Saturn S-Series

afk_x · December 2000

Floridan you are not too far from being accurate.

In the beginning Saturn was truly a different kind of car company, and a different kind of car. The company got off to a better start than GM ever imagined it would. The cars did extremely well for a small car safety wise, and their unique labor agreement as well as other invovative features such as polymore panels and other things created a loyal following. In 1994 Saturn was setting the world on fire. Since then it has been a slow steady spiral down. People wanted SUV's and Saturn needed new product. GM didnt have the money to invest in Saturn so they were left with their small car and fantastic sales process.

The good news for people who like Saturn is the new SUV has gotten extremely good reviews from the press and the redesigned S series looks to be a winner too. Sadly the SUV is a year away and the S two years.

I drive a 2000 SC2. It certainly isn't a screamer car but it is fairly nimble and IMO very fun to drive.

If you want to drive a real sleeper, go drive the V6 L-300. Its been clocked 0-60 at 7.2 seconds, and the midrange accelleration 40-70 really hauls.

floridian · December 2000

afk x: The Saturns are not really bad cars I guess. I just expected more and was very disappointed with the overall quality, at least on MY '98 SC2. Mine really does have very poor build quality, unneven door gaps, sloppy assembly on the interior parts and not wearing well as regards the upolstery ( the "mouse fir" fabric is almost threadbare in spots) with only 33K on the car to boot.Mechanically it has been fine, no problems there, nice engine etc.

For the "non gearhead" car buyer they are probably fine but I have grown to expect much more for my dollar and feel that for waht it cost, over $18K it does not deliver on total value.

I know this kind of critical stuff drives Saturboy nuts butthat is HIS problem not mine.

As to his zeees, mine are a lot longer than his and uniform in size. They were made by Ford, not GM. LOL. Merry Christmas Saturnboy we all still get a kick out of your rantings.

Floridian

boaz47 · December 2000

Many people have looked at and bought the Saturn just for the reason that it has some of the features people that work on their own cars want. I like the idea of a real timing chain, not a belt. Saturn offers free classes given by "Real" mechanics on how to service your Saturn. They even put the fluid replacement receptacle where you can reach them. I don't know how they expected me to put additional water or antifreeze in the overflow bottle of my Prelude. I don't want to hear I shouldn't have to add any because after a spirited run up a mountain road in 98 degree heat you can push the limit of a low water bottle. Fit and finish on "my" Saturn is pretty nice, but then I look at that before I bought it. Figured why wait till I got home to see if the doors and jams lined up. The transition from hood to door line and windshield post is spot on. Plus we as consumers have wondered why someone couldn't do something more than put a small piece of plastic or rubber on our doors to keep them from getting the dreaded car door dings. Did anyone listen? Ahhh yes they did. Saturn put ding resistant doors on their cars. As a gear head I do have one task I never like to do on my cars. Trace a short or break to a tail light or headlight. So you might say, it should never happen. It does however, it did on my Toyota Truck I used to have. and the back up lights on my Prelude still don't work. Remove two bolts and lift the dash of the Saturn and what do you see? Several small harness that can be replaced instead of a whole harness. Why pay 25 to 30 dollars for a small wire harness? Because in my area they charge $45.00 an hour just to look for a short or break. So besides great service from our dealer, Lexus is first Saturn is second. A great parts system, and ease of repair is there any other reason we as customers have bought into GM's "Hype"?
The dullest car I test drove first was a 2001 Toyota Corolla. It's base price was more and they offered me less for my trade. Besides who wants to hear how eager some guy is to make a sale or have to visit with his closer and finally his manager before you can make a deal. One that your neighbor bought cheaper in the next town or that you sister had to pay more for the next day? Even Car and driver in their review admitted it was a bit dull. Here is a quote from Edmunds review on the Toyota Corolla, "Cramped and uncomfortable interior, mushy suspension, non-descript styling, lousy stereo ergonomics." The Echo started out with a better price, but add any options and it was right there with the Saturn. Plus with four people in the car you might have to pull over for city busses. From Edmonds, "Cartoonish styling, dopey gauge placement, lousy handling, deceptively low base pricing." Honda Civic was nice and in the price range if I was willing to fight with the man in the plaid jacket over final cost. But the Honda was also a bit cramped in the back. Subaru thought their cars were worth a whole lot more than I did. By the way, I was very disappointed in the fit and finish of the Corolla and the Civic. The Subaru as pretty nice however. Just one persons opinion.

saturnboy · December 2000

I must say for the most part, the recent comments from floridian seemed genuine and honest, while not being over dramatized. I respect your point of view,and was delightfully surprised to hear some good comments coming from people.
Build Quality is a valid concern of many individuals interested in Saturn, and I can understand why some people are turned off due to semi uncomfortable seats,and such. I appreciate the polimier panels, ex, one time while driving I heard a loud thud, later only to find a new nick in the paint where apparently a rock had hit, if I had a honda Civic, that would have been a sizeable ding. Something everyone wants to avoid.

fredfred3 · December 2000

I dont think Saturn is really any more blander or duller than other subcompacts on the road today. I'm only 29 but most of today's car offerings just dont excite me. I think things were much better, say in the 60s, when you could walk into a dealership, order a car with the spefic options that you want and mate it to any engine/transmission that you wanted. I guess that is why I ended up buying a truck this time around. Ford was still offering such a system with the Ranger--at least last year anyway. For the most part buying a car today, is like getting a new appliance.

While I too like the idea of ding-resistant doors and a timing chain, I took floridian's post to mean that Saturn might seem like an atractive option for those who are not car enthusiast and are intimidated by the thought of purchasing and maintaining a car. I thought he was correct about that. True "gearheads" certainly would not need to take a class to learn how to change a tire or replace their oil. But that may certainly be comforting for someone who has never done it before.

The problem--and I am opening myself up to some more flames here--is that I think Saturn may take advantage of that situation. Perhaps that explains their arrogance with ridiculous answers like "a car is a machine" when somebody does have a problem.

I also agree that haggling over price is ridiculous and a major pain. However, currently there is no better system. I'm all for no haggle pricing--just make it a fair price. Thousands of dollars profit is an unreasoble markup on a subcompact car.

saturnboy · December 2000

Well, everyone has the right to thier own opinion, like fredfred,

"The problem--and I am opening myself up to some
more flames here--is that I think Saturn may take
advantage of that situation. Perhaps that explains
their arrogance with ridiculous answers like "a
car is a machine" when somebody does have a
problem."

Do you think that you may be biased for having a bad experience with Saturn in the past? And Correct me if Im wrong, but it wasn't a Saturn you had a problem with? Simply how you were treated. I feel that If I bought a Chysler from a Toyota Dealer and no doubt had problems with it down the line, Toyota would laugh, and say "should have bought a Toyota", doesn't make that treatment right, but I can understand the mentality.

saturnboy · December 2000

By the way, AFK X may have more specific data then I but Saturn does not make thousands of dollars in profit on compact cars as thought by one

". I'm all for no haggle
pricing--just make it a fair price. Thousands of
dollars profit is an unreasoble markup on a
subcompact car."

The 2001 Saturn SL compact is around 400-600 profit, which is below the industry average. See for yourself at edmunds new car prices or www.saturn.com

boaz47 · December 2000

I suppose I was surprised not to have to haggle with my Saturn Salesman. In some religions I believe they practice re-incarnation and bad animals can come back as lower life forms. Like Sharks can come back as car salesmen. Trucks are one of the last bastions in America where the customer can get just what he wants. All the Big Three offer just about whatever option you want. Toyota even makes a full sized Truck at last. Not much in options yet, one V-8 and that's about it. Oh and it is a half ton. I don't mind working on my own car. I don't feel chancing out a CV joint is a big deal. Rebuilding a tranny might put me off but not to R&R one.
The Classes to service your Saturn might not impress someone that already knows how. But the fact that they offer is a step in the right direction. A step many dealers could learn from. If more people were in tune with their cars maybe more people would take better care of them, don't you think? People have been complaining about how they are treated by dealers for years. Saturn and Lexus seem to listen.
All I want to point out is that once a dealer or manufacturer is willing to turn their head and show signs of paying attention to what we as customers are talking to them about they are worth giving a second look. I went to get a Subaru and they wanted to see just how much more money they could get out of me than they did the last guy. Didn't happen. Like I said. We have a choice, It is just that at this time only two offer honest up front sales people. I don't know if my Saturn is going to be the best or most dependable car I ever had. All I know is that a hole lot more people are happy with Saturn sales. In fact they were rated number one by JD Powers. The are rated as being better than half of the industry in dependability. And second only to Lexus in service. To me these reasons are more than GM hype, they are solid reasons. Maybe all the people that are happy with Saturn have a reason to be. From looking at the reports and studies and driving several other cars, I can see why. Hope your Ford gives you all the pleasure you expect.

regfootball · December 2000

I own a Chevy prizm (toyota) and its put together a heckof a lot better and runs much nicer than the saturns.

GM fans should go to the Chevy dealer to get the better quality small car rather than the Saturn donut store.

Had mine for 2 years now. Not one single problem and the thing is built so good I'd swear it'll go for 10 years without needing any attention.

norbert444 · December 2000

Ken, thanks for the story with the shot compression rings. Other folks here pointed to a lot of other possible causes (and solutions) but your story is really scary because we do not abuse the car at all. But it is possible and I will keep it in mind.

afk, when the edmunds had their car show here, I went and took some test rides in the (mid-size, was it?) class. I wanted to first test the LS Saturn and the attendant was clearly disparaging the car: "That is not a very good car. When you are done, I will recommend some good ones." He was right, the car was sluggish, had a large lean in the curves and was cheap looking throughout. He said the LS production has been cut back because Saturn can not sell them.

saturnboy · December 2000

Say goodbye to the prism, in the latest edition of autoweek, it has been confirmed that the Chevy prism which has scored lower in quality then it's sibling the Toyota Corrolla will be discontinued no later then the 2002 model year.

GM plans to replace it with another car from Pontiac which is unspecified at this date.

Boaz47,

I admit your enthusiasm is refreshing, but I can tell you from years of chatting here, very few people in here actually own Saturn's. Better off to talk with your local retailer and Saturn owners in the service department, I often come away feeling like I accomplished more by hearing Real Saturn owners , face to face, tell me they love their car and plan to buy another one. However, keep up the good work .

afk_x · December 2000

Couple of things.

1. Profit. I suppose we are talking about gross profit. This depends on the car. The base SL has just over 400 in profit. The SL-1 has about 800. The SL-2 has 1100. SC-2 has about 1300. L-100 about 800 in profit. L-200 about 1200. L-300 also about 1200.

I wish there were 2,000 in profit. There isn't.

2. L series. You must have driven the 4 cyl L series. Consider that the V6 Saturn has the same engine as the Cadilac Catera, but weighs a whole lot less, does 0-60 in just over 7 seconds, (Faster than the MAXIMA automatic) and has a mid range acceleration that flat out hauls, I doubt you drove the L-300.

That being said, compared to a Porsche 911 it is very boring and has a lot of lean in the corners.

floridian · December 2000

I mentioned in a earlier post that the Saturn SC2 was not a "turn on" for this self confessed "gear head". I "inherited" the thing as a company leased car, sort of, due to the termination of the gentleman who had been driving it. Try as I may I could not get any of the rest of the guys to take over the car. Even tho some were,at the time, driving some pretty clapped-out wheels such as some Sunfire/Cavaliers with close to 100K on them. They all said it "drove funny" was "uncomfortable". This from Sunfire/Cav. drivers ,go figure LOL !! So I palmed it off on my wife for the duration of the lease (9 months to go)she hates the car too and has ordered a new Honda Coupe.Gotta keep her happy,right ?

I think most, that are not "car guys" could care less about how a car is engineered, the design of the engine fit and finish etc. The for the most part look at the pretty paint, believe all the high buck TV promo ads etc and probably buy on price (read cheap)alone. if this is not the case how do we explain all the Escorts,Cavaliers, Sunfires, kias, Hyundais and yes, even Daewoos that cross the curb ?

saturnboy · December 2000

It's no secret that it's a gotta have what ever is the newest world today. People seem to care less and less about saftey- the PT cruiser proves that hands down which received a 2 star crash test rating and people luv it anyway.

People do not seem to care much for quality, since people are snaping up Hyundai's which score like 40 car makes below Saturn in JD Power and Associates in initial quality, www.jdpower.com Hyundai is not far behind from Daewoo's bankruptcy, according to news sources Hyundai has too much debt and is having serious trouble ridding it, if they go, everyone can kiss thier great warranty good bye as well as resale value.

Saturn still has the highest owner loyalty rate in the industry, which GM realized or they wouldn't have invested 1.5 BILLION in future product development, top executives at GM admit that Saturn is the best chance GM has at the future, and at drawing in younger buyers. To each his own.

regfootball · December 2000

so what, lower than the toyota...not by much i'm sure. Recount? What you failed to mention is whether the Prizm scored higher than the Saturn.

Or can you not say that.

I haven't seen the numbers for this year, but usually the Prizm and Corolla are right up in the top 10.

If GM fans are really wanting to buy a GM small car.....they at least owe it to themselves to get past some of the Saturn hype and at least test drive the Prizm and Saturn side by side and then make a decision on what's the better car.

GM spends only 5% as much money I'd bet promoting the Prizm as they do Saturns.

regfootball · December 2000

Compact Car segment

1. Toyota Corolla
2. Chevy Prizm
3. Mitsubishi Mirage

saturnboy · December 2000

Press RELEASE, Regarding new technology coming from Saturn/GM

Dec. 11, 2000

Saturn's variable transmission will start trend for GM

Lindsay Chappell
Automotive News

General Motors has bigger hopes for the European-built continuously variable transmission that will debut next year on the new Saturn Vue sport-utility.

GM plans to launch CVT production for other vehicles beginning in 2002. While the automaker is not saying how many models will get its new CVT technology, a GM source said it will at least go into the small Corsa line, which GM now builds around the world.

GM and Ford Motor Co. view the CVT as a way to increase fuel economy on vehicles with automatic transmissions and as a way to improve the ride of small-engine cars.

Both U.S. automakers are setting up factories that will deliver CVT systems to models around the world. A Ford joint venture with ZF Industries Inc. in Batavia, Ohio, will begin CVT production in 2002 to supply the Ford Mondeo and other vehicles.

Saturn Corp. will give the world its first peek at the GM technology. The move reflects Saturn's new mission inside GM.

The unit is increasingly becoming GM's global technology pioneer, putting to use components and concepts that are coming out of GM's far-flung world operations. Saturn said it will use technology from Honda, Fiat, Saab, Adam Opel and Aisin Seiki.

Starting this summer, Saturn will import CVTs from Adam Opel AG's plant in Sventgotthard, Hungary. The transmission will go into the automatic version of the new Vue with a 138-hp, 2.2-liter four-cylinder engine.

CVT works on the same principle as an automatic transmission. But rather than automatically changing from first to second, or second to third gear based on pre-determined gear ratios, the CVT uses a belt-and-pulley system that seamlessly changes gear ratios.

Saturn has not revealed how many Vues it expects to sell annually, except to say it wants to sell 50,000 its first year. The Corsa is a much higher-volume product.

A CVT-equipped vehicle generally offers a 5 percent to 10 percent improvement in fuel economy over the same vehicle equipped with an ordinary automatic transmission.

saturnboy · December 2000

As you so gracefully quoted,

"If GM fans are really wanting to buy a GM small
car.....they at least owe it to themselves to get
past some of the Saturn hype and at least test
drive the Prizm and Saturn side by side and then
make a decision on what's the better car."

Why should Saturn owners or GM owners allow someone else who has different beliefs to discourage us from buying the car that we chose for a wealth of personal reasons?

For your information, I have driven a 2000 Corolla CE with auto, and I have compared the Corolla to the Prism. I found the Prism to have cheap looking/feeling interior materials compared to the Corolla, and the chinsy Chevy bowtie emblem didn't go with the exterior of the car. The seats in the Prism seem to use a lesser quality fabric compared to Corolla. So, If I had to choose, I would buy the Corolla, which has better resale value then Prism.

The Prism isn't bad, However the Corolla offers more value to me. IF there wasn't Saturn that is. Im certainly not saying Saturn is perfect, because they aren't and no car/car company is. I am saying,that true Saturn owners will not be discouraged by others, and we realize the value of safety, low ownership costs, high service quality, etc.

In addition to the Saturn VUE SUV coming, new S Series in late 2002, and a pickup/sports car based on the soon to be defunct Camaro, We have more and more reasons to stay with the Saturn line, and I intend to.

regfootball · December 2000

the only thing i'm suggesting is that GM loyalists who may be drawn to Saturn only because its GM also ought to check out the Prizm.

No need to read into it more than you need to Saturnboy.

Saturnboy, howcome you don't drive an L-series?

fredfred3 · December 2000

Saturnboy, my "car is a machine" quote was not something that Saturn said to me....it is a response that they have given to many Saturn owners judging from the posts that can be found on the internet.

True, I did have problems with a used car purchsed through Saturn, followed by problems with the dealerhship. However this was not just any used car that had problems later "down the road." It was a car covered under an extended warranty which Saturn sold me. IF they don't want to stand behind non-Saturn make used cars, that is all well and good. But, in that case, they had ought to stop selling warranties for them.

As I recall, over in the LS forum, you yourself even claimed to be somewhat dissastified about your Saturn service as of late and you were even contemplating writing the company a letter about it. You also said in the same post that you were thinking about buying a Ford Ranger

ohiolady · December 2000

I bought a Saturn four years ago because I was impressed with the "Different Type of Car / Company" creed. The dealership was great and super-sweet to me until I started having problems with the car. My alternator went bad at about 23,000 miles and was replaced under warranty. After about 30,000 I seemed to be constantly adding oil and my saturn dealership said that was normal. I felt as if they were just dismissing what I had to say without really listening. Still, I figured that they knew what they were talking about and went on my way. Now that the car is no longer under warranty, my dealership informs me that the motor needs to be rebuilt. They say it is probably my fault for not maintaining the car properly. I changed the oil every 3,000 miles and had all the required maintainence done on schedule. I contacted Saturn and explained the situation. They also told me that "a car is a machine" and there was nothing they could or would do to help me. I feel angered and betrayed. I am in the market for a new car now. It wont be a Saturn.

saturnboy · December 2000

Reg

I do have an LS1 - now L200 in the family and I love it. The handling is superb, engine is quiet, and seems like a very solid car. I do not own one because at this point I have better things to put my $$ towards like mutual funds, stocks, etc, and prefer not to buy a midsize car since I have no need for one at this time.

Fredfred

I do not recall ever being "Seriously" disatisfied with my car or the service my retailer provides me. Granted, no retailer or car is perfect and things fluctuate from time to time, but over all I am pleased with it and do intend to aquire another S series in 4-6 months.

OhioLady

I am very sorry for your loss, it really shouldn't happen however Saturn makes no more lemons then any other american car company. Situations like yours as you claim, are exactly the reason why I lease cars, and because I can barely stand having a car for more then 3 years. You have a right to be angry, and betrayed for having Saturn supposedly treat you in such a manor as you stated.

AFK X said something along the lines that "Saturn owners have tremendous owner loyalty , and the one's who happened to get a bad Saturn often cry louder and longer because of the image Saturn has of high customer service. Definitly true.

fredfred3 · December 2000

Just to clarify the point, I never said that you were seriously dissastified with the service from your Saturn retailer. What I said was that, in the LS forum you appeared to be somewhat dissastified with your service and were contemplating writing a letter to Saturn about it. I am sure you must recall posting that. If not, it is in the LS forum archives.

Either way, I am glad that overall you are content with your service since that is what is important in the long run. It is also refreshing that you are responding in a much more sympathetic and civil manner to those such as ohiolady who do not share your enthusiasm.

saturnboy · December 2000

Fred

Well, that is why I put the seriously in quotes to signify the difference. Just wanted to clarify, and I also mentioned that things do fluctuate from time to time and things are not always perfect at my local retailer. However, they have come through for me in ways Im sure other dealers wouldn't and overall I am more then satisfied. I wish all Saturn owners could have the same results, but Saturn retailers vary depending on the owner.

In 1999 when Saturn's customer satisfaction scores slipped five spots to number 6, Saturn Corporate enacted a corporate buy back of un friendly Saturn retailers to continue with industry leading customer service, and on a personal note, in my area they are soon to start building a new kind of Saturn retail facility which includes an even more user friendly atmosphere, fire place near customer seating, internet hookups and a coffee bar, not to mention an automatic car wash. Im seriously Looking foward to it.

afk_x · December 2000

If you indeed have all the service reccords, you may be able to get Saturn Corp to help you. I am sorry to hear about your situation, but most of the time when Saturn engines go bad it is because they have not been maintained properly. I am not suggesting your was not taken care of well, only helping you understand why your Saturn dealership told you that.

I would suggest you go over to www.saturnfans.com and post your message there and ask them for suggestions. There are many helpful people there, and are experts in the subject matter.

Good luck!

ken1776 · December 2000

Well I just have to disagree with the statement that most Saturn engines go bad because of poor maintenance. I personally know of 2 that needed rebuilding, my wife's for one, and both were well maintained. Saturn's "excuse" for me was high mileage and Saturn records showing excessive mileage between oil changes. As for the mileage, I have discussed it before, 83 K is NOT a lot of miles. As for the oil, I change it myself every 3,000 miles, Saturn only sees the car for major service and repairs, more often the later. The other rebuild was for compression rings. This according to the Saturn service tech. is a problem with 95 and 96 Saturn's. All engines blow given enough abuse, but a well maintained engine by today's standards should be good for 150 K unless there are quality issues.

afk_x · December 2000

But the majority of problems still occur when a car doesn't have proper maintincence.
(oil changes)

The two cars you brought up are exceptions rather than the rule.

I owned a 86 Civic, the engine "drank" about 2 quarts of oil between changes. This was when the car was 8 years old, with 86K milage. It had its oil changed every 3000 miles.

fred_putty · December 2000

Howdy---

I'm about to purchase a '98 SL2 from the dealer, 63,000 miles. It seems lower on power than the 2000 I rented to check the model out, and has one minor rattle in the dash, but that's about all I can see in terms of flaws. Is there an easy way to see if the car has mechanical problems? Saturn owners seem to either think their car is God's gift to humanity or the blackest pit of hell, very little in between. I love the way the car handles, shifts, doesn't dent, etc. but the naysayers worry me: I accelerate and brake hard, hence the sport model, and I don't want to wind up with an oil-burning, rotor-warping nightmare.
---dennis.

afk_x · December 2000

Get the VIN number from the car and have a Saturn dealer run a universal history for the car. You will be able to see what kind of service was performed at any Saturn dealership. This will tell you if the car has been a problematic one.

If you are getting that SL2 for a good price (under 10K depending on equiptment) then you really can't go wrong. Its a lot of car for the money.

saturnboy · December 2000

You may want to update your profile since you claim to be shopping for a VW (costly car to own btw) One of the great things about Saturn is Low cost of ownership. Hence, www.intellichoice.com ratings. Also the 1998 Saturn S Series was one of the least problematic years, which has had lower problems then the VW Golf GTI, and NISSAN SENTRA SE in 1998. It scored in the top three in best initial quality by www.jdpower.com for 1998. As long as the price is good, and you have it checked by an authorized Saturn retailer, I say go for it.

ernietomjay · December 2000

We purchased our 1993 Saturn SL1 used with 63,000 miles from a dealer. We also purchased a 2 year warranty that included the drive train. After driving 2000 miles we checked the oil and found it to be low. This observation was repeatedly found every 800 to 1000 miles. We brought it back and the response was that it was still running and couldn't honor the warranty until the engine failed or we could prove that it was about to fail. A Saturn dealer told us that one of their customers was successful in hounding the company about fixing their oil burning engine (replacing the engine) but not without a real lot of time, aggravation and effort.
I can concur through our experience and others that I have talked with on the runarounds with the Saturn customer service people. We feel that they are put there to be nice but don't know anything beyond that and will not help with anything that is real.
But back to the oil problem;
the warranty ran out,
went to the Saturn dealer - was told the engine might have been improperly honed during manufacturing,
we still change the oil frequently,
we add oil every 700 miles (around town driving),
I looked into the one of the cylinders with a flashlight when I replaced the spark plugs and observed cross marks in the cylinder walls thereby concluding the oil consumption problem area,
we also did a "leak check" unlike a "compression check" which checks for any leaks in the engine cylinders and found that all cylinders were more leak that they should be but mostly worst from left to
right as you face the engine,
We now have 201,000 miles on the engine and it is still running great but we still need to check and add oil every week or two,
we can also say we have had very little else go wrong with the car - the dealer has always been fair - however,
We want a bigger car - the seats are too small!
There, I think I have said enough!!!
Anybody else have similar comments?

traveler · January 2001

At the very beginning, I said I would keep people posted on my saturn sl2 bought new in april 1999. So far I have 42578 miles on it. I am using mobil 1 and change the oil and filter at 12000 miles with a fliter and top off at 6000 miles. Have had two warranty repairs, exhaust that had stress cracks and a outer door panel. Only other problem is the replacement transmission filter works loose and have to retighten and top off with trans fluid. The trans fluid and filter were changed around 33000 miles. Will put new plugs and plug wires at next scheduled oil change and air filter. So far no other problems but will agree with others that the front seat cushions could be a bit longer. If you have long legs, it doesn't fully support them. Still plan on putting 150,000 miles on it before getting another vehicle. How the vehicles I will be choosing from compare to each other determines what I will replace the saturn with.

pcwyzguy · January 2001

It sounds like I'm having the same problem as you. I was wondering what dealer said there was a known problem with 95 & 96 Saturns. I am going through a major engine problem now and Saturn is blaming the problem on poor maintenance. If I could get the source of where the info came regarding the "known problem" with the 95 & 96 Saturns it would be very helpful to me in my fight for repair work being paid for by Saturn.

saturnboi21 · January 2001

Im not sure off hand but go to the saturnfans.com messege board. There are many knowledgeable people there regarding Saturn.

I can tell you that Saturn offers a hidden extended warranty on Saturn single cam engines up to 100,000 miles or 6 years if yours qualifies. Thier may be info at www.nhtsa.com however Saturnfans is my best bet

norbert444 · January 2001

Is there some similar warranty on '95 twin cams?
Thanks

saturnboi21 · January 2001

I may be wrong but I was only aware that the hidden extended warranty only covered the single cam engines.

j_coleman · January 2001

My wife has a '96 SL (SOHC) and we got a letter years ago from Saturn saying the engine could experience a cracked cylinder head or something like that. Haven't seen any symptoms yet but the engine only has about 50K miles.

legro13 · January 2001

I am going to get a new car. I am thinking about a Saturn SL2, a Honda Civic EX, or a Ford Focus ZTS. Any suggestions?

super3056 · January 2001

Luckily, I haven't had the engine problems discussed by many visitors. I too change my own oil every 3,000 miles, and have had to add 1/2-1 quart of oil beginning around 50,000 miles. My 94 SL-1 has 148,000 miles.

I purchased the car in part because it was plastic and would not (presumably) rust. The metal parts of the doors (painted black) are rusting on the inside and outside of the car. I've never had a car with rust around the inside of the windows. The top of the car is also rusting. So much for the plastic.

The car constantly needs brakes, although I drive very conservatively. I have to have the rotors and pads (4-wheel disc, ABS) replaced every 10-15k because the rotors become warped. We had a Nissan Sentra (1990) which we drove 55,000 miles without having to even have the brake pads replaced. Same with a Chevy Cavalier.

Many of the plastic pieces on the interior of the car are breaking including the armrest and various dashboard pieces.

I see why Saturn sales have consistently declined each year after 1993-94. They had the best marketing and nicest people in the dealership. If those people could chauffer me around, I'd say they had a great product. People figured out that the cars aren't so great. Unfortunately, GM missed the boat and provided a product with much hype but little relative quality and value compared to other small vehicles, especially the imports. It's too bad--they had a pretty good idea.

afk_x · January 2001

My co-worker has a 1992 Saturn SL2 and has never had a problem until recently. Other than the regular maintinece the car has needed nothing. His recent problem was a leaking gasket which cost 90 to repair. His car has 196K miles on it and it runs and looks fantastic.

For every Saturn owner with problems there a ton with none.

j_coleman · January 2001

Our Saturn has 50,000 miles with the original brake pads. (disc front, drum rear, no ABS)

saturnboi21 · January 2001

It may be prudent to mention that in Daniel's case, even he stated himself that

"My 94 SL-1 has 148,000 miles."

What does that tell any of you? Well, it says that while his car has had some problems it has lasted near 150,000 miles. He has started a crusade against Saturn in his mind, and has posted his "SOB" story on other well known Saturn sites. Somehow I fail to feel sorry for someone who's car has lasted near 150,000 miles and can't think of anything to complain about except plastic trim, etc.

For someone to think a car will be flawless at that mileage is clearly smoking something illegail. The easiest thing for him to do which anyone with an ape's intelligence could have figured out is simply get rid of your oh so problematic car, or deal with it. A smear campain from one person will do nothing other then prove that some cars are not perfect, doesn't prove anything with real data nor facts.

boaz47 · January 2001

I have noticed that it doesn't matter what car you have, how dependable the whole industry says it is or what owners say, someone hates it. Edmunds forums are no different. It doesn't matter if it is a Toyota, Honda, or Volvo someone was driving one home and it quit. Saturn was the biggest gainer last year for GM. So to say they have declined when they posted a 17.90% increase, seems more of an opinion than fact. Posting a gain a bit higher for Honda was Acura so I guess it has decreased also? Maybe new math puts a plus mark when they mean a minus? Volkswagen posted a smaller gain so I guess they must be in real trouble? Ok, I shouldn't make fun of someone who is having trouble with their car, I know it is stressful. Either there is one giant conspiracy by the Auto mags, consumer reports and JD Powers to try and fool people into believing Saturn's are pretty dependable or some people just have a black cloud over them. Better luck next time. By the way, my neighbor's 95 Saturn has spent the last five winters in the snow because not many of us have garages, and still no rusting doors or top, they don't salt where that person lives do they?

boaz47 · January 2001

I have to put brakes on my Prelude once a year. A new set of tires and I have replaced the Rotors once. Must be the Honda's fault. Couldn't be that I live 5000 feet up a mountain road from work, and have been known to apply liberal amounts of the go and the stop pedal when I drive? Naaaawww.

toml7 · February 2001

I too have had rust problems with my '96 SL2. I live in KY where the winters are relatively mild and little salt is used. The doors are rusting where the seal meets the door. The dealer recommended using baby oil on the seals to stop this problem. Also, the right rear door jam is rusting. If u open the door, look straight down there is a plastic plate. Remove this plate, it can be done with your fingers, and take a look. The rust is so bad that the metal is soft. I've had the rust repaired twice, while under warranty at the dealer recommended body shop, but nothing seems to stop it. I can clearly say that this is not an isolated occurrence since the loaner car from the dealer and several cars I checked in parking lots had the same problem.
Rapidly Rusting Away,
toml7

saturnboi21 · February 2001

It seems many either love or hate thier Saturns, I fortunatly have had excellent experiences with mine and intend to get another one to support the brand.

The other day on my way to college the traffic suddenly stopped and the girl driving behind me could not stop in time.

She slid at least 40 feet before hitting the rear of my Saturn SL with her Plymouth Vogager. All of her antifreeze leaked out and her bumper cracked due to the impact.

There was no visable damage to my car and after having it further evaluated for undercarrige damage, there was NONE< ZIPPO, ZILCH. I happen to call this ADVANTADGE SATURN. I now reccomend to anyone unsatisfied with thier Saturn to buy a Chrysler product, with thier horrid crash test scores, and traditionally bad reliability and resale we shall see who's laughing years from now .

brannone · February 2001

I've been reading through the post here and have become amazed at my own observation. Folks seem to be complaining about cars that have lasted for 100 to 150,000, even 200,000 miles.

I respect someone who babies a car long enough to get that kind of wear out of it, but can't comprehend that they should be surprised at recurring mechanical difficulties.

If a car is 99.9% perfect in construction 17 parts will fail in its operation. It's man made. It will fail.

My experience with Saturn leads me to believe that everybody there has their heart in the right spot. It's an old saw in customer service, but some folks just will not be pleased. Think I've run across a lot of them here.

How long do you keep a pair of sneakers? Geez.

brannone · February 2001

The rust problem in the door that was mentioned. That's not soft metal. Pull that tab on a 2 month old Saturn on the dealer's lot and you'll see rust there. That's unpainted galvanized steel that takes a heck of a long time to rust through. Like, 100 years. It presents no cosmetic or mechanical problems. Quit looking there!

Notice the exhaust on a Saturn? It rust. It's stainless steel. What gives? Simple, it's not designed to look pretty so they make out of low grade tempered stainless. Works great, won't rust through, but will oxidize eventually. Like in a hundred years.

toml7 · February 2001

Yes bran none the metal is soft.... even crunches when pressed on. In fact the paint has bubbled, yes there was paint there, and large hunks of busted metal can be lifted away with a finger nail.

saturnboi21 · February 2001

Guess that's one reason not to be a cheapskate and buy a new car at least every few years instead of 8 huh tom?

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