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Comments

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Oh I understand percentages versus absolute dollars.

    My prior arguments are based on percentages. And none of my arguments have been contradicted so far!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    We do it all the time......
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "My prior arguments are based on percentages. And none of my arguments have been contradicted so far!"

    Then you are missing everything that has been stated. I guess we can all believe what we want to.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    "As a loyal BMW customer, I have to admit, I would never buy one. Always leased since 1993. If I were to change to the LS which could happen in 2007, I would buy one....This car is as close to an investment as a depreciating asset can be!"

    Words of wisdom.... Dewey may do well to not skip this post, but I am sure he will bcos it doesn't jive with his version of things BMW. Reading between the lines in hpowders and ljflx's excellent posts, you can decipher that no one is saying BMW is not a great brand, with high retention of value, but to assume that Lexus is not as good in both areas is missing the point.

    'nuff said....
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Exactly. I dont remember exactly when it was that one of us Lexus owners claimed Lexus cars have the highest quoted residuals in the industry. I certainly dont remember saying that. I dont lease cars, so I really could care less what the "predicted" residuals are, when thats such a game anyway, that has little basis in reality. In the really real world, my '96 LS did very well in terms of resale, and I have little doubt that my '01 will do just as good. My '96 certainly got me a lot more money on resale than a '96 BMW 7 would have.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    If Dewey was right it would mean BMW was more interested in a high residual price and a silly award then it was in profits. Think about it. You are so popular that you can command full MSRP in a lease or buy. People are tripping over themselves coming into your showrooms. Let's say the market for lux cars calls for a residual after X years of 57%. So the closer you are to that market percentage the higher your profit per leased car is - since you are leasing at full sticker up front. So why on earth would you residualize a car a lot higher than the market percentage? You lose out on big profits by doing that. Residualize a brand that leases half of its cars at 5-7% higher than the market rate on a $50K average sale and you are passing up $2500-$3500 in profits per car. You have to be brain dead to make a business decision like that. If 500K BMW's are leased they'd be passing up a billion or more a year in profits. Meanwhile BMW profits were squeezed last year and the earnings were disappointing. Naturally BMW (or anyone) would enhance profits as much as possible. So the reason retention values are pegged higher is because the lease sale would be lost if they were pegged closer to market. So you either discount upfront and keep retention low or pump up retention and don't discount. It's nothing more than a pricing strategy. Dewey's point makes a lot of sense to a BMW fanatic and no sense whatsoever in the business world. Lastly I see BMW lease prices advertised nationally and locally on TV all through the year. That's the ultimate sign of a subsidy. Two and a Half Men had the current 325I deal in front of everyone the other night. I can't ever remember Lexus doing that on a car but I could be wrong. I never see Lexus lease deals in newspapers either. Different strategy to marketing/pricing is applied. It's that simple. Since both brands are very successful one could easily argue that both approaches are correct.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Down here in hurricaneland, the same ridiculously high 36 month leasing price on a basic LS is offered every Sunday in our local papers.
    They manage to call the promotion a different name every Sunday-something like $800 a month with a $5000 cap. cost reduction. Never, ever changes.
    I wonder if anybody actually bites.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Actually, I'd be curious as to what the lease vs. buy rate is for Lexus. I know that for most of the German brands, a vast majority lease. Do most Lexus owners buy?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Spare me the fallacy accusation unless you can prove me wrong! Make my day and prove me wrong!

    So it is all a question of BMW subsidizing their leases more than Lexus? I doubt that very much until you can answer the following three questions I posted yesterday.

    1) So you are saying BMW subsidizes their leases more than Lexus? Where is the proof that BMW subsidizes at higher levels than Lexus!

    2)Are you saying that Lexus has less future price risks than BMWs? I have never seen any evidence of this and would appreciate it if you can tell me where you learned your facts from!

    3)Are you saying that the high residuals of BMWs reflects their subsidies and not their popularity? Do you honestly believe that?

    The Bottom Line is the Following:
    It is more profitable for BMW to offer competitive leases than Lexus! Why? The primary reason is BMW's competitive advantage : The highest anticipated resale values in the industry.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Sorry Dewey - I've made more than enough posts about how this works. Given all my business experience and all the pricing strategies I've led in my career I'll rely on what I know and you can go on believing what you believe. Argument for argument sake is useless nor do I have the time or desire to play that game.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    All your posts did nothing to prove your "BMW leases are subsidized more than Lexus leases" ideas"

    But I will do likewise and no longer play this game that you yourself had participated in!
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Projections and Reality are not always the same !!! How 'bout real-life situations instead of a pie-in-the-sky, wet your pinkie and stick it in the wind consideration ?? Now, why should Lexicans head to an emergency meeting on this superflous award ?

    So what should I reply when all the Lexicans spout all the info about CR and their newest reliability ratings reports? Should I, too, say that those are only speculation and "pie-in-the-sky" pipedreams?

    I believe, in fact, that many Lexicans have fired back saying "CR bases those future reliability projections on past data." But talk about KBB and ALG, and you'll get the argument that "guessing those future projections is ridiculous." So does KBB and ALG (two unbiased and respected third-party sources) just like to make stuff up and make predictions based on their magic 8-ball? Do you think they base their decisions on anything factual from the past, or is it just their eager enthusiasm for a particular brand?

    You can't have your cake and eat it, too. What a double standard....
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    In response to yours, I'd just like to quote hpowders post made yesterday:

    "Judging from the BMW and Lexus leasing figures, BMW with its high residuals and competitive money factors and relatively poor long-term reliability encourages one to lease and Lexus with its ridiculously low residuals (totally out of touch with reality), rather high money factors (except in December, yes I remember!) and incomparable long term reliability encourages one to buy."

    Does that answer your question ?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Best way to find out is to ask a Lexus dealer. It would not surprise me if more Lexus people buy than lease.
    Lexus makes the perfect car to buy:
    Worry-free long-term reliability which is critical, and its vehicles hold their value among the best in the industry. You can trade your Lexus in 2-4 years and not have to worry about where the bulk of your cash will be coming from to purchase your next Lexus.

    BMW makes the perfect car to lease because for whatever reason, they absolutely encourage it:
    The highest leasing residuals in the industry. Free maintenance for the entire lease term. Poor long-term reliability. Those parts and labor costs become quite significant after that warranty runs out. No thanks.
    Even though I love BMW vehicles, if the only way I could have one is to buy one, there is no way I would do it. And I'm sure a lot of BMW drivers feel the same way.
    I have no direct evidence, but I feel pretty sure that the success of BMW has a great deal to do with BMW Financial Services' incredible leases.

    If the 2007 Lexus LS becomes the car we all hope it will be, then it may finally be time for me to "settle down" with a fine vehicle that I can actually say with pride, I own.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Can we get past this and get back to the actual marques?

    Seems like everyone who has a view on the ins and outs of leasing a BMW vs a Lexus has had a say, and it's clear no one is going to change, um, gears on a perspective.

    Let's agree to disagree and find something else more topical to debate.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Final Score:
    Alamo 10
    Lexicans 7
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Even though I love BMW vehicles, if the only way I could have one is to buy one, there is no way I would do it. And I'm sure a lot of BMW drivers feel the same way.

    After owning a BMW for 7 years, after knowing relatives who owned and not leased BMWs for the last two decades, I can assure you I am quite ignorant about this BMW after-warranty scare of yours!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I think a lot of people who have to have a BMW don’t worry about that stuff. I own. Cars are expensive and require a lot of attention no matter how reliable they are. Once I decide on a car I put any concern behind me, then play the cards as they are dealt.

    BMW’s free maintenance gives oil changes at 15K miles but I have it done at 7500. So far they haven’t charged me for the two additional oil changes. They also changed my brake fluid recently free of charge when they didn’t have to. I hear stories about unscrupulous BMW service departments but this hasn’t been my experience so far. Will I keep it beyond the warranty? Not sure. But if I don’t it will be because of lust for another car. Right now there is no other sedan outside an E39 M5 I would rather have. If there were I'd get it plain and simple. Can't get the M5 because my wife doesn't drive manual. I've often thought of replacing the Boxster with it but the latter is just too much fun. Porsche. Lordy, they know how to put their hand in your pocket.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Good to hear. Now I know at least one person who isn't leasing a BMW.
    Right now the only car I would buy without hesitation is the LS430 due to its incredible long term reliability.
    I myself wouldn't bet on a BMW's long term reliability, but It's good that it works for you.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I also did 2 synthetic oil changes per year for my last BMW.
    No charge for the extra oil changes, but they sure don't advertise it!
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    It is more profitable for BMW to offer competitive leases than Lexus! Why? The primary reason is BMW's competitive advantage : The highest anticipated resale values in the industry.

    That's not true at all. The lease residue for BMW-financial leases are set by the car maker itself. The residue does not have to reflect actual resale value at all. Think of this finacial engineering trick this way: the car company can lease out a 330i convertible at $50k MSRP with a residue of $30k, or lease the same car out at $40k MSRP with a residue of $20k, or lease the same car out at $100k MSRP with a residue of $80k . . . so long as the money factor is subsidized to near-zero, the payments will be exactly the same for all three trasactions. Obviously the car is not fetching both $80k and $20k at the same time three years later. There is a lot of room for financial engineering there, and indeed it is an important activity for car companies to engage in order to maintain marque value. In fact, if you thnk about it, it is almost the only reason why car companies need a financial arm at all: to engage in vendor financing, thereby lowering the true cost of acquisition without having to lower nominal selling price (which may upset buyers of previous model years). By doing so, the car company can also delay the adverse market condition by three years (or whatever the lease term is) before it is reflected in the accounting books. Usually the high rate of lease vs. purchase is reflective of the degree of lease subsidy book-cooking; after a while, the phenomenom show up in lower consolidated margins, as the case for a while now at MB, and starts to happen at BMW, too. The nominal price in a lease written by the car company itself is no reflection of true sale price.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I think a lot of people who have to have a BMW don’t worry about that stuff. I own. Cars are expensive and require a lot of attention no matter how reliable they are.

    I agree! Although it may appear at least in this forum that I am the only BMW driver on this planet earth who has justified his purchase with reliability statistics, I can assure you that is not the case at all. I bought and I will buy any car based on how it drives, reliability stats be damned.

    The fact that I keep on using reliability/resale stats to justify my arguments is because that is the only ammunition that can be used against those Lexicans!

    The car I am lusting after is a sport wagon. Unfortunately BMW does not believe wagons and power are compatible. I find both the 325xi and 530xi tourings underpowered. I would buy a 330xi or 550xi touring right now if they were avaiable at my local dealer. An A4 Avant does not excite me and the Audi S4 is priced like a BMW 550i in Canada( I would rather forgo the wagon idea and stick with the 550i)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    That's not true at all. The lease residue for BMW-financial leases are set by the car maker itself. The residue does not have to reflect actual resale value at all.

    What you are saying applies equally to Lexus and BMW. It is the subsidy component that was the source of our debate!

    You can refer to our prior discussions from today and yesterday for further riveting details since it would make no sense for me to repeat my point over and over again.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Is the difference in lease costs between a Bimmer and a comparable Lexus sufficient get the prospect to change brands?

    Or just change how he is going to acquire the brand of his choice from leasing to buying (or vice versa).

    On a side note, I'm surprised that a board full of such smart, savvy business guys is a board full of guys who lease or turn cars over rapidly. I would think that a savvy guy would ladder his cars (like his bonds) and have a family fleet full of cars of varying years, beginning say with a 11 year, 125K miles, s***box and ranging up to himself's daily driver. Sure, a 5 year old Bimmer might have some maintenance issues but they will be a lot less costly to fix than to reset the depreciation clock and pay another hit of sales tax. The people who I see doing well in this world do not have a driveway full of newish leased cars. Moreover, the affluent driveway usually contains a pickup or two.

    Speaking of retail "equity investment advisors" (see post a day or so ago), those with a 250K ride are telling anyone with a brain that they don't really have any good ideas. In other words, they bought the car because they had zero opportunities to invest. People like Warren Buffet would laugh all the way to the bank at the sight of an "investment advisor" in a Lambo. Interestingly enough, high net worth financial types (i.e., hedge fund partners etc., not retail advisors) in the Northeast, much prefer a chaufer driven Tahoe or Denali.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251

    I would think that a savvy guy would ladder his cars (like his bonds)

    ;)
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    What you are saying applies equally to Lexus and BMW. It is the subsidy component that was the source of our debate!

    In case you missed it, BMW Financial leases have lower money factors, and at the tail end of a lease, there is greater difference between auction returns and the projected residues by BMW Financial. These are signs that BMW has been subsidizing leases; also at the root of why BMW financial statements starting to deteriorate.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Is the difference in lease costs between a Bimmer and a comparable Lexus sufficient get the prospect to change brands?

    I for one would. Everything has a price. If BMW wants to give me a car for free, or nearly so, I will take it, assuming I'm not using the car for business purpose. Lease subsidy does come in here in a significant way. For example, an unsubsidized lease of IS350 (or even IS250) sedan can push over $500 per month. On the other hand, with lease subsidy, BMW 330i convertible can be had for a little over $500 a month. In effect, BMW is giving away 330 convertible at about $38k, not anywhere near the $50k MSRP. If you are in the market for a convertible and your use of the car can put up with some unscheduled service visits, the 330i convertible may just be the ticket.

    As to how one maintains a family fleet, there are a couple issues besides just money:
    (1) time. I probably don't have the time to put up with an 11yr old car with 125k miles, with all the attendent maintenance issues, especially unexpected ones, unless it is a collector's car;
    (2) safety. New safety technologies come up every few years. We all put a price on our own lives.

    For what it's worth, I think Warren lives out of a plane.
  • tiny1tiny1 Member Posts: 26
    Wondered if you guys could answer a question or direct me to a maintenance or troubleshooting forum...I have a noticeable "shudder" between 40-50MPH with my 2002 CLK55 AMG. Dealer has balanced tires twice with no significant improvement. I still have factory warranty for another month, but they keep wanting to go the balancing route. Any thoughts or experience with this? This is starting to bug me as it's causing a couple of squeaks to emerge in the dash. Can really feel it on the wheel and pedels. Seems fine under 40 and at higher speeds. Would appreciate any thoughts..

    thanks!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    In case you missed it, BMW Financial leases have lower money factors, and at the tail end of a lease, there is greater difference between auction returns and the projected residues by BMW Financial. These are signs that BMW has been subsidizing leases

    No Kidding!!

    Have I said that BMW does not subsidize leases? So what is your point?

    If you think you can win a debate by having the last word with pointless information then so be it! I will let you have the last word!

    BMW Financial Statements are deteriorationg? You seem greatly misinformed! Here is a link to BMW Group's Interim June 2005 and Annaul 2004 Financial Statements!

    BMW F/S
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Dewey - there were a number of financial reports recently that said BMW's results were disappointing and profits dropped. Maybe you missed it. And - I have no intention of proving those reports to you.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    A steering wheel shudder in a specific speed range is usually characteristic of front wheels being out of balance. If the shudder is in the seat, it’s usually a balance problem with the rear wheels. The problem is, if they already balanced them incorrectly on two occasions, I would be hesitant to let them make another attempt. But if you do I would make sure it is done by a different technician. It will obviously cost you extra to take the car to someone else. Are these new or old tires you are talking about? In any event the place you want to go on Edmunds is the “Maintenance and Repair” section in the thread entitled “Tires, tires, tires.”
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The car I am lusting after is a sport wagon. Unfortunately BMW does not believe wagons and power are compatible.

    Dewey, haven’t you heard about the M5 wagon coming next year? I think they have rocks in their heads. They would be better off leaving it to a 330, 530, 550 and even an M3. Based on engines and transmissions, I would prefer the RS6 and E55 wagons over the M5 Conestoga. But indeed, nothing would outhandle an M5 wagon loaded with a stack of sheetrock! ;-)

    http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103566
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    And - I have no intention of proving those reports to you.

    Now there’s a confident man with no desire to do an ounce of work on Thanksgiving day. I’ll give you a pass today, but come Monday morning I want the spreadsheets in full regalia. And, in your report I want you to go straight to the bottom line… the details bore me!

    ;-)
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Brightness, how did you compute the actual cost of a 330i rag top at 38K when leased?

    PS Warren actually leads a very stolid life (albeit his marital status was always curious). There are no computer monitors in his office and he receives no more than 12 calls a day. The antithesis of today's financial "advisor".
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Relative to the auto industry as a whole, the financials performance of BMW is doing quite well! I guess you are referring to the news item below:

    BMW said third-quarter net profit fell 6.5% to €448 million ($540.8 million) from €479 million a year earlier, hurt by the weak dollar and the revaluation of a Rolls-Royce convertible bond, as well as higher oil prices and other raw-materials costs.

    These are tough times in the auto market. Including for TMC which in its latest quarter saw decline in its operating margins !

    From Yahoo Finance Nov. 5, 2005

    Still, Koichiro Suzuki, senior investment manager at Sompo Japan Asset Management, said that investors -- who had high hopes for Toyota's earnings -- may sell the stock out of disappointment.

    "The fact that profits fell shows that costs were higher than expected. This is the same sort of pattern as Nissan ... The result certainly falls a little short of expectations," he said.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    But indeed, nothing would outhandle an M5 wagon loaded with a stack of sheetrock

    An M5 wagon would be my idea of a dream wagon. But the price tag hurts more than a sheetrock over my head, OUCH!!! :(
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Without its subsidized leases from BMW Financial Services, BMW would be a loser in the USA.
    Who in their right mind would actually buy a BMW?
    Just the thought of it gives me the chills.

    The new 2007 LS. Now there's a car I will probably buy!
    Sometimes, you just have to think smart!!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The new 2007 LS. Now there's a car I will probably buy!
    Sometimes, you just have to think smart!!

    Sounds very smart! But I prefer the lower IQ alternative!

    Thank God for those BMW-subsidized leases because now I can afford a BMW M5 versus paying the same amount for a unsubisidized lease on a Lexus ES330 ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    An M5 will not be reasonable on a lease. It will cost you at least $1200 a month and could be as much as $1500.
    Unlike most BMW's, there is very little wiggle room off of MSRP for the M5.
    The residual is 61% for 36,000 miles but the money factor is an unsubsidized 0.00285 or 6.84%.
    I got my 545 for only 2.4%.
    No help from BMW on the M5.
    Also good luck with the horrendous gas mileage of 12 mpg city and 18 mpg highway.

    As John McEnroe used to say, "You can't be serious!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    An ES330 can be leased for about $600 a month here in the states. Half the payment of the M5.

    As Ralph Kramden used to say to Alice: "Better stay away from that rum cake!"
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    OK , Ok I will confess as long as I can have access to those rum cakes!

    Confession
    I was just kidding about that comparison!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Lexus leases would have to be really bad for an ES330 lease to be comparable to an M5!
    The M5 is one of the few leases where BMW financial services will show you no mercy.
    If you don't have access to a track, I can't see anybody getting one.
    Totally wasted on the street.
    Imagine the thrill of being allowed to test one out on the Autobahn at 235 kph!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Who in their right mind would actually buy a BMW?

    Hmm, are you trying to provoke me, get me back for my cracks about lame BMW styling?

    Heh, heh… ya dirty dog…

    ;-)
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    It is more profitable for BMW to offer competitive leases than Lexus! Why? The primary reason is BMW's competitive advantage : The highest anticipated resale values in the industry.

    That's not true at all. The lease residue for BMW-financial leases are set by the car maker itself. The residue does not have to reflect actual resale value at all.

    First of all, it's "residual"...

    Yes, the final decisions on residual values are set by the financial institution. But ALG is the authority on residual values, and they set guidelines and recommendations for every vehicle on the market.

    Although you don't seem to believe, residual values do have an effect on resale values. When leases expire and the auctions are full of off-lease vehicles, the financial institution owns them for a certain amount. This amount has some impact on auction sales. This, in turn, all trade-in values at dealerships (since most look at auction reports), which influences KBB, Edmunds, and other car value sources. Although it isn't "gospel" and not universal, residual values do have an indirect impact (whether positive or negative) on most vehicles.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    Dewey - there were a number of financial reports recently that said BMW's results were disappointing and profits dropped. Maybe you missed it. And - I have no intention of proving those reports to you.

    Don't you love it when people just spew random, inaccurate information?.... I love the internet!!!

    Hey, did you hear about the latest report on the new Lexus GS and how a lot of people have died due to exploding engines! Wow, that is gonna kill resale value!!!!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Nope. Just don't trust BMWs' long term reliability.
    I don't mind leasing them every 3 years.
    I do not want to own a BMW outside of warranty.
    It's a risk I would rather not take.
    Leasing Bimmers. Perfect situation.
    Great car. No maintenance. No long-term hassles.
    New toy every 3 years to look forward to.
    Now if only they would pay for the gas...
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    So what is your point?

    I hate to repeat the obvious: subsidized leases make BMW nominal sale price and lease residue pointless as far as how much the car is actually selling for and how much it retains value. Like I illustrated earlier, a car that actually worth $40k and retain $20 on auction at lease end can go for $50k with $30k residue or even $100k with $80k residue; both would result in almost the same payment so long money factor is subsidized to near-zero as well. The car is not retaining 80% of its value after three years just because the car maker is making up ridiculous MSRP and residue numbers.

    The point is simply two fold: (1) your claim that people are paying up more for BMW is invalid, because subsidized lease make "sale price" meaningless without considering the money coming out of the pocket of BMWFS; (2) your claim that BMW's retain more value because their lease residue is higher is also invalid because BMW heavily subsidizes their leases.

    BMW Financial Statements are deteriorationg? You seem greatly misinformed! Here is a link to BMW Group's Interim June 2005 and Annaul 2004 Financial Statements!

    In case you did not notice, it is near the end of 2005 now. Bloomberg reported earlier this month that BMW saw its third consecutive quarterly profit decline:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aWuIJukMdeMA&refer=europe

    Notice, it's profit decline, not just profit margin decline! Huge difference!

    The currency exchange rate excuse is getting really old. The dollar has been increasing in value relative to Euro in the last three quarters, not declining! It just makes no sense to blame currency exchange if company finds it hard to do business with dollar both going up and going down. The real problem, IMHO, is that the lease subsidies from earlier years are coming back to bite the financial statements as the auction price shortfalls (compared to the sky-high residue) are forcing the upchucking of previously booked profits on phantom "sales."
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Nope. Just don't trust BMWs' long term reliability.
    I don't mind leasing them every 3 years.
    I do not want to own a BMW outside of warranty.
    It's a risk I would rather not take.

    It's a risk everyone is willing to take in the BMW used/resale market! If it is so risky, why are BMW resale values so high?

    I dont think a person who buys a used BMW has more money to burn in repairs/maintenance than someone who buys a new BMW, dont you?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    NOT a leasing discussion.

    Lots of good points have been made, but it is time now to get back to the makers and leave the leasing details for the other appropriate venues.

    Thanks.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    It ceases to amaze how you are not able to understand what was previously discussed about leases?
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