NEW is rattling, thus being able to examine each of the new rattles for their significance. But I can sympathize with people who do not get excited over them while the radio is blaring away ... It perhaps has something to do with one's outlook on what's important in life ...
Floridian, what do you mean by the plastic really sings? I'm in NY and have much larger temp swings in one day than florida and I can't recall any noises from the plastic panels.
Floridian
I'm a newbie, so don't slam me if I make
a faux pas.
I am looking at a 1996 Saturn today at 3PM.
I'd like some feedback on this car and its
price. Here's the scoop:
It's a 1996 Saturn SL1, 5-speed standard
transmission, 4-door, with 92,000 miles on
it. It has air conditioning. It's silver/
grey. That's all I know until I see it.
The guy says its book value is $7,275
and its loan value is $5,175 but he'd
sell it to me for $4,250. It sounds too
good to be true. What should I look for?
Who knows if this is a good deal or what?
I'd love some advice and feedback. I
checked Consumer Reports, and the 1996
Saturn is listed as one of their "Most
Reliable Used Cars" and Edmunds had a
pretty good review too.
I am less concerned about looks and
"comfort." I want a car that is reliable
and gets good mileage. I haven't got a
whole lot of money to spend, and this
sounds like a great deal. It's also
the very top of what I have to spend.
Comments?
Thanks!
Karin
dave
Saturn dealer is an hour and 15 min. away
is an issue, as is the fact that I can't
drive a standard very well. And other
people I have asked are very suspicious
of the low price tag. I plan to take it
to a local mechanic -- he can't get it on
the lift today, but he said he'd look
it over. Thanks again.
Karin
dave
mileage, options on the vehicle, how you think the interior looks ( worn to nearly new looking) especially the pedals( worn pedals and low mileage is fishy) how much tread on tires, how the engine sounds, all equipment works properly etc . Somebody here will run it through the pricing system and see how it comes out. 4250 seems like a low price even for upstate NY. Double checked your post and yopu gave the mileage of 96k average mileage would be around 60k so the seller is deducting for high mileage but not sure right now if they deducted right amount.
dave
one thing i did notice that i didnt notice when i was test driving is the squeak coming from the passanger side dash board, if i even put my hand on it while driving it stops, wondering if i could just put some foam or something in there, or something else, doesnt really matter the radio is always gonna be blaring so i wont hear it 90% of the time...i've seen that some of you guys have noticed this...so i guess it's a common thing and not really something to be worried about when the car gets up in the higher mileage...
things that were a plus, the color the design, gas mileage doesnt seem too bad, considering im coming from an 89 buick regal...reliablilty seems real good, previous owners had oil changes transmission fluid changes often, well before scheduled maintenence due...they recently took it on a few decently sized over 1000 miles trips with no problems, i think that's a plus too...
lemme know whatcha think...
If you want to talk "cult" I predict that the Ford Focus will rise to that level if for no other reason than it's quirky styling. Aside from the styling tho it represents a quantum leap in value and technonlgy,compared to Saturn. Saturn has lost the "ballgame" by resting on their laurels, depending on this "warm and cozy" we love you hype. At this stage of the game they really are not much more than what a Cavalier and Sunfire have to offer.
Saturnboy just ran out of stuff to say. How many times can you harp on the virtues of plastic bodywork,good resale(questionable also)and low maintenance (also questionable if you follow factory polocy)I do miss his rantings tho. He can come back anytime and welcome. Could be he finally has gotten some new wheels and feels guilty for not honoring the "Shrine of Saturn" anymore?
Come on Saturnboy, we know you are out there "lurking" around. put on your "tough skin" and join the fray once more,We won't bite you.
Floridian
dave
I say get real and go out and make some real friends!