High End Luxury Cars

oac · November 2005

Thanks... No Infiniti, not for wifey anyway.

Back to Lexus for me... The LX is really without peers. I don't know why I even thought of another truck in its class... Silly me... Comforting that Lexus is just heads and shoulders above the competition in reliable transportation.

nvbanker · November 2005

Oooh, check them out carefully - I have several clients with them, and they love them - when they're not in the shop, which is not often.....

nvbanker · November 2005

I see nobody would answer your question directly. I've been driving a large SUV for 10 years now. IMO, the Navigator is way superior to the Escalade in features. It has a power folding 3rd seat, a 3rd seat by the way, that you can actully seat an adult in pretty comfortable, and it folds flat into the floor, so you don't have to take the seat out at the antique store, and leave it there, to haul your desk home, then come back for the seat. It has independent rear suspension which makes it ride with far more stability. It has cooled front seats, not just heated. Of course, the Escalade has heated REAR seats, which the Navigator doesn't have. The Navigator also has a power rear door, activated from your keyless fob. The Escalade still has the Silverado interior in it, while the Navigator has a gorgeous unique interior that makes it worthy to be a Lincoln. The Escalade does have a larger engine, so if towing a house if your thing, the Escalade may be superior. Otherwise, I don't know why anybody buys one.

Now, the LX470 is a very good truck - but much smaller, and the 3rd seat is a joke. The GX470 - even smaller, same problem. But a great truck.

Mercedes G-Class is in a class by itself, lots more money, and ugly as sin, IMO. But lots of wow factor.

I've tried them all, the Navigator still wins for me.

blckislandguy · November 2005

OAC, "Rip Off 525i"??

I think your posts are usually insightful so I am surprised by your catergorization of the 525i as a rip off. Wouldn't say a 525i with sports suspension, variable steering and a stick shift be a great cost-effective way to get the Bimmer experience w/o paying thru the nose? Throw on a set of Zenons and it would be a middle-aged guys dream.

Whaddya thunk?

lexusguy · November 2005

Aside from the FX, there's the X5 4.8. I wouldnt recommend an old ML55, wait for the new one.

ljflx · November 2005

The new Range Rover is also a fantastic SUV. My neighbor has one and he had a problem free one before this one that he had on a 30 month lease. Don't know about it's reliability overall but that, the LX and the GX are three great SUV's. My GX lease runs out in 14 months and I'm not sure what I will do next. If the new LX is out I'll take a long look at it. The RR doesn't work for me because I need three rows. I'm hoping Lexus surprises us with the HPX or really updates the GX.

airborne10 · November 2005

I'M MISSING MY VEHICLE HANDBOOK, MY CIGARETTE LIGHTER HAS STOPPED WORKING. I ASSUME THAT IT A FUSE PROBLEM, HOWEVER I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE FUSE BOX IS ON THIS CAR.
1998 XJ8L

PLEASE CAN SOMEONE HELP.

brightness04 · November 2005

but a CD changer not being in the right place?

I was actually thinking of the clunky NAV system, but CD changer not being in the right place doesn't help either.

Secondly I disagree, power is most definitely what a luxury car is about. It may not be a "trademark" but it is part of the reason people buy luxury cars.

Nobody thinks Mustangs and Camaroes were luxury cars despite their horsepower advantage over BMW's of comparable price (ha! perhaps within a doubling).

merc1 · November 2005

I was actually thinking of the clunky NAV system, but CD changer not being in the right place doesn't help either.

Stil doesn't disqualify them as being luxury cars like some here try to imply. Two trivial (very trivial in the case of a CD changer imo) things.

Nobody thinks Mustangs and Camaroes were luxury cars despite their horsepower advantage over BMW's of comparable price (ha! perhaps within a doubling).

True, and nobody thinks much of an underpowered "luxury" car nowadays either. Power is just as much a part of luxury as Nav systems and CD changers, moreso than a cd changer imo. I honestly don't understand that constant complaining about such a small thing like where a CD changer is located. The reliability part I can certainly see why one would stay away, but this constant harping about a Nav system and CD changer is just a lot of ruckus about nothing, IMO.

According to some here German luxury cars don't cut it because of inferior nav system or what they think is an ill-placed CD changer, and by that some token a luxury car (especially of this class) should have some giddyup. People like having power in these cars even if they hardly ever use it, they like knowing it is there just in case.

It is the intergration of these things and how they do so that makes a luxury car (Along with some other criteria) imo, because all these things can be had on much, much cheaper cars.

Sidenote: I personally like a 10-12 disc-changer in the trunk and single slot CD player in the dash, but that is just me. Either way you're going to be fumbling with CDs, only more so with 6 of them staring you in the face all the time. Lexus once upon a time had a nice 12-disc changer setup, but then again they didn't have in-dash CD player at that time.

M

oac · November 2005

"... I am surprised by your catergorization of the 525i as a rip off. Wouldn't say a 525i with sports suspension, variable steering and a stick shift be a great cost-effective way to get the Bimmer experience w/o paying thru the nose? Throw on a set of Zenons and it would be a middle-aged guys dream..."

Sorry for that characterization, just what I feel, since I still cannot figure out the purpose of the 525i, even with a SP (I do love SP-attired BMW tho', so much fun to drive, really). That anemic engine is best suited for the 3-series, imo. Why recycle this motor in a mid-size, bigger, porkier 5-series, and a mid-$40K tag ? I'd like to see the 255HP 530i as the base, with the 545 (or soon to be 550i) as the top end. Add in the racy M5 and you round out the mid-size entries, IMHO.

oac · November 2005

The new Range Rover is also a fantastic SUV...

Very nice truck. Nice history, great heritage... Resale is the worst in its sector. Atrocious. Reliability is spotty as well. My very good friend, an MD, has one. Traded out of an RX to an LC, and then to a RR. Has regretted the latter decision ever since. Now she rides in a Honda Oddy...

My mind is really made up... Back to the LX. I don't see the HPX coming out anytime soon, and the GX is too small for us.

lexusguy · November 2005

The SC400 I tested back in '96 had the Nackamichi 12 disc setup. I liked that better than the glove box mounted unit in LS that I bought. My wife's RX still has the changer in the glove box, which is annoying because my wife is the type of person that fills the glovebox with junk she seems to think needs to be there, and I have to deal with all of that when trying to get the magazine out to put in a CD.

merc1 · November 2005

That simply means you shouldn't be driving the RX, only the Jag and LS.

M

lexusguy · November 2005

Updates to the GX arent coming any time soon. Assuming Toyota\Lexus follows their usual cycle, a freshened GX\4Runner most likely wont be out until '08 at the earliest, with a redesign for '10 or '11.

The future of the LX\TLC is uncertain. What I think is going to happen is that Toyota will build new full size SUVs (Sequoia\JX?) based on the new Tundra, which will probably eliminate the LX and TLC.

lexusguy · November 2005

I was talking about sitting in the passenger seat, with the little woman doing the driving. I only ever actually drive the RX when I absolutely have to. Its about as much fun as driving a cardboard box. A wet cardboard box.

merc1 · November 2005

Oh ok, gotcha.

M

merc1 · November 2005

Mercedes vs pedestrian

M

lexusguy · November 2005

Ha, well the airbag definitely saved his life. The handbag was clearly traveling at lethal velocity.

brightness04 · November 2005

Stil doesn't disqualify them as being luxury cars like some here try to imply.

I don't think anyone tried to disqualify the S, E, 5 and 7 models with sucky Nav as luxury cars; they are just sucky luxury cars ;-)

nobody thinks much of an underpowered "luxury" car nowadays either.

Among the entry-luxury and mid-level perhaps, but not necessarily the high end. One of the latest luxury car making the rounds is a E220 Limo! Not exactly a car with 0-60 credentials. Let's not forget even Princess Diana died in an S280, not an S65AMG. The ultra luxury market is about smooth ride, luxury amenities, and an impeccable experience, not racing red lights with young punks.

It is the intergration of these things and how they do so that makes a luxury car

I agree. System integration is where Europeans have been falling behind in the last decade.

sv7887 · November 2005

Merc,
That was a great video. Doesn't the new S500 have some sort of airbag to predict the pedestrian as well? Now doing that video with a new S Class would have been great. The old lady might have gotten something she hadn't bargained for.

I see we're back to the usual debates...Ugh..Can't we just understand that every marque caters to different character sets? I don't ever see a BMW buyer going near a Lexus...It's just not their type of car, though the IS might be to some extent.

MB excels on building cars that shout Style..Look at the new CLS..It definitely says, "I'm different!" BMW builds cars for those wanting an involved driving experience. Lexus goes for the buyer who wants a no-hassle experience and comfort.

I think the big deal about reliability is that Mercedes was known until recently for building bank-vault like cars..Actually, seeing the W126 for the first time is what made me interested in Luxury cars to begin with..I'd been driving Buick's before my friend brought his then brand new 1988 300 SE to my place. The car was and still is absolutely solid.

One last thing: Driving around in the Corolla, I find that the horn isn't as "Macho" as I'm used to. The Lexus cars I have a much louder and more imtimidating sound. I've never hit the horn on any MB though..Perhaps our next debate? Which Marque has the best horn?

SV

docnukem · November 2005

Which Marque has the best horn?

Peterbilt

Now if that little old lady had heard that, I hate to think what might have happened!

ctsang · November 2005

There must be something wrong with that MB. How could a handbag trigger an airbag? I tried this on all my four vehicles and it just doesn't happen.

docnukem · November 2005

Yeah, it's in all the electronics integration of that MB

merc1 · November 2005

Among the entry-luxury and mid-level perhaps, but not necessarily the high end. One of the latest luxury car making the rounds is a E220 Limo! Not exactly a car with 0-60 credentials. Let's not forget even Princess Diana died in an S280, not an S65AMG. The ultra luxury market is about smooth ride, luxury amenities, and an impeccable experience, not racing red lights with young punks.

Well there are exceptions to every rule, but still power is just as much a part of a luxury car as anything else mentioned on this board. In Europe anything goes in a luxury car body it seems. In this country, power is a part of the upper luxury car experience. Nobody said anything about racing, you're trying to equate power to the desire of luxury car buyers to race sports cars, didn't say that.

That said, even I wouldn't want an E220 or 730i, but Europeans uses these cars for long distance crusing at elevated speeds (once the car gets up to speed

). Much more for long distance efficiency than short sprints.

M

merc1 · November 2005

There must be something wrong with that MB. How could a handbag trigger an airbag? I tried this on all my four vehicles and it just doesn't happen.

I really hope you aren't serious.

M

lexusguy · November 2005

If you hook up these, any marquee could have the best horn.

http://automotive.kosmetichka.ru/act_viewitem/itemtitle_WOLO_3062T_Super_Horns/item_B00029- XGNC/cat_12990461.html

120db is roughly equivalent to a jet engine, or jackhammer.

syswei · November 2005

Well my list would be a little different since there is only me to worry about.

1. Styling - if a car is ugly and/or bland I couldn't care any less about it. No boring or ugly cars.

2. Performance - Quality - Reliability - Comfort are pretty much all equally important after #1 for me....These all get looked at equally after styling/design in my book.

But when you started to become an MB fan (early 90s?)...did you actually like the styling?

merc1 · November 2005

But when you started to become an MB fan (early 90s?)...did you actually like the styling?

Picture it, America 1986. Riding along I noticed a rather different looking car on the expressway next to us. It said "300E" on the back of it, with this little star in the center of the trunklid. It was a curious machine. The right side rear view mirror was a different size from the left side rear view mirror it had this single blade windshield wiper and styling completely different from my favorite brand of car at the time (which was American btw). That car turned out to be the brand-new-for-1986 300E, precusor to today's "E-Class". Now prior to this I had seen a rather "large car" with the same symbol and some numbers like "380SEL" on the back of it, but wasn't sure who made it or what it was but it wasn't until I saw the "300E" did I truly start becoming a fan of what was called a "Mercedes-Benz". That E-Class of 1986 went on until 1995 and during that time there was a Coupe (300CE), Wagon (300TE) and two V8 sedans were added (400E, 500E) the latter of which continues to be my favorite Benz of all time to this very day.

So yes I like the styling, it was different and very upright, but much "cleaner" than my favorite luxury brand at the time. No I won't say what that brand was.

Of course there are stories about the first time I rode in and drove a Benz later on, but the above is pretty much how I remember the whole thing getting started.

M

lexusguy · November 2005

I've always liked MBs. I actually considered buying a used 190SL in the mid '70s, until I tried a spunky little Healey 3000. The Benz was very nice, but I just wasnt ready for a big GT convertible at that point. Plus (IMO) the Healey was the more attractive car. Compared to the convertibles that came out in the nightmare world of '70s auto design, it was a super model. I still miss that car sometimes. The '60s were definitely the golden age of the convertible.

merc1 · November 2005

It would be nice to have some of those brands back again, but in this day an age I guess we're lucky that Maserati is back, and possibly Alfa-Romeo might come back by 2007. I would love to have an Alfa-Romeo, gorgeous cars imo.

M

sellaturcica · November 2005

I'm 28, so take it with a grain of salt, but I haven't played a CD in my car in a real long time. I will not own a car again that does not have at least an auxiliary input for an Ipod or MP3 player. So far superior to CD changers, it's not even funny.

lexusguy · November 2005

Before I jump on mp3s in the car (preferably flac files, but I suppose at least 256 VBR mp3 would be enough to get by) I want to see storage built into the car's sound system. Even a million dollar car stereo will be killed by the 12 cent DAC thats in pretty much all portable mp3 players. Almost as bad as those cassettes that connect to a portable headphone jack.

Until then, I'll stick with my dino era CDs, and their infinitely superior sound quality.

lexusguy · November 2005

I think the new Austin Healey "Mk IV" concept is stunning, but there are just so many things stacked against it. Austin does not have the rights to the Healey name, and without the backing of a major auto company, I dont see any real chance of success in the market place. I'd absolutely love to get behind the wheel of an Austin Healey again though, and this time it would have the benefit of having (supposedly) 300+ hp V8 engine. No longer the "poor man's Jag".

http://common.weblogsinc.com/common/images/3060000000046137.JPG?0.9619618256758341

My Mk II was just like this car, two tone black over white, with the bolt on windows and impossible double-clutch four-speed. At least I never had to worry about my wife driving it

pat · November 2005

Please use the URL button to post links. If you have questions, shoot me an email. Thanks!

oac · November 2005

Are you refering to this car ?

Hmmm !!! Merc1 if this car was your wake-up call to the MB stable, I am quite surprised. Compared to today's styling, this MB is kinda stale and bland as vanilla....

syswei · November 2005

merc1,

I'm surprised you would view the late 80's 300E as offering better styling than say Audis of that time.

ljflx · November 2005

The 300E was hardly an inspiring car IMO. Now the SL - totally different story - that always was the MB I wanted amd interested me in the brand from day one.

sellaturcica · November 2005

Oh come on now, this audiophile stuff about car stereo is funny... The line out of my Ipod sounds plenty good through my Onkyo reciever at home, and through my Sony car stereo. Can't tell the difference from CD for me.

merc1 · November 2005

Well guys I didn't say that the 300E was "inspiring" or that it was better than Audi's styling at the time. I said that it was the car that got me interested in the Mercedes-Benz brand. Compared to the brand of car I liked most then the 300E was very much different. I had already known about and liked Audi before really having anything to do with a Mercedes.

Secondly, bland, vanilla etc...to each his own I guess. To me the W124 E-Class was a timeless design that still looks good today. Especially the 1994-1995 facelifted models.

You have to remember that the SL that roamed the streets in the 80's was a design that came out in 1971! Now the SL after that, the R129 that ran from 1990-2002 was another favorite.

Yeah the W124 E was hardly of the swoopy design language that Mercedes has today, thing is though they were hardly considered bland and vanilla back in their day. Its really easy to judge an old design by today's standards and call it bland.

M

garyh1 · November 2005

Merc, I understand exactly what you are saying about your "epiphany" with the 300E. It definitely made a statement that was very different from the American cars of the day. It was perhaps staid in its design, but its looks fit with the "solid as a tank" reputation that MB had (and deserved) then. Yet if you read the reviews of this car (such as on mercedesshop.com, the source of the pic which oac posted) you will all see that it was a fun car to drive as well: "These cars possess a handling feel that is almost unrivaled in the Mercedes Benz lineup. The tossable, nimble, almost 4-door go-kart feel is truly a joy. The fact that this is coupled with a wonderfully smooth ride and precise steering make the driving experience that much more enjoyable."

As a young lawyer, I myself went with an Audi 5000S back then (1980?), but if I could have afforded a 300E I would have bought it in a minute. And I would probably still have it now, that's how good a car they were. In contrast, the Audi blew a rod before it was 5 years old.

In those days, with an MB you actually did get what you paid for....

ljflx · November 2005

Merc, I can see what you mean. The SL was the car that did it for me but that classic front end with the grill on every other MB was really the definition of the brand from a style perspective. Looking at 1960-s thru 80's Benz models - even today - is like looking at the movie Casablanca for the 50th time. You know what will happen but the acting is so great you still have to watch.

michael_mattox · November 2005

I would have to say the SL did it for me also...I lusted after that car for years (unable to afford it)...When I could afford it I found I didn't fit in it comfortably...and found a new love the Cady Allante and did buy one and had it for 10 years...

I liked that car so much..I remember when I first got it, I would pass a BMW Convertable or an SL and feel sorry for the poor guy driving it...Silly I know. My Allante still looked fresh in 03 when I sold it.

lexusguy · November 2005

"I liked that car so much..I remember when I first got it, I would pass a BMW Convertable or an SL and feel sorry for the poor guy driving it..."

Somehow, I bet they felt the exact same way about you.

syswei · November 2005

I'm wondering if Cadillac might be the marque merc1 lusted after before he latched on to MB. Any comment, merc1?

You guys will laugh when I admit that back in the late 70s I actually liked the exterior styling of the AMC Pacer.

lexusguy · November 2005

"Its really easy to judge an old design by today's standards and call it bland."

Well, there's bad old design, and old design that really was so gorgeous that its still amazing today. There's only one American car in the history of US auto that I've ever really thought was goregous, the original 1953 Corvette. A few of the T-birds were pretty good, but they never measured up to that first Vette.

My love of English cars was kindled by stunners like the XK120 and Aston DB4. Those cars look just as good today as they did then. By '71 auto design went seriously down hill, and by '85 it was basically dead and buried.

Somebody at Aston Martin actually thought this...thing looked good:
Aston Martin Bulldog

oac · November 2005

You guys will laugh when I admit that back in the late 70s I actually liked the exterior styling of the AMC Pacer.

To the contrary, syswei, my all-time favorite American car (I am not American, if you haven't already guessed) was the '70s Mercury Monarch. That car was elegant, stately, rich-looking, and had a commanding presence on the road. A car driven by US ambassadors globally, at least in the '70s. I lusted after that car, and promised myself if I ever had any money, that's the car for me. Of course, I was barely 12 yrs old by this time, so much for been a car fan that early.

In the '80s, it was MB bcos every rich person had one. But by the '90s, MB was off the radar for me. Why ? Bcos it represented old money, to me. It represented everything I wanted to forget. Regardless of how beautiful and graceful the cars are, MB as a brand belongs in the past. Nothing against them really... Lexus was the new kid on the block...I was impressed by their reliable and conservative outlook to their cars. And they bucked the old-timers. That was the deal breaker... That a starter could kick the behind of the old guard. I love that about them. And remain loyal to that brand, for now. The brand that intrigues me the most is BMW. Despite their long history, they remain *new* in my eyes. If only I could sub-consciously overcome my fear of their reliablity issues, I'd buy one. And therein lies the dilemna. I do not want the Bangled ones, and scared of buying the older models (whose style I believe are timeless) due to... well... reliability concerns. Who knows...

lexusguy · November 2005

BMW actually seems to be the most reliable of the German brands. Compared to some of the worst VWs, even the 7 series could be considered a reliability all-star.

ljflx · November 2005

Nah - I think Buick was his first love.

nvbanker · November 2005

"even the 7 series could be considered a reliability all-star."

You got any facts to back up that claim, Cowboy? Cause, my friends who have the 7 series' would tend to disagree with ya.

lexusguy · November 2005

Accoring to CR, the '04 BMW 7 scored "poor" (20%+ problem rate) in three areas, and "fair" in two. Everything else was rated at least "good", with four "very good" catergories, and one "excellent".

Compare those scores to the '04 VW Toureg, which earned a "poor" score in an astounding eleven catergories, at least half of which could be considered critical. Only three catergories were rated adove average (less than 10% reported problem rate). Compared to that, the 7 looks pretty good.

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