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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    That's good lexusguy, because a little ways back I described my recent test drive and impressions of the Lexus. I gave the credit to be similar to what you just described and had some criticisms as well. I still think it was balanced, but not every Lexus fan was willing to accept some of the opinions and impressions about the vehicle (which were about the VEHICLE and no one personally, as our host has made very clear.)

    But, sure enough, here you are saying that no credit is ever given. It happened, my friend, and credit was given the Lexus where it was due, and so were some criticisms (of the vehicle, not any persons), so be prepared. It must have been a miracle and you missed it. So, check back on the posts (#11858, I believe) a couple of pages, read through some of the rest of the mess, and then you can restate yourself in a new post.

    TagMan
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    That's funny because no one I know fits that description and didn't you say a bunch of Tampa bay football players have it. Most people I know are in their 40's to low 50's and very aggressive people in life, and very successful. I'm one of them.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    True. There are some Bucs who admitted to having LS's several years ago.
    But since getting these cars, they had become complacent NFL LoSers over the last 2 years.
    Lethargic players driving lethargic cars.
    I believe the car made them perform on the field like er... geezers.

    They have a winning record this year.
    Must have traded those LS's in for BMW 545's.
    They are playing with more pizzazz!
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    OK, I’ll beg for forgiveness. But just remember, I have suggested this on many occasions whether here or in other Edmunds threads. Never confuse my own preference for cars with the personality, character and intelligence of the people who buy them or comment on them. The people really have nothing to do with the cars. Pardon me if I err and my words suggest otherwise. It is plain to see that you and many other folks around here are very interesting and intelligent people. If I didn’t think this was the case, I wouldn’t bother coming around.

    And that, my friend, is as serious as I am going to get! I trust you will forgive me, for whatever the hell it is that I said!

    ;-)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    That doesnt mean we've all forgotten how to drive, or that cars can be fun. I love cars like the E55, the 911 Turbo, etc. The problem with said vehicles is that I could use their capabilities... maybe 1% of the time, if even that. It just doesnt seem like thats worth the money to actually own one.

    Hmm, is it worth the money to have a Jag? Maybe you should consider a poor little ol’ Carrera. You’ll still be around your 1% capabilities threshold but will have cut the price just about in half. You can even get a 996 Turbo for nearly the price of a new rank-and-file Carrera. Lexusguy, there are plenty of ways to get your money’s worth out of a Porsche.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Thanks Len for capturing the essence of this debate so well. That just about sums it all up for me, including the CTS and Yentas (Designman has the CTS thing patented, I suppose, if not he should :)).
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    A BMW with the comfort seats and you will never go back to Lexus again!

    Which models have this ? And what is a *comfort seat* ? Bigger thigh support, lumbar support, or more beef in the padding ? BTW, my LS seats are plenty comfy for me. If they get any comfier(?) I'd simply fall asleep driving. Don't want that, being a geezer who drives an LS :)
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Ljflx, you know, despite your obvious intention, this isn't too far off. To expand on it, many a Lexus buyer would be in a Caddy or a Buick if Lexus didn't exist.

    Now, lets see the rest of your creative talents. Show us that you can bat from both sides of the plate. Let me give you a running start:

    "The average MB buyer is eager to make an impression. So eager in fact that in most cases he isn't even a buyer but someone who leases. He typically is a crass materialist, more interested in impressing valets and strangers at stop lights than he is in reliability, value for his money, or even resale. He is more likely to wear a gold Rolex Presidential, faux or real, then an Audimar(?) Piaget, when he shops for clothing he is very label conscious and would rather have a polo player imprinted on his dress shirt than a breast pocket,when he invests he'd rather buy a load fund through his broker than a low cost, better performing index fund from Vanguard, ...."
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "OK, I’ll beg for forgiveness."

    I was kidding of course. You know I love your posts, humor and great personality.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Blockisland guy - I can't agree with that decription because the people I know that own one or owned them in the past hardly fit that criteria. They fit my profile actually and simply always wanted what they thought is the best built product out there. That's also why they are so frustrated with the company because as far as they are concerned it's gone off track. I'd say the people I know also fit the profile of GaryH from everything I've seen of his posts. These are secure successful professional people or entrepenneurs and not wannabes. I do think all 3 brands, plus Audi and maybe Infinito to lesser extents have buyers who are seeking status and in that case MB probably leads the pack.

    BTW - I did recently ask my sales guy what kind of percentages lease vs. buy. He used to sell MB's and now moved to Lexus under Ray Catena's corp here in NJ. He said about 2/3rds of the MB's are leased and Lexus is over 50% but not as high as the MB ratio. But that's just his experience.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I would love to see a convertable LS..4 door with suicide doors...I had a 61 lincoln like that it was awesome.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    You see, I have taken the time to drive an LS430, 3 times. I know what I am talking about when I say the BMW comfort seats are more comfortable than the seats in the LS.

    Why don't you go to your local BMW dealer and check out the new 550 with the comfort seats. Take it for a spin.
    It could be a turning point in your life. (pun intended!)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    You had him groveling. Why mess it up? ;)
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You mean he was down in the dumps like Ralph. Homina, homina, homina. Must of threw his hands around and had that blank expression on his face too. Ah - you gotta love designman, what can I tell you.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    But today I was at the dealership as I took a new GX470. My old one wasn't due until next year but the low Dec-to-Remember interest rates allowed me into a new lease. My old GX retained real high residual so they actually wanted it back and were able to put me in a new one for $32 a month cheaper than I paid before. Again much higher residual rates going forward then were pegged on the Gx originally in 2003/4 in conjunction with high resale values on those model years allowed all this to happen. They iniated it, not me. But then I got frustrated because I go to pick a color and I find out almost every GX due in is already sold. I wanted white with ash grey interior and they were able to get it in the end. So now after this discussion I'm thinking back to this aging population of buyer the board speaks of and remembering that the cowd in the dealership today - and it was crowded, was all young people in their 30's, 40's and some 50's. I'd say the age you see buying cars is very tied to the demos in zip codes in your area and not a generalization of any type of buyer.

    OAC - The news on the 2007 LS is now known to Lexus dealership owners but not the sales people. Apparently some big meetings with Japan execs took place regionally and one nationally in Vegas. I'll see what I can find out from my source. But I do know the car we saw in Tokyo is high 90's percent wise what we are getting.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    but I have something to say. There seems to be a lot of talk about sales charts and how they validate the best car or car company. I'm a musician and I get this thing called billboard magazine. It tracks the biggest sellers in all genres of music. This will tell you that Mariah Carey, fitty cent {yes I spelled that right} and say Brittney Spears {don't care if I spelled that wrong} are the big sellers. Based on the aforementioned facts, will the Lexus guy who keeps harping on they're leading sales be listening to these artists in his select comfort bed err Lexus? :shades:
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Thanks Len for the update on the 2007 LS. The NAIS meeting in January should tell us a lot more about this car. It seems assured to arrive here next Fall. Of course if you find out anything more pls pass on. I should go to Japan next Spring and hopefully gather as much scoop as I could assuming we are still in the dark about this car by that time period.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    SoundScan charts the music sales leaders, VideoScan tracks DVD's and BookScan charts books. Billboard just has publishing rights to the music charts and when both they and SoundScan were independent they paid a fortune to SoundScan to keep their name associated with the chart. Trust me - I know the industry inside out.

    BTW - the entertainment industry are big time embracers of hybrids. From what I know many agents snap up the RX hybrid for their clientele and believe it ot not they've already deposited the GX hybrid and the LS hybrid this far in advance.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    So whats your point?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    If SoundScan drops Billboard for say R&R - they aren't the Billbord charts anymore.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Member Posts: 878
    Great, so are we listening to the sales leaders in our sales leading car? Point being, what sells the most is best= Lame mentality
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I had a similar situation with Designman over on the LPS board.
    He apologized as fellow raccoons should and all is well again.
    Woo! Woo!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The XKR and 911 are very different cars. The 996 was a hoot to drive, but the interior wasnt much better than a Chevy Cavalier. I recently tested a brand new Carrera S Cabrio, which was an absoute blast. Wonderful exhaust note, and the wind was quite managable even at 120mph on the highway. The Jag is pretty embarrasing by comparison, past about 80mph you really want the top up. The interior is much better than it was previously, but there's still the typical Porsche sea of identical buttons. The total abscense of any trunk space is also a major issue.

    Ultimately, the biggest difference is that the Porsche is a sports car, and the Jag is a GT cruiser. They really arent even competitors, the Jag is more in league with the Maserati, XLR, and SC430. Any nice day with some sun and a back road, and the Jag is worth it. Porsche's arent made for bumpy PA back roads with 40mph speed limits.

    Also, I've been buying my Jag convertibles at 3 years old, much cheaper than even the base Carrera. Used Porsche's actually hold their value.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    You guys all done apologizing to each other? What did you do to each other for goodness sake? I stepped out for a little dinner tonight, and when I came back you've all been making up like you just had finished a big brawl at the local bar!

    Did I actually read someone begging for forgiveness? What forum is this? I must have signed in to the wrong website or something.

    (Actually, good to hear a little harmony around the campfire)

    BTW, lexusguy, are you into Jags? Which ones?
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Blockisland guy - I can't agree with that decription because the people I know that own one or owned them in the past hardly fit that criteria. They fit my profile actually and simply always wanted what they thought is the best built product out there. That's also why they are so frustrated with the company because as far as they are concerned it's gone off track. I'd say the people I know also fit the profile of GaryH from everything I've seen of his posts. These are secure successful professional people or entrepenneurs and not wannabes. I do think all 3 brands, plus Audi and maybe Infinito to lesser extents have buyers who are seeking status and in that case MB probably leads the pack.

    OMG, I finally got back on the forums tonight after company left, and it has taken me forever to catch up with you guys. Some of the most vociferous bickering I've observed in my 13 months of posting here. Glad to see we seem to have calmed down a bit, apparently with only one post (at least that I noticed by the numbers) needed to be removed by Pat. Perhaps some of you should consider taking medication the next time the Edmunds server goes offline, so the juices will not be flowing so strongly when the servers come back up! :P

    Anyway, thanks Len for defending us current/former MB owners. I think you pegged my viewpoint on this nearly perfectly. Certainly anyone who puts down north of $50,000 for one of these cars has to be aware of how the cars are perceived by others. If you really don't want any attention and don't care about creature comforts, you drive an old Ford (like some really rich "old money" people I have known). You're much less likely to be carjacked in one of those! So "status" must figure into the equation for every buyer in this category, at least to some extent. But there are certainly lottery winners who when asked what they are going to do first with their windfall, say "I'm going to buy me a new Mercedes!" These folks are making a decision based almost entirely on status. On the other hand, people who test drive many of these cars, read magazines (from the auto ones to Consumer Reports), research online, etc., before making their final selection are likely putting pure status farther down in their priorities.

    But Howard, I don't consider myself a "geezer" either. Maybe a bit conservative in my personal values (after being a rabble rouser in the late '60s) and tastes, but geezer? I think even my teenage kids wouldn't call me that! But I would agree that someone looking to recapture their lost youth probably wouldn't find their satisfaction in buying an LS. But my 83 year-old uncle loves his LSes (on his third one now and I just persuaded him to wait until the '07s come out before replacing his current one), and I did have some misgivings before I bought my '05 whether it was perceived by others as a "geezer" car. However, when I went into the Lexus dealers here (around DC), I saw plenty of 40-60 year-olds doing the buying -- certainly not any older than the people looking at an S or a 7.

    The only thing I can say about MB buyers in the last few years is that apparently some of them were not heavy pre-purchase researchers. You can see some of their posts in the E- and S-Class forums here, which say something like "I'm having problems with my new MB and came here and see that other people seem to be as well. Is there a problem with the reliability of these cars?" Duh, just maybe! :sick:

    OK, enough of this. Time for this "successful, professional entrepreneur" or "geezer" (depending on who you believe) to go to bed. Good night, Gracie.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    My '00 XKR is my third Jaguar convertible. My first was a '96 XJS, followed by a '98 XK8. The '00 has been reliable enough that I've held onto it for several years. Unfortunately the all new LS and all new XK come out at the same time, tough decision.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    :)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Gary1.
    I was just having some fun. No slight intended.
    Heck-I'm not too far from geezer time myself!

    Even though I am a BMW fanatic, I am looking forward to finally seeing and driving the new LS.

    I drove the 2005 LS 3 times and had some reservations about the car-the driver's seat, steering, brakes and body lean.
    I look forward to finding out for myself whether the new LS is an improvement.

    I know it will probably be a big success stylistically as I am sure Lexus has heard the "Mercedes copycat" complaints loud and clear.

    Merc1 has already posted that he will be attending the North American International Auto Show in Detroit on January 8th for the WORLD PREMIERE unveiling of the new LS!
    I eagerly look forward to his first impressions even though Lexus will probably be keeping onlookers a "safe" distance away so they really will not be getting a good view of the interior (as they did when the GS was first revealed).
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Hpowers,

    if your priority is ride/luxury then I am sure you are going to love the new LS.

    If your priority is performance/handling then I am sure you are going to have a hard time saying farewell to your BMW 545!

    It is not a question of which car is better or worse, but which car is more suitable to your individual needs.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Point being, what sells the most is best= Lame mentality

    True, such logic is lame.

    The BMW525i is a fantastic car because it sells well? I dont think so!

    The pretensious Camrys and Highlanders with a Lexus logo are wonderful vehicles because they sell well? I dont think so!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Maybe so, but I still am eagerly anticipating the arrival of the new LS.
    I am expecting really smart styling here.
    I don't know about performance improvements, but I will be driving one when it comes out late 2006 to see for myself.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    If it's not possible to get back to talking about the CARS and MARQUES and leave the personal issues and snide remarks at the door - including our subjective "assessments" of what sort of person buys what marque - I don't really see where we have a viable topic anymore.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    by being away last night ...

    I'm here now and any post that talks about others instead of the cars or the marques is going to be (and is being) removed.

    If those posts don't stop, this discussion is history. We are not here to snipe at and insult each other nor are we here to make sweeping generalizations about any group of people.

    This discussion has a long history and has certainly had its ups and downs over the years. Lots of very worthwhile commentary has been made here and I hope it can continue.

    But we're not going to keep going down the path that so many of you can't seem to get away from.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    WOW, Could be a VERY tough decision. As you know, I'm not a big Lexus fan, only because the car hasn't excited me enough, but if the new one were more exhilerating, I'd be open-minded enough to give it a chance. From what I've seen so far, it might be very nice. I'm concerned that all the Lexus styling is starting to look the same across the model line-up. This happened to Mercedes recently, when the C, E, and S have all started to look a little too similar, except for size. Of course, the car's are very different beyond the appearance. The new S seems different enough, however.

    Anyway, the style similarity across the model lines is a concern. A flagship needs to be just that, in my opinion . . . a flagship . . . stand apart, definately in the lead.

    The all-aluminum beautiful Jag XK is a TOTALLY different beast. What would you base your choice on, since the cars are SO different?
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Agreed. Where one lives is often the best predictor of what they will drive. You don't see many Ford F150 KR 4X4 editions in 10028.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Cars and marques. We are not talking about each other and we are not insulting people on any level. Leave the people out of your posts, please.

    If you want to talk to me, email me.

    Thank you.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Interesting comments and got me to thinking about designs through any lux brands. So the magic question - is it better for each model line to be more or less the same styling of the others (BMW, MB, Audi and where Lexus is now going)or different looks (Infiniti and where Lexus was). I for one, am not thrilled that you can drop 70k or 80k+ on car and see a smaller versioned C-class, 3-series or IS that is a fraction of the price.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    EXACTLY my question! And this question is valid across ALL the marques. Shouldn't the different models of the same marque be more distinguishable from one another?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Most likely I'll be going for the LS460. Even the new aluminum XJ is losing $20K a year in value, so there's absolutely no way I'd be dumb enough to shell out $90K+ for a brand new XKR convertible. Cut to 3 years later, when its worth $55K, then I'll bite. I dont think my '00 R will last until 2010 though, so I'll probably sell pretty soon, and wait a few years before buying another Jag.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Well therein is my whole price issue on the s-class and why I think MB pricepoints can't hold. Retentions are awful and how long are people going to be burned by paying a fortune and seeing such rapid price drops. The reliabilty issue has cut the legs out of resale prices 3 years later on many cars. The key to long term price retention is reliability.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Went to a dealer's MB, BMW, Porsche, and VW car show here today (they had the new Cayman BTW). Great looking cars but a poor turnout when I was there. 25 cars on display and maybe 7 people (inclusive) were there. Went right after church - figured many others would do the same. I was wrong.

    I wonder, if this was a Lexus, Infiniti, Acura show if the turnout would have been better?

    Maybe not too many people want to spend $60-80K on a car.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    This is a conundrum... Create a *family* style or unique styling for each model. Personally, I'd prefer the latter, but the former may be far cheaper, and may be a distinguishing facet for a brand - instant recognition regardless of trim. I don't think the IS and GS are that similar looking, and hope the LS takes a cue of its own, though within the family L-Finesse styling. Already the *prototype* 2007 LS looks good enough, and distinct enough from the new IS and GS, that I am quite happy with it.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    More likely it's too close to Christmas.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    hardly wait to see the photos of the new LS from the auto show in Detroit on January 8th.
    This seems to be an American coup.
    Does anybody know if an American auto show has ever had an International brand model world premiere before this one?
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    What I'm dying to see is what they do with the interior. Cars like the A8, Quattroporte, and the new S have set the bar extremely high for interior quality and design. Lexus has their work cut out for them.
  • toddwwwwtoddwwww Member Posts: 1
    if this site for auto loans fine or not really then
    http://www.lynxtrack.com/afclick.php?o=1313&b=9dbfp3hy&p=3896&l=1
  • jjacurajjacura Member Posts: 807
    Do you guys know when the new LS will be on the street?
    Sept/Oct'06?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    When the new GS was released, I wasn't allowed to get close enough to see the interior.
    The car was roped off on a high platform and the doors were closed.
    Nobody from Lexus would open any of the doors.
    Exterior viewing only.

    One has to assume, the folks going to Detroit on January 8th will be disappointed if they expect to get a good view of the interior of the new LS.

    I don't get it. If you are going through the trouble of exhibiting a car, have somebody there who will open the doors upon request.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    What's going to be the appropriate inerior? Another area for subjective differences. There's the high-tech gadget and wizardry interior (more of BMW), there's the stately classic elegance (like Jag), There's the sophistication (like MB), and there's the ergonomically logical conservative, yet comfortable (like Lexus). You may not agree with my descriptions, but it's not easy to sum it up so easily. I guess my question is "what does make for a good interior in these cars nowadays?"
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi Everyone,
    I'm getting a real laugh reading some of the posts here..Bill Parcells, probably one of the best coaches in football always says, "Your Record says what you are.."
    The ultimate judge of success for any business is $$$. You can argue the whole prestige angle all you want, but it is meaningless if the carmarker isn't making money.

    I've seen plenty of posters dispute the notion that
    product X that sells more than Y is "Better." "Better" is a very subjective thing. Is a Jaguar "Better" than a Lexus? It probably has "Better" prestige, and they used to have better styling. How much would anyone wager that Jaguar would Kill to have Lexus' Sales Volume right now..
    At the end of the day, Carmarkers are in the business of making $$$. The more the Better!!!

    All this talk of Engine choices and Wheelbases makes me laugh..You can customize a Scion in probably 20 ways..Does that make it more exclusive than the LS430?

    We all know the demographics of those who own these cars, late 40 to early 50 making a decent six figure salary. Let's not kid ourselves into believing a potential LS430 owner is going to also consider a M5 or E55. Lexus clearly is not aiming for that market share, at least with the LS430..

    I've noted some of the Lexus PR targeting BMW. It's pure marketing nonsense IMHO. I think the GS was a big miss, if that is what they are trying to accomplish. Why equip the car with a Traction Control system that can't be turned off then? Why not offer a 6 spd manual? If they built Lexus cars to compete with BMW they'd alienate their existing customer base. I suspect this whole marketing campaign is mere hyperbole, much like their changing the Relentless Pursuit of Perfection to the "Passionate" Pursuit of Perfection.

    I saw this link on the web:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10387050/
    It ranks the most expensive cars to own in terms of depreciation. Notice how the list is populated with German cars.

    Someone commented that a $65K car should sell more than $85K car. This is probably true. But I did uncover a curious fact from the web. In the mid 80's Rolls Royce was advised to increase the price of their cars. They did so, and their sales increased. I think the "Snob" Factor was part of this. I do believe with a lot of these "Prestige" items Price = Better.

    I think we are NOT representative of the typical High End marque buyer. We are all passionate about our brands. Ask the typical surbuban yuppie about their 3 Series, and they probably won't know much about the technical aspects of the car. Ask a typical LS430 owner about DVD vs CD based Nav Systems and they probably wouldn't know either.

    I think some posters have hit the nail on the head when they said Image and Snobbery are prime motivators in the purchase of these cars for many. I feel this holds true for ALL the brands discussed, not just the German ones.

    SV
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