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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Yes, you did. Dewey: "my 2003 530SP has been as faultless as any Lexus could hope to be, not to mention more enjoyable to drive!"

    Nope, wrong identity that was not me who said that! Just like this other person I can tell you my BMW can out-Lexus any Lexus in terms of reliability!

    Your doubts about CR data does not extend to Lexus models but only to BMW models! Interesting, dont you think??"

    Can you point out an example of this?


    You suggestion that the 98 BMW5 series is unreliable despite a CR rating of average reliablity!


    So, I guess you're saying that all of the trouble I had with my '91 300E and '93 400SEL was all imaginary?

    Show me one sentence where I boasted about MB reliability post-1983 model year?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Lexusguy?

    These stats mean nothing unless you tell me what years they represent! Is this just for the 97 model year?
    Do these stats include the horrendously unreliable BMW 7 series?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The stats include all BMW models, ranging from their last redesign to present.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    The Lexus-attraction for many fourm members is based on irrational FEAR! The key motivator for buying a Lexus is the fear of being stuck in a isolated dark lonely roadside or to spend a big portion of the day visiting overpriced repair shops!! Unfortunately such notions are FALSE since such events can happen to any car including non-BMWs!

    It is a shame that such fears will deprive so many forum members here from driving a car that they truly and passionately want to drive.


    I agree with you. I wouldn't reject the BMW 5-series based solely on reliability concerns. I rejected it based on the size of the back seat and the spartan interior. Please note that the Bimmer relevant for this forum (see listing at top) is the 7 series, not the 5. Admittedly, a properly equipped 5 is a great-driving car. But it won't carry my business associates and my teenagers in anywhere near the same comfort level in the back seat as the LS does.

    Now I chose the LS over the 7 on numerous grounds, including styling, the electronics package, reliability (see both CR and JDP data - it's pretty disconcerting to say the least), and value. Oh, and I've owned a 7 series, so I can speak from real world experience as to the good and bad of the car.

    Bottom line: I agree properly equipped 3 or 5 series are great driving sedans and are reasonably reliable. But the 7 can't be thrown around in any near the same manner as its two smaller cousins, and its reliability is below acceptability to me. And I dislike its looks, although that's just IMO.

    The S is the only car I rejected in this class based solely on reliability. And I'll stand by that decision until MB can prove it makes a reasonably reliable car.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    In other words what you are saying is consistent with what I have been repetitively saying all along:

    BMW3/5 series are not unreliable cars and cannot be proven to be unreliable based on statistics.

    The only way you can prove BMW as unreliable is if you add in the 7 series and x5 models.

    Show me a post where I boasted about the reliability of any other BMW than the BMW3/5 series?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Now I chose the LS over the 7 on numerous grounds

    I would have made the same choice! But in my case I have a bias towards smaller cars since I really do not need the space.

    Since the BMW 7 series is relevant for this forum, I will respectfully withdraw from this forum since defending the reliability of the 7 series would be Alamo-like.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    defending the reliability of the 7 series would be Alamo-like

    Reliability isn't everything, even to a Lexus owner. High on my personal priority list is luxury.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    I will respectfully withdraw from this forum since defending the reliability of the 7 series would be Alamo-like.

    Please don't leave...we need the input of BMW enthusiasts here! And like syswei says, reliability isn't everything (although it's high on my personal list). How about defending the 7 on its status as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" amongst its direct competitors?

    In any case, I'll personally continue to enjoy your posts about BMW in general and the 5 in particular in the Luxury Performance Sedans forum.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    This is just imho but the title of the forum is "marques" not "models"...it really sounds more like the "brands" should be under discussion, not just the 7/LS/S etc.

    Moderator?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Actually I'm glad that some BMW fans have joined the forum. Welcome! When I see MB fans repeatedly deride Lexus for not being sporty enough for their tastes, I always wonder, why are these guys not BMW fans?

    Thats because Mercedes has always been in the middle of a BMW and a Lexus in terms of sportiness. Most Mercedes buyers don't want the full on sportiness of a BMW, but they don't want the Toyota/Buick like drive/feel of the any Lexus outside of the new GS/IS either. There is always more control in the German car or more importantly the feel of more control than you get in Lexus' core models like the LS and ES. Now the GS and IS are sportier models supposedly chasing after BMW, but they don't hit the mark there either.

    BTW, I like all three German luxury car makes.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Thats because Mercedes has always been in the middle of a BMW and a Lexus in terms of sportiness....

    Hate to get in the middle of a food fight, but I'd argue that the word *sport* and the cars we debate on this forum - S, 7, A8 and LS - do not belong. So I'd suggest we eschew the word *sport* from this forum permanently, imo, cos no one buys these large sedans because of their *sportiness*....
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    This is true, except for in the case of an odd 750i Sport buyer, but the difference mentioned in my above post is in fact there and it is a factor to some buyers. A luxury car can still give a great ride and be somewhat fun to drive. It doesn't have to float and keel to give a good ride either, the S-Class proves that. Now when Lexus makes this new LS more roadworthy without ruining the ride you'll all of sudden see the point.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "How about defending the 7 on its status as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" amongst its direct competitors?"

    Invalid, because that would be the 5 series, if any. The 7 is strictly a status symbol, IMO. It's too complex to even drive without a training course - how can that be the ultimate driving machine? :confuse:
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    "How about defending the 7 on its status as the "Ultimate Driving Machine" amongst its direct competitors?"

    It isnt. The Maserati Quattroporte owns that title. Compared to the Maser's Ferrari V8 and F1 gearbox, the BMW is hardly an "ultimate" anything.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    i think more accurately it should be....nobody on this forum purchases
    a Lexus with sportiness in mind.

    the S, 7, & A8 all have packages and
    variations in model to add more "sport" to the equation. just because these
    automobiles aren't pint sized or mid sized doesn't mean they can't be driven
    with a lot of enthusiasm.

    when i purchased my 05 A8 sportiness played a large factor in the decision.
    the model i purchased is the short wheel base version. it is incredibly nimble
    but at the same time gives you the width and comfort of a larger sedan. all that
    and you can still sit comfortably in the back seat.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    However you want to look at it but I'd bet that 5% or less of the people that buy any of these cars are looking for sportiness and I'm talking flagship cars here.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Blah blah blah blah...... I'm still waiting for someone to reply.

    As I said in my earlier post, "There's a ton of talk about "when you're out of warranty" or "long term."

    If there are just a small percentage of people that keep their cars beyond the warranty period, then there are only a very small percentage that truly need to worry about the cost of reliability.

    And, as I also said in my earlier post..... "Perhaps these Edmunds forums attract that remaining 20%.... or perhaps just those that need to find something negative on BMW, et al."
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    If there are just a small percentage of people that keep their cars beyond the warranty period, then there are only a very small percentage that truly need to worry about the cost of reliability.

    Here's a reply from "someone": What do you think happens to cars when they go off lease - do they get tossed into the ocean? These cars get passed on to other owners, only some of which are under manufacturer certified extended warranties. And even those extended warranties are limited in time and coverage; for example, most don't cover electronics, which is what is most likely to break in these cars. Reliability is very relevant to these owners.

    Second, how do you think lease rates are set? Are residual values related to how these cars will hold up 3, 4 or 5 years after initial purchase? You better believe it.

    Third, even if a repair is covered under warranty, I for one don't want to spend my free time dealing with service departments. And if I buy (or lease) an $80,000 S, I don't want to be driving some lesser loaner car while the dealer tries to figure out what's wrong with my car. Read the forums for some of these cars (MB especially), and you'll see people disgusted with the time they don't even have their new cars because they are in the shop.

    Finally, I am one of those people who want to keep their cars beyond any warranty, so it is very relevant to me. And I don't believe MB would be going through the management changes and financial difficulties it is if these reliability issues were just the imagination of a few posters on this forum.

    So the lack of reliability is in fact relevant to a lot of people, including 8,500 former Mercedes employees that are losing their jobs.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    …I'd argue that the word *sport* and the cars we debate on this forum - S, 7, A8 and LS - do not belong.

    Compared to the Maser's Ferrari V8 and F1 gearbox, the BMW is hardly an "ultimate" anything.

    However you want to look at it but I'd bet that 5% or less of the people that buy any of these cars are looking for sportiness and I'm talking flagship cars here.


    Spoken like true Lexicans. Poor sport sedan ain’t good fuh nuttin. In that case I guess the Quattroporte was a blunder. Ditto the 7 and the MB tuners.

    Not only do you guys not appreciate what a sport sedan is, I doubt whether you even know what it is. The closest some of you guys have come to acknowledging the existence of a sport sedan is by saying it makes your teeth rattle. Well have this for breakfast now that you have ruined mine… In comparison to the 7 the LS is nothing more than a Lincoln Town Car and DeVille. Don’t even talk to me about fit finish and reliability because it doesn’t apply to this particular topic.

    This place needs is a couple of 7owners. Lexicans don’t know sport. Period.

    Ever wonder why the LS sport package doesn’t sell? Because Lexicans don’t know sport. There’s no use, we live on two different planets.

    ;-)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Spoken like true Lexicans. Poor sport sedan ain’t good fuh nuttin. In that case I guess the Quattroporte was a blunder. Ditto the 7 and the MB tuners."

    You must be in a bad mood today. Let's add up the volume of those car sales in the segment and see if we get over 5%.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "If there are just a small percentage of people that keep their cars beyond the warranty period, then there are only a very small percentage that truly need to worry about the cost of reliability."

    Why do you think MB resale values have fallen so far. The market for three year old MB's is quite weak. So.stop worrying about the cost of reliablility but start worrying about the value of your car. As the man said - you can pay me now or you can pay me later.

    So here you go:

    An S500 after 3 years:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/mercedesbenz/sclass/100003445/prices.html

    An S430 after 3 years:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/mercedesbenz/sclass/100003444/prices.html

    An LS430 after 3 years:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/lexus/ls430/100003418/prices.html

    A 7-series after 3 years:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/bmw/7series/100070588/prices.html

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/bmw/7series/100070589/prices.html

    An A8 after 3 years:

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/audi/a8/100003619/prices.html

    http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/audi/a8/100003620/prices.html

    Let's remember the LS430 in this comparison is a $60K car vs. 75-85K for the others when new.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You must be in a bad mood today.

    Nah, just stirring the sauce, making sure the sahzeeches don't stick to the bottom of the pot.

    Let's add up the volume of those car sales in the segment and see if we get over 5%.

    I'm waiting.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Not my job. Let someone disprove it. But you have about 80,000 cars in the segment so you need to be north of 4,000. Wherever it lands it'll still be a tiny minority.

    Hey - you went BMW and those resales blow away Audi and MB.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Well, the 7 alone did 12,773 YTD in September. That's approximately 16%.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That is hardly a tuned car or a true sports sedan.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I knew you would say something like that. I beg to differ. Read the reviews. The 7 is the sport sedan in this class and the A8 is right behind it. And when talking "tuning" throw the suspensions in there not just the engines. As a matter of fact, to the pure driver the suspension/steering is the most important part. MB does power, BMW does suspension and steering. Ask any 7 owner why they chose it over MB and Lexus and you will get one answer across the board... it's the ride.

    BMW does sport. Even the X3 ride blows away every SUV IMO with the excetion of the FX and Cayenne S close behind. And soon they will have a crossover, minivan, or whatever you want to call it, and I GUARANTEE it will blow away everything in its class when it comes to the sport ride. Furthermore, it will be the first vehicle in that class to even have the sport ride.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    YTD through September, 5.7% of 3-series sales are of the M3, and .014% of 5-series sales are of the M5. They don't even make a M7, of course.

    The numbers are somewhat unfair as presented as I believe both are based on the old platforms. So looking back at CY 2004, it was 7.4% for the M3 and 0.7% for the M5. For CY 2003, 7.2% for the M3 and 3.1% for the M5.

    My guess is that AMG numbers would probably be no higher.

    The numbers speak for themselves, and suggest that few sedan buyers are interested in getting as much sport as they possibly can. Rather, 95+% of buyers want some mix of sport and luxury. If their preference is a little more sport (but not ultimate sport), they'll buy a non-M BMW; if they want a little less, they'll buy a non-AMG MB or a Lexus.

    IMHO there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the ideal tradeoff between sport and luxury. It comes down to personal preference. Merc1 seems to think that MB presents the ideal balance between sport and luxury. A BMW owner thinks BMW presents the ideal balance. Each is right with respect to their own personal preference. But neither has the right to decide what is right for everyone.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    there is an interesting article over at Autoweek.com about the upcoming LS.
    the designer mentions a couple of points. first they want the new LS to
    have more sporting character and the second is how they are trying
    to move Lexus from a luxury brand to a prestige brand. coming from the
    guy who is designing the car this says quite a bit. first he is acknowledging
    that the LS is not completely reaching the target audience Lexus wants and
    second that BMW and MB are still considered higher up on the automotive
    totem pole.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    INHO there is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the ideal tradeoff between sport and luxury.

    I totally agree and would never argue that point. But the basis of my contention goes back to Oac saying…

    …I'd argue that the word *sport* and the cars we debate on this forum - S, 7, A8 and LS - do not belong.

    And the ultimate dis by Lexusguy…

    Compared to the Maser's Ferrari V8 and F1 gearbox, the BMW is hardly an "ultimate" anything.

    …because if I recall correctly, the reviews of the Quattroporte’s handling weren’t exactly glowing, plus the high revving engine and sequential gearbox in that thing don’t even belong on street cars in my opinion. BMW and Mercedes have the best formula for real-world engines.

    BMW doesn’t claim to be the ultimate LUXURY car, just the ultimate DRIVING machine with regard to SEDANS (it also applies to the SUVs), which is an accolade created not by themselves, rather by their buyers long ago. And compared with most of the real-world sedans in production, it is right on the money.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Some of the 7-series drivers I get behind are as conservative and slow as it gets. So I'd beg to differ. I have no doubt the 7 handles real well and better than an LS but I doubt people bought it just for that reason.
  • docnukemdocnukem Member Posts: 485
    If they are that slow and conservative, yet want the space and the luxury, maybe BMW should come out with a 725--the platinum slug.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Some of the 7-series drivers I get behind are as conservative and slow as it gets.

    I’ve driven behind people in 911 Turbos who clog traffic. That’s not the point. There are plenty of slow-driving old people who love BMWs because the ride feels taught and secure to them. I’ve said this long ago and I’ll say it again, a car with a sportier suspension is also safer vehicle, and plenty of slow-driving people know it and feel it.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Not only do you guys not appreciate what a sport sedan is, I doubt whether you even know what it is. The closest some of you guys have come to acknowledging the existence of a sport sedan is by saying it makes your teeth rattle...

    The 7 is the sport sedan in this class and the A8 is right behind it...


    Designman: I'll second Len and say you probably started Monday on a sour note ;) How so ? We Lexicans (your word) don't understand or know what sport is ??? Now let me turn the question around: can you define for us what *sport* is ?

    Oh, just this past Saturday I was out to a BMW shop driving one of the ultimate sport sedans they have, a 330i, with SP, run-flats, low profile tires, fully sport-tuned car. Retailed at $45K and change. That was a sporty car, small, nimble, tuned to the heavens for sportiness...very very nice ride, taut and wound so tight I thought the steering was going to snap in my fingers... I put it through its paces.... uphills, twisties, straightaways, etc... my average speed on the test drive was ~80mph (higher in some places). Loved the car, but not the price. Just for the heck of it, took out an equally tuned IS350 with the 18" low-profile tires. Well, I wish you'd seen me in these two cars on the roads, you'd understand why I was grinnng from ear to ear... Not the sign of someone who doesn't know sporty cars, eh ???

    Now a 7-series is sporty ???? Ditto an A8 ??? Based on what ? a 19" wheel package ? A SWB trim ? Geez, let's see why someone wants to spend $80 large on a full-size family sedan because its sporty ??? That's the realm of Porsche's and M3/M5/645i/Z etc...

    Sorry if you are having a bad morning... how can I make it better ???
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Sorry if you are having a bad morning... how can I make it better ???

    Just agree with me… hmm… nope, on second thought, just keep debating, it’s no fun hitting a tennis ball back and forth against a wall ;-)

    can you define for us what *sport* is?

    Yeah I will do it later on… gotta get out of here. Keep in mind, you can’t compare any car in this class to the smaller cars. You can only compare them to each other. These cars are literally two-ton lizzies.

    For starters, go behind any BMW and observe the rear wheel camber. They have a healthy (sporty) dose of negative camber. This is most easily observed on the X5 because of its ground clearance and large wheels.

    (Some may ask, what’s negative camber? When viewed from behind the car, the top of the wheels tilt inward like the sides of the letter A.)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Designman, over on the 2007 Lexus LS board, we're still waiting for your esteemed opinion on the styling of the LF-Sh. A great look at the car can be seen at http://lexus.jp/ms/ , click "LF-SH" at the top, then "movie" at the bottom and finally one of the choices under "booth" on the left.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    The Japanese are known for being very Modest...

    BMW is what it is a Drivers Car ...If luxury is what you want buy Lexus if you want a Drivers Car...buy BMW

    MB is a Luxury car that is not very reliable...If you want an expensive car with lots of prestige and state of the art features that often work, buy MB...If you want Luxury and Reliability..With state of the art Audio, Ride, Quiet and interior...buy Lexus.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Designman:

    It am surprised you left the Lexus engine out of your comment...It compares to Mercedes and BMW engines with Approx 330+ HP vrs its 290 HP. Yet Its 0-60 times at 5.9Sec is faster then the BMW, Mercedes and Audi A-8 for that matter...

    It is the Cleanest engine of the group ....It is the most reliable engine of the group.

    In light of all that do you really think the BMW and Mercedes have the Best Formuals for real world engines ...and WHY?
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    I don't think Lexus has ever aspired to be the Japanese BMW...That is more up Infiniti's alley. I agree with the other "Lexicans" in the sense that none of these cars are "true" sport sedans (Maybe the XJR might be). If sport is desired why not go for a M3/5 or AMG MB?

    Also keep in mind the average age of the drivers who own these sort of cars. Aren't they all in their mid 50's? I don't see too many 35 yr olds desiring to own a 7 Series, S Class or LS430. They'd probably go for a 540,GS, AMG E..

    I still think cramming these cars with HP and electronics is a big mistake..My LS430 is more than enough for me. What's the point of 350 HP in a LS460? As it is, you can't even drive in MA beyond 65 MPH without getting a ticket. Somehow I don't see many people like me drag racing some kid in a Camaro or Mustang..Though I admit, I did do that when I got my latest LS430...It is funny to see the look on their face when a "Old Geezer's car" beats them cleanly at a stoplight.

    SV
  • killerbunnykillerbunny Member Posts: 141
    second that BMW and MB are still considered higher up on the automotive
    totem pole.


    I personally think Lexus is more prestigious than BMW or MB.

    Why? I think prestige is NOT defined by the most expensive car a company produces---even some Korean or Chinese makers can build a limo if they want. It's the basic car, the bread&butter car that matters. I don't feel like buying a MB S600 knowing that millions of A-class cars are on the streets. Lexus at least starts with IS, the equivalent of C-class.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Prestige totem pole still is:

    1) MB
    2) BMW
    3) Lexus
    4) Audi
    5) Infiniti/Acura

    Prestige is all about name recognition. A good measure of brand recognition is the prestige premium.

    For similarly equipped cars, MB charges the most, then BMW.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Lexus at least starts with IS, the equivalent of C-class.

    Umm, what about the ES?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I'm not sure what your point is. The ES, despite its Camry roots, is still a well above $30K car. Lexus does not sell a car below $30K. Audi, BMW, and Mercedes do.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    You said that Lexus starts at the bottom with the IS..... My point was that the ES is the bottom.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    I don't feel like buying a MB S600 knowing that millions of A-class cars are on the streets.

    The A-Class isn't here in North America. Conversely, they don't have Escalades over in Europe. ;) In Europe there isn't the notion that "if you have a small, economic model in your portfolio, then your whole brand image is diminished." It's all about size and gas......

    If Lexus wants to enter and establish themselves in the European market, then they, too, will need a small little economic car for that populous market. Just like MB/BMW/Audi, Lexus wouldn't be looked at as a "lesser" brand because of it.... The Europeans embrace those small, economic cars. Us Americans look at it as "cheap and wussy." :)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Lots of familar (old) themes being tossed around I see.

    How many Lexus fans here have even driven a 745/750i Sport to even know if the car is tuned for sport? I wonder why most magazines that like softer riding cars like the S-Class, LS, and XJ almost always complain about the 7-Series Sport's ride? The car is set up as a sporty sedan in its segment, more so than any non AMG S, A8 or non "R" XJ. The upcoming S8 will soon join the upcoming S63 as the sporty (if not outright sports sedans) in this class. Claiming what buyers buy these cars for don't change what they are.

    Lexus being more prestigious than Mercedes and BMW. Is this supposed to be funny? A company that doesn't even control their own home market ain't got no prestige over Europe's ruling luxury car markers - Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Imagine the laughter if Mercedes and BMW were outsold by Lexus in Europe and Germancarfans were to come here and say that MB/BMW are more prestigious. Lexus didn't even become "Lexus" in their own country of origin until this year, yet they're supposed to have some type of prestige over Mercedes and BMW.
    Mercedes and BMW building/selling/marketing their A/B and 1-Series cars has not made a radiator grille of difference in their prestige anywhere in the world where they are sold along side those S600s, SLRs, 760Lis, M5s, M6s, 550is and SL65s. This is nothing more than a made up excuse (reaching) to give Lexus some type of advantage because in reality Mercedes makes buses, garbage trucks, taxicabs, and Unimogs, yet that S600 still gets the top spot (unless their is a Rolls or Bentley around) in front of wherever it is parked.

    Another myth - Mercedes cheapest car is the $29,975 C230 sedan, the truly under 30K hatchback has been gone for a year, and you aren't going to find many 2006 C230s around with non options clinging to that base price. Funny thing is Lexus sells the nearly identical (in hp/price etc.) IS250 for $605 dollars more (30,580) yet that isn't seen as cheap car? Neither car is going to be found in great numbers at those prices. We all know this. Yet if there is a base IS250 or C230 sitting around, they both have a chance at actually selling for less than the magical and oh so prestigious 30K pricepoint.

    bdr127,

    Oh don't worry Lexus understands this hence the little 4-cylinder diesel IS model over there, like all those smaller engined C,3,A4 models.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I wonder why they took it upon themselves to change the name for the U.S. market only? Doesn't make sense for them (MBUSA) to do that imo.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I wonder why most magazines that like softer riding cars like the S-Class, LS, and XJ almost always complain about the 7-Series Sport's ride? The car is set up as a sporty sedan in its segment, more so than any non AMG S, A8 or non "R" XJ. The upcoming S8 will soon join the upcoming S63 as the sporty (if not outright sports sedans) in this class. Claiming what buyers buy these cars for don't change what they are.

    And how many S8 or S63 sales would be made again ????

    Lexus being more prestigious than Mercedes and BMW. Is this supposed to be funny? A company that doesn't even control their own home market ain't got no prestige over Europe's ruling luxury car markers - Mercedes-Benz and BMW.

    Let's face it, MBs and BMWs derive a huge chunk of their Euro sales from low end 3 and C-class cars that are mostly used as sherpas.... taxi cabs, I mean.. These cars litter the streets of Europe - vinyl seats, no A/C, manual windows, steel wheel covers, pretty much bare-bones... All of which counts towards MB and BMWs *prestige*, eh ? Oh, but here in NA, they market them exclusively as luxury brands... Good marketing that's all...

    Yes, MB and BMW are pretigious brands, no doubt, but to make them into these super brands is a myth, especially these days. Notice how the new GS is priced close to the comparable MBs and BMWs. How about the new IS and its MB and BMW competition... practically about same. Does that tell you something ???

    Lexus didn't even become "Lexus" in their own country of origin until this year, yet they're supposed to have some type of prestige over Mercedes and BMW.

    The kinda of sentiment MB had back in 1989. Continue the sarcasm...
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Second, how do you think lease rates are set? Are residual values related to how these cars will hold up 3, 4 or 5 years after initial purchase? You better believe it.

    And which brand has the #1 residual value? Hint: the first initial is B and they are from Bavaria.

    Which BMWs maintain the best resale values: Certainly not the most reliable among them which are the family of 3 series cars. It is the BMW 7 and 5 series that have the best residual values ! Yes, the BMW 7 series! Which coincidentally is the whipping boy among you CR obsessesed Lexus fans!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    This Lexus mania with reliability is like some contagious virus! I myself was afflicted with this virus and if you want proof look at my dozen or so posts in this forum. Every single one is about reliability. I call this obsession with reliability insanity!

    I mean c'mon this is a luxury marque forum dealing with exciting premium priced sport-luxury vehicles! So what do you guys focus on most: Which car has the most refined lavish interior? Nope! Which car is the most driveable and exciting? Nope! Which car has the best fit and finish quality? Nope! Which car has the best aesthetic styling? Nope! Which car is most reliable? Yes, yes, yes and yes again!

    If this was a Hyundai forum where fans boast about the awesome reliability stats their Korean cars are receiving from CR/JD Power, I would not be surprised at all!

    But for God's sake this is not a Hyundai forum, remember? This is a LUXURY MARQUE FORUM! Why on earth spend money on a premium priced Lexus when you can get a Hyundai and rave in Hyundai forums about good CR stats!
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