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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Heh! Heh! Relax Dewey. It was only an attempt at satire.
    Don't take it so seriously.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Heck, if I recall correctly, DC/MB has admitted that their recent earnings have been hurt by high warranty repair costs (including recalls) just within the standard warranty period.

    That's significant, IMO. Can you back that up, please?

    BTW, I was not referring to the service contracts which are purchased by the customer at various expiration terms, differenct levels of coverage and deductibles, but rather the included free maintenance sponsored by the manufacturer. Yes, it is sometimes more than an oil change. Even more reason to give it significance and credit.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Whoops! Toyota has recalled 75,000 04-05 Prius vehicles for the "minor" problem of the electronic control module causing the gasoline engine to shut down and dramatically weaken the electric motor.
    A one year waiting list for this?

    With GS exploding engines and now prickly Prius's, Toyota had better watch their back! :lemon:
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Heh! Heh! Relax Dewey. It was only an attempt at satire.
    Don't take it so seriously.

    Thanks for informing me! Now I dont have to look out for those two hitmen driving a BMW M5! ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Trust me. There would be no escape with that M5 after you!
    ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Why so combative a tone ? Maybe you haven't noticed this, dewey, I had stopped responding to any post from you. Why ?

    No I have not noticed! But I like your two step approach.

    1)Make an unsubstantiated claim
    2)If questioned about your claim then act offended and boycott the questioner!
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    No I have not noticed! But I like your two step approach.

    1)Make an unsubstantiated claim
    2)If questioned about your claim then act offended and boycott the questioner!

    Can you please provide the quote and the post where I made any CLAIMS of BMW's conspiring to engineer poor cars ? Where exactly were such CLAIMS as you so stated made ? I'd like very much to see such quotes, pls...
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Here you go! BMW is faced with problem free cars during warranty and bingo after warranty BMW can recoup their costs with maintenance! Why do you single out BMW when this applies to every single auto marque including Lexus!

    Or maybe BMW figures the car should hold up for the entire time of the *free* maintainance, especially since they are giving such a good deal on their leases. Then when the leases get turned in, and someone else buys the now high-milage car, the new owner has some maintainance to do, and they can recoup some of the costs
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Which part of that post CLAIMS any conspiracy theory ? Or was that something YOU read into it ? Maybe in your view high milage cars don't have maintainance issues like regular scheduled maintainances at 60K/90K/120K and beyond ? Are these high miles/services covered under basic new car warranties ??? Would any dealer service shop not recoup lots of money from these services ? Seemed pretty simple to me, except if you have to read other motives to my posts...Using BMW in the post was purely in the context of the discussion... My 99 LS cost me $1300 for its 90K mile service... That is not chump change, you know.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    There was some rumor about BMWs that you don't want to own one out of warranty due to repair cost. Well, why not offer *freebie* to lure more buyers upfront. Let the shmuck who buys it used pay for the real cost of ownership. I

    Let the schmucks pay after? So BMW owners are schmucks? OR does BMW view their customers as schmucks who have to pay big bucks after the warranty expires? You dont want to own BMWs after the warranty expires? So they are a money trap unlike all other marques? I dont know the answer to that but I do know that your claim is false!

    I called it conspiracy instead of being false to add dramatic spice to that Heinrich letter but certainly failed in that attempt.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Let the schmucks pay after? So BMW owners are schmucks? OR does BMW view their customers as schmucks? I dont know the answer to that but I do know that your claim is bogus!

    The real cost of ownership comes when any car hits high milege. Yes, I said shmucks who buys used car pays for the real cost of ownership. Isn't that obvious ? Oh I forget, I dare to mention BMW in the same context with shmucks... Ahhhh ! Got it. You win... Buyers of used BMW are not shmucks... Happy now ?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    If I used the words [non-permissible content removed] and Lexus in the same sentence I know I would not walk away here unharassed!

    I am very happy now, thank you.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    BMW is sending out a powerful message with their 4 year free maintenance plan.
    They are the only auto manufacturer I know who is doing this.
    You know MB would never attempt this. They'd be out of business in a year.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    If I used the words [non-permissible content removed] and Lexus in the same sentence I know I would not walk away here unharassed!

    But where are the conspiracy CLAIMS you were so offended by ? Now its BMW shmucks.... Hmmmmm !!! This is what I mean that you like arguing for the heck of it... I'm done.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Jaguar did indeed have an included maintenance plan on the '05 models, but guess what? . . . no more! Discontinued on the '06. What's that say?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Put any spin you like on this:

    FRANKFURT, Dec 7 (Reuters) - German premium carmaker BMW (BMWG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) widened its lead over arch-rival Mercedes Car Group in November as sales grew by 9.5 percent, fuelled by brisk demand for its BMW 3-Series saloon, data showed on Wednesday.

    Sales of 114,044 cars last month put year-to-date deliveries above BMW's level for all of 2004 and reinforced its bragging rights over DaimlerChrysler's (DCXGn.DE: Quote, Profile, Research) premium division.

    "We can already predict that we will be the most successful supplier in the premium segment worldwide for 2005 as a whole," said BMW sales and marketing chief Michael Ganal. "We are growing more quickly than our relevant competitors."

    Deliveries of its core BMW-brand cars rose by 10.4 percent to 98,788 vehicles last month compared to the same period last year, while sales of its Mini subcompact grew 3.7 percent to 15,171 cars. It delivered 85 Rolls-Royce Phantom luxury limousines, up 6.3 percent.

    For the first 11 months, group sales rose 10.8 percent to 1,211,177 cars, keeping it well on track to hit its forecast for unit sales to grow at a high-single-digit rate in 2005.

    Mercedes Car Group said on Tuesday that unit sales rose 1.2 percent in the first 11 months to 1,094,500 Mercedes-Benz and Smart brand cars. It did not break out a separate number for its luxury Mayback limousine brand.

    BMW brand sales in the first 11 months totalled 1.02 million cars, leading Mercedes-Benz at 961,600. In the battle of urban chic minicars, Mini brand sales topped 190,000 while Daimler's snub-nosed Smart was just shy of 133,000 sales.

    Sales at Audi (NSUG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research), the premium car arm of Volkswagen (VOWG.DE: Quote, Profile, Research), grew by 8.8 percent to nearly 767,000 unit sales in the first 11 months of the year.

    Have F-U-N!
    TagMan
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    I believe DaimlerChrysler has referred to this issue in their quarterly earnings releases several times, but I can't quickly put my hands on them, and I really don't care to spend a lot of time looking for the sentence. Suffice to say, for example, when they recalled 1.3 million cars in April, it cost them some money.

    Here is a quote from a JP Morgan research report dated 10/24/05 that references the issue ("provisions for product guarantees relating to earlier periods" - in finance lingo, that means setting aside even more money now to pay for greater than anticipated warranty repairs, which brings down current earnings):

    "Mercedes Car Group
    MCG posted a 3% increase in revenue, below our expectations, on unit sales up 6%, and a slightly positive currency impact, implying 3-4% mix deterioration consistent
    with the replacement of the S Class, flat E class sales and higher sales of the A and B classes. The €436m profit contribution includes a €60m reversal of earlier legal
    provisions, ie met consensus and missed JPM. Results were burdened to some extent by the return of provisions for product guarantees relating to earlier periods (€289m
    at group level, note 14b page 29 of the release)..."

    Hopefully that's enough proof for you. If not, perhaps someone else like ljfx can add some more references....

    But re BMW, an extra oil change here or there or replacing some wiper blades isn't going to have any significant effect on current earnings. Since at least 2002, the expense of things like "free maintenance" is supposed to be reserved for when the car is sold (FASB Interpretation No. 45). Of course, car companies can and do play with these reserves a bit to smooth out earnings, but you can bet MB didn't budget for the recall of 1.3 million cars when they were sold!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Here's even more testimony.

    The 2006 AUTOMOBILE MAGAZINE top industry honors were awarded to:

    * Automobile of the Year: BMW 3-series--The latest version of BMW's superior sport sedan drove off with this year's top award. The 3-series is a testament to BMW's commitment to excellence and to the company's long-term thinking. BMW has produced a car that is the gold standard for its class, something that all other automakers feel they have to measure up to. A car that continues to get better and better with every evolution.

    Anybody surprised?
    TagMan
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Here's my "spin":

    If the 3 series is leading the way for BMW, and the 3 is the car that is least Banglized (which virtually every reviewer has said) and doesn't have iDrive, imagine what BMW total sales would be if the 5 and 7 weren't as Banglized as they are, and didn't come with iDrive (or at least weren't suffering under the bad press the earlier generation iDrive received). Scary.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "Here is a quote from a JP Morgan research report dated 10/24/05 that references the issue ("provisions for product guarantees relating to earlier periods" - in finance lingo, that means setting aside even more money now to pay for greater than anticipated warranty repairs, which brings down current earnings)"

    Therein lies the reasons they killed off free maintenance:

    A - past expenses overwhelmed the accruals they set up so they had to go backward and up the ante for every (still) qualifying car sold since day 1 of the freebie

    B - The auditors could probably be called on the carpet that this resulted in an overstatement of revenue. So hence they would no longer treat future maintenance as an expense accrual but instead as a revenue reduction. Same P&L effect but you rather have it as an expense of course.

    C - the warranty accrual on every car sold would require an upward adjustment and could also be viewed as a revenue reduction going forward if the problem is viewed as persistent in the past.

    No wonder they are going for a price increase on the S. They want you to pay for their past mistakes and give you a bunch of marketing BS as window dressing.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I'll give credit where credit is due. But, no matter how great a car is, I will never support designing the trunk after a picnic table.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    In all honesty do you really think a young company that has blown past them (sales, quality, customer satisfaction, retained value, dealer service - and remember many who own Lexus dealers also own MB and other lux dealerships) in the largest and most profitable market in the world is not a key focus? Because if that's the case then they have managers who cannot see the future. That was certainly the case in 1990 and for the Germans sake I hope it isn't the same now.

    Did you read my entire post? I clearly stated that Lexus is probably the focus of everyone when it comes to quality and reliability. The problem with you guys is that you would like to believe the BMW/Mercedes are up all hours of the night having emergency meetings about what to do about Lexus. That notion is just plain ridiculous. Sure they think about Lexus, but probably nearly as much as you'd like to think they do. In Europe, you know where these cars companies are headquartered, they still think about each other, MB/BMW/Audi than Lexus because Lexus isn't even a spec on the map, yet. I'm sure the brand managers here think about Lexus/Acura/Infiniti a lot because of the things you've mentioned - never denied that. What I disagree with is the bs about them being obsessed with Lexus. Also, no Lexus fan will ever admit that Lexus is nothing more than a wannabe synthetic brand with the biggest case of envy in the world. I mean how ridiculous is it to constantly advertise your cars as being German in commercials/brochures etc. to fool someone into think they're actually German cars? The Germans don't do this wannabe stuff, yet Lexus fans probably think Lexus doesn't think anything about MB or BMW right? If anyone thinks about someone all the time its Lexus. Mercedes for 15 years and now BMW.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Typical comments from him I guess. I'm aware they're dropping it. This is what they have to do in order to convince those who think the system is faulty in every car out there - forgetting the fact the problem only cropped up in a some high-mileage German taxicabs. Most people wouldn't even know anything about the brakes if weren't for something they read and then ran with - as is done often around here.

    Lexus uses something similar and the complaints have been the same about feel, use etc.

    As for the Autoextremiest, you should read what he said about Toyota and their preaching about hybrids, equally scathing - which I agree with.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    No wonder they are going for a price increase on the S. They want you to pay for their past mistakes and give you a bunch of marketing BS as window dressing.

    Does that fall under the same BS that Toyota gave about "helping GM"? Funny how only German car companies give "BS" according to those on this board.

    Did it ever occur to you that the S-Class price increase could be because it is a better built car than before? Why is every single thing that Mercedes does is so wrong and/or bad for the consumer and just bs? Totally ridiculous.

    M
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Also, no Lexus fan will ever admit that Lexus is nothing more than a wannabe synthetic brand with the biggest case of envy in the world.

    Hmmm !! "Lexus is a wannabe synthetic brand...." This, I suppose is meant to get a rise out of Lex fans, eh ? Sorry.

    I mean how ridiculous is it to constantly advertise your cars as being German in commercials/brochures etc. to fool someone into think they're actually German cars?

    Lexus now mimicks German cars in ads? What is a German car ad like ? Is there something unique to them - makes them so German ??? Hmmmm !!! I suppose Lexus is designed like German cars, looks like German cars, can often be mistaken for a German car, and is named after a German car... Otherwise, its a German...err Japanese car !

    The Germans don't do this wannabe stuff, yet Lexus fans probably think Lexus doesn't think anything about MB or BMW right? If anyone thinks about someone all the time its Lexus. Mercedes for 15 years and now BMW.

    The Germans could do no wrong ! They don't do wannabe stuff like Lexus. Lexus thinks about MB all the time for the last 15 years....

    Do you seriously believe all these stuff you wrote here, or were these written out of anger at Lex fans? Just to kinda get back at them ?
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Do you seriously believe all these stuff you wrote here, or were these written out of anger at Lex fans? Just too kinda get back at them ?

    I ask the same questions when I see sales numbers given in which Lexus' sales are padded with an extra month or when I see bogus things written about Mercedes' systems failing and how MB invited journalists to come to MB and watch them botch a test of their own systems. I'm thinking does this person really believe this stuff.

    You obviously missed the point about Lexus and their German slant in their ads and no brochures (IS). I didn't say the mimic German car ads - big difference. They're trying to mimic Germans period!

    The point is what you and others have constantly tried to force the theory about BMW/Mercedes worrying and/or envying Lexus and the truth of the matter is Lexus is the one with the envy problems. BMW and Mercedes don't shoot entire brochures in Japan and pretend their cars are Japanese. What Lexus does is pure envy and wannabe - which is my point. They are just that a synthetic brand - made up during a Toyota board meeting in 1987. Even sillier is that someone else already had the name and Toyota had to switch from the original spelling they were going to use "Lexis" to "Lexus".

    Are you really going to try and pretend that Lexus didn't have Mercedes on the brain when designing their most prestigious car to look and act like a Mercedes? If you really think that then your bias has really run away with reason. Lexus' whole being was to take on Mercedes, and now they've switched to BMW only to come up short.

    M
  • chiefwejchiefwej Member Posts: 1
    I was a Fireman and I retired as a Fire Chief. My salary was right at 100k as Chief I'm now 62 and retired, so what kind of car did I buy with my pension? A used 03 BMW 540i 6 speed.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    But where are the conspiracy CLAIMS you were so offended by ? Now its BMW shmucks.... Hmmmmm !!! This is what I mean that you like arguing for the heck of it... I'm done

    Who is arguing for the heck of it? You or me or both of us?

    I believe most forum members here are here to discuss and debate their opinions. And frequently visit this forum just for the heck of it!

    Nothing wrong with that, dont you think?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Wish I could help you but I have never owned a BMW540i.

    May I suggest that you visit Edmunds BMW forums! I believe if I am not mistaken that there are forums dealing solely with BMW540is. At least over there you will be more likely to find someone who can answer your question.

    But what I do know is that the current Consumers Report reliability statistics on the 03 model appears to be bulletproof!

    An 03 540i is a hoot to drive and reliable! Sounds like a good combo to me!

    Good luck with your choice!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    It says too many repairs being brought in for free!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Huh?
    The BMW 5 series is one of the few automotive success stories in the past 2 years.
    You want to imagine how the sales of the 5 series would be without Chris Bangle's influence or the iDrive that any 9 year old could use, check out the 2003 5 series sales.
    Bangle + iDrive = BMW SUCCESS!!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Merc... I can’t believe you didn’t mention the IS brochure sooner. I’m still trying to figure out if it makes good marketing sense or is just plain ol’ tacky. In any event, it’s as wannabe as it gets and it felt really strange flipping through it, almost embarrassing. I can’t believe a car company who is positioning themselves on such a lofty level would resort to that sort of thing. It would be interesting to know what kind of influence it has. If I were a Lexus fan, I would take umbrage. Furthermore, I believe it aids German car branding and helps sell German cars.
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    If the 3 series is leading the way for BMW, and the 3 is the car that is least Banglized (which virtually every reviewer has said) and doesn't have iDrive, imagine what BMW total sales would be if the 5 and 7 weren't as Banglized as they are, and didn't come with iDrive (or at least weren't suffering under the bad press the earlier generation iDrive received).

    Before Bangle was around and before iDrive was even a pipedream, BMW sold more 3-series than anything else.... Those changes did nothing to the ratio of 3-series to other models. (BTW, the 3-series has iDrive when you get navigation.)
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well when I went to drive it they didn't have any brochures, and at the Taste of Lexus they didn't have any. I went to their website and ordered one.

    Anyway, I think it is just plain tacky. If I were Lexus' marketing folks I would shown the car in Germany, France, Japan, America and England - all the major markets for the car since they're launching or re-launching the brand worldwide. A great chance missed due to simply wanting to be thought of as a "German" car, IMO.

    A lot of people will not be fooled by such a tactic and like you say they may just go for the real item.

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    1)Here is a quote from a JP Morgan research report dated 10/24/05 that references the issue ("provisions for product guarantees relating to earlier periods" - in finance lingo, that means setting aside even more money now to pay for greater than anticipated warranty repairs, which brings down current earnings)"

    These provisions are applicable industry-wide. . Although I am not denying warranty repairs are not high for MB it's just that the portion of the JP Morgan report you posted says nothing about such expenses in MB!

    2)No wonder they are going for a price increase on the S. They want you to pay for their past mistakes and give you a bunch of marketing BS as window dressing.

    2)You are presuming quite a lot with your claim that the price increase of the S is directly linked to the " provisions for guarantees related to earlier periods"!

    Could it be that the S is a far more superior car and is worth the price increase? That sounds like a far more likely reason than yours!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Merc,

    Has Lexus not marketed their cars as Germans in the past?

    The only difference now is that the brochures feel more Bimmerisch than Benzisch.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Has Lexus not marketed their cars as Germans in the past?

    I'm sure they have, but not to this degree. This time if the person didn't know any better they would really think the IS250/350 are really German.

    I mean yeah they'd had commercials in which engineers from Germany, England and even Italy were shown driving around in RX330's like it was some type of revelation or smelling the leather like it was so superior. What I never understood about these ads is what in the world does a Lexus RX330 compete with from Italy or even England for the matter. Just plain old envy I guess.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    I would have figured repairs to be covered under the vehicle warranty, not the free maintenance. So where's the "hit"?
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It would appear that Lexus originally came along with MB in it's well-focused sight, and had lots of late-night meetings, and released the wanna-be copy-cat car. Yes, it was well-made and had a huge advertising budget from Toyota. The ads boasted features like heated seats and rain-sensor wipers, as though these features were incredible, obviously appealing to buyers that had never before experienced them in a MB or BMW. The price was reasonable enough, so the fire spread to the mainstream market. NOW, let's jump to TODAY. Lexus is grabbing wildly for more market share in all directions with an unfocused strategy, and this will ultimately cheapen and confuse the brand as it spreads itself out too thinly too fast. There can be no ORIGINAL focus for Lexus, as Lexus tries to FOLLOW the lead of BMW particularly and MB, of course. Those brands LEAD the way and Lexus FOLLOWS. That's a big difference. Sure, Lexus will throw a bone that's UNIQUE and special in some sort of way to APPEAR to be innovative, but it is TOO clear to escape that Lexus FOLLOWS BMW and MB. They without a doubt utilize industrial espionage and ANY tactic they can to DISECT the competition's cars, and try to figure out if they can build a better mousetrap. Not that there is something wrong with that, but it kind of sums up Lexus's strategy . . . try to build a better mousetrap that is in DIRECT response to MB and BMW. You can argue whether or not they actually build a better mousetrap, and that would be a different topic, because the point here is that they FOLLOW the leadership of BMW and MB and it's just plain obvious.
    TagMan
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Although I am not denying warranty repairs are not high for MB it's just that the portion of the JP Morgan report you posted says nothing about such expenses in MB!

    Dewey, you can use as many exclamation points as you like, but you are still incorrect. Len was referencing an excerpt out of my post #11776. In that post, I gave more of the original report, which was specifically a research report on DaimlerChrysler (not the auto industry), and this excerpt was specifically about the "Mercedes Car Group", which is the division that runs along parallel to the "Chrysler Group". Please read the original post and you'll see you are just wrong on this one.

    Sorry, my friend.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I based my conclusion on the information that Len posted!

    Thank you for informing me about your post #11776 which at least is complete! I should have read the prior posts more thoroughly.

    Also nothing has changed . I am still correct in saying that it is ridiculous to claim the S Class prices are rising because of the mentioned provision.

    Thanks again!
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Does that mean MB and BMW follow Ford's model T? Who cares who follows who? Come on, let's face it. Today is not your good old days. The company that cannot build cars that consumers buy will be out of business. Now tell me which company make more money. I bet you Toyota/Lexus makes more money that the whole car industry combined. Who is the leader in hybrid technology? Does MB, BMW or any German car company have a hybrid car out yet? Again case closed.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Those brands LEAD the way and Lexus FOLLOWS

    It will be interesting to see which brand the new Hyundai luxury marque will try to follow(assuming they will try to follow an established brand).

    Think of a high quality/reliable Hyundai Luxmobile with a separate dealership! Who will they hurt most? Could it be the luxury brand that wears its good reliability on its sleeves. I do think so!

    Ominous for Lexus is the fact that the Sonata is more reliable than the Camry. Going a step further it should not be that hard for Hyundai to establish the most reliable luxury marque in the USA and hopefully Canada. And let us not forget the LOW PRICES for such Korean luxury!
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    ctsang says:

    I bet you Toyota/Lexus makes more money that the whole car industry combined.

    ctsang, that's absurd.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    It's not absurd - it's true. Been true for years now. They make more than 50% of industry profits and there have been times when it dwarfed 50%. That's why Merc1 hates the sales issue but that's why it always comes back. All of your knocks are subjective. Cash and profits are as real as it gets. Keep on trying to put them down but be gad you don't have a competitor like them to deal with.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Direct competition or no, I saw more than a few RX300s (they dont have the 330 engine) around the Monte Carlo area. I cant remember seeing any other Lexus vehicle there. There was one Infiniti FX35 that I saw. In stark contrast to that, you literally couldnt throw a stone without it hitting a Cayenne, bouncing off and hitting the Cayenne parked next to that one.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    That's why Merc1 hates the sales issue but that's why it always comes back. All of your knocks are subjective. Cash and profits are as real as it gets. Keep on trying to put them down but be gad you don't have a competitor like them to deal with.

    Not true. What gets me is how you Lexus folk try to use sales and corporate success as the end-all to any discussion about cars. From buyers caring about what a CEO says and financial statments to let us forget about what the Lexus GM said about BMW because the GS/IS are selling. Its ridiculous. It is like a knee-jerk reaction to any and everything critical that is said about Lexus when when it comes down to most buyers don't care one bit about any of this and none of these companies (except maybe Jaguar) are in any real danger of going out of business.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Can't wait to see if this one comes true:

    "There will also be an optional 5.0-liter V-8/hybrid package. At the Tokyo preview, executives said the gasoline-electric powertrain will produce "an acceleration feeling of a different dimension." That's in line with what TCC had been told by recently retired Lexus General Manager Denny Clements, who'd been championing a line of hybrid performance vehicles. The first of these, the GS450h, was also shown in Tokyo . In 5.0-liter hybrid form, a senior American Toyota executive boasted to TheCarConnection that the LS will outperform both the new Mercedes-Benz S-Class and BMW 7-Series - a tall order that will be closely scrutinized. "

    Of particular note: "Acceleration of a different dimension and outperform the S-Class and 7-Series."

    I wonder does that mean just the 750i and S450 or the entire range of S-Class and 7-Series cars? Outperforming the 760Li and S600 and upcoming S63 AMG I can't see happening, but we'll see as TheCarConnection noted it will be "a tall order that will be closely scrutinized". If this doesn't happen look out for the denials and lets pretend Clements didn't say it stuff will start yet again!

    Either that or we'll get all types of spins on what "performance" means or we'll a long environmental speech about the one obvious thing that the hybrid will "outperform" the German cars in - fuel economy.

    Still no comment on the "help GM" stuff either I see. I guess that one can't be spun hard enough to make it legit.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    Acceleration of a different dimension

    Marketing people are often guilty of marketing hyperbole. I don't think marketing people that work for Lexus are that different from marketing people that work for other companies, including German companies, in that respect.

    Do you feel that German car company marketing people and company managements are more honest than their Lexus equivalents? How many times did MB execs say that they had fixed their quality problems and would soon be number one in initial quality/reliaibility? Well, I would say that since their initial quality still lags other German car companies (much less Lexus), then it ain't fixed. And we all know MB later backed away from their "number 1 quality" goal, saying that "American tastes are different so a German company can't finish first". Its rather funny that those pesky American tastes haven't kept Porsche from finishing #2 in long term reliability and BMW from finishing #3 in initial quality.

    So no, I don't think that we'll literally see acceleration of a different dimension .
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    So should I take this as your admission that Lexus execs are capable of giving BS also?

    Do you feel that German car company marketing people and company managements are more honest than their Lexus equivalents?

    Of course not, all car execs talk a lot of stuff.

    The only reason I brought it up is because some of your buddies seem to point the finger at whatever a BMW/Mercedes exec says and call it "bs". Yet when a Lexus exec like Clements talked all that stuff about making a BMW beater it was treated like word from up above, but since it didn't happen it is swept under the rug by some Lexus fans here. The same ones that told us to "watch out" and "get ready" like the earth was going to move because of Clements statements, which amounted to bunch of nothing, especially in the case of the GS.

    Lastly, the part about acceleration of a different deminsion may be hyperbole, but the part about outperforming the S-Class/7-Series is a very attainable goal, but I don't think it will happen. Saying one car will "outperform" another isn't hyperbole since things like that, one car outperforming another, happens all the time. Thing is the statement is so vague to the point it can be spun in so many differnt ways by the Lexus faithful, when such a thing doesn't happen. Similar to the remarks about the GS and then IS.

    M
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