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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Never undersetimate a country that has to engineer itself against earthquakes.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Personally I prefer a tight chassis that makes me quake than a cozy soft quake-free chassis!

    Maybe my preferences would change if I lived in California! ;)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Check out the message boards, I'm certainly not alone in bulb issues. I have had half a dozen European cars; it becomes statisticly significant after a certain point.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    That is quite vague!

    Can you link these forums to the pages where these complaints are. Or at least point out which forums have these complaints

    Thanks
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Let's be realistic about this - electronics are Japan's baby, engineering is Germany's

    A lot depends on what "engineering" means. To me, "engineering" means putting things together according to design and build fault-tolerance. In that regard, Japanese are way ahead of the Germans. Germans may be ahead in some aspects of design, or more precisely spec'ing. In recent years, the fans of "German engineering" have become more and more reliant on the bragging rights associated with a few bauble project cars, such as S55AMG, M5 etc.. An S55AMG that has to spend weeks in shop summarizes the current state of affair: the car is great on paper, may indeed be an engineering tour de force if one is only concerned with spec paper. However, that's not what engineering is about. Engineering is not about how good things are when they are working, but how consistently the result can be delivered. The reality is that countless resources are wasted on the S55AMG(R&D, marketting, and maintenance bills) that could have been more benefitially used on making better S430's or S500's. The difference between the Japanese and the Germans is approaching that of a car manufacturer vs. a tuner.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Interesting view about German engineering!

    But German engineering is not defned by a tuned S55AMG!

    There is a bit more to it than that!

    In fact BMW, MB and Audi are as much in manufacturering as Japanese luxury marques!
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    The most reliable Toyotas are not the expensive Lexus LS but the cheap Corolla. Why? Because the Corolla is not as complex as a Lexus LS.

    Dewey:

    Stay on the topic you know most about - BMW - and not about electronics. The Corolla is more reliable than the LS ? You gotta be kidding, right ? Like Len said, the LS is an electronic marvel... it's got it all, yet ranks as one of (if not the) most reliable sedan, bar none... That the Germans can't seem to put a CD changer in-dash (instead of the trunk), that they cannot seem to get a Nav that does not require you to have its CD in the Nav drive to run. Puleazeeee....

    Japan makes electronic gadgetry and wizadry look like child's play. Making all these work seemlessly is a piece of cake to them as well. Call me when BMW or MB can simply create an in-dash CD changer that a $15K Kia already does, then we'll talk electronics.... I mean simple electronics...
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Go to bimmer.org or saabnet.com or message boards on edmunds, and do a search for "bulb". It seems quite common that European cars need head light replacement within the first 1 or two years. None of my European cars carried a single one of their factory original head lights beyond the two-year mark. Most encountered the first replacement within the first year of ownership, and the second one followed shortly afterwards.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    In fact BMW, MB and Audi are as much in manufacturering as Japanese luxury marques!

    They just manufacture under-engineered cars because their engineering budget is wasted on tuner projects like S55AMG, M5, S6, etc.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The Corolla is more reliable than the LS ? You gotta be kidding, right ? Like

    Nope, look at CR!

    Call me when BMW or MB can simply create an in-dash CD changer that a $15K Kia already does, then we'll talk electronics.... I mean simple electronics...

    idrive equipped BMW5 and BMW7 sales have increased this past year ! A bit of an indicator that BMW idrive is no big turn-off. In fact the idrive has been dumbed down a bit! Maybe not down to the Kia levels you seem comfortable with!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    MB C230 Kompressor, 2000 - can't keep bulbs in the taillights.

    2001 Volvo S-80 T-6 - can't keep bulbs in the taillights, or headlights.

    I don't know why - I'm just answering your challenge.

    Don't have that problem on any of my American cars.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    They just manufacturer under-engineered cars because their engineering budget is wasted on tuner projects like S55AMG, M5, S6, etc

    Yeah German cars are known to be under-engineered! This discussion is becoming as nonsensical as the sites you pointed out that have bulb problems!

    I checked and I saw none! And thanks for the Saab site? Do you know the difference between a German Bratwurst and a Swedish meatball?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The year 2000, is that the best you could find? Sounds like a bulb crisis to me!

    A VOLVO? A SAAB? What other German company, a Fiat?

    Good night
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Yeah German cars are known to be under-engineered!

    Statisticly subpar reliability is the very definition for under-engineering. That's the case in any industry; not sure why you are exempting the German auto industry.

    This discussion is becoming as nonsensical as the sites you pointed out that have bulb problems!

    Apparently you can't quite defend your position on the light bulbs, as evidence show contrary to your assertion.

    I check and I saw none!

    Go to their message board section, and search for "bulb"
    for example:
    http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e46/search.php?st=bulb&dosearch=Search%21&ps=20&m=nat- ural&o=default

    And thanks forthe Saab site? Do you know the difference between a German Bratwurst and a Swedish meatball?

    The Saab 9-5 that I have right now is actually more reliable than most German cars. It certainly is more reliable than the BMW's and MB's that I had before.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    A VOLVO? A SAAB? What other German company, a Fiat?

    How about Opel/Vauxhall? It sells more cars than BMW, MB and Audi, and on some years VW as well, IIRC. SAAB 9-5 and 9-3 share a lot of parts, including the entire platform, with Opel.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Hey, don't attack! I'm just saying, I'm not making any disparaging remarks about German or Euro cars and I don't think brightness was either. It is what it is, and it's not a reason not to own them.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e46/search.php?st=bulb&dosearch=Search%21&ps=20&m=nat- - - ural&o=default

    Have you actually read most these posts? Most of them are routine bulb changes. What statistical proof are you talking about? Nothing so notorious about them, dont you think?

    Nuff said!
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Have you actually read most these posts? Most of them are routine bulb changes. Nothing so notorious about them, dont you think?

    Did you check the post dates vs. model years? Like I said, before I had my first Japanese car, I thought bulb changes every year (or more frequent) was routine maintenance myself . . . until I was spoiled by the reliability of Japanese makes.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I said: Call me when BMW or MB can simply create an in-dash CD changer that a $15K Kia already does...

    You responded: idrive equipped BMW5 and BMW7 sales have increased this past year !

    Huh ???? i-Drive and in-dash CD changer are related now ? See, the trouble with you and your argument is that they are untenable. Why not just admit your point is pointless...

    For me, I'll just state the following: that some German cars have reliability issues (MB, VW, especially). BMW is doing well in this area, more than MB at least. MB's biggest problems are electronic failures. The mechanicals (gearing, tranny, etc), body structure, quality of build, NVH, etc are all pretty good. If only they can get the electronics worked out, they'll be fine. VW had a stellar year to date, except in the US market. Audi is doing well, but the A8 still lags its peers in sales here in the US. That grille could do with less "teeth", imo. Jag is suffering under the FORD yoke, alas ! Lexus... well they are simply minting money every which way. With the new GS and IS, and soon to come the next LS, they'll gain more market share in the luxury market.

    So your old-ish BMW and your wife's even more old MB are doing well. Great for you. Some newer models from Bavaria or Stuttgart are not faring that well. And I was just visiting the home of MB just last week... Fabulous place, really. Everyone swears by MB except in Bavaria. With Lexus nipping at the heels of their German rivals, it'll only be good for consumers. I know I'll benefit from an improved LS next Fall. Trust me, in the HELM market I am not even considering the German's for my money :) But when it comes to the small entry-level lux, I can certainly see myself in a 3-er... sans iDrive, sans active steering, but SP-attired, if I can get it at or close to invoice...
  • manifoldmanifold Member Posts: 57
    My VW Jetta's head or tailight bulb had to be replaced at least once every 6 months. One time I got stopped by a cop for speeding and he said "I'm not going to give you a ticket for a busted taillight since I know VWs have electrical problems".

    Sheesh.
  • manifoldmanifold Member Posts: 57
    As you got rid of SAP, SAP is eating the lunch/lunches of every single one of its competitors including Oracle.

    That maybe true in Europe but not here in the US. SAP is very expensive to use because they use highly proprietary stuff like their abap 4 language. Oracle OTOH is a bit more open. Java programmers are dime a dozen while companies have to send their coders to SAP training to learn abap at $2000 a class. A company isnt going to make that kind of investment because they know the programmer will just leave to consult at $200/hr. Only reason why SAP still has a prescense here is because fortune 500s were locked into them during the early days when they were the only available alternative. But they are bieng phased out in favor of custom or cheaper or more open systems. Also, Ive heard of companies who've gone bankrupt because they went with SAP but can't say the same with Oracle or Peoplesoft.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Can you link these forums to the pages where these complaints are.

    I posted this link very recently, check the 6th sentence or so re tailights:

    ejerod, "Mercedes-Benz S-Class" #1611, 29 Apr 2004 9:13 am

    Also see the 3rd paragraph here:

    mercedesstinks, "Luxury Performance Sedans" #2083, 8 May 2005 5:56 pm

    and a number of entries here:

    drtravel, "Luxury Performance Sedans" #2084, 8 May 2005 7:02 pm

    A little off topic but I found the second paragraph here to be hilarious:

    i_drive, "High End Luxury Marques" #3855, 5 Jan 2004 1:23 am
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Isnt the EOS aimed at the CLK?

    No it will be priced from 25K with the FSI 4 and 35K with the VR6, far below any CLK models.

    You're right the Passat is priced out of the family class, at least the one that C&D tested, and I doubt many buyers in the entry-level luxury class will take a serious look at the Passat.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Stay on the topic you know most about - BMW - and not about electronics. The Corolla is more reliable than the LS ? You gotta be kidding, right ? Like Len said, the LS is an electronic marvel... it's got it all, yet ranks as one of (if not the) most reliable sedan, bar none... That the Germans can't seem to put a CD changer in-dash (instead of the trunk), that they cannot seem to get a Nav that does not require you to have its CD in the Nav drive to run. Puleazeeee....

    Japan makes electronic gadgetry and wizadry look like child's play. Making all these work seemlessly is a piece of cake to them as well. Call me when BMW or MB can simply create an in-dash CD changer that a $15K Kia already does, then we'll talk electronics.... I mean simple electronics...

    When is all this hype going to catch up with reality? If the Germans aren't putting a 6-disc CD changer in the dash at this point it is because they aren't trying to. To suggest that the simply can't is beyond ridiculous. FYI, certain Mercedes models have in-dash 6-disc CD changers and have had them for years!

    Secondly the only German luxury car that I know of with a CD-ROM based Nav system is the big VW, and that may have changed for 2005-2006. I have no argument about Germans being inferior to the Japanese on electronics and the integration of them, but at the very least you could get the fact straight before posting such bogus claims.

    German cars have never been defined by CD changers and Nav systems, something that Japanese luxury cars wear on their sleeves like some kind of advancement of the automobile. That is where the pluheaazee comes in at.

    M
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What about from a size standpoint, if not price? Wont it be bigger than cars like the A4 Cabrio or 330 convertible? It also seems like its attempting to look like a CLK, at least from the rear 3\4 view.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I don't think it is, but that is very hard to tell by pics. It uses the Passat/Golf chassis so it could be smaller than the A4 or larger, not sure. Still though I don't think it is aimed at the CLK just by projected price alone. Someone pointed out earlier that the Volvo C70 is most likely the main competitor to the Eos, that may be the case. Neither one of them should be as expensive as a CLK or the next generation 3-Series cabrio.

    I hope for VW's sake they've given up on this luxury car fantasy because competiting with Mercedes (which they can't do) is mucking up the picture for Audi, and Audi is supposed to be be the volume luxury car brand in the VW Empire.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    It seems quite common that European cars need head light replacement within the first 1 or two years. None of my European cars carried a single one of their factory original head lights beyond the two-year mark. Most encountered the first replacement within the first year of ownership, and the second one followed shortly afterwards.

    What do you think causes this? The European car I see all the time with a front bulb out is the 1998-2005 Passat. I mean without fail and its usually on the newer 2001 facelifted model. Is this improper sealing of the headlamp assembly or just cheap bulbs or something else?

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    said: Call me when BMW or MB can simply create an in-dash CD changer that a $15K Kia already does...

    You responded: idrive equipped BMW5 and BMW7 sales have increased this past year !

    Huh ???? i-Drive and in-dash CD changer are related now ?

    OAC,

    You wrote the following:

    then we'll talk electronics.... I mean simple electronics...

    We were talking about electronics and German cars in general not CD changers. The whole theme of last night was electronics and German cars not CD changers!

    See, the trouble with you and your argument is that they are untenable. Why not just admit your point is pointless...

    Show me the flaws in my arguments that make them pointless before you claim that they are pointless! It seems you are quite confused about last night's discussion! What is the source of your confusion?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    When is all this hype going to catch up with reality? If the Germans aren't putting a 6-disc CD changer in the dash at this point it is because they aren't trying to. To suggest that the simply can't is beyond ridiculous. FYI, certain Mercedes models have in-dash 6-disc CD changers and have had them for years!

    As usual, you castigate every dissenting viewpoint to yours... Hype, wannabe, envy, etc.. Here is a simple factoid for you: can you tell us which MB has had an in-dash CD changer for years and are sold here in the US ???

    Secondly the only German luxury car that I know of with a CD-ROM based Nav system is the big VW, and that may have changed for 2005-2006.

    Does your fav MB with Nav require a disc (CD, DVD) in the drive to run ? or does it not ?

    German cars have never been defined by CD changers and Nav systems, something that Japanese luxury cars wear on their sleeves like some kind of advancement of the automobile.

    Of course. German cars were never defined by cup holders either, but they do now, eh ? Maybe the point escapes you: that the Germans think CD changers deserve to be in the trunk, while a $15K KIA can put one in-dash. I chose Kia, a Korean car as an example here. I could have chosen a Ford ZX3, which is even cheaper at $11K.... And please note that luxury car makers don't brag about having an in-dash CD changer, but it sure sucks if your $60K+ car cannot even provide a basic feature you'd find in far less cars ??? That's the point....
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    As usual, you castigate every dissenting viewpoint to yours... Hype, wannabe, envy, etc

    Not only do you appear confused but you also seem somewhat hostile?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    DEWEY:

    WHAT electronics do you think the german cars ...S class, 7 series...has that my 01 LS430 ultra doesn't have?

    Curious
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Thanks syswei for the links!

    They do show there are issues with certain MB bulbs!

    In addition VW has some issues with certain models.

    BUT this is a far cry from what was repeated in this forum yesterday that buying a German car involves replacing bulbs every few months!

    That would be like pointing out certain past transmission issues with the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord and then claiming that all Japanese cars have transmission issues!
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Dewey:

    I looked at Consumer Reports as you suggested (April 05 car issue)...Corolla and the LS both get great marks for everything BUT...Corolla is not as good as the LS...

    02 Corolla...1/2 red for brakes, body integrity, paint, power equip, body hardware...NO BLACK, 1/2 BLACK or even avg.....Bright all red for Electrical

    02 LS....1/2 red for brakes and power equipment...NEVER A BLACK, 1/2 BLACK or even AVG...Also ALL RED for electrical.

    Just for fun I looked at BMW 7 series...

    02 BMW 7 series.

    All Black for electrical and power equipment...1/2 black for ignition...AVG. for body hardware, and fuel...1/2 red for engine, air conditioning, brakes, paint, body integrity...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I wonder what is causing this bulb problem. My neighbor has a Range Rover and I asked him if he's had any problems and he said he has replaced both of his headlights in a year. Faulty design or faulty bulbs?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    It would be more worthwhile to focus on the electronics that are in the new MB S compareed to the new Lexus LS! Yesteday's electronics from 01 is so historic and it makes no sense to compare the updated electronics of a 7 series to an 01 LS.

    Since I will not be buying either an S or a LS I do not have the info filed away. (all my files I have are related to the BMW3/5 series)

    So I will get back to you when I do my research!

    Thanks!
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Dewey:

    I am looking at Consumer Reports back to 97...Not a single score other then ALL RED for Transmissions On any Toyota in any of those years...Where are you getting your information?

    The honda had a transmission problem in the Odyssey in 99 that is the only Honda that ever had a Transmission problem going back to 97 and it was only for that one year...Except the 01 accord that scored avg. for that one year.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Faulty design or faulty bulbs?

    Unfortunately both are a source of frustration for an owner and can diminish the reputation of any vehicle(luxury or non-luxrury)
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Acura has somewhat of a nasty history with transmission problems though, particularly the 5-speed automatic in '01-'03 CLs and TLs, which had to be recalled. The TL does badly in terms of transmission though going back to its '99 redesign.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Here are posts, enjoy!

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05091/480928.stm

    http://www.autosite.com/content/research/forums/index.cfm/action/Posts/fid/2852

    http://www.autosite.com/content/research/forums/index.cfm/action/Posts/fid/2852

    http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/toyota_camry_lev6_2005/15579/style_user_reviews.html

    http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2105/act/usedcarreviewre- liability/

    Camry based Lexus ES330:

    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05091/480928.stm
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    My apologies for my last post. I accidentally duplicated some links related to Camry transmission issues!

    There were definitely issues about the Lexus ES330, but unfortunately they are detailed at a site that is currently unaccessible:

    Here is the opening paragraph from post-gazette.com dated
    Dec 8, 2004

    Wednesday, December 08, 2004

    By Don Hammonds, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

    A transmission problem in 2002 to 2004 Lexus ES300 and ES330 sedans can cause hesitation before the car accelerates in certain situations -- and create some unsettling moments for the cars' owners.

    McMurray resident Timothy W. Farabaugh was among those who experienced the problem with his 2004 Lexus ES330, and Consumer Reports has uncovered similar difficulties with the pricey model, which ranges from the mid-$30,000s to mid-$40,000s..
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Please use the URL button under the post box to create them. With the addition of the right sidebar, it's important not to push the text area out to the right, which links do on many members' displays.

    Thanks, we appreciate it! :)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Oops,

    sorry!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I looked at Consumer Reports as you suggested (April 05 car issue)...Corolla and the LS both get great marks for everything BUT...Corolla is not as good as the LS...

    I am looking at the stats and I see that the Corolla is superior in reliability compared to the LS!

    Corolla 03/04/01/99 is superior to the LS!
    It appears the oler LS are more reliable!

    So at least the newer Corollas are more reliable.
  • lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Designman, here is the link to the Autoweek article on the LF-Sh:

    http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=103477

    In my opinion, the article is right to say the LF-Sh is 85% of what the new LS will be. Lexus has a history of showing production cars in advance as "concept" cars. They did it with the 1st-gen RX, they did it with the 2nd-gen GS, they did it with the 2nd-gen SC, etc. All were labeled as concept cars yet all turned out to be the real deal except for some minor trim like the grille. Lexus does indeed sometimes bring concepts to fruition.

    It is easy to distinguish a concept car like the LF-A from a production-ready concept car like the LF-Sh. The production-ready concepts look like real cars and have things like rearview mirrors, door handles, etc.

    Also, the LF-Sh is not simply a shell as you say it may be. The article clearly states the LF-Sh is fitted with a V8 hybrid system and all-wheel drive. I'm sure the car has a full interior, Lexus is just not yet showing it. Besides, the LF-Sh just looks like a production-ready car.

    I am certainly convinced the LF-Sh is the next LS.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Oh, I understand - it's just recently become important because of the right sidebar thingy.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hi - did you miss my post at this link: pat, "High End Luxury Marques" #11120, 7 Nov 2005 1:40 pm?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    I am looking at the stats and I see that the Corolla is superior in reliability compared to the LS!

    Corolla 03/04/01/99 is superior to the LS!
    It appears the oler LS are more reliable!

    So at least the newer Corollas are more reliable.

    I'll say it again: stick to your favorite subject - BMW. This is the kind of thing that I refer to when I say that your argument can be untenable. Every owner of Toyota and Lexus knows which car is more reliable. I won BOTH products and I can tell you which is more reliable - the obvious one, the LS. For the life of me, I can not even remotely imagine why anyone would compare a Corolla to a Lexus, and an LS for that matter. These two cars are as different as night and day.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    German cars have never been defined by CD changers and Nav systems, something that Japanese luxury cars wear on their sleeves like some kind of advancement of the automobile. That is where the pluheaazee comes in at.

    Luxury cars are about amenities, and inpeccable ownership experience. If the Germans are inferior on amenities and ownership experience (reliability), then on what ground do they sell their luxury cars? Snob appeal alone? Horsepower is never a trademark of luxury automobiles, nor handling.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I can not even remotely imagine why anyone would compare a Corolla to a Lexus, and an LS for that matter. These two cars are as different as night and day.

    In terms of reliability they are not much different!
    In terms of luxury and other aspects the Lexus is different

    This is the kind of thing that I refer to when I say that your argument can be untenable.

    As I requested in my prior post what is so untenable about my arguments? I used CR as a source to back up my argument, is that so untenable?? Can you back up what you are saying when you say my arguments are untenable?

    I'll say it again: stick to your favorite subject - BMW.

    IS THAT AN ORDER? ARE YOU DICTATING THE RULES OF THIS FORUM?
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    I wonder if this thread can go 3 posts without mentioning reliability.... Geez, it's like a broken record!
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