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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Are all young people supposed to be saddled with debt to drive a high-end car? I'd rather wait, and most people I know would too before running out to buy some high-end car with a lease payment that gets in the way of eating. Know what I mean?

    Thanks for the sarcasm, but you are talking to someone who does not owe a cent on cars, lease or loan. I paid cash for both $30-40k vehicles brand new; one of them is up for replacement soon, and I intend to pay cash again,. IMHO, once it's over $30k (the old line for luxury cars, according to IRS; now probably $35k, but that's MSRP), unless there is compelling financial reason (such as tax write-off), one should indeed avoid financing altogether. So, yes we are on the same page regarding financial sensibility and responsibility.

    The comment about no expereince with high-end MB ownership also applies to the same pro-Lexus posters here too . . .They haven't owned a MB either to my knowledge, its all paper based.

    Not quite. It's not my business whether someone shops in the luxury category or not. However, if someone's shopping cart is way belowthe luxury price range (for whatever reason, even if he is as rich as Sam Walton, the billionaire who drove a beat-up pickup all his life), his "aspirations" doesn't count nearly as much as someone who is shopping in the price range but have avoided MB because the undesirabilty of the marquee.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I wasn't being sarcastic, I was trying to lighten the mood. In my age group there are a lot of people that drive nicer cars than me, but many of they live at home with their parents and can't miss a day at work. As much as I love cars I'll pass on that type of lifestyle.

    Anyway you're on a much higher page than I am financially. I can't pay 30K+ in cash for a car.

    Not quite. It's not my business whether someone shops in the luxury category or not. However, if someone's shopping cart is way belowthe luxury price range (for whatever reason, even if he is as rich as Sam Walton, the billionaire who drove a beat-up pickup all his life), his "aspirations" doesn't count nearly as much as someone who is shopping in the price range but have avoided MB because the undesirabilty of the marquee.

    I didn't say that they should, it was just a simple question about who likes what, it wasn't that big of a deal that you turned it into.

    M
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    This big downfall and sales downturn has been predicted by oac and ljflx for a while now, years in the case of ljflx. The thing is it hasn't happened yet nearly on the scale of which we have to read about every few months.

    I'd say, in the traditional German world, having CEO fired for poor financial results is a pretty big down fall. Having free scheduled maitenance pulled (due to financial need) is also big, and directly affects the buyer. More importantly, MB is experiencing dramatic resale price decline in the real secondary market. The lease residue is subsidized by the company to get the cars moving. However, like I said before, I'm not interested in leasing; I don't want to be on the hook for remaining payments if I have to change to a different car especially considering the unreliability of the car. I just trade in every few years when I want a change. The drastic decline in real world resale makes buying new MB extremely uneconomic.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I disagree. A lot of Mercedes where I live. People want Mercedes/BMW not Lexus. You can see it driving around the area. If there is such a problem with MB how come there are so damn many of the new models on the road?

    What I find really interesting is that you're being told what you see in your area, and what Lexus' dealerships put on the road like it means that is what you'll automatically see the most of.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    The only people who aspires to own a MB are those who never own one before. They will buy one but if they have the same experience that I have, they will not buy another one again. That's is the problem with MB, my friend.

    Wrong. Right here on Edmunds there are repeat MB buyers. Secondly you have know way of knowing that every MB buyer's experience will be so you really can't predict what they'll buy in the future. To say that only people who have never owned own a MB are the only ones that aspire to do so is your feeling, not a fact. How do you know what any and every MB owner you see driving down the road has had before or apsires to own in the future. The the former buyers MB has burned, yes that is a problem, but every MB owner doesn't get burned contrary to popular mis-beliefs here.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    four months without reading or posting, and I can see I haven't missed a thing. Complete deja vu.

    Yep! What do you think of the new S-Class? Any info on price, availability, and the when the entry-level V8 S450 will arrive?

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Lexus LS430 having a big price advantage compared the Euro competition is a major reason behind the sales thing. I know, you don't think price matters.

    Price does matter, but it can be offset by other factors, like MB's higher prestige.

    If price is so critical to the sales performance, and is not offset by prestige, you'll have to explain why:

    in 1999, MB beat Lexus unit sales in the U.S., 189,000 units to 185,890

    but in 2005, Lexus is on track to beat MB by 41% (per post 10088)

    Did Lexus vehicles cost more than MB vehicles back in 1999? Is that why MB outsold Lexus back then? Hardly.

    The biggest reason for MB's relative sales performance between then and now (i.e., going from top-selling luxury import to number 3) imho is the impact of MB reliability issues on the buying public. It has nothing to do with price, because MB has been more expensive all along.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    in 1999, MB beat Lexus unit sales in the U.S., 189,000 units to 185,890

    Thats easy, that was the year they rode the popularity their first SUV introduced in 1998, and 1999 and 2000 were the best years for the previous M-Class, that is what put them over Lexus, not their more expensive cars.

    Lexus is only ahead of MB and BMW because they caught the SUV wave, not because of their cars. If the portion of Lexus' volume based on SUVs was taken out they'd still be behind Mercedes. Lexus is the best seller because of SUVs, not because all their cars are some sort of best-selling allstars.

    The biggest reason for MB's relative sales performance between then and now (i.e., going from top-selling luxury import to number 3) imho is the impact of MB reliability issues on the buying public. It has nothing to do with price, because MB has been more expensive all along.

    That is your opinion, but there is no way to prove that. To me Lexus selling way more SUVs than cars says a lot about where the market shifted, and to Mercedes' fault they missed the SUV market giving Lexus a big lead. If the Germans as a whole got in on the ground floor with SUVs or the right kind of SUV, which Lexus did, the story might have been different. Secondly a lot of Mercedes models play in a much pricier market beyond Lexus and that can't be swept under the prestige excuse by saying that price doesn't limit sales.

    Prestige can't account for the difference in price between every Lexus and Mercedes, and if it could how do we measure it?

    Lexus is ahead based on SUVS and a the popular ES330, a car no other foreign car company even considers competition.

    Why do you think Mercedes has renewed its interest in SUV and/or SUV like vehicles? That is where they missed the action and Lexus has made that painfully clear to MB, BMW and Audi, who all have jumped on the SUV bandwagon in the last 5 years of so. This ain't got nothing to do with no lame surveys.

    If everyone or even the majority who bought SUVs were into surveys, Land Rover wouldn't be able to command the prices they do for theirs, especially the Range Rover. People wouldn't even want SUVs if they truly cared what they press has to say about them being unsafe and everything else so un-PC about them. The previous M-Class has the worst of reputations in these surveys, yet it sold decently right up to the end and the new one is off to a flying start. If surveys were the end all the new one wouldn't get off the ground.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    [1999] was the year [MB] rode the popularity their first SUV introduced in 1998, and 1999 and 2000 were the best years for the previous M-Class, that is what put them over Lexus, not their more expensive cars.

    Not much of an excuse, because both companies had SUVs by 1999. The LX450 was introduced in Jan 1996 (and btw surpassed Range Rover in the space of 2 months), while the RX300 went on sale in the spring of 1998.

    So both companies competed in SUVs in 1999, as they do now. Yet the relative sales (cars+SUVs) have swung by 43% in Lexus' favor in the past 6 years.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    But anyway, let's say for the sake of argument that SUVs just shouldn't count.

    In 1999, excluding SUVs, MB sold 144,231 units. In 2005, it is on track to sell 172,939. A gain of 20%.

    In 1999, excluding SUVs, Lexus sold 98,658 units. In 2005, it is on track to sell 140,313. A gain of 45%.

    Do you see a trend here?

    Again, price doesn't explain it, as MB was expensive in 1999 too.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Not much of an excuse, because both companies had SUVs by 1999. The LX450 was introduced in Jan 1996 (and btw surpassed Range Rover in the space of 2 months), while the RX300 went on sale in the spring of 1998.

    Totally irrelevant. The LX450 was and still is (LX470) a low volume seller with a much higher price than the M-Class which was priced like a mainstream SUV back in 1998, and the LX450 was not. The M-Class was the first mainstream priced SUV from a luxury car maker, hence it putting MB on top until others joined in. Plus the MB M-Class while seemingly sound in concept wasn't what the market wanted. It wanted a more car-like ride like the RX. Plus in 1999 the ML was hitting its stride like the RX did in later model years.

    There is no way around the fact that Lexus' SUV sales are what put them on top.

    So both companies competed in SUVs in 1999, as they do now. Yet the relative sales (cars+SUVs) have swung by 43% in Lexus' favor in the past 6 years.

    Have you ignored everything from the previous post? It is SUVS that have done this. The RX and the GX. Mercedes had basically nothing to compete against this. Lexus' car sales aren't what has turned the tide. Well those SUVs and the ES330, which I can't see any European luxury car brand seeing as competition.

    We can re-visit this once the M, R, and new GL are all in place.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Do you see a trend here?

    Yeah I do. Lexus having introduced a new key sedan this year is what I see. They went from about 8500 unit sales of the GS last year to double that already this year because of new car. Mercedes didn't introduce a new version of one of their volume cars like the E, C or S this year. The CLS is too impractical to sell past the 2K per month mark, if you were going to bring that up. This is not some type of long-term crisis or downturn at MB like you're trying to imply. Lets go over this again the next time MB introduces a new E, or C-Class or even after they introduce the new S-Class. Now if they don't increase car sales on top of the introduction of one of those new key cars then you might have a point, until then you don't and just reaching for something that isn't there.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Lexus having introduced a new key sedan this year is what I see.

    Oh, so now we should exclude the contribution of new models from sales performance? I think you're the one "reaching for something that isn't there" (to use your words). Here are the facts:

    For Lexus, the GS has contributed an incremental 13,801 units to 2005ytd sales.

    For MB, the CLS and SLK have contributed an incremental 14,092 units to 2005ytd sales.

    So it is MB, not Lexus, that has been helped (slightly) more by new models.

    The fact remains, whether you adjust for new models or not, and whether you include SUVs or not, Lexus has gained significant share vs MB in the last 6 years. There is a long-term trend there, whether you wish to see it or not. IMHO, MB needs to turn around its reliability if it wants to turn around that trend.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Oh, so now we should exclude the contribution of new models from sales performance? I think you're the one "reaching for something that isn't there" (to use your words). Here are the facts:

    For Lexus, the GS has contributed an incremental 13,801 units to 2005ytd sales.

    For MB, the CLS and SLK have contributed an incremental 14,092 units to 2005ytd sales.

    So it is MB, not Lexus, that has been helped (slightly) more by new models.


    Wow a whole 291 units. Some trend. The GS has far more potential than the CLS and SLK by virtue of it being a 3-box sedan unlike the CLS and especially the SLK. What was the point here again, I honestly have forgotten because this is silly imo.

    The fact remains, whether you adjust for new models or not, and whether you include SUVs or not, Lexus has gained significant share vs MB in the last 6 years. There is a long-term trend there, whether you wish to see it or not. IMHO, MB needs to turn around its reliability if it wants to turn around that trend.

    And the fact also remains that Lexus sells at cheaper price points overall model for model (in almost every case) compared to MB. MB has also grown in the last 6 years also, just not at the pace of Lexus has. Price and not having 3 SUVs to pad their bottom line with have much more to do with that than some surveys that not everyone worships. The Germans missed the SUV craze, plain and simple.

    To stop the trend you're talking about they would need to lower prices, not gonna happen.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "The thing is it hasn't happened yet nearly on the scale of which we have to read about every few months."

    You go from making $2.5bln a year to losing money in 3 years and you don't think that is a serious downturn. Your cars are placed at the lowest end of reliability studies and customer satisfaction studies when they historically occupied the exact opposite space and you don't think that is a serious downturn. Now resale values have fallen through the floor when they were at the exact opposite end of the spectrum and you don't think that is a serious downturn. MB is being crimped on all sides. Higher production costs, big warranty repair costs, retention writeoff because leased cars were worth a lot less than the lease retenion values, too big a line-up to maintain successfully etc etc. i could go on but I'll leave it there. The one thing every CFO or knowledgable Wall Street analyst looks at is a little term called "Incremental Margin". Most non-financial people don't know what it is until it hits them in the wallet. But it's real simple. In laymans terms it means the last car you sold was more profitable than the car before it and far more profitable then the 10,000th car before it. You don't need to see sales cut in half, or a third, or even a quarter to bring on a serious downturn. 10% will do it, because that 10% is contributing tremendous incremental margin/prtofits to the business. Combine that with the high cost structure of a brand like MB, the increasing warranty and rcall costs plus the out of control costs to maintain so many model variants and it happens fast.. It's happened right before our eyes already and you are reading about it every three months because every three months the fundamentals and the numbers are worsening.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Of course if MB lowered its prices, it would help unit sales. And if Lexus magically attained MB's prestige, it would help unit sales.

    But I'll say again, MB's prices have nothing to do with the trend of relative sales declines vs Lexus, because MB's prices were high both at the end and at the beginning of the period. If MB had raised its prices more than Lexus during the period, then you would be able to point to price as an excuse for the relative sales performance.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Wow a whole 291 units. Some trend. The GS has far more potential than the CLS and SLK by virtue of it being a 3-box sedan unlike the CLS and especially the SLK. What was the point here again, I honestly have forgotten because this is silly imo.

    I wasn't pointing to the GS as a trend, silly. I pointed out that even excluding SUVs, Lexus' sales are up 45% in 6 years, vs 20% for MB, and you brought up the GS in an attempt to explain away Lexus' performance. I just pointed out that MB has been helped slightly more by the CLS and SLK than Lexus has been helped by the GS. You can forget about the GS/CLS/SLK line of discussion, and just focus on 45% vs 20%.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    But I'll say again, MB's prices have nothing to do with the trend of relative sales declines vs Lexus, because MB's prices were high both at the end and at the beginning of the period. If MB had raised its prices more than Lexus during the period, then you would be able to point to price as an excuse for the relative sales performance.

    Mercedes' sales haven't declined. They have grown every year for the last 10+ years. They haven't grown at the rate of Lexus' because of price and because they didn't have 3 SUVs to produce the growth. The trend has been for a while now, towards SUVs, which Mercedes only had one of, and that one was flawed.

    The Prestige theory doesn't pass muster because you're simply trying to say prestige can account for those who can't afford to buy one of the 70K+ models Mercedes has on offer, which sell above the price of any Lexus.

    Price is far more real than prestige. One can either can afford to buy up or can't, doesn't matter what one thinks of the car.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Again, lots of business stuff that average consumer couldn't care any less about.

    When I said that you have been predicting this major downturn I was talking about your prediction when it came to sales, not corporate matters. You act like buyers care about any of that stuff you just posted, they don't.

    Did I say that everything was ok at MB at the corporate level? No. I said that buyers don't care about any of that irrelevent stuff that you just posted. It doesn't have anything to do with most people buying the car of their choice. People don't care about any of that and this great fall you always speak of in sales, prestige or the ability to sell cars at higher prices than the competition, hasn't happened, at least not yet.

    M
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    As good a post as I've read on Edmunds and so accurate..

    Brightness - great posts also.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I wasn't pointing to the GS as a trend, silly. I pointed out that even excluding SUVs, Lexus' sales are up 45% in 6 years, vs 20% for MB, and you brought up the GS in an attempt to explain away Lexus' performance. I just pointed out that MB has been helped slightly more by the CLS and SLK than Lexus has been helped by the GS. You can forget about the GS/CLS/SLK line of discussion, and just focus on 45% vs 20%.

    Well your post read like and gave numbers for the current year, so that is what I thought you were talking about. You'll have to produce the numbers for the last 6 years with SUV sales in order for me to believe that one. That would mean they're selling a lot of ES and LS models because both the IS and GS have never been that popular. Even if they are up that much on the car side, you'll turn around and say price has nothing to do with it, though nearly every Lexus car model is cheaper than every MB car model. So whats the point? Price won't factor into your analysis.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Mercedes' sales haven't declined. They have grown every year for the last 10+ years.

    I did say relative sales declines. Meaning if MB (ex-SUVs) is up 20% and Lexus (ex-SUVs) is up 45%, MB has posted a decline relative to how Lexus has done. They have lost share vs Lexus. Whether you look at "vehicles" (cars+SUVs) or just at "cars".

    They haven't grown at the rate of Lexus' because of price and because they didn't have 3 SUVs to produce the growth.

    I think I've addressed both of these points, more than once.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Price won't factor into your analysis.

    Price doesn't need to factor into the analysis because it is a constant. MB was more expensive during the entire period, 1999-2005. MB was more expensive in 1990,1991,1992,1993,1994,1995,1996,1997,1998,1999, yet managed to outsell Lexus. MB was more expensive in 1999 than Lexus, and still is in 2005, so the price differential is a constant....yet the 6-year sales trend favors Lexus, even excluding SUVs.

    Honestly, I think your MB blinders keep you from grasping perfectly logical arguments. I've made my points, and if you can't accept them then I give up on getting you to accept them. End of discussion for me, unless you say something particularly outrageous.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't accept your points about prestige making up for price because there is no way to prove that. Prestige only matters to those who can buy whatever they want, then it may have something to do with their purchases because price isn't as much of an issue. Until this is factored in and is also able to be measured then the prestige arguement isn't valid imo.

    How in the world anyone can expect Mercedes to keep up with Lexus' sales pace with a much pricier lineup because of prestige is not dealing in the reality of what most buyers can afford. If the E and S were priced like the GS and S, their sales would increase a lot. At some point price does become a factor to most buyers. Saying that prestige totally makes up for this isn't valid.

    M
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    I am sure I will see you and all those MB owners by the side of the road or on the way to get the MB fixed. Good luck. When someone gets stuck by the side of the road, you think they care about how it drives? By the way, where I came from, MB are driven by chaffeurs.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    where I came from, MB are driven by chaffeurs

    Hong Kong?
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    European auto industry IS in a lot worse shape than they are in. Read the news, my friend. It appears that you are from the past, not the present. Where have you been the last decade?
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    You are right.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    JTBENZ:

    Fact is a Lexus LS430 will blow the doors off of any S in it's Price range at 0-60 in 5.9 sec.....Even though it has 40 less horses....

    I have an Ultra and in the Sport and Power Modes it will corner and handle with any S class any-where near it's price range. ($71,000 MFSR) But not as well as a BMW 7

    I frankly have grown tired of the current Mercedes LOOK...The Lexus design is not flashy but it is timeless.

    Even Mercedes People concede the quality and realibility edge that LEXUS LS has over the equilivently Priced S..

    Finally I will admit that I am talking only about the LS vrs. The S...I am not crazy about the ES ...The GS is too small for my tastes...and I am one of those odd balls that just doesn't like SUVs........E and C and A and B and whatever May be better then the Equilivent LEXUS line...I don't know and Don't care...and this is the High end Luxuary board anyway.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Did I say that everything was ok at MB at the corporate level? No. I said that buyers don't care about any of that irrelevent stuff that you just posted. It doesn't have anything to do with most people buying the car of their choice...

    And you now speak for all car buyers, or only MB buyers in knowing what they care about when they buy their high-end cars ?? I can imagine many high-end lux car buyers quite savvy about *some* of the news surrounding MB. And if they think such news is bad enough, they may buy something else. Hence the lower growth rate of the MB brand over the past 5 years compared to, say, Lexus.....And if MB believes SUV will help pad their sales at this day and age, ain't they a tad late, don't ya think ? especially with gas closing on $3 / gallon ??? Maybe diesel or hybrid option will be a *fuel* (no pun intended) for future growth, eh ?

    What I find most interesting, thus far in your posts Merc1 is a failure to simply connect the dots... that there is this connection between MB issues and MB's overall market performance. Its real simple, u know. If u remain in doubt, re-read the post on the cause and effect eloquently written by our resident attorney, garyh.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    We all give credits to MB back in the good old days, but not this decade. MB is getting beaten day after day in what they used to be good at, ie. quality, luxury, reliability, resale value, etc. by other automakers especially Lexus. That's all.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Looks like MB pisses off so many people that it creates opportunity for other automakers to overtake MB. But MB still has merc1 and other like him as customers. That customer base is less than Lexus customers though. In other words, MB creates its enemies.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    In all honestly you stop making a logical argument a while ago with comments about me having a Benz and being stuck on the side of the road so I'm done, take care.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    And you now speak for all car buyers, or only MB buyers in knowing what they care about when they buy their high-end cars ?? I can imagine many high-end lux car buyers quite savvy about *some* of the news surrounding MB. And if they think such news is bad enough, they may buy something else. Hence the lower growth rate of the MB brand over the past 5 years compared to, say, Lexus.....And if MB believes SUV will help pad their sales at this day and age, ain't they a tad late, don't ya think ? especially with gas closing on $3 / gallon ??? Maybe diesel or hybrid option will be a *fuel* (no pun intended) for future growth, eh ?

    We've been over this all before. Now its gone from buyers to "some" buyers. Oac there is no evidence of this great buyer awareness of MB's management problems, only their reliability problems and even that hasn't produced this big downturn that you constantly predict. Now you say "some" buyers are savy to MB's corporate woes, then prove it. Where does it state this? Proof please, not guesses. We all know MB's reliablity standing with people who worship surveys is a factor, but this corporate stuff I need to see proof of it, not what he or she said, but stats that show this great awareness is causing such a downturn at MB in the showroom. If you're going to point to older models in the MB lineup and point to their sales, don't bother. Cars go through a natural up and down cycle with sales as they age and this happens at every car company on earth. If this great cloud over Mercedes was as big as you say it is, wouldn't the newly introduced models fail to outsell the model they replaced? Where is the proof that buyers care one bit about MB's CEO leaving? Not what an industry person says, I'm talking about Joe Buyer.

    What I find most interesting, thus far in your posts Merc1 is a failure to simply connect the dots... that there is this connection between MB issues and MB's overall market performance. Its real simple, u know. If u remain in doubt, re-read the post on the cause and effect eloquently written by our resident attorney, garyh.

    Because you haven't supplied any "dots" only hype. If you think that I think MB has no problems then you haven't been paying attention to my posts for months now. Just because I don't join in on the ridiculous hype followed by the gloom and doom forecast with MB's every move doesn't mean I think MB has no problems.

    The new S-Class' styling is a mistake. Have more models is a mistake. The CEO saying anything about their problems is a mistake. Any and everything MB does is a "serious mistake" or a critical error that will end the life of the world's oldest car brand by next year, which is probably not what you mean everytime out the gate, but it does read that way.

    In yours and Lenn's eyes Mercedes can do nothng right and that is where the objection from me comes in. You guys can't even admit the smallest little thing if it not in favor Lexus. Lexus is perfect and its all at the expense of MB.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I said: What I find most interesting, thus far in your posts Merc1 is a failure to simply connect the dots... that there is this connection between MB issues and MB's overall market performance...

    To which Merc1 replied: "Because you haven't supplied any "dots" only hype"

    To which I now give you Len's and syswei's posts detailing *some* of the dots.....

    1) You go from making $2.5bln a year to losing money in 3 years

    2) Your cars are placed at the lowest end of reliability studies and customer satisfaction studies when they historically occupied the exact opposite space

    3) Resale values have fallen through the floor when they were at the exact opposite end of the spectrum

    4) MB is being crimped on all sides - higher production costs, big warranty repair costs, retention writeoff because leased cars were worth a lot less than the lease retenion values, too big a line-up to maintain successfully, etc etc.

    5) in 1999, MB beat Lexus unit sales in the U.S., 189,000 units to 185,890, but in 2005, Lexus is on track to beat MB by 41% (per post 10088)

    6) MB and Lexus competed in SUVs in 1999, as they do now, yet the relative sales (cars+SUVs) have swung by 43% in Lexus' favor in the past 6 years

    Are these dots or are these hype, Merc1 ???
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    If you think MB prices are the same as Lexus, it will sell more than Lexus, then you really ARE not from this planet. People like me WILL still buy Lexus becuase of quality, reliability, etc. I didn't go from MB to Lexus because of price, I am actually richer now than before.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    That post was of substance, not nonesense and hype, you'll notice I didn't disagree with it either. Only the poorly concieved notions I take issue with...

    Just so we are clear on what you agreed with garyh about, here is excerpt of his first paragraph:

    Let me see if I can reconcile the arguments made here. I don't think ljflx or oac (highlights mine) are saying that people aren't buying MBs because the CEO got dumped. But they are saying that some people aren't buying MB cars because they are suffering from a reputation for unreliability, compared to their historical reputation for being "bullet-proof". That fact of people interested in reliability shying away from MB showrooms who otherwise would be buyers, the recalls, the increased cost of warranty repairs, etc., is what has affected Daimler Chrysler's profitability as a company, and ultimately led to the turnover in upper management...

    Is this the part you agree with, or is it nonsense and hype ???
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    1) You go from making $2.5bln a year to losing money in 3 years

    Big trouble for sure, now explain to me what would the average customer care if MB isnt in danger of going out business any time soon?

    2) Your cars are placed at the lowest end of reliability studies and customer satisfaction studies when they historically occupied the exact opposite space


    Another point that has been addressed over and over. This is problem too, trouble is it isn't having this great big effect on sales like you predict each and every spring when these surveys come out. Don't you realize that for a company to keep selling cars that not everyone cares about these surveys like you guys do? I really don't see what is so hard to understand about that. Everyone doesn't kneel at the alter of the survey, other MB and a whole host of others wouldn't be able to sell another car.

    3) Resale values have fallen through the floor when they were at the exact opposite end of the spectrum.

    A good example of hype. Reading that you'd think that MB has lowest resale going, yet when a poster here traded in their MB they were expecting to get nothing and were pleasantly surprised. Lenn gave some very biased numbers for his area, yet this is seen as gospel. These numbers were given for the E and S-Classes, yet models like the CLK retain more of their value than most other cars on the road, including Lexus. Is MB not in the top 5 of resale of any survey around for the brand? If they are then this is not "through the floor" which implies below everyone else. MB's resales have dropped, but they aren't "though the floor".

    4) MB is being crimped on all sides - higher production costs, big warranty repair costs, retention writeoff because leased cars were worth a lot less than the lease retenion values, too big a line-up to maintain successfully, etc etc.

    Old news and this true of most German car companies, regarding high production costs. They all share that problem. Now the comment about MB having a lineup they can't maintain is an interesting one. Please explain. I'd love to know which Benz it is that they can't "maintain" successfully.

    5) in 1999, MB beat Lexus unit sales in the U.S., 189,000 units to 185,890, but in 2005, Lexus is on track to beat MB by 41% (per post 10088)

    So what? There are many factors in this. Price being but one of them. Lexus is the SUV champ and thus outsells everyone because of it. This broad statement about Lexus' sales implies that everything they sell is some sort of sales hit when we all know that isn't true.

    6) MB and Lexus competed in SUVs in 1999, as they do now, yet the relative sales (cars+SUVs) have swung by 43% in Lexus' favor in the past 6 years.

    Really? I still haven't seen the numbers to support this. Surely you've researched and verified this claim right? Until the effect of price is factored in and able to be measured here this is more of the same to me.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    . But they are saying that some people aren't buying MB cars because they are suffering from a reputation for unreliability, compared to their historical reputation for being "bullet-proof".

    This is the part I agree with, for people who are heavily into surveys. What you don't get is that not everyone is. If they were then MB wouldn't be able to get a new product launch off the ground with any success. When are you going to realize that not everyone worships surveys and uses them as the last word in their car buying decisions?

    Until you can tell me what percentage of buyers actually said that these surveys turned them off from MB or any other troubled brand all this guessing about who didn't buy what is just that, guessing.

    You seem to think I have this perfect image of MB, and as others have stated, I don't. I just don't share the ridicuouls exegerrations put out here, something that post doesn't do.

    Generally I agree with ljflx's take on the business side, again its the notion that buyers care about such things (past reliablity surveys) is where I will never be convinced.

    M
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    What's not logical? I got stuck on the side of the road before with my MB. That's why I won't buy MB again. You mean it's not logical when someone doesn't buy MB again after he or she got burned? Then give me some logic that why I should buy MB again?
  • kgakga Member Posts: 23
    What is your point?

    In area where I live, Lexus cars are used by driving schools for beginners and by taxicab companies.
    Does it bother you?
  • jtbenzjtbenz Member Posts: 29
    Hmm interesting comparison considering the LS and the S are not in the same price range. Lets compare the LS with a Benz with a similar price the C55 AMG. At a cost of about $55K the C-55 will do 0-60 in 4.9 secs. The C55 is a little smaller but will smoke anything made by Toyota including your precious LS. And the C55 isn't Mercedes fastest car by a long shot.
    It really is shocking, Toyota doesn't make anything that can compete with the C55 in performance at any size or price range in the U.S. (I don't know what they sell in Japan.)
    Toyota does not seem to be positioning itself as a performance car maker, it rather seems to be aiming at making reliable, practical, people movers.
    And if you want to compare the best large luxury sedans from the two lines Mercedes wins easily. Lexus has nothing that comes close to the V-12 twin turbo of the S-65.
    Also the LS is a brand new model, the new S is coming out early next year and from what I hear it is going to be a technological marvel, so we will have to wait and see which new model is better.
    And if you have forgotton or haven't read my earlier posts I am not a big fan of large cars, so I really have little interest in the S or the LS..
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    You keep saying the average customer doesn't care about this or that when they buy a vehicle. I am an average customer, so are many who got burned like yourself. I am not willing to get burned again, why should you?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Lets see... you ask for dots and I provide them and you moan again ?

    So you have no issues with MB losing BILLIONS over a 3-year period. That is not an issue of market performance impacting buyers, eh ? With a money-losing venture would MB be able to afford some niceties for its high-end buyers ?

    You state that poor reliability has no great effect on sales, yet MB is not growing as much as its competition, in a growing market. And you don't see the link ?

    You say that resale value of CLK is high, right ? Well, how many CLKs do MB sell a year compared to how many C, E or S ? Get the point ???

    MB's production issues... let's move on...

    Unit sales... Lexus' have been buoyed by SUVs no doubt. But where was MB when the market was screaming for SUV ? Failed leadership, don't you think ? MB is in the business of making money, yet they failed to properly read the market pulse wrt SUVs. Their half-hearted attempt for the ML showed in poor reliability. Now that gas prices are through the roof, Lexus is moving to hybrid, correctly anticipating the market, once again. Try buying a Prius at your local dealership and see the waiting list.

    And finally, on the sales gains by Lexus over MB over the past 6 years. You want me to provide the numbers again ? Did you not read the numbers provided by syswei already ? Or you no longer believe in numbers ????

    I have no problem with MB. I wish them well... These long debate is about why MB is no longer the defacto *must have* brand. I say it once again: the market has spoken, and the trends are undeniable. I do not expect MB to go out of business, but if they continue this destructive path, then they would be in danger. Who knows, maybe Chrysler may end up owning MB in the near future !!! Stranger things have happened, you know....
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Becasue those cars are reliable. Does it bother you they are more reliable?
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    I didn't get your point the first time. The point is the people in Hong Kong who ride in MBs is becasue of luxury, not because of sportiness. My folks ride in MBs, but I drive a BMW.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    jt: u compare a C55 to an LS430 because of price ? Would you compare a $55K E320 with a $55K Boxter S ? Are these comparable cars to you just bcos they are similarly priced ? BTW, how many of that precious C55 are produced ? How many S600 are produced ? These are limited production cars that u are using against mainstream high volume cars. The LS compares head-to-head with an S-class. That the former is cheaper has nothing to do with it being an inferior product; to the contrary, that the S- is more expensive has more to do with the inefficient cost structure of MB. So price has nothing to do with it....
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Generally I agree with ljflx's take on the business side, again its the notion that buyers care about such things (past reliablity surveys) is where I will never be convinced."

    OK. I can understand the latter part of your post and it's a subjective issue. So let's let it go at that. My point was/is all the negativity takes its toll and that's my subjective and gut feeling. It's like unneeded bad advertising. On the opposite end of the spectrum I never believed Audi had a real acceleration problem in the 80's yet all those news reports took their toll heavily. I actually agree with you on the CEO issue. I don't even know Toyota's CEO or even a top officer. But seeing a CEO fired and one as abruptly as Schrempp was, with a salary cutoff is a big confirmation of the quality issues. It's also a confirmation - in other ways - that MB is trying to truly fix them now as opposed to the sterile BS statement the execs made over the past 2 years.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    People in the market for LS class are not comparing it to C class. I will let it go since you ARE young.
  • jtbenzjtbenz Member Posts: 29
    Do you just make stuff up because it sounds good? I have never heard that rear driven cars have a significant disadvantage in cabin noise when compared to front drive cars. The drivetrain takes some interior cabin space away but noise is not a common weakness. To illustrate my point, just try to find any car over $50K with front drive.
    Front wheel drive cars do have their advantages, they are simple and cheaper to manufacture and are generally better in the snow. They are practical but are less refined and have lower performance.
    And your argument about the cost of a new focus against an old 190 is absurd. A new focus also costs more than a 2000 Lexus ES300. And Toyota's competitor to the Benz at the time, the Cressida, is worth less than half of a 190 of the same year.
    And uniformed one, let me try to explain this again, rear drive cars can place its front wheels farther to the front of the car than front drive cars. Front drive cars have to have the front axle positioned under the engine so in any front drive car you will see a lot of car in front of the front axle giving the car less grip and making the car nose heavy.
    In most, not all, but in most read drive cars, especially performance models, the front wheels are usually as far in front of the car as possible. Usually only the bumper is in front of the tires.
    One other point that I failed to mention earlier, by having the front wheels drive and turn the engine, if forces the tires to do two things and greatly reduces the grip when accelerating out of turns.
    And you are mistaken about the condition of my 190 if you think a base ford focus can beat my 190 on an autocross course.
    In all my times at the track I have never seen anyone with the guts to bring a front drive car on the autocross.
    You really need to think and check your facts before posting.
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