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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    I really did not take the money into consideration for the initial thoughts....I first wanted a change from Lexus and something that drives sportingly..Also the ability to carry a little more cargo than the convertable....The wife went and test drove the bmw, and I could tell she really wanted that car, so I was blindsided in that way..I should have started another paragraph in my above post as the cost of the bmw and what followed was really just a side thought... Tony ps The reason I further posted to Merc was I would have sold the clk to him at a more reasonable price...I like him He has passion
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    From a post in the "High-End European Luxury Marquees" forum by rl81.

    I know quite something about BMW, since I have done some work for them last year. What most people here don't realize is that they are not as big of a company as most people think they are. From a business standpoint, they have been close to max capacity for like the last 5 years or so. First the E46 and then the Mini took off way more than they could have hoped for. Yes, at this point the people are slapping themselves on the back. The 7 series that so many people hate sells better than the old one, so it's a step ahead from their point of view. I believe that after the face lift, they went into the right direction from a design and engineering standpoint.

    So people, just think that BMW just a couple years ago sold more than a million vehicles per year. Their capacity is almost at 100% despite Bangle-design. In some ways a little drop in sales makes their life easier, because they can get their capacity under control. Yes, BMW wants to expand, but expansion can only happen so fast, and don't forget that most of their production is in Germany. They only started full production in Leipzig this year, where they build the E90. You'll see them be more agressive in the future.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Merc1: You always try to twist other people's words to make your point. My main points, for the umpteenth time are as follows:

    1) MB is no longer the de facto, *must have* lux brand. You may not agree, but the market has spoken. The market has expanded (no one argues this) and the many more players, and the many more quality brands have relegated MB to the mainstream of lux car brands, not one perched at the top as in the past. May be it is inevitable that no one stays at the top for ever...But with MB's quality issues (real and perceived), corporate issues (SEC troubles, CEO departure, management shake-up, etc), and production issues (way too many variants, huge costs, low profit margins, etc), and the competition gaining in strength, all contribute to nudging MB to its downward trend (see sales numbers below)...

    2) BMW sales of the 7-series may have improved with the '02 release, but it has not gained an iota of market share in the lux space. Rather, the biggest gainer remains the Lexus LS which came out of nowhere to become the best selling lux sedan in the NA market.

    3) In the $50-80K price range, the LS ($55 - 70K) sells more than the S430 ($70 - 85K) and 745 ($68 - 80K). Feel free to add the E500/55 to the list, just to make the point. But here on this forum, we acknowledge that the LS competes more against the S than against the E.

    Designman provided BMW sales numbers, so I won't go into it here. But see MB numbers (YTD)

    Mercedes-Benz (YTD as of July '05)

    Car: 83,708 vs. 90,390, down 7 percent
    Truck: 14,926 vs. 12,778, up 18 percent
    TOTAL: 98,634 vs. 103,168, down 4 percent

    Source: http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0507/02/autos-234803.htm

    Do you see the trend here ? MB growing their SUV sales while car sales are declining ? I guess its not just Lexus that pads its sales with SUVs, right ?

    Lexus numbers (YTD, as of July '05)

    Car: 81,849 vs 79,630, up 3.9 percent
    Truck: 168,568 vs 163,292, up 4.4 percent
    TOTAL: 250,417 vs 242,922, up 3.1 percent

    Source: http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2005/08/02-1-sales.html

    Do these numbers mean anything ? Lexus is clearly outselling MB overall, and about equal in car sales, despite the zillions of MB variants. Like Len (ljflx) often states, too many variants are a weakness NOT a strength. Could be one chief reason MB is not profitable....
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "2) BMW sales of the 7-series may have improved with the '02 release, but it has not gained an iota of market share in the lux space. Rather, the biggest gainer remains the Lexus LS which came out of nowhere to become the best selling lux sedan in the NA market."

    According to the above post by rl81, they don't have to...as they are selling all they are making anyway and their factories are at capacity. An enviable situation for any manufacturer.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    they are selling all they are making anyway and their factories are at capacity. An enviable situation for any manufacturer.

    If they really are capacity constrained, it means that customers are paying more than they should for the cars. So...enviable in some ways for the company, but not so enviable for the customer.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Please give evidence of incentives on the brand new 3-Series, I didn't know there were any.

    You can get a new e90 for well under MSRP. That is not a sign of a hot car. When the new GS came out, you could not get one for under MSRP. I'll bet you that when the new IS twins come out, they'll sell for MSRP (+ in some markets like CA) and not a nickel less, at least through this calendar year.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    But they are not. BMW lease deals are quite cheap and have been for a long time now. A company struggling to manufacture cars to a market that can't wait to buy them can charge a huge premium over everyone else. So why don't we see this - because it's not happening. Even in April 2004 I could have had a 745LI lease at the same cost of a $12K lower priced Lexus, so could anyone else in NJ, and I'm sure in much of the US.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Thanks for the concise post. I'm not thrilled by the outcome (I couldn't imagine ever owning a Lexus) but clearly the trend is the trend.

    As a small side note, notice the non-proliferation of the Lexus dealerships. All are very profitable with no one canibalizing sales from someone one town over. This is the business model of a successful, self confident brand. Look at Caterpillar. They are increasingly giving dealers ever larger territories to better support the customers.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    1) MB is no longer the de facto, *must have* lux brand. You may not agree, but the market has spoken. The market has expanded (no one argues this) and the many more players, and the many more quality brands have relegated MB to the mainstream of lux car brands, not one perched at the top as in the past. May be it is inevitable that no one stays at the top for ever...But with MB's quality issues (real and perceived), corporate issues (SEC troubles, CEO departure, management shake-up, etc), and production issues (way too many variants, huge costs, low profit margins, etc), and the competition gaining in strength, all contribute to nudging MB to its downward trend (see sales numbers below)...

    Says who? You keep saying that the market has spoken, yet you ignore the proof in my previous post blows out that theory about Lexus selling more cars in your given price range of 50-80K. Secondly, you say that Mercedes isn't the "de facto, *must have* lux brand", yet I can't get an answer as to who is? It certainly isn't Lexus. Lexus doesn't have a single car (at least until the IS gets here) that causes a person who is even mildly into cars (not charts, surveys, earnings and who the CEO is) feel like they "must have" one. Lexus is the most boring brand in the luxury car field and certainly the most boring one of the 3 luxury Japanese brands. So if IYO Mercedes isn't the "de facto, *must have* lux brand" I'd sure like to know who is. BMW?

    The numbers prove that are just that, the "one perched at the top" for the high-end buyer. They were never the only choice or the most popular choice overall, just the most popular for the high-end buyer.

    Prestige and clout isn't measured alone by sales numbers either. Lexus doesn't even have a performance orientated car yet and nothing with anything larger than a V8, so how anyone could think they're on the same plane with MB/BMW in desirability is beyond me. All they have is sedans and suvs and a coupe that drives like a sedan. Mercedes has cars that comparable with Acura/Lexus/Infiniti at the bottom/mid level and at the very least comparable to Bentleys/Ferraris at the top end. That is something Lexus can only dream about. You don't see anyone mentioning Lexus or comparing them to anything but other mainstream brands. They aren't nearly on the same level of desirability to people who know cars as MB is. Lexus is the ultimate consumer brand. Which focuses on how nice the dealership is, reliability surveys, and what type of loaner car is given out.

    All that irrelevant stuff about CEOs and what not doesn't enter the mind of most people when they see a car driving down the road, and to suggest that it does is really realistic at all. FYI: Mercedes was always one of the mainstream luxury brand every since the late 70s' or early 80s' when they started offering more and more choices. They haven't been "up there" with the likes of Bentley and such since the , 1920s, 1930's or 1950's. Lexus has nothing to do with this so again I don't see what your point is here.

    3) In the $50-80K price range, the LS ($55 - 70K) sells more than the S430 ($70 - 85K) and 745 ($68 - 80K). Feel free to add the E500/55 to the list, just to make the point. But here on this forum, we acknowledge that the LS competes more against the S than against the E.

    What does that have to do with anything? You're using one example of one car here, not the total sales numbers of all Lexus and MB models that sell between your original price spread of 50-80K. You stated that Lexus sells more cars in the 50-80K bracket than "all the others" and they simply don't when it comes to Mercedes. The E-Class is a 50K car from the start the GS isn't and you can't count the GS300, only the much slower selling GS430. The LS430 might outsell the S430, but the E-Class crushes the GS and that still puts Mercedes in the lead in 50-80K sales. Check the numbers in my previous post if you don't believe me.

    Do these numbers mean anything ? Lexus is clearly outselling MB overall, and about equal in car sales, despite the zillions of MB variants. Like Len (ljflx) often states, too many variants are a weakness NOT a strength. Could be one chief reason MB is not profitable....

    No they don't because you originally stated that Lexus sells more cars in a certain price range than MB. Now you're spun it around to say that Lexus outsells Mercedes overall....well...hello we all knew that. You changed your position mid-stream because original statement about Lexus selling more cars from 50-80K than Mercedes isn't provable. Thats only "twisting" I see here. You also stated that Mercedes is no longer the car of choice for the high-end buyers, which is where you came up with that 50-80K price bracket, which I really think is short by 20K on the top end. Then I gave you the numbers that proved Mercedes is still the #1 choice for the high-end buyer, even using your price bracket, not the actual one that should be up to 100K. Nevertheless I stand by my earlier post that disproves that Lexus sells more cars between 50-80K than Mercedes. Now if you have different numbers, and not for just one car, then by all means I'd love to see them. This is the only thing you stated I took issue with. No one here ever debated that Lexus outsells Mercedes. Not once.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Thanks for the concise post. I'm not thrilled by the outcome (I couldn't imagine ever owning a Lexus) but clearly the trend is the trend.

    The trend is that Lexus has finally decided to update their previous sales duds, the IS and GS so yeah they're going to finally start selling more cars than SUVS, at least in theory they should. While Mercedes has a 7 year old S-Class, and a middle aged C-Class along with an E-Class that is heading towards middle age, though the E is still a sales leader. Yet this is seen as some negative "trend" at MB, but when the GS didn't even sell 10K units last year, this was seen as normal.

    This is why I think it is so pointless to looks at the sales from a few months, as opposed to a whole year and draw all these conclusions, when these conclusions are fleeting at best. It is the exact same thing every year it seems. MB and BMW are having some type or "crisis", yet when Jan rolls around they both manage to top the previous year's sales.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Also, in your YTD numbers you use the Jan-July numbers for Lexus and the Jan-June numbers for MB. The press releases you linked are dated exactly one month apart. In short you gave Lexus and extra month in your previous post. Probably just a harmless mistake. ;)

    When you look at Mercedes' numbers for the same time period that you give for Lexus it looks more like:

    YTD: MB Cars - 100881 vs Lexus Cars - 81849, so Lexus isn't "about equal" with Mercedes in car sales unless you call -19K+ units for Lexus being almost "equal".

    Something told me that Lexus' car sales couldn't possibly be within 1800 units of Mercedes' car sales (according to your post) so I had to check that again. Turns out my hunch was right.

    As always whenever you look at Lexus and Mercedes-Benz's overall sales, MB is weaker on the SUV side and Lexus is weaker on the car side. That status hasn't changed this year because of the GS like your previous (incorrect) post implies.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Lexus doesn't have a single car (at least until the IS gets here) that causes a person who is even mildly into cars (not charts, surveys, earnings and who the CEO is) feel like they "must have" one. Lexus is the most boring brand in the luxury car field and certainly the most boring one of the 3 luxury Japanese brands."

    These or similar words are your mantra but they are meaningless when it comes to MB as far as I'm concerned. I know a lot, and I mean a lot of people who owned MB's over the years and not one of them was even remotely close to me in car enthusiasm. You paint this issue as if MB was Porsche, loaded with a majority of people who are car nuts. It's not - far from it. People historically bought MB because it was money in the bank on quality, reliability and retention value. In all three of those things Lexus has taken that spot. That is what OAC is talking about and also Blcklislandguy. The 15K or so AMG cars that are bought - rougly 1.5% of MB sales will hold a high degree of accuracy on your point but even there I am sure that there are plenty of people who are not car nuts.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    If MB is as good as you claim, how do you explain that people who own or owned both Lexus and MB all say that Lexus makes a better car, ie. reliabilty and quality, etc.?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    first-generation IS...attracted young buyers with a median age of 29 vs. 39 for a median 3-Series buyer. In fact, only one other vehicle, the tC from Toyota's youth-oriented Scion division, has younger buyers than the IS, Colon said. It also attracted new people to Lexus showrooms -- 90 percent of IS 300 buyers were first-time Lexus owners.

    source http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/mercurynews/classifieds/automotive/12309512.htm
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Good eye on the links. So MB continues to outpace Lexus in car sales, that's good for MB. Hope they continue to do well.

    But more broadly on the theme of my original post, I don't know about your circle of friends or family, but only a small minority of people I know aspire/own an MB. Two friends own an MB - E320 and an S500 - that's it. The majority are BMW, Lexus and Infiniti buyers. I am 42, and my circle don't consider MB as a car to have. We look at MB as the car brand of the past, that our parents/grandparents lusted after. The status symbol of old money.... This is our time and our generation. In fact, one of my good friends, an attorney recently traded in her E320 for a G35 and a GX470. She claimed that she wanted more *fun* out of driving, hence she got rid of her MB.... I have more friends driving a BMW than a Lexus. That influenced my desire to own one, a 3-series. Loved the e46, but deathly afraid of repair costs on a used Bimmer. MB is a good brand but highly overated and over priced, for what you get. To get best value, buy a used MB with an extended warranty (CPO-ed). How can such a brand (MB) be the *must have* lux brand when it is plagued by so many *issues* ??? And these are catching up to the reputation and mystique of MB as a brand... hence the departure of Mr Schrempf. If you don't see the correlation of the MB brand decline with the CEO departure, then you are more fanatic than I thought....
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "To improve Mercedes quality, Zetsche will have to promote techniques developed by companies such as Toyota Motor Corp. aimed at finding and correcting the root causes of defects -- an approach at odds with the more traditional method of inspecting and repairing defective vehicles before they leave the plant."

    It comes from this column:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&sid=atdD41EpoiC8&refer=columnist_levin

    If I dropped $85K on a car I wouldn't be happy reading that comment.

    Somehow all of this is hardly the mark of a leader and it's way too much in the news. Has MB ever gone through turmoil, loss of quality and loss of profitability like this? Certainly not in my memory. They are Damliers big problem right now. The more I read about it the more I realize MB is losing it faster than even I think. Of course Merc will read bankruptcy into this but all it means is a loss of face, a loss of pride, a loss of capital/profitability and a business plan that canot afford another big mistake. Somehow I think putting Maybach styling into the new MB designs is the beginning of a big mistake. The Maybach is a flop so why emulate it?? Maybe the design was put together when Maybach was planning on selling 1500-2000 cars rather than the 500 they sold. Perhaps iit was too late in the game to change the design. Who knows - but at one point there were some questionmarks about the timing of the debut of the new S. Maybe the factions in the company were in disagreement.

    The other funny part of the column is the industry researcher who says MB was standing still. Seems to be quite a counter to Merc's posts that they will never stand still.

    Lastly - this bribery investigation line in the story by the US government is the first I've heard of it. As wel it seems like Cordes is highly desired to stay on but that he has no interest.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    We've had some discussion about resale figures of high end sedans. I've got one question that I've never seen addressed. Does the resale value of a car decline constantly every month as it ages? Or is there a step function whereby on say, September 1, every used car has a birthday and then it plummets a year's worth of depreciation all in one day? The answer to this question is important because it could help someone time a buying decision.

    Here are two examples based on the idea that seemingly the yearly depreciation of a car is calculated on one day once every year. First, car rental companies appear to load up on new cars as early as possible in the MY for a variety of reasons to include marketing ( to offer new MY cars for as long as possible to their customers), factory incentives (the factories must give some incentives to get the initial production run scheduled) but also to minimize depreciation.

    Another example is an ad Jaguar is now running (See www.Jaguarusa.com for complete details) for '05 XJL sedans. The ad offers a good deal: a 24 month lease for $795 per month with no cash down, no security deposit, etc. My thinking is they can offer this because in about 30 days this '05 will be a one year "old" model year car and worth far less. In other words, they will face a tremendous hit on Jaguar depreciation but if they can move it now with some price concessions they may save some of this.

    I realize that the idea that every year every car in the world has a birthday on the same day in September and loses 10 -30% in value sounds far fetched. But how else would it work? Is a 2005 MY car bought in December, 04 really worth "less" than one bought later in March, '05?
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Speaking of being "way too much in the news" the MB fiasco in the cover article is this week's issue of Business Week and the Fianancial Times seemingly daily has articles on the bribery allegations, Juergan's personal life, etc.

    But forget about all this. Have they ever found his limo? The up-armoured version with GPS? That has got to be as insulting and demeaning as say, somone stealing Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's vehicle while he stepped out to talk with some troops.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Pablo was following the Limo story in a German mag. Maybe he knows what became of the S-class limo. That was the armored one with who knows what on it - supposedly a $400K+ vehicle. It would probably have been part of his separation package. You know I worked for a European company and that cut off of comp without paying out an existing contract is unheard of in Europe. They must have really had the goods on Juergen's "activities".
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I know a lot, and I mean a lot of people who owned MB's over the years and not one of them was even remotely close to me in car enthusiasm. You paint this issue as if MB was Porsche, loaded with a majority of people who are car nuts. It's not - far from it. People historically bought MB because it was money in the bank on quality, reliability and retention value. In all three of those things Lexus has taken that spot. That is what OAC is talking about and also Blcklislandguy.

    My point is that MB isn't the same boring type of company that Lexus is, not that they are BMW or Porsche, or that MBs are only bought by car nuts. My point is that MB has gotten a lot younger in styling and in the driving experience over the last 10 years. On this board MB is judged by their sedans because that is where they line up with Lexus, but MB offers way more than just sedans and suvs. They have coupes, roadsters, sports cars, wagons etc., and I'm not even talking about their AMG models. That seems to be totally lost here. Models like the CL, SLK, SL, CLK, CLS, and SLR is where the bulk of the excitement within the MB brand is (not just the E/S models talked about here). Lexus has virtually nothing to counter this, unless you count the SC430 which has been panned in any and every comparo for driving and looking like a Buick. Mercedes isn't soley about the S and E-Class and their resale values that you love to point out so much. MB is so much more than just the two sedans you looked at or that your circle of friends have/had.

    Just because your circle isn't into cars as much as you are doesn't mean that goes for everyone that had or has an MB. This doesn't go for everyone's connection to MB, not at all.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    If MB is as good as you claim, how do you explain that people who own or owned both Lexus and MB all say that Lexus makes a better car, ie. reliabilty and quality, etc.?

    Because they found this to be true, so whats your point? I didn't say that MB was outright better than Lexus at those things. Reliability Lexus is king, but in build quality newer MBs are just as good if not what they were in the late 90s' or 80's. No car is built like MBs from that era. The second part of the answer is when I see Lexus owners complaining about being bored to death with their cars when it comes to the driving experience and styling. Every car compromises something, at least to some people.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You're 42 and drive and LS400!?!? Oh my....lol! :surprise:

    Seriously though you ask:

    How can such a brand (MB) be the *must have* lux brand when it is plagued by so many *issues* ??? And these are catching up to the reputation and mystique of MB as a brand... hence the departure of Mr Schrempf.

    Because nearly no one cares about who a car company's CEO is nor do they base their purchases on corporate matters. I really don't know how else to explain this. Most people look at the car for what it is and/or then look at CR/JDP. Some place the surveys first, as it is done here, and others use them as a factor, not the sole factor. However, hardly none of them care one bit who the car company's CEO is or what that company earned last year. This has to be true for makes like VW, Land Rover, Audi, Volvo and now MB who don't do well in these areas, yet manage to keep selling cars.

    One drive in a CLS55, SLK350 or any other non-sedan MB will have strongly re-thinking this corporate/survey stuff, or at least it should. If it doesn't then there is nothing else for me to say, I can't reach you. :cry: When people see a CLK500 Cabriolet or CL600 parked in front of the local "spot" that builds prestige and these corporate things are long gone, if they were ever present in their minds to begin with. Don't let a SLR ride by. That is brand building and solidifying 101.

    Could most European car companies do better on the corporate side? For sure. Does this enter the mind of the average consumer. No. A guy buying a E350 or a SL500 doesn't care about MB's profits or who their CEO is. Most buyers couldn't tell you who the CEO of a car company is. This has nothing to do with the sheer appeal of a MB (or any other desirable car) when seen on the street. This is where Lexus missed the boat with people who fundamentally like a little excitement in their cars. Lexus doesn't have a single car that pegs that side of the gauge. The IS350 might change that, but even there it seems so far to be more of the same, and without a manual tranny in class full of them. There is no excuse for that.

    The Japanese, well make that Toyota/Lexus trade heavily on reliability surveys and if they ever lost that standing or dropped to the level of some of their European competitors, they'd fall a lot faster because you don't see any of their owners raving about styling, design, hp, or anything else "car like", its always non-car things like surveys.

    I've always believed that people who buy European cars over and over have a different mindset from people who always buy Japanese. Most, not all, certainly not all, don't mind a few problems here and there because of the experience the car gives them. Lexus-only buyers will never see this because for one I don't believe they care about actual driving experience. I mean how a car accelerates, stops, steers etc. not how nice the Nav, stereo, leather is. I never read anything about the car itself. This is where German cars excel and just "feel" better and/or more connected. Does't have to be an AMG or Motorsport model either for most people to feel the difference. If one doesn't see any difference then the Japanese car is most likely for them, and I don't mean that in a condesending way at all. I'm serious. The reliability will be better in the Japanese car and they'll enjoy themselves anyway, though they don't know what they're missing out on, imo.

    The things you and Lenn constantly bring up are corporate matters for the most part, things like profits and CEO changes. I'd bet that over 95 percent of buyers don't have a clue as to how much money Land Rover lost or MB made last year, or who their CEOs are. These things are totally irrelevant to most buyers and it has no little or no effect on the prestige of the brand, except for those who look at such things, and they (it is well proven here) wouldn't buy European anyway.

    Lastly, I proved that (even using your price range) MB is still the preferred brand for the high-end buyer. Whether or not that status is deserved or not is surely up for debate, but it is what is.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "To improve Mercedes quality, Zetsche will have to promote techniques developed by companies such as Toyota Motor Corp. aimed at finding and correcting the root causes of defects -- an approach at odds with the more traditional method of inspecting and repairing defective vehicles before they leave the plant."

    I've said before that they should have been doing something like this, and I think they are with the Bama plant that makes the M/R and next G-Class vehicles, since an ex-Toyota man runs it.

    The rest of your post underlines my point about corporate matters vs what the average buyer cares about. MB isn't the industry leader they used to be, but they are still the most prestigious of the luxury brands in most people's minds. The majority of buyers aren't in the industry and couldn't care any less about any of that stuff. Nobody cares about any of this when they to go to buy a car, it isn't that serious. Sure in the eyes of industry folk all this is bad, but the guy shopping for a SLK350 or E500 it is beyond irrelevant and he ain't in the industry.

    BTW, Maybach's initial plan was a 1000 cars a year worldwide, not 1500-2000. You're exagerating to make a point here, a point that really doesn't need to be made. Neither Rolls or Maybach have met their sales goals yet.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    But more broadly on the theme of my original post, I don't know about your circle of friends or family, but only a small minority of people I know aspire/own an MB. Two friends own an MB - E320 and an S500 - that's it. The majority are BMW, Lexus and Infiniti buyers. I am 42, and my circle don't consider MB as a car to have.

    What car do they consider the "one" to have then? Is it a singular brand or is spread out between Lexus/BMW/Infiniti? I ask because I don't know anyone my age that aspires to own a Lexus, even though one of my best friends has one. He has a 1995 SC300 that looks as if spent most of its life in a museum because he pushes around a beater for the daily grind. People I know find Lexus to be an old mans car through and through. Its either MB/BMW/Infiniti and to a lesser degree Acura, with Audi bringing up the rear. Even my friend that has a Lexus doesn't want another one because nothing in their current line appeals to him, they're all to boring. He might would go for a SC430, but a LS430 not on his life.

    Do we all wish (or aspire) to buy the high-end MB or BMW of choice? Yep. Here BMW and MB are the #1 aspirational luxury cars by far, with Infiniti coming on strong. The reality of it is however, 3-Series/C-CLK/G35/TL/A4 ;) Lexus' high- end cars like the LS and SC aren't even thought about. Lexus not being a factor may change with the new IS, because I think the whole thing centers on age more than anything else since my circle appears to be at least 10 years younger than yours.

    Everyone else I know with a Lexus is either over 50 or retired, except for some RX owners (women).

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Everyone else I know with a Lexus is either over 50 or retired, except for some RX owners (women).

    That might be among the people you know, but in the overall marketplace things are different...MB owners on average are older than Lexus buyers.

    source: "Fixing Cadillac," Newsweek, May 28, 2001

    luxury car median age household income % of college graduation
    Mercedes-Benz 52 $186,236 71%
    Lexus 50 $151,711 69%
    BMW 45 $149,609 69%
    Acura 48 $107,261 61%
    Lincoln 59 $113,656 49%
    Cadillac 62 $106,701 46%
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That might be among the people you know, but in the overall marketplace things are different...MB owners on average are older than Lexus buyers.

    Well syswei I didn't say otherwise. What I said was pertaining to people that I know who have a Lexus. Two years ain't squat anyway. It is Cadillac and Lincoln on one end and BMW on the other that have any significant difference.

    And your information is probably outdated, either way I really don't care one way or another about a 2 year difference.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Yes that data was stale. Here are some more up to date figures from
    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2005-02-16-seniorcars-usat_x.htm

    Car buyers' median age by brand:
    Division Median age
    Rolls-Royce 62.9
    Lincoln 62.8
    Buick 60.8
    Mercedes 58.7
    Chrysler 56.4
    Mercury 55.1
    Cadillac 53.4
    Jaguar 49.8
    Lexus 49.4
    BMW 46.1
    Ferrari 45.6
    Hummer 45.6
    Acura 45.3
    GMC 44.4
    Saab 44.4
    Pontiac 43.4
    Porsche 43.4
    Dodge 42.9
    Chevrolet 42.7
    Honda 41.9
    Toyota 41.9
    Infiniti 41.6
    Mitsubishi 41.3
    Volvo 40.3
    Ford 39.7
    Land Rover 38.9
    VW 38.7
    Jeep 37.6
    Nissan 35.1
    Mazda 34.6
    Suzuki 33.2
    Isuzu 32.7
    Subaru 31.7
    Saturn 30.9
    Hyundai 29.8
    Kia 28.1

    Looks like the clear number one brand at the $50-80k high end for senior citizens is Mercedes! ;)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Again, I stated what my experience was. I didn't state that industry wide Lexus owners were older than Mercedes owners so feel free to post as many studies, charts as you like. I really don't care because that doesn't tell me what my experience is. It doesn't surprise me that MB owners would be older, considering what they cost, especially at the upper end where they dominate over Lexus.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I don't know anyone my age that aspires to own a Lexus,

    Perhaps you are in a wrong age group. If your best friend has to baby a $5000 '95 SC300 like a crown jewel, perhaps your age group can only afford beat up 80's and early 90's BMW and MB. Used Lexus simply hold up value too well for your age group or income demographic.

    Even my friend that has a Lexus doesn't want another one because nothing in their current line appeals to him, they're all to boring. He might would go for a SC430, but a LS430 not on his life.

    SC430?? The least expensive used one is around $35k, kinda out of reach for someone babies a 11yr old $5k car don't you think? Whether LS430 is in his life will depend on what he makes of himself for the remaining years.

    Corporate news does not matter to buyers of 10yr old used cars, but matters very much to buyers of brand new cars when the reason for CEO firing is poor quality. Aspiring at a young age and low income level and actually buying when financially arrived are two entirely different things. I kept a couple used BMW's when I was in school and only had sub-$15k to spend on cars, and did not mind cars breaking down. Nowadays, a car break down on any single day would cost me in business liability more than a month's car payment on the most expensive S/7/LS model; I would not even consider MB.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    so feel free to post as many studies, charts as you like. I really don't care because that doesn't tell me what my experience is.

    In other words, don't confuse me with facts :-) C class significantly out-sell S class, and is less expensive than the most common Lexus, the RX, so the cost-age argument doesn't hold water either.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Very interesting results. The real star there is Infiniti (and to a lesser extent Volvo and LR). If Infiniti can keep buyers like that coming back, they should do very well in the coming years.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Thank-you.

    It's a point Merc just doesn't get. People I know in business are well aware of MB's problems and many have walked from the brand. Those who haven't are people with the old more reliable MB's and they are real hesitant on buying a new one. Some have had serious problems of their own, some minor ones but are aware from others of the major things that go wrong. To think that all this negative news, poor reliability studies and hearing first hand experiences from neighbors/friends etc. doesn't take a toll is the ultimate in wishing. Probably younger gen folks who always wanted an MB because it was the best and was/is a status symbol are the last to grasp and accept what is going on. I'd venture that this is the group merc1 knows. But the older seaoned exec types have become afraid to pull the trigger on such an expense with serious quality issues. My cousin dumped the SL she craved all her life because MB wanted $3K to fix the AC which stopped working at 30K miles. She had already dumped another $2,500 for various other things right after warranty. She was one of those younger gen buyers who was quite content the first year or so and then the problems started. When it got out of warranty those problems worsened to the point of total frustration and a resale of the car. I won't go to retention valiue on that one but let's just say she wasn't happy about that either.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Didn't exaggerate anything. I honestly thought their plan was 500 US, 1,000 Europe/UK and 250 Asia. If I was wrong I stand corrected.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Thx for this stat, syswei... It sure debunks Merc1's assertions that's why he doesn't *care* about these numbers.... hehehehe....

    Have we not heard how Lexus is compared to Buicks ??? Buicks owners average 60.8 yr olds, just a tad older than MB owners, while Lexus owners are clearly much YOUNGER than both MBs and Buicks. And Merc1 should note that Buicks are far CHEAPER than Lexus to own, so..... So we can now describe MBs as closer to Buicks than Lexus, eh ! Lest we forget, the Lexus IS has the lowest age demographic among ALL luxury car brands, at 29, much younger than the 35-ish for 3-series owners.

    Yes, the $50-80K price range are populated by blue-haired oldies in their MBs doing 30mph on a 70mph freeways..... Hilarious !!!!
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    the Lexus IS has the lowest age demographic among ALL luxury car brands, at 29, much younger than the 35-ish for 3-series owners.

    The 3-series owners average 39yo. If the new IS is successful enough, it will pull the average Lexus age (for the full product line) down toward BMW's average.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    What car do they consider the "one" to have then? Is it a singular brand or is spread out between Lexus/BMW/Infiniti? I ask because I don't know anyone my age that aspires to own a Lexus, even though one of my best friends has one...

    [Sigh]

    For us the MB mystique is just not there. We prefer Lexus, BMW and Infiniti - 330/528/530/745, G35/Q45, ES/LS/RX/LX/GX... and a couple of MBs (320/500). As for me, I have 3 cars at home, with the LS as the family sedan - luxurious, reliable, quality, dependable and solid. Maybe my fav car to drive is the Toyota Matrix. I have written about it quite a few times. For those times when family and friends come visiting, or transporting my daughter's girl scout troop to camp, boating trips, kayaking trips, family soft ball games, etc... the Sequoia comes in handy.

    Does this answer your question ?
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    I don't know anyone my age that aspires to own a MB. I, my family and most of my friends who owned MB will never buy another one again till they are as good as Lexus. You don't care about that either, but MB does. MB is losing sales right and left with our group who are professionals, make over six figure income, and have net worth of millions. We can buy anythin we want. Quite a few of my friends have Rolls. The only people who aspires to own a MB are those who never own one before. They will buy one but if they have the same experience that I have, they will not buy another one again. That's is the problem with MB, my friend.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I disagree. A lot of Mercedes where I live. People want Mercedes/BMW not Lexus. You can see it driving around the area. If there is such a problem with MB how come there are so damn many of the new models on the road?
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Did you ask them how they like it? Let see what those MB people buy the next time around. For me, I switched from MB to Lexus, same with most of those I know. I still own BMW though. As I said before, it's the happy repeat customers that count. If they are not happy, they will tell everyone just like what's happening here and elsewhere. At tthis time, there ARE a lot of unhappy MB owners (old and new).
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    People want Mercedes/BMW not Lexus...If there is such a problem with MB how come there are so damn many of the new models on the road?

    Yeah, people want MB/BMW, and there are alot of new MBs and BMWs on the road. But there are more new Lexi on the road.

    2005YTD

    Lexus 168,568 units
    BMW 146,042
    MB 119,425

    So, Lexus so far this year has sold 41% more units than MB. That's despite MB offering a model range with many more variants and starting slightly lower in price than does Lexus; despite MB's better styling (imho); and despite MB's greater prestige. There is "a problem" (to use your words) with MB, and it is primarily reliability, imho.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    going to dealerships to get them fixed
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    The market speaks.... and numbers tell the story which no amount of spin can refute. Merc1 and other MB fans need reality check... MB is not growing as the competition, and is no longer the *must have* brand among the lux crowd. That is reality !
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    BTW, back in 2000, when Lexus first captured the number one spot in luxury vehicle sales, it only edged out MB by 423 units or 0.2%...206,037 to 205,614.

    Now it looks like they'll beat MB by 80,000-90,000 units in 2005, or the 41% referenced above.

    What's the difference between then and now? IMHO, primarily the impact of MB's continued reliability issues on the buying public.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I live where you live and I know firsthand that is not true. Keep track of the Lexi you see instead of just the German ones. They are impossible to miss. Ray Catena floods the area with 5,000 a year and thats going up to 7,000 with the new dealership on Rt. 9.
  • jtbenzjtbenz Member Posts: 29
    I have to chuckle when I read all these posts praising Lexus. I have driven them and they are absolutely the most boring luxery car line in the world. The cars drive and look like they were designed by the same robots that built them. They inspire no passion for driving. The people who buy them must only want a comfortable living room to get them from place to place.
    They are the Camerys of the luxury car market. I'll take a Benz or a BMW, or a Caddy over the souless Lexus.
    But am I surprised that they sell so many? No, there are a lot of people who like boring uninspired cars who want to be like all the other soccer moms and dads on the block so they can all sit around and talk about what a good choice they made in buying a Lexus and laugh at all the fools out driving the less practical German and American cars.
    As for me, I would rather be out carving up the roads in my Benz.
    And my Benz has been bulletproof, absolutely no problems.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I would rather be out carving up the roads in my Benz

    Are you driving an AMG? If not, why MB over BMW?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    And I chuckle when I read a post like yours because it's so far from the truth. What's really amazing is that in today's world you would think that something built to the highest quality standards in its industry, and one which sweeps all the people awards there are year after year, would not sell well.
  • jtbenzjtbenz Member Posts: 29
    No unfortunately I don't have an AMG and I like certain cars from BMW's, but not the new 5 series or the z's. And I may have to save my pennies for the new AMG V-8.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I'm always curious why some of the people who seem to place "fun to drive"/handling/performance high on the priority list end up in non-AMG MBs rather than BMWs. Is it styling or iDrive or what factors in your case?
  • jtbenzjtbenz Member Posts: 29
    I don't care how many people's choice awards it gets, I don't need the crowd's reassurance that I made the right choice. Heck Brittany Spears sold more CD's last year than Beethoven but her music is certainly is not better and I am not going to rush out and buy her CD's becuase she has a lot of sales.
    The reason for Lexus' popularity is exactly why I don't like them, they are the most watered down passionless model line in the luxury car market. Well maybe Lincoln, Ford has really negleted that line recently. But even Lincoln isn't dumb enough to make a front-wheel drive luxury sport sedan.
    Lexus caters to people who want a comfortable status symbol who don't care about driving.
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