High End Luxury Cars

carphart · June 2001

The Lexus LS430 has set it own mark, although it is pretty unexciting. It is generic and derivative in its looks. I think that the new Infiniti Q45 has taken a pretty bold stab at offering a lot of goodies and horsepower for a lot less money than an S Class, Audi A-8, or Jag XJS! Ironically, the Q45 is priced more in line the the Mercedes E class, and not the S class.

ripinrocket · June 2001

It is hardly ironic that the Q45 is priced in line with the E-class. Infiniti must price it at that level to make to sell it. Without marketing it primarily as a value product, they would sell few if any Q45's .

bitkahuna · June 2001

[I was about to say that the S-Class seems to be taller than the LS430 from comparing specs on Edmunds, but now looking at Lexus' own web site, it looks like Edmunds has the wrong dimensions for the LS430 (I THINK THEY'VE USED THE IS300 SPECS!!!! - HOSTS????)]

By looking at each manufacturer's respective sites instead, I see that the LS is one inch taller, but 6 inches shorter than the S, which would explain why it 'looks' taller. As far as headroom, you get 1/2 or 2 inches more in the LS depending on whether you get the sunroof (of course most will, so it's only 1/2 inch more headroom).

It's amazing then how much room there is inside an LS430, and it has a bigger trunk than the S (20 vs 15 cu ft)

It's also 1 typical male (180lbs) lighter.

(FYI, just looked at the prior gen. S-Class, and it has 1/2" more headroom than the new one.)

I think these numbers support my theory.

fenn · June 2001

Thank you for that point. There is a wide range of cars, spanning about $15k of price differential in this group of cars. The new Q45 is actually closer in price with the E class Mercedes and 5 series BMW...

fenn · June 2001

There is no doubt tht Infiniti is fighting an uphill battle. And ripinricket may be right about the value car part. Although on a more empirical basis, I trust the opinion of Road and Track about the virtues of the new Q45...

ripinrocket · June 2001

Size wise, performance wise, features wise it's close to a S-class(exception being trunk). But price it's priced with a E430, 540i, STS.

Infiniti must present it as a oustanding value, and one way of doing that is by pricing it in E-class territory. A Q45 sure as hell wouldn't sell at $70K. It's having a hard enough time getting noticed at $55k>

arcoates · June 2001

And neither would a Lexus LS430. If it was priced like an S430 it wouldn't sell so well~ A.R.

merc1 · June 2001

But what is even more remarkable is for the new S to have only one inch less headroom than the old car, which was talller on the outside. The Benz design is very much functional.

Infiniti isn't going to sell many Q45s at any price it's too ugly, and doesn't seem to perform as well as 340hp should.

M

mvargo1 · June 2001

I assume that the "doesn't perform as well as 340 HP should" is a referance to the moter trend compro. Nevermind that later in the article it was stated that they used a preproduction car that was not up to full performance.

Interesting side note the only sound system better than the Mark Levinson designed 11 speaker system (according to Moter Trend) was the 300W Bose/Infiniti audio system in the new Q.

Sometimes the Q does not look like a $53,000 car. With the Titanium exterior and the willow/blond wood interior that they had at the NY auto show it looks like an $70,000 one instead.

The Q has been a $50,000 car for years it just is finally worth that.

I think the new LS is still the uglyness leader in this catagory.

merc1 · June 2001

Really, ok...I haven't seen any other numbers for it yet. Does anybody know what Road and Track said about the new Q. The mailman hasn't brought my issue yet. I hate this waiting game he plays with the magazines....

M

carphart · June 2001

OK, so the new Q45 has its own look. I happen to think it looks pretty cool. Some just do not like it. Fair enough. The fact is that it still represents a good value and a great option in this group of automobiles.

By the way, I just looked at the Edmund's profiles of those that seem to be bashing it the most, and they seem to be driving Mitsubishis and Hondas....hmm? When I drove a Honda I dreamed of a Mercedes or BMW too. I finally got a 740i a few years ago (although, my wife has a '98 Q45). I think that I am somewhat objective, and I am quite impressed with the new Q45. The more choices that we have in fine automobiles, the better off that we will be. Competition is good. The 340 horsepower in the new Infiniti will only push the other manufacturers to offer more in the future! That is good for everybody.

ripinrocket · June 2001

I drive a Honda and my wife drives a 2000 BMW 323i which I drive quite frequently.

Besides you don't have to own a Q45 or a lS430, or a 740il to give opinions about it. do you own all the cars you talk about?

logic1 · June 2001

Merc1:

Did not get R&T yet, but July Motortrend with a comparo of the new Q, Ls430, Vanden Plas, A8, the base S, and the Seville STS arrived last night. The Q held up well, overall, but there were some serious complaints. The reviewers feel that either Nissan got the horsepower wrong or the drivetrain was not right for the engine. Nissan's response was that the testers were pre-production models. MT was going to reserve final comment until it got a production model. MT also said that the instrumentation panel and navigation equipment was difficult to use, a complaint they usually reserve for the Mercedes.

The Mercedes came out on top overall. MT really blasted the Ls430's styling and ride, but praised the luxury, overall performance and stereo. The A8 did very well, as did the Jag.

Interestingly, the STS which was priced almost 30k less than the Jag and 15k less than the cheapest of the other four, did the best time on the skid pad and came close to the top in acceleration and braking distance. MT thought the STS wanted in luxury and ride feel compared to the others but gave it a lot of respect, especially considering the cost.

fenn · June 2001

I think everyone has a right to be a critic. Although, the perpective of the critic makes a difference to me. When one is just dreaming, the price difference between a Mercedes S500 and a Q45 is not a practical issue. When one faces the reality of a purchase one might look at things somewhat differently. In this regard, it is my impression that the most self-righteous and critical of the commentators seem to be the dreamers.

ripinrocket · June 2001

dreaming of a S-class, huh?

fenn · June 2001

Nope. I think that I would rather buy the new Infiniti, then I would still have more than enough change left over to buy your Honda for my daughter!

fenn · June 2001

OK, have we have had our fun now? Let's just agree to disagree.

ripinrocket · June 2001

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying the S-class, 7-series, Ls430, A8 and some others are better cars. The reality that the Q45 doesn't sell, even in it's 1st yr, is a testament to that.

ripinrocket · June 2001

ANd not saying it's a bad car, because it's a very good car that now is actually competitive in many ways with the LS430, E-class, 5-series, Jaguar XJ8, but it still lacks in some areas where it count.

fenn · June 2001

OK, Ok, Whatever you say... Now, why don't you go post on the Honda board, where you have first hand experience?

pat · June 2001

Let's just stick to discussing the cars and not each other.

Thanks.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

arcoates · June 2001

merc1- I have my issue of the R&T and the new Q comparo. It beat out the LS430 by a good 10 points. They felt is offered as much luxury, better and more distincitve looks and better performance all at a cheaper price. All things I agree with.

I don't think the Q is selling that well because it has a horrible image coming from the previous year. It will build steam as more reviewers tip their hats and people see them around. Let's not forget they have only been out for about a month or two.~ A.R.

ripinrocket · June 2001

Donfenn,

Time for you to jump on over to the Q45 topic then, isn't it. As Q45 is not mentioned in the title of this topic!

carphart · June 2001

Despite a few subjective grumblngs, I think that the general verdict on the New Q45 has to be positive. They took a chance with the looks, and that may hurt them with some folks, but it is a distinctive car. It is now a car that Road and Track validates over the LS430, at a price well below that of the competition. That should speak for itself.

carphart · June 2001

I do not want to get into their debate, but I think that they need to add the Q45 to the title of this discussion

ripinrocket · June 2001

Yes, the verdict on the 2002 Q45 is very positive, and I would say it's competes very well with the LS430, 740i, S430, for thousands less.

It's styling & lack of trunk space are 2 big negative's. And of course the biggest problem with the new Q45 really isn't about the Q45 but about the Infiniti brand's missteps for the last decade. If Infiniti did a better job on the styling, they would have a real winner on their hands.

Motor Trend says the Q45 is a good car too, just not as good as the other cars in it's class like the A8, S430, & LS430.

carphart · June 2001

Ripnrocket, let it suffice to say that your your two big negative points about the New Q45 are not problems to me. In fact, I like the looks, and I did not find the trunk size to be a problem (I do find the trunk on my wife's '98 Q45 to be a sore point, so I have given that aspect of the new car the utmost scrutiny). For my taste, if the perfomance and handling is good, the looks are distinctive, the interior is sumptuous, and the sound system rocks, I would say it is a winner. I am contemplating getting one when the lease is up on my 740i next month. I think that I might enjoy driving a "dark horse". I am not so concerned about the past Infiniti mis-steps, as Nissan seems to be bouncing back from mediocrity quite nicely. On the positive side, the service and pampering that my wife gets on her current Infiniti is better than the treatment I get at the BMW dealer. I might also add that Motor Trend is my least favorite among automotive magazines. I relate better to Road and Track and Automobile.

logic1 · June 2001

Still waiting on my R&T. Perhaps the postal service is reading first. Did R&T have the same issues with the Qs horsepower claims as Motortrend?

arcoates · June 2001

Well, they quote 340 bhp and 333 lb. ft. of torque. I haven't seen the motor trend comparo, so I don't know if the numbers are the same.

I agree that the styling is no problem. They went distinctive, but not overly. Everything but the front end is none offensive. It flows together nicely. At least it's not a rip off of someone else's design.

As for trunk space, does it matter all that much? 14 cubic feet sounds pretty standard in the class- as long as you can get a couple of sets of golf clubs in, what's the difference?

What I'm more concerned with is how are it's driving dynamics. So far, it sounds pretty good. Better than an S-Class and LS430, so far so good. That's the spec that would get me into a new Q~ A.R.

pat · June 2001

We've talked about the Q45 often here, so I added it to the title. I also changed LS400 to the current model, LS430. And I dropped the "II" designation from the title since we no longer have a need to stop and start discussions after a certain number of posts.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

logic1 · June 2001

Arcoates:

MT did not hazzard a guess as to the Q's horse power, but suggested their test results were not consistent with Nissan's horsepower claims. MT then went on to qualify their findings by stating the test Q's were both pre-production.

I do not have my MT with me at the office, so I cannot give you the handling data verbatim. As I said above, the Seville STS actually took first place in the skid pad. I want to say the Q was some where in the middle. MT liked the Q's handling, but not as well as the S. Pricewise the Q stacked up pretty well, though all the Japanese and European entries were significantly much higher than the Seville. In fact, even if MT had used a Seville with the sport option, the Seville still would have been 5k less than the Q, and arguably would have done better than the test STS on the skid pad and braking tests.

arcoates · June 2001

Nevertheless, I still think the Q is a valid competitor to this market. It has to goods, let's hope that the public agrees~A.R.

arcoates · June 2001

As for the STS, I am not surprised. As I've said before, I think the FWD STS would be more fun to drive than the RWD LS430 just because it has been billed as a driving machine and the LS430 a luxury car. This latest test just confirms my belief. At the time I suggested this notion, I was severely critisized. My theories aren't as out there as many believe. Nonetheless, I am proud of the STS for stacking up as well. I read today that the DTS came second in a recent quality survey behind the LS430. It seems that Cadillac's are holding up better these days. I hope they can improve even more, because once they switch th RWD they could become a serious conetender in this market. The Q45 is, the STS very well could be.~ A.R.

bitkahuna · June 2001

"I think the FWD STS would be more fun to drive than the RWD LS430 just because it has been billed as a driving machine and the LS430 a luxury car."

So if it's 'billed' as a driving machine or performance car, it is?? Perhaps you're getting swayed a little too much by marketing.

The LS is not marketed as a performance car, but that doesn't mean it's a slouch when you drive it. Yes, it's 'disconnected' and isolated, by design, but its handling and power are more than capable.

The Q is marketed as a performance sedan, but that doesn't mean it is. They're doing it to differentiate it from Lexus, as they did with the original Q (but stopped with the second generation because its performance and handling were actually lame).

The STS has been marketed as a performance sedan also, and of course its FWD limits it, but it's actually surprisingly capable. I've driven one pretty hard on a track at one of those comparison car events.

The magazines also fall for the marketing image-making too, unfortunately. The only way to know for sure is drive the cars, and make up your own mind. Why don't you?

One car not mentioned much in this board is the A8 - when I drove one at that same comparison event on the track I was sorely disappointed, because I *love* the look of the A8 and its GORGEOUS interior, but the handling, throttle response, steering and braking were poor. I'm sure I'd like an S8, but I'm not about to spend that much on a car.

arcoates · June 2001

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that the STS is Cadillac's driver's car. That is the way it is marketed yes, but also the way it is designed. Lexus is going more for a vault-like luxury car. So, why shouldn't the STS come out on top (between those two cars)? I got ridiculed when I suggested that before. Anyway, I think GM has done a great job with the Seville considering it is FWD playing in a league of mostly RWDers.~ A.R.

badtoy · June 2001

And as capable as the STS is, it is not as capable as the LS. I much prefer the styling of the STS to the LS too, but once again -- that has nothing to do with suspension and handling. In addition, the STS is significantly slower. So as a performance machine, it has its work cut out for it. My hope is that GM will improve performance AND handling -- maybe even make it RWD.

fenn · June 2001

The STS is sort of a raw car compared to the other more refined cars, but it is fast and feels quite aggressive. I had a recent test drive in one, and it was a bit thrilling, although the handling feel and torque steer felt just a bit alien to me. The current STS is a pretty car, but it looks dated. I have heard that the next generation will be rear wheel drive. It is hard to believe that GM, with all of its varied resources, will not be able to come up with a total package to eventually compete head to head with the other players in this class. I also cannot believe that Lincoln had not been able to come up with an American built sedan that can compete in this class...Maybe they will just leave this segment to their Jaguar division.

badtoy · June 2001

I'm old enough to remember the competition between Lincoln and Cadillac, and long for it again. Flashy Caddy, slinkin Lincoln....

merc1 · June 2001

From your post earlier on....I don't have to own a Q to know that it's ugly to me and that the previous model was a dud. Just being a "nice" car doesn't cut it in the league.

arcoates,

I can't wait to get my issue of Road and Track. I would have bet that they would have picked the Q over the LS, they are performance first, luxury second.

MT keeps things interesting by testing cars of different prices and essentially differently classes, unlike C&D which would never test such a wide cross section of cars. Who knows how much actually cross shopping is going on between the bunch MT just tested. I doubt if anyone is caught up between a XJ SC and the Q45, but there will definitely be some between the LS and Q.

M

ripinrocket · June 2001

carphart,

Well, quite simply I didn't say you have to think it's ugly, and I also did not say just because I find it ugly that the rest of the population has to find it ugly. Just giving my opinion, just as you are. Same with trunk space.

logic1 · June 2001

MT may not do the tech part as well as the others, but they take chances and make people think differently. I really liked the MT comparo. But I still wonder where the heck my RT is. Perhaps my post man is following this forum as well.

stebu · June 2001

Well, thank goodness the Q45 was finally and officially added to this topic. I think it plays well in this group and provides yet another slant of the performance/luxury equation. In my opinion, it's a great looking car. I especially applaud Infiniti for daring to stick with a headlight design that seemingly puts function ahead of form and, IMHO, they did it without upsetting the overall balance of the car.

I think it's too early to make any judgements based on sales. As word of the Q gets out, I hope/expect that the numbers will begin to support the effort Infiniti put into developing the car. Hell, we need more cars like this if for no other reason then to provide real world laboratories for some of the bleeding edge technology that one day may find it's way into the more mainstream and affordable vehicles.

In some ways, I think the title change to this topic is just another small reflection of the positive recognition that the new Q is beginning to generate among the motoring press and the high end buying public.

fenn · June 2001

Just look at some of the duds that have won Motor Trend Car of the Year Awards in the past. I read it too, but it is not the apex of excellence in auto magazines. As for opinions about the New Q45 or any car, we are all entitled to our own. I am not sure why certain contributors to this forum cannot leave this alone without repetitious negativity.

ripinrocket · June 2001

And I guess R&T is the the apex of excellence in auto magazines because the Q got rated tops?

And I bet, the Q45 will be a strong contender for the 2002 Motor Trend Car of The Year award, and I feel it will probably win that award. Of course, if that does happen(the Q wins), then you'll sing MT's praises.

fenn · June 2001

Relax. I am stating my opinion and just trying to be objective. If you think Motor Trend is the bible that's good for you. Meanwhile, you are picking apart the Q's trunk capacity and restating your subjective feelings about appearance. Did you look at trunk volumetrics when you bought your Honda?

mvargo1 · June 2001

MT found the Q's interior to be almost as nice as the A8's which they praised the highest, they also found the Q to have the best stereo, and I don't really understand the complaint about the radio and AC controls since that stuff is all done by voice anyway.

aculex · June 2001

I want to thank all of you who have bought new, high-end cars like the A8s, Bimmers, Benzes, Lexi etc. (not much of a fan of Infiniti) .. A few years from now I look forward to buying one of your cars pre-owned. Take good care of them please!

:-)

pathdoc · June 2001

I was puzzled by the review in R&T where they gave 10 points for trunk size to both cars even though by their own numbers the Q had 13+ and the lexus 20. While I like performance (I drive a Jag. XKR) I also require sufficient trunk space in my sedan and the small size of the Q excludes it for consideration just as the current Jag XJ"s trunk is too small. Size does matter.

aculex · June 2001

I want to thank all of you who have bought new, high-end cars like the A8s, Bimmers, Benzes, Lexi etc. (not much of a fan of Infiniti) .. A few years from now I look forward to buying one of your cars pre-owned. Take good care of them please!

:-)

ripinrocket · June 2001

Donfenn,

I know you're stating your opinion, just as I am. I don't have any problems with your opinions or your car. But don't think owning a Q45 means you know everything about every other car in the class. Did you drive all of these cars before you bought your Q45?

And yes, trunk space was somewhat important. Just saying the Q45's trunk volume is lacking compared to the competition it faces.

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