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Comments
started backpedalling when I went back to see
him again the next day -- so I was really
nervous. He said his mechanic saw it as
a valve cover leak, and he said he took it
to a local dealer (chevys) and their
mechanic didn't find a head gasket leak
either. So, he said, he'd get with *my*
mechanic and see what was the story. Well,
I checked back with my mechanic and he'd
not heard from the dealer. So, I have
left things on hold while I work on some
loan issues. The mechanic is someone I
trust, and he has no vested interest in
me buying this vehicle or not. He did
say it would be a great deal if, in fact,
the dealer fixed the loose front bumper
and the head gasket. Well, I only have
so much to spend, and I am going with
caution. I doubt I can find another
Saturn for a price I cn afford. :-(
Thanks again, everyone!
Karin at Wells
dave
-seats are German-like: hard with lots of side bolstering, uncomfortable on long trips
-only one cupholder with ashtray in place
-while radio is good it has confusing controls and the controls for our A/C is cheap
-materials are GM-cheap, but reliability and fit and finish is good for an American econobox
-trunk not the best in the world
-rear seat is not a nice place to be
-high noise levels from wind, engine, and tires; but, hey, last car was Nissan
-styling sharp in front but bland in rear, and Cd is a below-average 0.34
These may seem like a lot of complaints, but just make sure to buy the much better 2000 S-Series and the great L-Series.
Indeed, Saturn IS a different kind of company. I have had a lot of headaches with my 95 SL2 and did meet some incompetence at the dealer - but overall, I was always treated with respect and warmth. (except on two occasions - but that was sorted out OK)
Contrast that with Mitsubishi, Lexus, and some Nissan dealerships who think they are the boss and powerhouse of knowledge about everything in life and make you feel like an intruder. (Note: this is my experience - and for you legal types - I could be totally wrong and admit it up front)
This is a direct transcription of a "statement of facts" as printed by saturn of KC. Typing errors are mine. I am merely
copying information they are already disseminating.
-----begin poor transcription----
4/22/97 Vehicle was purchased from Saturn of Blue Springs
7/23/97 1st oil change was performed at Saturn of Blue Springs, miles 4077,
change was complimentary
**/**/** Customer Installed sterio system at approximately this time. System included multiple amplifiers, in-dash CD, separate equalizer, upgrade speakers, and sub-woofer type unit in trunk of vehicle. Unit is wired directly to positive battery cable and other wiring is under dash
fuse box.
6/18/98 2nd service by saturn of blue springs performed, 6K recommended,
real miles, 14825.
**/**/** At some undetermined time, vehicle was involved in an accident.
Full extent of damage unknown to saturn of KC. Repairs done at
non-saturn
facility.
4/23/99 3rd service by saturn, car towed into saturn on Olathe, car died while
driving, miles 27544, found lose battery cable, after market battery bolt.
7/3/99 4th service by saturn of KC. miles 31336 found blown fuse on remote
control entry module, also repaired power window regulator. Customer also
complained of ABS light coming on, which would be consistent with vehicle
losing electrical power.
8/16/99 5th service by saturn. Customer drove to saturn of KC, miles 32949, said
car would not start on previous friday, performed bulletin correction to ignition cylinder,
test drove for approx. 137 miles. Complaint did not re-occur.
9/1/99 Customer drove to saturn of KC, miles 34491, said car was intermittently
losing power on rough roads. On 09/9/99 saturn of KC provided Mr Wright
with alternate transportation, 1997 nissan sentra. Customer's car still has stall
code in computer, saturn of KC was instructed by Saturn corp to run redundant
ground to the fuel pump, and test drove the car for 227 miles. problem did not
re-occur. The redundant ground was left in place ( concern was that wiring
modifications might have affected ground to fuel pump ). Customer picked up car,
returned 364 miles later, stating car had died 5 additional times. Saturn of KC
drove the car an additional 121 miles, after which it did die for the service manager.
Saturn of KC disconnected the after market sterio, and drove 260 miles with no problems.
Saturn sent a field engineer to insect the vehicle. Field engineer could not locate a
definite cause for the problem.
**/**/** Saturn corp. contacted Mr. Wright on or shortly after 10/1/99, and began
discussions regarding possible re-purchase of vehicle.
10/7/99 saturn of KC requested return of loaner vehicle. Customer returned vehicle as
requested.
It is the understanding of saturn of KC that Saturn Corp has offered to Mr Wright to
repurchase his vehicle. Complete terms are known only to Mr Wright and Saturn.
It is the understanding od Saturn of KC that Mr. Wright has decided not to accept
this offer.
As has been the case from the start, Saturn of Kansas City and our area stores
hope that Mr. Wright and saturn corp can reach an equitable solution in the matter.
----end poor transcription----
I wanted to second norbert, i've used 4 different saturn dealers:
countryside,il
waukesha,wi
milwaulee,wi
albuquerque,nm
They were all good, with the creme de creme being countryside, IL. Fabulous service, cheap prices, and open until midnight. The service was light years ahead of my saab dealer, and that car costs more than twice as much. They (naughty saab dealer) quoted us $200(!!!) to fix a broken foglight lens, if you can believe that. The albuquerque dealer is close in service and prices, but is only open 9-5, and doesn't do much on weekends. I now do the regular service myself, but I should go soon, though, just to have a general lookover, and to repair some wounds i've inflicted.
neways, good to see you back.
dave
What concerned me though were the many owner experiences and complaints about Saturn's reliablitly and the complete incompetence and lack of respect that owners experienced by saturn service departments and dealerships.
Believe me, I am not trying to bash the whole company here, but many of these are similiar to the nightmare that I was put through by a local Saturn dealer, Saturn of Mt Laurel in NJ.
I think that I may have posted my story here before but, in a nutshell, I bought a used car from them (a Ford) that was supposed be covered under a powertrain warranty for the first 3000 miles. Not long after I took delivery, it started running rough, burning oil, puffing blue smoke etc. I presented my complaints and returned the car to the dealer at least 2 or 3 times a week and all I ever got was doubletalk and sometimes ignored. The service dept and the used car manager passed the buck back and forth. Service dept said the used car manager had to make the decision about honoring warranty work. But the used car manager said he knew nothing about cars (the salesman also said he knew nothing about cars too) and I had to take it up with the service dept.
The used car manager was always rude and fast talking to me except for one time when he assured me that I would not be left hanging because "that is not the Saturn way." Until of course, after 3 months of this the warranty ran out and then he suddenly claimed that he couldn't remember me telling him about all these problems.
At one point Saturn told me that they could not diagnose the car because it was a Ford. So I took the car to my own mechanic who gave me a written explantion of all the problems. When I returned to the Saturn dealer they told me that my own mehanics findings were completley irrelevant because he was not a Saturn dealer. As I said nothing but doubletalk.
It was a complete scam.
I realize that this may be one bad dealer in a network of good dealers. The problem is that there are only 3 Saturn dealerships in South Jersey and all are owned by the same parent company, Holman Enterprizes.
So far am pleased with my 99 SL2 and service from Saturn of Binghamton. Now have 23k+ miles and they replaced a broken exterior rear door panel. Now it has developed stress cracks in the outlet pipe of the long thin muffler beneath the car. Will let you all know how it gets resolved.
dave
dave
Also about post #222 the 93 sl2 overheating it also sounds like the fan control is not operating properly. My 99 sl2 fan cycles on long before the temperature gauge reaches the red portion in stop and go city driving.
Sounds to me like they are asking for trouble. I think they say that with synthetic you only have to change every 6k but I use Mobil 1 in my Olds and still religiously change it ever 3,000 miles
dave
Must be something better about synthetic vs the non synthetic oil.
When I called the Saturn dealership to ask about the cost of a valve job, the repair dept. told me that the labor would cost $1,000.00. When I asked about the parts, he told me he would have to switch me to the parts dept. What? Am I expected to know every gasket, fitting, etc. that goes into a Saturn valve job? Am I to believe he can't obtain that, or doesn't have any experience whatsoever in Saturn valve jobs? I've been to the dealership, and the parts dept is right there next to service.
My non-Saturn mechanic said that I should trade the car in, not rebuild it, because the rest of the car is not that sound. Unfortunately, the car now won't start, so I'll have to do the rebuild.
Has anyone out there had a Saturn rebuild? Should I have the timing chain replaced also. My
feeling, based upon this experience, is that Saturn had better keep selling the warm-fuzzy "better family than the one you've got" line, because the cars sure aren't a selling point.
However, 127,000 miles is very high mileage and getting thus far with out major problems is considered to be very good. Far above the average. I think that all cars go down hill after you reach 100k, some choose to keep their cars and put money in, and they will, and others choose to sell the problems to someone else and enter the new car market once more. Personally I would choose option number 2. Good luck tsage
April 25, 2000 - Saturn Corporation announced
today that it has received more than $1.5 billion
from parent General Motors to aggressively grow
their brand with new products, new styling, and
upgraded manufacturing facilities. Saturn will use
GM's capital investment and worldwide component
relationships to bring an expanded portfolio of
larger, innovative vehicles to market faster.
Saturn’s plan calls for the potential of four new
products over the next four years, with more
expressive styling and customer-attentive vehicle
flexibility.
Future spring Hill vehicles include the 2002
all-wheel drive SUV, the next-generation coupe, the
next-generation sedan, and a fourth, unspecified
vehicle. Trudell reportedly said that the fourth
vehicle will use a high-tech V-6 engine developed
by Japan's No. 2 automaker, Honda. Using the Honda
engine will allow GM to bring the new vehicle to
market quicker than it could have normally been
able to, she said.
Reuters News reported that Wesley Brown, an
analyst at industry consultant Nextrend, said it
would likely be a nontraditional, lifestyle pickup
truck. "It will be a new interpretation of what a
pickup can be, something that plays more to one's
lifestyle and attitudes rather than its utility,"
he said. As for the SUV, Brown described it as a
crossover vehicle that melds minivan utility with
SUV looks. The SUV will be powered by both a GM V6
and Saturn's current L-Series 2.2l 4-cly engine.
Saturn Chairman and President Cynthia Trudell said
the new GM investment signals strong support from
the world's No. 1 automaker for its 11-year-old
import-fighting division.
While Saturn has set standards for customer
service and has earned high marks for its no-haggle
sales strategy, critics point out that it has
struggled to sustain sales in the sluggish small
car market. GM has been criticised for starving
Saturn of new products, causing it to miss out on
the light truck boom of the 1990s.
"Definitely, the investment that General Motors is
willing to put into the Saturn brand is a vote of
confidence that Saturn in the long-term has high
equity for General Motors," Trudell said. The
latest funds bring GM's total investment in Saturn
to $6.5 billion, she said.
"Saturn has established tremendous equity in its
first ten years, and General Motors recognizes our
ability to attract and satisfy new customers," said
Cynthia Trudell, Saturn chairman and president.
"Four out of five S-Series buyers and 68 percent of
L-Series buyers tell us they would have bought or
leased a non-GM vehicle had Saturn not been
available. Further, satisfaction with the Saturn
retail experience remains among the highest in the
industry.
"Our challenge now is to keep up with customer
demand for a wider variety of vehicles," said
Trudell. "We intend to continue our commitment to
small cars, but position Saturn as more than a
small car company. And to sustain our viability as
a unique car company, we need to deliver these new
products to market more quickly."
The strategic moves announced today include:
GM has approved Saturn’s sport utility vehicle
(SUV), which will go into production later next
year at Saturn's Spring Hill, Tenn. facility. The
all-new SUV will join Saturn's redesigned small
cars and the new mid-size L-Series sedan and wagon
at Saturn retailers as a 2002 model.
GM is making a $1 billion capital investment in
Saturn’s Spring Hill manufacturing facility through
2002. This includes new equipment and tooling for
the SUV and next generation small cars, paint shop
refurbishment, and building modifications to allow
both cars and trucks to be built on a split line.
The investment lays the foundation for potential
additional products to come on stream.
Saturn’s SUV and next generation small cars will
include GM’s new global four-cylinder engine.
Spring Hill will be awarded GM’s third production
module for this engine, including strategic
machining and assembly. This represents an
additional $500 million investment for new
equipment and the construction of a 450,000 square
foot addition. The SUV also will be available with
a GM V6 engine.
One of Saturn’s yet undisclosed future models will
include a high-tech V6 engine from GM’s recent
agreement with Honda. This will shorten the time
frame for bringing this new product to market.
Saturn will seek additional GM powertrain
production business as it phases out the current
transmission family. Saturn’s future products will
include a combination of technically-advanced
transmissions, such as an Aisin/Warner transmission
and a continuously variable transmission (CVT),
among other options.
Saturn’s Sales, Service and Marketing (SSM)
organization will align more closely with GM’s
North American Vehicle Sales, Service and Marketing
(VSSM) team. This will allow both organizations to
explore synergies to reduce structural cost and
enable Saturn’s new product investment.
"Saturn’s retail approach and sales, service and
marketing team will remain intact," said Jill
Lajdziak, vice president of Saturn SSM. "But we
will share Saturn’s experience with GM, and glean
from our parent company’s centers of expertise in
areas transparent to the customer."
Ron Hankins, president of UAW Local 1853, said,
"The Saturn UAW team worked hard to earn GM’s
global four-cylinder engine business. We have a
commitment to producing high quality products, and
this decision provides job security for our UAW
members. It’s a win for GM, Saturn and the Spring
Hill community. We also look forward to building a
steady stream of new, competitive products for
Saturn."
Summarizing the investment and product plans,
Trudell said, "We’re gearing up with GM’s
commitment to grow the Saturn brand. Our S-Series
launch in the early 1990s was so successful that
Saturn became synonymous with small cars. We now
have a mid-size product to compete with the
imports, and we’ll soon start building awareness
for our upcoming SUV. And that’s just the
beginning.
"Overall, our strategy will expand Saturn, yet do
so in a way that improves our operational
performance and remains true to Saturn's core
values. Saturn was born from a commitment to
customer service and a partnership with our
retailers, UAW partners, team members and
suppliers," said Trudell. "These values will
continue as we strengthen our brand equity in
today's rapidly changing automotive marketplace."
As to saying that saturn=chevy because saturn got money from GM, well, that's just kind of silly. Saturn is more different than the other GM brands because:
1) Saturn has it's own designs; most of the other GM brands have essentially the same cars differentiated by bodywork and details. cavalier/sunfire, alero/grand am, intrigue/grand prix/buick regal, etc.
2) Saturn has negotiated a special contract with it's employees which had a high amount of incentives based on quality production, worker education, etc. Most union auto workers don't have this sort of contract.
3) Saturn places a special focus on sales satisfaction and service, rather than deep discounts, which is typical for other GM brands.
4) Unlike other GM brand which focus on a lot of doohickeys for not much money, the saturn focus on safety, economy after purchase, fuel economy, etc.
That's just off the top of my head, and it think it shows how saturn is different than the other GM brands. Now, there are a few disturbing similarities, in my opinion. There is the typical GM-ism of saving a few bucks here or there in silly places:
* Making all the rear brakes drums ( the used to be disk ). Drum brakes are inferior, and more costly to maintain.
* Not having folding side mirrors. This greatly increases the chances to damage this part.
* Taking away the performance switch on the automatic.
* The contract with the workers in the LS plant is much more a standard union contract than for the spring hill plant ehcih makes the S series.
Now, I have my own feelings about why some of this happened. I think saturn really did try to produce the car people needed ( economical, safe ) instead of what they wanted ( cheap, flashy ). Sales eventaully suffered as the industry moved on, So, they pinched pennies on some of the parts indicated above. This was a mistake, as the original point of saturn was to be an experiment to try things that might be carried over into the rest of GM. Instead I see the aforementioned cutting corners on the S series instead of upgrading it, and an L series, that, while quite nice, skimped on safety, had numerous rollout bugs, while having a lot of doohickeys per dollar. Then again, if this is what people want, are they foolish not to provide it? How many people look at safety, ownership costs, etc, before buying an economy car? Now they're going into the SUV and light "lifestyle" truck market, ie "vehicles for people with more money than sense."
All that being said, I still feel that saturn is very competitive in it's class with both the S and L series, but I don't feel that it's clearly best in category ( for me, anyways ), which I felt when I bought my car in '96. I recently helped some friends carshop for $10-15K cars, and while we of course looked at saturns, we also looked at the golf, focus, subaru, etc.
But it's not "just another GM division."
dave
Actually, I never understood the love affair with civics, personally. Perfectly fine car, but nothing on them stands out to me and says "get me" to me.
dave
RE: new Honda Civic. I hope they are putting the 127bhp engine as standard in everything, because the lower hp engine is just pathetic. BTW, have you seen the reliability info. for the 1999 Civics in Autopinion 2000 (a CAA publication)? Yikes!!!! A lot of disatisfied customers there boy.
Civic is just better.
Besides, it looks like Honda will start making motors for GM soon, so then you may see Saturns with Honda motors in them.
Sometimes machines break down and they shouldn't , but thats exactly what Saturns and every car is, a MACHINE. After having a trouble prone Nissan, and a aggravating Toyota, I decided never to keep a car past 100k again. Wheather its good at the time or not, when it reads 100,000 miles its history.
dave